Healing, undeath and damage balance issues in PVP

Zyaneth_Bal

Although the nerf to undeath will address the tankiness somewhat the main reason for it is still healing being too strong and players being able to heal almost to full in a single gcd thus resetting the fight.

Nerf to undeath while probably achieving set goals will only cement 100-0 meta. Killing in 2 hits without any means of counterplay or going completely defensive until ultimate is ready is by no means a sign of healthy balance or fun gameplay in my opinion.

Undeath really was too strong but not on it’s own and there needs to be a way to deal with absolutely crazy damage that is so easily accessible now.
Currently it happens to be healing which, unfortunately, has gone out of hand. Provided you are tanky enough to not risk 100-0, players have 7k+ hps without even investing into it. Add burst heals that on their own can heal back to full in a single gcd.

In my opinion the nerf should either be reversed or we should gain some other sources of mitigation but healing should be nerfed significantly instead. That would bring up minimal ttk and would prevent players from being able to reset the fight in a matter of 1-2 gcds.
There have been lots of additions and changes since battle spirit was last touched. Perhaps it’s time for it to be updated.
Then health stacking and scaling will probably have to be addressed too.

post updated

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Sounds exactly like the idea I brought up in another thread.

Something like a straight 20% damage resistance when at full-health, this effect has a 1 minute cooldown.

Firstmep

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Zyaneth_Bal

Firstmep wrote: »

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Indeed, that is a big concern. With core issues untouched after losing undeath people will feel forced to build more tanky and the situation will ultimately remain more or less the same.
While ganking has already gotten out of hand as the only way to counter it is to build 40k+ health.

Zyaneth_Bal

Besides the one I mentioned in the original post, the ideal solution would be to nerf or rather carefully balance everything: undeath, healing and damage. To a different degree, of course.

Because lately free damage has been handed out very generously which resulted in time to kill(ttk) becoming as low as it can get if built that way while mitigation and crazy healing allows to easily survive “normal” all-around builds.

Ideally, proper balancing undeath, healing and damage should result in ttk growing while not allowing to easily heal back to full in 1-2 gcd and that would at least give pvp a semblance of actual combat.

ZDunlain

No one seems to see also how OP radiant oppression will be without undead hehehheheheeeeee (and many other executes)

Zyaneth_Bal

ZDunlain wrote: »

No one seems to see also how OP radiant oppression will be without undead hehehheheheeeeee (and many other executes)

Most just accept the popular opinion of undeath being the source of all evils

master_vanargand

If the player's health is within the execution range, they should die.
If you fail to manage your Health, you should accept it.
Undeath is set to be nerfed, so reconsider your other survival strategies.

Zyaneth_Bal

master_vanargand wrote: »

If the player's health is within the execution range, they should die.
If you fail to manage your Health, you should accept it.
Undeath is set to be nerfed, so reconsider your other survival strategies.

Absolutely not relevant to the topic

Bokila

Ganking literally disappeared in the last few years in eso. Everyone runs fully tanky builds, 40k+ with bunch of mitigations on top of that. When you say ganking you mean the few randoms around that can barelly hit each other, go for lame "gank wars" where each could hit a max 20k potential combo. Honestly, if you want to gank someone you would need at least 3 people to combo someone at the same time because the amount of tankyness going on right now is crazy.

Not to mention that gankers got nerfed while "face to face" nb has been improved. Yeah got 2k extra damage on incap and merciless(which is not even a ganking ability cause it's hard to stack) 40 meters detects? Destro staff dot detecting every 2 sec? Sea serpent coil? Esoteric greaves? Oakensoul nerfed? Caluurion nerfed (recently added some proc sets that would need to be worn at the same time to match caluurion damage)? Concealed weapon no longer provides dmg passively? Some strong dmg sets now require to be in combat so no more ganking potential? And on top of those mythics you want to receive mitigation when full health?

The change to undeath will differentiate the good players from the bad players because they will no longer be untouchable and that's a good thing.

Zyaneth_Bal

Bokila wrote: »

Ganking literally disappeared in the last few years in eso. Everyone runs fully tanky builds, 40k+ with bunch of mitigations on top of that. When you say ganking you mean the few randoms around that can barelly hit each other, go for lame "gank wars" where each could hit a max 20k potential combo. Honestly, if you want to gank someone you would need at least 3 people to combo someone at the same time because the amount of tankyness going on right now is crazy.

Not to mention that gankers got nerfed while "face to face" nb has been improved. Yeah got 2k extra damage on incap and merciless(which is not even a ganking ability cause it's hard to stack) 40 meters detects? Destro staff dot detecting every 2 sec? Sea serpent coil? Esoteric greaves? Oakensoul nerfed? Caluurion nerfed (recently added some proc sets that would need to be worn at the same time to match caluurion damage)? Concealed weapon no longer provides dmg passively? Some strong dmg sets now require to be in combat so no more ganking potential? And on top of those mythics you want to receive mitigation when full health?

The change to undeath will differentiate the good players from the bad players because they will no longer be untouchable and that's a good thing.

Seems to me like those few years ago was the last time you played pvp or you are a would be ganker yourself. Because 100-0 builds are thriving. You should read the previous posts.
First paragraph is simply wrong, there’s nothing to comment. Incap+bow crits hit for 30k+ against some 20-25k resistances reliably and that’s not counting other damage sources like procs, because tarnished and anthelmir both hit for sub 10k. As it has already been said several times people build tanky for a reason.

Detection potions last 16.7s with 45s cd, which is roughly 1/3 of all time. Not to mention that you don’t use it outside of combat and for it you might have to give up tri-stat for instance. And of course using a detect pot doesn’t guarantee a kill.
Ele susceptibility only procs once each 7.5s which is hardly any trouble for anyone who is familiar with basics of combat like dodge roll and break free. It will no longer reveal anyway. Caluurion and concealed nerfs are old and inconsequential as there are already more than enough potent sources of damage.

By advising yourself to use esoteric and sea serpent’s mitigation you only prove my point of players feeling forced to stack survivability.
Besides, to use esoteric you have to build around that and sea serpent’s is only used by some dks and even fewer plars, squishier builds can’t use it because usually they rely on mobility and los a lot for survival.

master_vanargand

The strongest Sorcerer cannot die from Ganking because they have huge damage shields.
In the end, you are responsible for your own death.
Instead of crying here forever, adapt to the new PvP.

Zyaneth_Bal

master_vanargand wrote: »

The strongest Sorcerer cannot die from Ganking because they have huge damage shields.
In the end, you are responsible for your own death.
Instead of crying here forever, adapt to the new PvP.

This is not sorc hate thread, this post is as irrelevant as your previous one

Bokila

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Bokila wrote: »

Ganking literally disappeared in the last few years in eso. Everyone runs fully tanky builds, 40k+ with bunch of mitigations on top of that. When you say ganking you mean the few randoms around that can barelly hit each other, go for lame "gank wars" where each could hit a max 20k potential combo. Honestly, if you want to gank someone you would need at least 3 people to combo someone at the same time because the amount of tankyness going on right now is crazy.

Not to mention that gankers got nerfed while "face to face" nb has been improved. Yeah got 2k extra damage on incap and merciless(which is not even a ganking ability cause it's hard to stack) 40 meters detects? Destro staff dot detecting every 2 sec? Sea serpent coil? Esoteric greaves? Oakensoul nerfed? Caluurion nerfed (recently added some proc sets that would need to be worn at the same time to match caluurion damage)? Concealed weapon no longer provides dmg passively? Some strong dmg sets now require to be in combat so no more ganking potential? And on top of those mythics you want to receive mitigation when full health?

The change to undeath will differentiate the good players from the bad players because they will no longer be untouchable and that's a good thing.

Seems to me like those few years ago was the last time you played pvp or you are a would be ganker yourself. Because 100-0 builds are thriving. You should read the previous posts.
First paragraph is simply wrong, there’s nothing to comment. 1: Incap+bow crits hit for 30k+ against some 20-25k resistances reliably and that’s not counting other damage sources like procs, because tarnished and anthelmir both hit for sub 10k. As it has already been said several times people build tanky for a reason.

2 :Detection potions last 16.7s with 45s cd, which is roughly 1/3 of all time. Not to mention that you don’t use it outside of combat and for it you might have to give up tri-stat for instance. And of course using a detect pot doesn’t guarantee a kill.
Ele susceptibility only procs once each 7.5s which is hardly any trouble for anyone who is familiar with basics of combat like dodge roll and break free. It will no longer reveal anyway. Caluurion and concealed nerfs are old and inconsequential as there are already more than enough potent sources of damage.

3 : By advising yourself to use esoteric and sea serpent’s mitigation you only prove my point of players feeling forced to stack survivability.
Besides, to use esoteric you have to build around that and sea serpent’s is only used by some dks and even fewer plars, squishier builds can’t use it because usually they rely on mobility and los a lot for survival.

1 : Incap + bow will never hit 30k unless you don't wear proc sets but damage sets instead and both abilities have to crit which is not a certainty and if you go hit a 20k damage gank (non crit) on a good player you're clearly gonna get melted by your target within the next 10 seconds. EVEN IF you could hit 30k it wouldn't be enough because most good players run 40k+hp builds. Can't even escape due to detect radius being so huge now. If you DO slot those proc sets your abilities damage will be considerably lower. In case the procs don't crit you actually will have less damage than wearing dmg sets so nothing unbalanced here. If it takes you 5 seconds to realise you're being hit it's your problem.

2 : 17 seconds is enough to kill a ganker. Hell, even under 5 seconds if your combo is right. As you said, 1/3 of time and then you have the detect dots coming in. Literally no way to escape. You mentioned rolldodging and break free. Those cost resources you know? Gankers got limited resources and can barelly dodge twice before they get melted. Caluu and concealed are previous nerfs but still BIG nerfs that can't be ignored in the big picture. Literally losing alot of damage while tanks kept adding to their health and resistance.

3 : You wrote this in your main post :
"At the same time to address ganking if undeath is being nerfed it can be changed instead. It can work similarly to sea serpent’s coil and provide a sizeable damage reduction while at full health. "

You clearly know there are items that counter the ganking, you probably use them too. You just proved that all you want is ganking to be extinct alltogether.

mook-eb16_ESO

From what I see in pvp already I see nb wrecking people all the time solo; let alone when they are teamed up, and its so quick you have no time to respond you are just instantly dead. I sit watch the same nb names appear in the chat as they roll 1 person after the next, from what I see on live its already not challenge to gank people. And when you look at nb bombing and the huge amount ap these guys are earning e.g look at the dc emp in greyhost eu pc; it's not hard to deduce that it's already overly effective. If you are talking about tankyness it's only warden, arcanist that are the real problem that's problem. You cant make 1 class king of all. All classes should have a nemesis.

master_vanargand

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

From what I see in pvp already I see nb wrecking people all the time solo; let alone when they are teamed up, and its so quick you have no time to respond you are just instantly dead. I sit watch the same nb names appear in the chat as they roll 1 person after the next, from what I see on live its already not challenge to gank people. And when you look at nb bombing and the huge amount ap these guys are earning e.g look at the dc emp in greyhost eu pc; it's not hard to deduce that it's already overly effective. If you are talking about tankyness it's only warden, arcanist that are the real problem that's problem. You cant make 1 class king of all. All classes should have a nemesis.

You didn't mention Sorcerer.
Sorcerer is clearly the king of PvP, so why would you ignore Sorcerer?
The most powerful Sorcerer have it all.

Deimus

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

Nerhesi

PvP needs to be normalized where we're not just jumping around forever trying to get lucky with burst windows. If you want this game to have a health, desirable PVP that is enjoyed by more than the 5% of us or whatever tiny minority currently play.. you will need some significant changes.

PvP resilience and has to go. Roles and classes have to have more of a meaning in pvp. If you're having a 1v1 that goes more than 2 minutes the core combat mechanic is still flawed.

Of course, these are monumental changes that wont happen because I believe ZoS is more afraid of losing the 5-10% of pvpers than risking actually making the game attractive overall. So with that in mind, I'll welcome incremental changes that make everyone less tanky and then continue to tweak. Maybe, at some point in the far future.. we will get to be an actual role playing game - where if you're playing DPS in PvP, you will need to kill in 30 seconds or simply run out of resources and die.

xDeusEJRx

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

xylena_lazarow

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere.

GOOD. If you want to be tanky, you should have to build tanky. Enough of this free stalemate guar dung.

West93

I played on plar without vamp 3 stage for years and people accused me of being tank while my only defensive investments was 3 reinforced heavy pieces and markyn, ~32k hp, 28k resistances frontbar buffed, was surviving just fine without vamp

Zyaneth_Bal

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

You are both correct. Some builds can deal huge bursts of damage and high health is of the more reliable counters to that. It just so happens to also offer intense healing with little to no investment (however it must be noted that health scaling exists for the sake of pve tanks not pvp, sadly zos refuse to balnce pvp and pve separately). And putting together large health pool, strong healing and abundant mitigation from undeath in particular results into immense survivability.
As I said before all-around builds struggle finishing off opponents who are able to outheal sustained dps. Which in turn leads people to 100-0 builds.
Thus we have two prevalent types of builds at seemingly opposite sides of the spectrum at the same time.

Again as I said in my initial post this is a complex issue. Undeath most certainly was in need of a nerf but there are other factors and consequences to consider.

Deimus

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

That's just one class and their hp scaling defensive skills besides most Wardens are already running around with at least 38k hp. Why do other classes build for at least 30k hp?

4 years ago most players in Cyro were around the 26k hp range before hybridization. As sets and skills became more accessible boosting character potential defensive stats and hp rose up to 30k to counteract that. With this change the same thing will happen with players adapting elsewhere and like so many things instead of looking at the cause they'll just blame the effect which is what the meta shifts to in order to counteract it.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying the root cause hasn't changed so players will adapt in other ways to the same effect which will cause more players to moan and cry for that to be nerfed as well, ad infinitum. Curing the illness by suppressing the symptoms.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Do people think cloak is the only way gankers can escape?

- Use Sithis' Touch and run away at maximum movement speed
- Use Shadow Image to teleport away

Zyaneth_Bal

The thread is not about any class in particular but about general pvp issues. Let’s stay on topic please

taugrim

I think it's a weak excuse to keep Undeath in its broken state, due to concerns that NB burst is OP.

If NB burst is OP (and I'm not arguing one way or the other), then nerfing an imbalanced passive in Undeath will make it much more clear which classes are overtuned in terms of burst.

You don't keep broken things which hide other broken things.

Twohothardware

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere.

GOOD. If you want to be tanky, you should have to build tanky. Enough of this free stalemate guar dung.

Yeah with Undeath you had players building "tanky" in mostly medium armor with all damage sets and putting all their points in health to really benefit from the Undeath passive.

Zyaneth_Bal

taugrim wrote: »

I think it's a weak excuse to keep Undeath in its broken state, due to concerns that NB burst is OP.

If NB burst is OP (and I'm not arguing one way or the other), then nerfing an imbalanced passive in Undeath will make it much more clear which classes are overtuned in terms of burst.

You don't keep broken things which hide other broken things.

You should read my comment 3 posts above

xDeusEJRx

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

That's just one class and their hp scaling defensive skills besides most Wardens are already running around with at least 38k hp. Why do other classes build for at least 30k hp?

.

Warden is not the only class this applies to, it's funny that needs to be spelled out. If you look at history since CP 2.0 warden is not the only class that resulted in high health gameplay Almost ALL classes have had high health based builds because the game keeps rewarding being a high health player. I quite literally alluded to that fact when I mentioned that "you get op shields, op healing, and op survivability" but since I need to explicitly state this, here's a bunch of cases where it's been beneficial to be high health and it's NOT because of "high damage:

Sorcs ward scaling
Arcanists ward scaling
NIghtblades dark cloaks scaling prior to the dark cloak nerf
Templar had living dark scaling back when it scaled off HP and damage, a lot of templars went the high HP route
Warden i've already explained benefit now because of high health polar wind

Only really Dragonknight and Necromancer have fallen in the group of where it wasn't beneficial to be running high health during those times.

I'm not sure why we're trying to lie as if Warden has only been the only class in history benefitting from being high health in PVP, this game rewards it for almost everyone.

It's a flat out lie to say that this is because of "100-0 potential", it's been happening since no proc in 2021 and the damage back then was no where compared to what it is now. This has only gotten more popular now, it has never been an now only thing.

LittlePinkDot

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

ZDunlain wrote: »

No one seems to see also how OP radiant oppression will be without undead hehehheheheeeeee (and many other executes)

Most just accept the popular opinion of undeath being the source of all evils

Undeath shouldn't have ever been mandatory. Good riddance.

Not saying there isn't other things they need to work on. But undeath was a crutch, and a plague on anyone that didn't want to ruin their characters looks just to be on a sorta equal footing with everyone else that's a vampire.

Auldwulfe

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Indeed, that is a big concern. With core issues untouched after losing undeath people will feel forced to build more tanky and the situation will ultimately remain more or less the same.
While ganking has already gotten out of hand as the only way to counter it is to build 40k+ health.

The problem is that both sides are self fulfilling prophecies ... gankers gank, because it is the only way to have a chance at killing a 40K+ health heal-o-matic player, while that same player is building that, to survive a gank......

And since neither is getting addressed, they will continue, and eventually, be the only two playstyles in the game.

Auldwulfe