Why is there no "Disagree" Option for posts?

Shara_Wynn

Syldras wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

I get that English is not everyone's first language so just to clarify a few things.
Disapproval and disagreement are NOT the same things. To disapprove of something suggest that you actively dislike something. To disagree with someone is just expressing that you do not agree with their opinion.

I know that. But what would it mean, if someone introduces their guild, just that, and people hit "disagree"? What would it mean if someone asks the users to tell them about LGBT quests they've found in the game, and then he gets a dozen of "disagrees"? It doesn't matter if "disagree" isn't the right word, the intention is clear.

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Also "insightful" certainly doesn't mean that you disagree. The definition of insightful is...
"having or showing an accurate and deep understanding; perceptive."
So if anyone on these forums is using the "insightful" button to somehow show that they disagree with a person's opinion or their posts, then they might want to reconsider.

It's used sarcastically. As in "Yeah, smart stuff you've written there." = "What a useless stupid post."

And no, I'm personally not doing that, but I've seen people doing it. It was clear from context.

I know I asked for examples and was given them, yet the kind of toxic individuals you are referring to are equally just as likely to (and already do) post their disapproval anyway, whether or not a "disagree" button is present or not.

As for the adults amongst us, it would just save time and have a less cluttered thread were the option of "disagree" was available as a button, rather than a two word post.

Also, if anyone thinks the toxicity in these forums has in someway been solved or even lessened, simply by the removal of a "disagree" button, then I don't want to spoil the illusion... but then again, I clearly wasn't around when this button was available, so who knows, perhaps you are right and I need to amend my opinion of the average member of the human race

But I personally just do not think that the addition of a "disagree" button would affect either way, the level of toxicity already in these forums.

Araneae6537

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

Its still there, but now its called 'Insightful'. After 'disagree' was removed, it changed to 'LOL'

So they removed LOL, and it changed to Insightful.

So far, Insightful hasnt been removed yet. But if it was, I figure it will change to Awesome.

Probably best if they just remove all those options. They have no meaning anyway. Maybe just one single option for 'Agree' would be fine, people can either click it or not.

I disagree, and don’t find your post to be insightful (no offense). As far as I can tell, from how I’ve seen it used, most people use insightful as a compliment, meaning a post was helpful, informative, or simply insightful. They may or may not agree with it, but simply appreciate it.

Awesome is more complex in its application… By all means, everyone who disagrees with my posts should let me know my selecting Awesome if the post did not rise to the level of Insightful.

jaws343

There is a disagree option. It is called "Post Reply".

Syldras

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

I know I asked for examples and was given them, yet the kind of toxic individuals you are referring to are equally just as likely to (and already do) post their disapproval anyway, whether or not a "disagree" button is present or not.
As for the adults amongst us, it would just save time and have a less cluttered thread were the option of "disagree" was available as a button, rather than a two word post.
Also, if anyone thinks the toxicity in these forums has in someway been solved or even lessened, simply by the removal of a "disagree" button, then I don't want to spoil the illusion... but then again, I clearly wasn't around when this button was available, so who knows, perhaps you are right and I need to amend my opinion of the average member of the human race
But I personally just do not think that the addition of a "disagree" button would affect either way, the level of toxicity already in these forums.

Take the LGBT quest thread example I made: If someone writes a homophobic reply, mods can and will delete it. What are they supposed to do with a "disagree" used as a statement of disapproval of the whole topic? Delete the disagrees? Disable the disagree button for certain topics? I'm not even sure if that's technically possible with this forum software.

I know there are still toxic users around, I just think giving them a disagree button they could use for anonymous trolling would worsen things, outweighing the benefits such a button might have.

Jaimeh

What would be the value in that? If you agree with something (and you have no further stuff to add) it makes sense to have a corresponding button. If you disagree though then what's the point if you are not actually explaining why and what you would do differently. It's neither useful nor constructive, and it's lazy.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Anonymity brings toxicity and the buttons allow for anonymous posting. Look to reddit or other social media and you see it on a regular basis. I have a couple of friends on reddits I frequent that get piled on with thumbs down regardless of their post. The nearest we can figure is they "disagreed" with someone who took it personally and since then has been getting even. Since there is total anonymity there isn't anything that can be done.

I'll counter that with a professional forum I use to be a moderator on. We didn't have any rating or ranking system and everyone was required to use their real names. If you wanted to say something you posted to the thread. As a result the forum remained civil and members generally followed the rules. When there were occasional dustups they were over quickly and frequently handled by the members themselves without the need for moderator intervention. None of this would have been possible with everyone being anonymous.

While I don't think this forum needs to use real names it wouldn't bother me in the least if they removed all rating buttons. Require players to post if they think their opinion contributes to the topic at hand.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

While I don't think this forum needs to use real names it wouldn't bother me in the least if they removed all rating buttons. Require players to post if they think their opinion contributes to the topic at hand.

I have seen more and more players, on multiple forums, who want buttons for disagree (or upvote if the forum doesn't have it) so they can 'contribute' without actually contributing.

I also wouldn't mind if they removed the rating buttons. I can understand that sometimes you want to say you agree/disagree with something, but don't have much more to add to the topic, but I have always felt (and this is how I have seen them used) that forums are meant for discussion, which means if you don't have something to add to the topic, you don't have to.

It is okay to not add something to a discussion if you feel that everything you want to say has already been said.

Shara_Wynn

Syldras wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

I know I asked for examples and was given them, yet the kind of toxic individuals you are referring to are equally just as likely to (and already do) post their disapproval anyway, whether or not a "disagree" button is present or not.
As for the adults amongst us, it would just save time and have a less cluttered thread were the option of "disagree" was available as a button, rather than a two word post.
Also, if anyone thinks the toxicity in these forums has in someway been solved or even lessened, simply by the removal of a "disagree" button, then I don't want to spoil the illusion... but then again, I clearly wasn't around when this button was available, so who knows, perhaps you are right and I need to amend my opinion of the average member of the human race
But I personally just do not think that the addition of a "disagree" button would affect either way, the level of toxicity already in these forums.

Take the LGBT quest thread example I made: If someone writes a homophobic reply, mods can and will delete it. What are they supposed to do with a "disagree" used as a statement of disapproval of the whole topic? Delete the disagrees? Disable the disagree button for certain topics? I'm not even sure if that's technically possible with this forum software.

I know there are still toxic users around, I just think giving them a disagree button they could use for anonymous trolling would worsen things, outweighing the benefits such a button might have.

Your example is a little vague. What are they disagreeing with in the LGBT thread you are using as your example? What was the actual topic of the post? How does one construe a homophobic reply simply by virtue of the fact that another disagreed with a post on this thread?

Any post or thread that is trying to in someway address or highlight politics (and yes that would include the use of the singular "their, they, them") as it's main theme, has no place on these forums anyway, because then the initial post itself is in breach of the code of conduct for the forums.

Using disagree on a thread that is already political shouldn't be allowed if it's being used to anonymously show *** or transphobia however a thread such as that shouldn't even be allowed on the forum in the first place.

Does this thread actually exist so I can take a look and see what you are referring to or is it hypothetical?

Jaimeh wrote: »

What would be the value in that? If you agree with something (and you have no further stuff to add) it makes sense to have a corresponding button. If you disagree though then what's the point if you are not actually explaining why and what you would do differently. It's neither useful nor constructive, and it's lazy.

The point would be to stop two word posts that simply state "I disagree".

BretonMage

I think it would be good to leave unconstructive negativity out of the forums where we can. I've even been on a forum where there is a range of positive or neutral reactions: like, love, interesting, funny etc, and it's actually pretty nice that way. If there isn't much agreement with a post, you can see the lack of reaction to it, and that's good enough imo. If you disagree strongly with something, you can always write a reply detailing your thoughts.

I've seen reddit, and it's.. not an example to follow.

xylena_lazarow

Brigading. If you disagree just say so.

Syldras

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Your example is a little vague. What are they disagreeing with in the LGBT thread you are using as your example? What was the actual topic of the post? How does one construe a homophobic reply simply by virtue of the fact that another disagreed with a post on this thread?

I'll write a short example text:

OP: "I've just started playing ESO and came across a quest about a same-sex couple that I really liked. It was quest x in region z (add more quest info if you wish). Please tell me about other LGBT quests you saw in ESO, if you have encountered more."

What would hitting the "disagree" button mean in this case?

Of course it could also mean "I don't find this topic interesting" or "I found no other of such quests yet" (although why reply at all then?), but if you see a dozen of disagrees, how can it also look like, especially with no explanation attached? ZOS has made clear that they want a welcoming atmosphere, and that would go against that aim.

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Any post or thread that is trying to in someway address or highlight politics (and yes that would include the use of the singular "their, they, them")

How is a term used to talk about people whose gender or sex is unknown (or a theorized random person whose sex/gender doesn't matter) politics? This has been done for centuries and is even found in the works of, for example, Shakespeare and Lord Byron. It's just a shorter, more elegant form than writing "he or she".

Northwold

LGBT is a good example of a subject where a disagree or downvote option often ends up being used to signal more general disapproval of, for example, gay people where it is available. There have been a number of examples over the years on this forum that demonstrate that a number of users are rather less tolerant and kind than one might presume. The most flagrant example I can think of one or two years ago was a thread during gay pride that the mods had to take down wholesale and go through post by post because there was so much hate speech in it, phrased, of course, in very artful terms.

Disagree, downvote buttons get abused. We do not need them and that they would make life easier in some circumstances does not outweigh the problems they can bring. They invite online pileons. At least if people have to type something they have to make a modicum of effort (or a very great deal of effort in the case of the mental gymnastics necessary to justify bigotry).

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Your example is a little vague. What are they disagreeing with in the LGBT thread you are using as your example? What was the actual topic of the post? How does one construe a homophobic reply simply by virtue of the fact that another disagreed with a post on this thread?

I'll write a short example text:

OP: "I've just started playing ESO and came across a quest about a same-sex couple that I really liked. It was quest x in region z (add more quest info if you wish). Please tell me about other LGBT quests you saw in ESO, if you have encountered more."

What would hitting the "disagree" button mean in this case?

Of course it could also mean "I don't find this topic interesting" or "I found no other of such quests yet" (although why reply at all then?), but if you see a dozen of disagrees, how can it also look like, especially with no explanation attached? ZOS has made clear that they want a welcoming atmosphere, and that would go against that aim.

It could also mean that the person was upset about a possible spoiler of the quest in the post that somehow wasn't tagged as a spoiler.

But, as you said, there is really no way to know what the person who hit that button meant.

SilverBride

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Quite often posts are put up on the forum, asking for this or for that. If I disagree with what is being asked for, then it would be much simpler for me, and others, to just click a disagree button...

We already have this in the form of polls. I know not everyone uses a poll when asking for something but the option is there.

The problem with a disagree button is it can be used negatively against the poster rather than just the idea being presented.

ClowdyAllDay

Maybe we should have a vomit emojii option that we can press and put it right there next to awesome and whenever someone opens a thread before they can read it a huge vomit appears in the middle of the screen? How about that instead? Simply disagreeing might not be enough after all!

😻

🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢

ArchangelIsraphel

The point would be to stop two word posts that simply state "I disagree".

Why do we need a preventative measure to stop something that doesn't actually happen?

I've never seen anyone on these forums disagree without providing further detail. We're a pretty articulate lot. (And I like it that way, to be clear xD)

Two word replies are so few and far between that we certainly don't need to put a stop to them when they do happen.

Vulsahdaal

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Now I feel bad for the times I clicked on "insightful" because I really thought the posts were insightful.

Don't feel bad at all. I dunno why Vulsahdaal made that claim. But it's not true.

There used to be a disagree button, it was removed.

I see you have the same LOL badge I have, so Im a bit surprised you dont remember why the button was removed. Afterwards there was some debate here whether the new button should be 'insightful' or 'awesome'. Insightful had the majority.

Since then, I have never given anyone an 'insightful'.

But to those who say they feel bad for doing so, please dont. All this took place IIRC about 9 years ago. I think the majority of posters here probably werent even around then, so there is no way of knowing this. It would be expected for you to take the word 'insightful' as its standard definition.

And for those who were here then, as others have mentioned here, its a matter of context.

Even in my own posts, I can tell if the 'insightfuls' I get are disagrees or true 'insightfuls'.

But honestly, it doesnt really matter. Theres nothing to be gained or lost here, so again please dont feel bad about it. I doubt that many here even care about such things.

Shara_Wynn

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Now I feel bad for the times I clicked on "insightful" because I really thought the posts were insightful.

Don't feel bad at all. I dunno why Vulsahdaal made that claim. But it's not true.

There used to be a disagree button, it was removed.

I see you have the same LOL badge I have, so Im a bit surprised you dont remember why the button was removed. Afterwards there was some debate here whether the new button should be 'insightful' or 'awesome'. Insightful had the majority.

Since then, I have never given anyone an 'insightful'.

But to those who say they feel bad for doing so, please dont. All this took place IIRC about 9 years ago. I think the majority of posters here probably werent even around then, so there is no way of knowing this. It would be expected for you to take the word 'insightful' as its standard definition.

And for those who were here then, as others have mentioned here, its a matter of context.

Even in my own posts, I can tell if the 'insightfuls' I get are disagrees or true 'insightfuls'.

But honestly, it doesnt really matter. Theres nothing to be gained or lost here, so again please dont feel bad about it. I doubt that many here even care about such things.

So use of an "insightful" button as a means to disagree with a post seems in and of it's own, sarcastic and thus somewhat toxic because the meaning of the word "insightful" has nothing to do with disagreement.

That means that anyone using these forums who were not around, during that small time frame, have been using this button innocently, when in fact, it apparently now means something quite different.

Why on earth would the forum mods think that was ok

Anyhow, I guess there is no appetite for a disagree button. But at least I now know NOT to use the insightful button because it is a sarcastic use of the word and doesn't actually mean what it I thought it did.

You learn something new everyday.

SilverBride

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

So use of an "insightful" button as a means to disagree with a post seems in and of it's own, sarcastic and thus somewhat toxic because the meaning of the word "insightful" has nothing to do with disagreement.

I never knew of Insightful being used as anything other than what it means to me... that the poster learned something new they didn't know about a subject. If I use Insightful that is what I mean by it.

Shara_Wynn

Syldras wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Your example is a little vague. What are they disagreeing with in the LGBT thread you are using as your example? What was the actual topic of the post? How does one construe a homophobic reply simply by virtue of the fact that another disagreed with a post on this thread?

I'll write a short example text:

OP: "I've just started playing ESO and came across a quest about a same-sex couple that I really liked. It was quest x in region z (add more quest info if you wish). Please tell me about other LGBT quests you saw in ESO, if you have encountered more."

What would hitting the "disagree" button mean in this case?

Of course it could also mean "I don't find this topic interesting" or "I found no other of such quests yet" (although why reply at all then?), but if you see a dozen of disagrees, how can it also look like, especially with no explanation attached? ZOS has made clear that they want a welcoming atmosphere, and that would go against that aim.

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Any post or thread that is trying to in someway address or highlight politics (and yes that would include the use of the singular "their, they, them")

How is a term used to talk about people whose gender or sex is unknown (or a theorized random person whose sex/gender doesn't matter) politics? This has been done for centuries and is even found in the works of, for example, Shakespeare and Lord Byron. It's just a shorter, more elegant form than writing "he or she".

Because it was, as a poster on these forums complained that the use of the word "they, them, their" should only be used to describe plural individuals. They refused to accept the use of the word as a singular pronoun. That then derailed the thread into gender politics. Their post got removed if I recall (because it got political) but plenty of folk hit the "agree" button on it, which emphasizes the way in which the "agree" button can just as easily be used in the same manner that you are saying the "disagree" button could be used.

Syldras

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Because it was, as a poster on these forums complained that the use of the word "they, them, their" should only be used to describe plural individuals. They refused to accept the use of the word as a singular pronoun. That then derailed the thread into gender politics. Their post got removed if I recall (because it got political) but plenty of folk hit the "agree" button on it, which emphasizes the way in which the "agree" button can just as easily be used in the same manner that you are saying the "disagree" button could be used.

Of course the agree button can be used to support all kinds of negative posts (be it trolling, bigotry, harassment, etc). But first, the negative post has to be written explicitly - and as soon as they notice or get informed about it, the mods can remove it.

A "disagree" button, on the other hand, can target completely valid posts and the mods couldn't do anything about that.

DigiAngel

Honestly I think a disagree button would be good. Instead of responding with a paragraph on why I might disagree with something, I could just click it and drive on. Plus, good statistics on what the rest of the people in the thread would think.

Rowjoh

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Also "insightful" certainly doesn't mean that you disagree. The definition of insightful is...
"having or showing an accurate and deep understanding; perceptive."
So if anyone on these forums is using the "insightful" button to somehow show that they disagree with a person's opinion or their posts, then they might want to reconsider.

It's used sarcastically. As in "Yeah, smart stuff you've written there." = "What a useless stupid post."[/quote]

Really? always wondered why my posts get so few 'insightfuls', and rather ironic that I've awarded plenty on yours

Rowjoh

Syldras wrote: »

[quote=

It's used sarcastically. As in "Yeah, smart stuff you've written there." = "What a useless stupid post."

Really? always wondered why my posts get so few 'insightfuls', and rather ironic that I've awarded plenty on yours

Necrotech_Master

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

The point would be to stop two word posts that simply state "I disagree".

Why do we need a preventative measure to stop something that doesn't actually happen?

I've never seen anyone on these forums disagree without providing further detail. We're a pretty articulate lot. (And I like it that way, to be clear xD)

Two word replies are so few and far between that we certainly don't need to put a stop to them when they do happen.

the only times ive seen them usually are satirical/ironic posts as response to requests like this thread lol

Northwold

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Now I feel bad for the times I clicked on "insightful" because I really thought the posts were insightful.

Don't feel bad at all. I dunno why Vulsahdaal made that claim. But it's not true.

There used to be a disagree button, it was removed.

I see you have the same LOL badge I have, so Im a bit surprised you dont remember why the button was removed. Afterwards there was some debate here whether the new button should be 'insightful' or 'awesome'. Insightful had the majority.

Since then, I have never given anyone an 'insightful'.

But to those who say they feel bad for doing so, please dont. All this took place IIRC about 9 years ago. I think the majority of posters here probably werent even around then, so there is no way of knowing this. It would be expected for you to take the word 'insightful' as its standard definition.

And for those who were here then, as others have mentioned here, its a matter of context.

Even in my own posts, I can tell if the 'insightfuls' I get are disagrees or true 'insightfuls'.

But honestly, it doesnt really matter. Theres nothing to be gained or lost here, so again please dont feel bad about it. I doubt that many here even care about such things.

I gave you an insightful because I learnt something, for the avoidance of doubt!

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Tangent, but I’d rather have the UI tell me when I’ve already reacted to a post - bold the text of the reaction in question, or something. More than once I’ve clicked a response only to have the number go down because I’d read the post before and forgotten about it. 🙃

SilverBride wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

So use of an "insightful" button as a means to disagree with a post seems in and of it's own, sarcastic and thus somewhat toxic because the meaning of the word "insightful" has nothing to do with disagreement.

I never knew of Insightful being used as anything other than what it means to me... that the poster learned something new they didn't know about a subject. If I use Insightful that is what I mean by it.

I was also unaware…so I’m just going to go forward ignoring that interpretation. The people who take it as written will appreciate it when I give it, and the people using it to troll can get themselves tied up in knots about it if they want.

Northwold

Syldras wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Because it was, as a poster on these forums complained that the use of the word "they, them, their" should only be used to describe plural individuals. They refused to accept the use of the word as a singular pronoun. That then derailed the thread into gender politics. Their post got removed if I recall (because it got political) but plenty of folk hit the "agree" button on it, which emphasizes the way in which the "agree" button can just as easily be used in the same manner that you are saying the "disagree" button could be used.

Of course the agree button can be used to support all kinds of negative posts (be it trolling, bigotry, harassment, etc). But first, the negative post has to be written explicitly - and as soon as they notice or get informed about it, the mods can remove it.

A "disagree" button, on the other hand, can target completely valid posts and the mods couldn't do anything about that.

This is exactly the point. Using the LGBT example because it most easily demonstrates the issue, if someone posts a hate message, yes people can click "agree" but the mods will simply remove the post. They do an amazing job at making sure that happens.

Contrast someone saying "I love that ESO has such an evenhanded approach to representing gay people", with 20 disagrees attached. What, exactly, are the mods supposed to do with that?

Nharimlur_Finor

edited

Shara_Wynn

Given some of the sarcastic responses to my question of "Why is there no "disagree" option for posts". I guess my question has been answered.

Nothing else to say.