Healing, undeath and damage balance issues in PVP

DrNukenstein

Auldwulfe wrote: »

The problem is that both sides are self fulfilling prophecies ... gankers gank, because it is the only way to have a chance at killing a 40K+ health heal-o-matic player, while that same player is building that, to survive a gank......

And since neither is getting addressed, they will continue, and eventually, be the only two playstyles in the game.

Auldwulfe

Listen friend. I am a ganker. I actually was the first on PC/NA to put together tarnished+construct. I run 27.5k health (cp) because I can (that is a low value just to be clear). When my fellow proc gankers gank me with their inferior ganks they do not usually crack my meager health hard enough for me, a glass cannon who also makes use of stat density, to be unable to recover. My favorite is to turn it around on them and then message them "lol what happen bro"

At the same time, I am able to global some players under some conditions for over 40k, and a ganker waiting to 3rd party will go positive every game.

How is it that the gankers built even harder into damage can't reliably crack me, while I can crack a player with 40k? It's simple really, it isn't just health. Health is a significant but not even the most significant ingredient of tankiness. The secrets are mitigation, buff/HoT uptime, clean breakfree's, sustain. Without all of these things working together to increase the value of your health/standing power, health is just a number. And if you are not keeping your buffs up, picking up cheap and accessible mitigation, and demonstrating reflexes then that's when you do need 40k to exist.

Auldwulfe

[/quote]

Listen friend. I am a ganker. I actually was the first on PC/NA to put together tarnished+construct. I run 27.5k health (cp) because I can (that is a low value just to be clear). When my fellow proc gankers gank me with their inferior ganks they do not usually crack my meager health hard enough for me, a glass cannon who also makes use of stat density, to be unable to recover. My favorite is to turn it around on them and then message them "lol what happen bro"

At the same time, I am able to global some players under some conditions for over 40k, and a ganker waiting to 3rd party will go positive every game.

How is it that the gankers built even harder into damage can't reliably crack me, while I can crack a player with 40k? It's simple really, it isn't just health. Health is a significant but not even the most significant ingredient of tankiness. The secrets are mitigation, buff/HoT uptime, clean breakfree's, sustain. Without all of these things working together to increase the value of your health/standing power, health is just a number. And if you are not keeping your buffs up, picking up cheap and accessible mitigation, and demonstrating reflexes then that's when you do need 40k to exist.[/quote]

I have a brawler built, non-vampire, NB that has cracked the 45k+ warden tanks... and I do gank, quite a bit .... usually hunting the other gankers, if I run with my guild ......

I am not looking at a specific, I am pointing out that in a majority of play, we have an arms race going.. and that these changes are only going to push people into the two camps that are already getting out of control.

Auldwulfe

Udrath

Undeath needs to be nerfed. Then they can balance certain abilities that do to much damage and healing without this huge defensive passive.

Deimus

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

That's just one class and their hp scaling defensive skills besides most Wardens are already running around with at least 38k hp. Why do other classes build for at least 30k hp?

.

Warden is not the only class this applies to, it's funny that needs to be spelled out. If you look at history since CP 2.0 warden is not the only class that resulted in high health gameplay Almost ALL classes have had high health based builds because the game keeps rewarding being a high health player. I quite literally alluded to that fact when I mentioned that "you get op shields, op healing, and op survivability" but since I need to explicitly state this, here's a bunch of cases where it's been beneficial to be high health and it's NOT because of "high damage:

Sorcs ward scaling
Arcanists ward scaling
NIghtblades dark cloaks scaling prior to the dark cloak nerf
Templar had living dark scaling back when it scaled off HP and damage, a lot of templars went the high HP route
Warden i've already explained benefit now because of high health polar wind

Only really Dragonknight and Necromancer have fallen in the group of where it wasn't beneficial to be running high health during those times.

I'm not sure why we're trying to lie as if Warden has only been the only class in history benefitting from being high health in PVP, this game rewards it for almost everyone.

It's a flat out lie to say that this is because of "100-0 potential", it's been happening since no proc in 2021 and the damage back then was no where compared to what it is now. This has only gotten more popular now, it has never been an now only thing.

I see you're Intentionally missing my point by erasing it in the quote well here it is again:

4 years ago most players in Cyro were around the 26k hp range before hybridization. As sets and skills became more accessible boosting character potential defensive stats and hp rose up to 30k to counteract that. With this change the same thing will happen with players adapting elsewhere and like so many things instead of looking at the cause they'll just blame the effect which is what the meta shifts to in order to counteract it.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying the root cause hasn't changed so players will adapt in other ways to the same effect which will cause more players to moan and cry for that to be nerfed as well, ad infinitum. Curing the illness by suppressing the symptoms. We'll see your post on the new adaptation in 3-6 months

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Indeed, that is a big concern. With core issues untouched after losing undeath people will feel forced to build more tanky and the situation will ultimately remain more or less the same.
While ganking has already gotten out of hand as the only way to counter it is to build 40k+ health.

The problem is that both sides are self fulfilling prophecies ... gankers gank, because it is the only way to have a chance at killing a 40K+ health heal-o-matic player, while that same player is building that, to survive a gank......

And since neither is getting addressed, they will continue, and eventually, be the only two playstyles in the game.

Auldwulfe

^ This is my point, they get it. If you don't like or want to understand my post this is the core of it.

Wuuffyy

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Sounds exactly like the idea I brought up in another thread.

Something like a straight 20% damage resistance when at full-health, this effect has a 1 minute cooldown.

Let's not do this. Please, please, please that will serve to make it worse. Undeath was a crutch. People will adapt but it will be far less "free" which is the primary point. Beyond this, ganker's "blew you up" in a way that made vamp far more obsolete unless you were a pseudo-tank meant to live long enough for your group to arrive to save you (ie you survive multiple ganks, etc.)

Wuuffyy

taugrim wrote: »

I think it's a weak excuse to keep Undeath in its broken state, due to concerns that NB burst is OP.

If NB burst is OP (and I'm not arguing one way or the other), then nerfing an imbalanced passive in Undeath will make it much more clear which classes are overtuned in terms of burst.

You don't keep broken things which hide other broken things.

It absolutely is! People that are arguing "gank" as a defense both do not understand the functionality of undeath in relation to 'ganks' and want to keep undeath due to its clear, overtuned tipping of the defensive scale with little to no investment.

Gankers use this even better as well. When you can't kill NBs despite a full damage spec, this passive is why.

MEBengalsFan2001

Undeath isn’t gone. The penalty to have it is almost null now and grants up to 10% damage reduction. IMO the passives should only be active when at the stage four.

Wuuffyy

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Undeath isn’t gone. The penalty to have it is almost null now and grants up to 10% damage reduction. IMO the passives should only be active when at the stage four.

Right, it was way too strong at vamp 3 and 30%.

Now it's near-free at vamp 1 and is still 10%. It received a rightful nerf yet doesn't nearly encourage "gankers" to come out of the woodworks.

What it means to me is that fights will end faster and be less forgiving when you don't heal (healing is still overtuned), block (blocking is way overtuned, in PvP), or roll (everyone rolls now, ugh lol).

xDeusEJRx

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

That's just one class and their hp scaling defensive skills besides most Wardens are already running around with at least 38k hp. Why do other classes build for at least 30k hp?

.

Warden is not the only class this applies to, it's funny that needs to be spelled out. If you look at history since CP 2.0 warden is not the only class that resulted in high health gameplay Almost ALL classes have had high health based builds because the game keeps rewarding being a high health player. I quite literally alluded to that fact when I mentioned that "you get op shields, op healing, and op survivability" but since I need to explicitly state this, here's a bunch of cases where it's been beneficial to be high health and it's NOT because of "high damage:

Sorcs ward scaling
Arcanists ward scaling
NIghtblades dark cloaks scaling prior to the dark cloak nerf
Templar had living dark scaling back when it scaled off HP and damage, a lot of templars went the high HP route
Warden i've already explained benefit now because of high health polar wind

Only really Dragonknight and Necromancer have fallen in the group of where it wasn't beneficial to be running high health during those times.

I'm not sure why we're trying to lie as if Warden has only been the only class in history benefitting from being high health in PVP, this game rewards it for almost everyone.

It's a flat out lie to say that this is because of "100-0 potential", it's been happening since no proc in 2021 and the damage back then was no where compared to what it is now. This has only gotten more popular now, it has never been an now only thing.

I see you're Intentionally missing my point by erasing it in the quote well here it is again:

4 years ago most players in Cyro were around the 26k hp range before hybridization. As sets and skills became more accessible boosting character potential defensive stats and hp rose up to 30k to counteract that. With this change the same thing will happen with players adapting elsewhere and like so many things instead of looking at the cause they'll just blame the effect which is what the meta shifts to in order to counteract it.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying the root cause hasn't changed so players will adapt in other ways to the same effect which will cause more players to moan and cry for that to be nerfed as well, ad infinitum. Curing the illness by suppressing the symptoms. We'll see your post on the new adaptation in 3-6 months

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Indeed, that is a big concern. With core issues untouched after losing undeath people will feel forced to build more tanky and the situation will ultimately remain more or less the same.
While ganking has already gotten out of hand as the only way to counter it is to build 40k+ health.

The problem is that both sides are self fulfilling prophecies ... gankers gank, because it is the only way to have a chance at killing a 40K+ health heal-o-matic player, while that same player is building that, to survive a gank......

And since neither is getting addressed, they will continue, and eventually, be the only two playstyles in the game.

Auldwulfe

^ This is my point, they get it. If you don't like or want to understand my post this is the core of it.

While I understand your point now, I only half agree with it, that players built 40k for a chance against gankers. I have a counter point: Gankers don't gank because it's all you can do to kill 40k, they gank because they enjoy ganking.

Most notorious gank builds that have been built in past few weeks are almost always proc gank builds, and they don't build it due to no choice, it's because people like proc builds.

Most toxic gank metas have been proc metas by extension, tarnished nightmare, caluurions legacy, flame blossom. thundercaller, have all been proc gank builds.

And as time tells, people enjoy doing Tarnished nightmare esque Gank builds, otherwise if they didn't enjoy this, people would probably be playing in No CP no proc, but everyone quickly left and stopped supporting Ravenwatch until they changed it in the new PTS.

I only think gankers keep ganking because they enjoy ganking and the enjoy the power of 100 to 0 bursting people with procs like Tarnished nightmare.

ToRelax

.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

That's just one class and their hp scaling defensive skills besides most Wardens are already running around with at least 38k hp. Why do other classes build for at least 30k hp?

.

Warden is not the only class this applies to, it's funny that needs to be spelled out. If you look at history since CP 2.0 warden is not the only class that resulted in high health gameplay Almost ALL classes have had high health based builds because the game keeps rewarding being a high health player. I quite literally alluded to that fact when I mentioned that "you get op shields, op healing, and op survivability" but since I need to explicitly state this, here's a bunch of cases where it's been beneficial to be high health and it's NOT because of "high damage:

Sorcs ward scaling
Arcanists ward scaling
NIghtblades dark cloaks scaling prior to the dark cloak nerf
Templar had living dark scaling back when it scaled off HP and damage, a lot of templars went the high HP route
Warden i've already explained benefit now because of high health polar wind

Only really Dragonknight and Necromancer have fallen in the group of where it wasn't beneficial to be running high health during those times.

I'm not sure why we're trying to lie as if Warden has only been the only class in history benefitting from being high health in PVP, this game rewards it for almost everyone.

It's a flat out lie to say that this is because of "100-0 potential", it's been happening since no proc in 2021 and the damage back then was no where compared to what it is now. This has only gotten more popular now, it has never been an now only thing.

I see you're Intentionally missing my point by erasing it in the quote well here it is again:

4 years ago most players in Cyro were around the 26k hp range before hybridization. As sets and skills became more accessible boosting character potential defensive stats and hp rose up to 30k to counteract that. With this change the same thing will happen with players adapting elsewhere and like so many things instead of looking at the cause they'll just blame the effect which is what the meta shifts to in order to counteract it.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying the root cause hasn't changed so players will adapt in other ways to the same effect which will cause more players to moan and cry for that to be nerfed as well, ad infinitum. Curing the illness by suppressing the symptoms. We'll see your post on the new adaptation in 3-6 months

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Indeed, that is a big concern. With core issues untouched after losing undeath people will feel forced to build more tanky and the situation will ultimately remain more or less the same.
While ganking has already gotten out of hand as the only way to counter it is to build 40k+ health.

The problem is that both sides are self fulfilling prophecies ... gankers gank, because it is the only way to have a chance at killing a 40K+ health heal-o-matic player, while that same player is building that, to survive a gank......

And since neither is getting addressed, they will continue, and eventually, be the only two playstyles in the game.

Auldwulfe

^ This is my point, they get it. If you don't like or want to understand my post this is the core of it.

[...]

And as time tells, people enjoy doing Tarnished nightmare esque Gank builds, otherwise if they didn't enjoy this, people would probably be playing in No CP no proc, but everyone quickly left and stopped supporting Ravenwatch until they changed it in the new PTS.

I only think gankers keep ganking because they enjoy ganking and the enjoy the power of 100 to 0 bursting people with procs like Tarnished nightmare.

The lack of ganking proc builds is most definitely not the reason Ravenwatch is low population.

MEBengalsFan2001

Wuuffyy wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Undeath isn’t gone. The penalty to have it is almost null now and grants up to 10% damage reduction. IMO the passives should only be active when at the stage four.

Right, it was way too strong at vamp 3 and 30%.

Now it's near-free at vamp 1 and is still 10%. It received a rightful nerf yet doesn't nearly encourage "gankers" to come out of the woodworks.

What it means to me is that fights will end faster and be less forgiving when you don't heal (healing is still overtuned), block (blocking is way overtuned, in PvP), or roll (everyone rolls now, ugh lol).

This means gear sets like swift and pariah will be used more regularly and some builds will be giving up the second damage set as now they lost a possible 20% damage reduction.

xDeusEJRx

ToRelax wrote: »

.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

That's just one class and their hp scaling defensive skills besides most Wardens are already running around with at least 38k hp. Why do other classes build for at least 30k hp?

.

Warden is not the only class this applies to, it's funny that needs to be spelled out. If you look at history since CP 2.0 warden is not the only class that resulted in high health gameplay Almost ALL classes have had high health based builds because the game keeps rewarding being a high health player. I quite literally alluded to that fact when I mentioned that "you get op shields, op healing, and op survivability" but since I need to explicitly state this, here's a bunch of cases where it's been beneficial to be high health and it's NOT because of "high damage:

Sorcs ward scaling
Arcanists ward scaling
NIghtblades dark cloaks scaling prior to the dark cloak nerf
Templar had living dark scaling back when it scaled off HP and damage, a lot of templars went the high HP route
Warden i've already explained benefit now because of high health polar wind

Only really Dragonknight and Necromancer have fallen in the group of where it wasn't beneficial to be running high health during those times.

I'm not sure why we're trying to lie as if Warden has only been the only class in history benefitting from being high health in PVP, this game rewards it for almost everyone.

It's a flat out lie to say that this is because of "100-0 potential", it's been happening since no proc in 2021 and the damage back then was no where compared to what it is now. This has only gotten more popular now, it has never been an now only thing.

I see you're Intentionally missing my point by erasing it in the quote well here it is again:

4 years ago most players in Cyro were around the 26k hp range before hybridization. As sets and skills became more accessible boosting character potential defensive stats and hp rose up to 30k to counteract that. With this change the same thing will happen with players adapting elsewhere and like so many things instead of looking at the cause they'll just blame the effect which is what the meta shifts to in order to counteract it.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying the root cause hasn't changed so players will adapt in other ways to the same effect which will cause more players to moan and cry for that to be nerfed as well, ad infinitum. Curing the illness by suppressing the symptoms. We'll see your post on the new adaptation in 3-6 months

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Indeed, that is a big concern. With core issues untouched after losing undeath people will feel forced to build more tanky and the situation will ultimately remain more or less the same.
While ganking has already gotten out of hand as the only way to counter it is to build 40k+ health.

The problem is that both sides are self fulfilling prophecies ... gankers gank, because it is the only way to have a chance at killing a 40K+ health heal-o-matic player, while that same player is building that, to survive a gank......

And since neither is getting addressed, they will continue, and eventually, be the only two playstyles in the game.

Auldwulfe

^ This is my point, they get it. If you don't like or want to understand my post this is the core of it.

[...]

And as time tells, people enjoy doing Tarnished nightmare esque Gank builds, otherwise if they didn't enjoy this, people would probably be playing in No CP no proc, but everyone quickly left and stopped supporting Ravenwatch until they changed it in the new PTS.

I only think gankers keep ganking because they enjoy ganking and the enjoy the power of 100 to 0 bursting people with procs like Tarnished nightmare.

The lack of ganking proc builds is most definitely not the reason Ravenwatch is low population.

That's not what I was implying you were reading too much into that , I was saying if people really didn't want to be a ganker as a DD and protested that way of playing, you would probably more likely see them leave proc PVP. Of course there's more than one reason RW is dead(but that isn't really the point I was making).

But you see no one saying anything like "i'm playing ravenwatch because theres no toxic proc gankers " or "i don't enjoy proc gank PVP meta". It's not that people are fed up with proc gank metas, it's quite opposite, people love the power it gives.

Wuuffyy

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Undeath isn’t gone. The penalty to have it is almost null now and grants up to 10% damage reduction. IMO the passives should only be active when at the stage four.

Right, it was way too strong at vamp 3 and 30%.

Now it's near-free at vamp 1 and is still 10%. It received a rightful nerf yet doesn't nearly encourage "gankers" to come out of the woodworks.

What it means to me is that fights will end faster and be less forgiving when you don't heal (healing is still overtuned), block (blocking is way overtuned, in PvP), or roll (everyone rolls now, ugh lol).

This means gear sets like swift and pariah will be used more regularly and some builds will be giving up the second damage set as now they lost a possible 20% damage reduction.

Good! No one is complaining about trade-offs here. I'm know I'm being direct but that's how an MMO should work.

ToRelax

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

That's just one class and their hp scaling defensive skills besides most Wardens are already running around with at least 38k hp. Why do other classes build for at least 30k hp?

.

Warden is not the only class this applies to, it's funny that needs to be spelled out. If you look at history since CP 2.0 warden is not the only class that resulted in high health gameplay Almost ALL classes have had high health based builds because the game keeps rewarding being a high health player. I quite literally alluded to that fact when I mentioned that "you get op shields, op healing, and op survivability" but since I need to explicitly state this, here's a bunch of cases where it's been beneficial to be high health and it's NOT because of "high damage:

Sorcs ward scaling
Arcanists ward scaling
NIghtblades dark cloaks scaling prior to the dark cloak nerf
Templar had living dark scaling back when it scaled off HP and damage, a lot of templars went the high HP route
Warden i've already explained benefit now because of high health polar wind

Only really Dragonknight and Necromancer have fallen in the group of where it wasn't beneficial to be running high health during those times.

I'm not sure why we're trying to lie as if Warden has only been the only class in history benefitting from being high health in PVP, this game rewards it for almost everyone.

It's a flat out lie to say that this is because of "100-0 potential", it's been happening since no proc in 2021 and the damage back then was no where compared to what it is now. This has only gotten more popular now, it has never been an now only thing.

I see you're Intentionally missing my point by erasing it in the quote well here it is again:

4 years ago most players in Cyro were around the 26k hp range before hybridization. As sets and skills became more accessible boosting character potential defensive stats and hp rose up to 30k to counteract that. With this change the same thing will happen with players adapting elsewhere and like so many things instead of looking at the cause they'll just blame the effect which is what the meta shifts to in order to counteract it.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying the root cause hasn't changed so players will adapt in other ways to the same effect which will cause more players to moan and cry for that to be nerfed as well, ad infinitum. Curing the illness by suppressing the symptoms. We'll see your post on the new adaptation in 3-6 months

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Indeed, that is a big concern. With core issues untouched after losing undeath people will feel forced to build more tanky and the situation will ultimately remain more or less the same.
While ganking has already gotten out of hand as the only way to counter it is to build 40k+ health.

The problem is that both sides are self fulfilling prophecies ... gankers gank, because it is the only way to have a chance at killing a 40K+ health heal-o-matic player, while that same player is building that, to survive a gank......

And since neither is getting addressed, they will continue, and eventually, be the only two playstyles in the game.

Auldwulfe

^ This is my point, they get it. If you don't like or want to understand my post this is the core of it.

[...]

And as time tells, people enjoy doing Tarnished nightmare esque Gank builds, otherwise if they didn't enjoy this, people would probably be playing in No CP no proc, but everyone quickly left and stopped supporting Ravenwatch until they changed it in the new PTS.

I only think gankers keep ganking because they enjoy ganking and the enjoy the power of 100 to 0 bursting people with procs like Tarnished nightmare.

The lack of ganking proc builds is most definitely not the reason Ravenwatch is low population.

That's not what I was implying you were reading too much into that , I was saying if people really didn't want to be a ganker as a DD and protested that way of playing, you would probably more likely see them leave proc PVP. Of course there's more than one reason RW is dead(but that isn't really the point I was making).

But you see no one saying anything like "i'm playing ravenwatch because theres no toxic proc gankers " or "i don't enjoy proc gank PVP meta". It's not that people are fed up with proc gank metas, it's quite opposite, people love the power it gives.

But I do see people saying those things. It's a nigh universal reason I see players give for playing Ravenwatch, along with lack of zergballs. And the most common reason people give me for interest in playing there, even when they don't. There are other reasons RW has few players - because this isn't one of them.

Zyaneth_Bal

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

This will only lead to people building more hp, armor, and mitigation elsewhere. Getting ganked or bombed without being able to respond is the biggest reason people build tanky. I'm sure you've all heard "If you're under 30k hp you are fuel for the bomb" now without that mitigation it will go up to 35K or 40k minimuim. Whatever it takes to give decent players a chance to react.

Then we'll get more threads replacing the undeath ones complaining about healing or the tank meta that refuse to acknowledge the root cause of people building tanky in the first place. If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp. With undeath at 1/3 potency the future hp and resist/mitigation min will adapt to make up that 2/3 difference.

"If you could survive at 25k hp without going from 100-0 in an instant you'd see people running around with 25k hp"

This is completely false, the reason why people run high HP is because it benefits you to do so on a lot of builds. Take for example high health warden, you can become unkillable via super high HP polar winds and make your group nigh unkillabe which result in groups with 50k+ hp healing each other and never dying. I once saw a 100k health warden emperor with polar wind and his group never died because of the cross healing. No one would run low health just because damage is low, they run high health because the game makes high health OP in many ways.
You get OP shields, you get OP cross healing, you get OP survivability and without having to sacrifice anything and still being a Damage dealer. None of that has to do with 100 to 0 meta, it's because people want to be super tanky and damage dealers at the same time.

This change is good because now you have to build for it and you don't just get it for a negigible cost. The flame damage taken was not significant enough to make a difference and neither was the sustain cost. Sustaining hasn't been an issue at all since the introduction of Wretched vitality and sustain CPs in cp 2.0

High damage meta is good, making people make choices to get tankiness is good, being given mitigation while barely losing out on anything is bad. I'm not sure how people can be in opposition to it being nerfed.

That's just one class and their hp scaling defensive skills besides most Wardens are already running around with at least 38k hp. Why do other classes build for at least 30k hp?

.

Warden is not the only class this applies to, it's funny that needs to be spelled out. If you look at history since CP 2.0 warden is not the only class that resulted in high health gameplay Almost ALL classes have had high health based builds because the game keeps rewarding being a high health player. I quite literally alluded to that fact when I mentioned that "you get op shields, op healing, and op survivability" but since I need to explicitly state this, here's a bunch of cases where it's been beneficial to be high health and it's NOT because of "high damage:

Sorcs ward scaling
Arcanists ward scaling
NIghtblades dark cloaks scaling prior to the dark cloak nerf
Templar had living dark scaling back when it scaled off HP and damage, a lot of templars went the high HP route
Warden i've already explained benefit now because of high health polar wind

Only really Dragonknight and Necromancer have fallen in the group of where it wasn't beneficial to be running high health during those times.

I'm not sure why we're trying to lie as if Warden has only been the only class in history benefitting from being high health in PVP, this game rewards it for almost everyone.

It's a flat out lie to say that this is because of "100-0 potential", it's been happening since no proc in 2021 and the damage back then was no where compared to what it is now. This has only gotten more popular now, it has never been an now only thing.

I see you're Intentionally missing my point by erasing it in the quote well here it is again:

4 years ago most players in Cyro were around the 26k hp range before hybridization. As sets and skills became more accessible boosting character potential defensive stats and hp rose up to 30k to counteract that. With this change the same thing will happen with players adapting elsewhere and like so many things instead of looking at the cause they'll just blame the effect which is what the meta shifts to in order to counteract it.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying the root cause hasn't changed so players will adapt in other ways to the same effect which will cause more players to moan and cry for that to be nerfed as well, ad infinitum. Curing the illness by suppressing the symptoms. We'll see your post on the new adaptation in 3-6 months

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I am happy undeath is getting the hammer, but by the 8 they also buffed nightblades on top, like wth.

Indeed, that is a big concern. With core issues untouched after losing undeath people will feel forced to build more tanky and the situation will ultimately remain more or less the same.
While ganking has already gotten out of hand as the only way to counter it is to build 40k+ health.

The problem is that both sides are self fulfilling prophecies ... gankers gank, because it is the only way to have a chance at killing a 40K+ health heal-o-matic player, while that same player is building that, to survive a gank......

And since neither is getting addressed, they will continue, and eventually, be the only two playstyles in the game.

Auldwulfe

^ This is my point, they get it. If you don't like or want to understand my post this is the core of it.

[...]

And as time tells, people enjoy doing Tarnished nightmare esque Gank builds, otherwise if they didn't enjoy this, people would probably be playing in No CP no proc, but everyone quickly left and stopped supporting Ravenwatch until they changed it in the new PTS.

I only think gankers keep ganking because they enjoy ganking and the enjoy the power of 100 to 0 bursting people with procs like Tarnished nightmare.

The lack of ganking proc builds is most definitely not the reason Ravenwatch is low population.

That's not what I was implying you were reading too much into that , I was saying if people really didn't want to be a ganker as a DD and protested that way of playing, you would probably more likely see them leave proc PVP. Of course there's more than one reason RW is dead(but that isn't really the point I was making).

But you see no one saying anything like "i'm playing ravenwatch because theres no toxic proc gankers " or "i don't enjoy proc gank PVP meta". It's not that people are fed up with proc gank metas, it's quite opposite, people love the power it gives.

Some simply like the idea of “edgy assassin” playstyle, while others are looking for easy kills with minimal effort as ganking currently is just that. It may have a room to exist but currently it’s was too effective which attracts even more players to the point that sometimes for every non-nb there are 2-3 nbs nearby looking to gank, quite literally.

I do not imply the playstyle should be taken from players but with how overly effective and widespread it is, it’s definetly not quite healthy for pvp environment.
It requires little to no effort from a player while allowing for no real counterplay. Power and ease of use have attracted so many players looking for easy kills that sometimes it is almost impossible to have a decent fight without being ganked at some point.

It’s true that ganking was way less popular until recent nb buffs and new proc sets release.

merevie

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

Lucifer9th

Detect skills is laggy, they can still go invisible with the little range of these skills
And attack skills already launched to a target dissapears when the target go invisible just before impact, they go invisible, they do not go in another dimension, need to fox that

Zyaneth_Bal

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You can’t block a gank because it’s a gank, obviously, unless it happens by accident or you hold block permanently.
Detect pots only have 37% uptime max and detect skills rarely work due to server lag. You can press it while on top of someone and then they still go invisible.

Durham

Not really true Auldwulfe there have always been gankers even in the old Medium Armor era. Currently Night blades dominate PVP most metrics have Night blades at almost 50% of the population currently with Sorcs being #2.

You have about 50% of the population (5 classes) that cant avoid damage and have to litterly heal through everything they are tanks or they are dead.
Then you 50% of the population even tho I think its over 50% currently are Sorcs and Nighblades who are the most mobile and have the ability to avoid damage.

We will have to see how the undeath passive is going to play out. But right now ZOS is not addressing the balance between the classes. They finally made some changes with the Necro but how long has it taken. They are not addressing the power creep of Ranged damage vs Melee centric damage. 95% of the sets in the game are not even being used in PVP because of set imbalance.

Durham

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You can’t block a gank because it’s a gank, obviously, unless it happens by accident or you hold block permanently.
Detect pots only have 37% uptime max and detect skills rarely work due to server lag. You can press it while on top of someone and then they still go invisible.

Also keep in mind that Night blades run major and minor expedition! They are quickly out of detect range. Most groups will have to burn multiple detect pots to kill a good night blade.

Durham

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You cant expect people to run around just blocking lol... You also cant run detect pots all the time either. Pots are the only counter and its limited! I dont have the problem with that. What I have a problem is a class that can do insane burst damage but at the same time do insane burst healing. My night blade is an insane burst healer!

Zyaneth_Bal

Durham wrote: »

Not really true Auldwulfe there have always been gankers even in the old Medium Armor era. Currently Night blades dominate PVP most metrics have Night blades at almost 50% of the population currently with Sorcs being #2.

You have about 50% of the population (5 classes) that cant avoid damage and have to litterly heal through everything they are tanks or they are dead.
Then you 50% of the population even tho I think its over 50% currently are Sorcs and Nighblades who are the most mobile and have the ability to avoid damage.

We will have to see how the undeath passive is going to play out. But right now ZOS is not addressing the balance between the classes. They finally made some changes with the Necro but how long has it taken. They are not addressing the power creep of Ranged damage vs Melee centric damage. 95% of the sets in the game are not even being used in PVP because of set imbalance.

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

Joy_Division

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Not really true Auldwulfe there have always been gankers even in the old Medium Armor era. Currently Night blades dominate PVP most metrics have Night blades at almost 50% of the population currently with Sorcs being #2.

You have about 50% of the population (5 classes) that cant avoid damage and have to litterly heal through everything they are tanks or they are dead.
Then you 50% of the population even tho I think its over 50% currently are Sorcs and Nighblades who are the most mobile and have the ability to avoid damage.

We will have to see how the undeath passive is going to play out. But right now ZOS is not addressing the balance between the classes. They finally made some changes with the Necro but how long has it taken. They are not addressing the power creep of Ranged damage vs Melee centric damage. 95% of the sets in the game are not even being used in PVP because of set imbalance.

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

Sorcerer and Nightblade have always been among the most popular classes (for PvP) because those two classes have historically spent the most time as top tier and alone offer the player to do something else besides die gloriously when the zerg comes. Where exactly is the high risk in engaging at maximum range while blinking away the moment of encountering real danger? An archetypical mage from other RPGs that has weak defenses and gets destroyed in close quarters combat is high risk. That's nothing like ESO

When sorcerer was crap before 1.6, hardly anyone played it even though it was the only "mage" in the game.
Many people will not play a bad class. If a class is popular, a big reason for that is because it is performing at a high level.

***

The idea the people have high health because of NB gankers is only one part of the reason, and probably not the most important. The prevalence of NB bombers, organized groups and their stupid pull sets that don;t confer CC immunity, allies who are walking Vicious Death bombs with their health and zero resistances, and the high amount of damage available to anything but the tankiest build means having high health and high resistances are necessary for people who dislike horse riding simulator or just don't like dying.

People also go to 100-0 tactic not just because there is so much healing, but because it is by far the most reliable way to kill somebody. Even if healing were nerfed to the ground, the fact of the matter is that good players are survivable mostly because of their intelligent use of LoS and their mobility, which makes 100-0ing these players so desirable. If they stood still, then 100-90-80-70-etc would be a viable option.

ZOS did the right thing here. I don;t think its perfect because stage 1 vamp still looks flat out better than mortal, but good riddance to 30% reduction. That is a big enough change where I don't think they should be tinkering with anything else mitigation/healing/survival related until enough time has passed where we can assess this with experience and data.

Zyaneth_Bal

Joy_Division wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Not really true Auldwulfe there have always been gankers even in the old Medium Armor era. Currently Night blades dominate PVP most metrics have Night blades at almost 50% of the population currently with Sorcs being #2.

You have about 50% of the population (5 classes) that cant avoid damage and have to litterly heal through everything they are tanks or they are dead.
Then you 50% of the population even tho I think its over 50% currently are Sorcs and Nighblades who are the most mobile and have the ability to avoid damage.

We will have to see how the undeath passive is going to play out. But right now ZOS is not addressing the balance between the classes. They finally made some changes with the Necro but how long has it taken. They are not addressing the power creep of Ranged damage vs Melee centric damage. 95% of the sets in the game are not even being used in PVP because of set imbalance.

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

Sorcerer and Nightblade have always been among the most popular classes (for PvP) because those two classes have historically spent the most time as top tier and alone offer the player to do something else besides die gloriously when the zerg comes. Where exactly is the high risk in engaging at maximum range while blinking away the moment of encountering real danger? An archetypical mage from other RPGs that has weak defenses and gets destroyed in close quarters combat is high risk. That's nothing like ESO

When sorcerer was crap before 1.6, hardly anyone played it even though it was the only "mage" in the game.
Many people will not play a bad class. If a class is popular, a big reason for that is because it is performing at a high level.

***

The idea the people have high health because of NB gankers is only one part of the reason, and probably not the most important. The prevalence of NB bombers, organized groups and their stupid pull sets that don;t confer CC immunity, allies who are walking Vicious Death bombs with their health and zero resistances, and the high amount of damage available to anything but the tankiest build means having high health and high resistances are necessary for people who dislike horse riding simulator or just don't like dying.

People also go to 100-0 tactic not just because there is so much healing, but because it is by far the most reliable way to kill somebody. Even if healing were nerfed to the ground, the fact of the matter is that good players are survivable mostly because of their intelligent use of LoS and their mobility, which makes 100-0ing these players so desirable. If they stood still, then 100-90-80-70-etc would be a viable option.

ZOS did the right thing here. I don;t think its perfect because stage 1 vamp still looks flat out better than mortal, but good riddance to 30% reduction. That is a big enough change where I don't think they should be tinkering with anything else mitigation/healing/survival related until enough time has passed where we can assess this with experience and data.

Nightblades and sorcs have always been abundant no matter the meta. Even before the recent buffs sorc was hardly rare depsite the class being dead, same goes for nightbalde, that’s a fact, plain and simple.
Bombs aren’t actually as common now as they used to be and organized groups aren’t prevalent either, most of the players are still unorganized or solo.
And your take on 100-0 is wrong because there’s most certainly no need to los in 1v1 or even 1v2 or more, depending on players, against sustained damage as all damage is easily outhealed. Your idea does not explain the recent growth in popularity of 100-0 builds as los has always been an important and widely utilized tactic

Turtle_Bot

Durham wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You can’t block a gank because it’s a gank, obviously, unless it happens by accident or you hold block permanently.
Detect pots only have 37% uptime max and detect skills rarely work due to server lag. You can press it while on top of someone and then they still go invisible.

Also keep in mind that Night blades run major and minor expedition! They are quickly out of detect range. Most groups will have to burn multiple detect pots to kill a good night blade.

And even then those groups will have to be of at least above average in skill level to actually attempt to get that kill.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

tbh I'm curious to see what happens with class populations this patch. All of the ability based "counters" to cloak that were reliable (ele sus, entropy, etc) got fixed this PTS cycle, yet NB has not received a single reduction to its survivability to account for that direct (and massive) buff to cloak (in fact its defensive buffs got easier to maintain on top of this).

Without those abilities being able to break cloak anymore (which did need addressing) and if NB survivability outside of cloak is not addressed even a tiny bit this PTS cycle, I would not be surprised to see the NB population explode again this patch as ganking becomes even easier and safer than ever before.

Zyaneth_Bal

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You can’t block a gank because it’s a gank, obviously, unless it happens by accident or you hold block permanently.
Detect pots only have 37% uptime max and detect skills rarely work due to server lag. You can press it while on top of someone and then they still go invisible.

Also keep in mind that Night blades run major and minor expedition! They are quickly out of detect range. Most groups will have to burn multiple detect pots to kill a good night blade.

And even then those groups will have to be of at least above average in skill level to actually attempt to get that kill.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

tbh I'm curious to see what happens with class populations this patch. All of the ability based "counters" to cloak that were reliable (ele sus, entropy, etc) got fixed this PTS cycle, yet NB has not received a single reduction to its survivability to account for that direct (and massive) buff to cloak (in fact its defensive buffs got easier to maintain on top of this).

Without those abilities being able to break cloak anymore (which did need addressing) and if NB survivability outside of cloak is not addressed even a tiny bit this PTS cycle, I would not be surprised to see the NB population explode again this patch as ganking becomes even easier and safer than ever before.

If that happens I’m afraid there won’t be anyone left to gank lol.
Nb has always been one of the most popular classes and I don’t think it has ever been as popular as it is right now.

master_vanargand

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You can’t block a gank because it’s a gank, obviously, unless it happens by accident or you hold block permanently.
Detect pots only have 37% uptime max and detect skills rarely work due to server lag. You can press it while on top of someone and then they still go invisible.

Also keep in mind that Night blades run major and minor expedition! They are quickly out of detect range. Most groups will have to burn multiple detect pots to kill a good night blade.

And even then those groups will have to be of at least above average in skill level to actually attempt to get that kill.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

tbh I'm curious to see what happens with class populations this patch. All of the ability based "counters" to cloak that were reliable (ele sus, entropy, etc) got fixed this PTS cycle, yet NB has not received a single reduction to its survivability to account for that direct (and massive) buff to cloak (in fact its defensive buffs got easier to maintain on top of this).

Without those abilities being able to break cloak anymore (which did need addressing) and if NB survivability outside of cloak is not addressed even a tiny bit this PTS cycle, I would not be surprised to see the NB population explode again this patch as ganking becomes even easier and safer than ever before.

"Elemental Susceptibility" and "Structured Entropy" destroying invisibility was a bug.
They were never designed as a counter to Cloak.
ZoS has officially fixed the bug, so they acknowledge it's a bug.
All I can say is "Use Detect Pot", only it.

master_vanargand wrote: »

In an update a few years ago, invisible and stealth were no longer broken by single or AoE DoTs.
Only AoE direct damage, Detection potion, and Detection skill can destroy invisible and stealth.
But "Elemental Susceptibility" and "Structured Entropy" destroy invisible and stealth.
This is a bug, I tested how this happens.

Below is a video of me testing the bug.

[ESO]"Elemental Susceptibility" and "Structured Entropy" destroy invisible[BUG]
https://youtu.be/GOTjX6kePkQ

[Test]

1. Testing "Structured Entropy", destroy invisible.
2. Testing "Normal DoT skill", Invisible will be maintained.
3. Testing "Elemental Susceptibility", destroy invisible.
4. Testing "Overcharged of Status effect ", Invisible will be maintained.

Zyaneth_Bal

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You can’t block a gank because it’s a gank, obviously, unless it happens by accident or you hold block permanently.
Detect pots only have 37% uptime max and detect skills rarely work due to server lag. You can press it while on top of someone and then they still go invisible.

Also keep in mind that Night blades run major and minor expedition! They are quickly out of detect range. Most groups will have to burn multiple detect pots to kill a good night blade.

And even then those groups will have to be of at least above average in skill level to actually attempt to get that kill.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

tbh I'm curious to see what happens with class populations this patch. All of the ability based "counters" to cloak that were reliable (ele sus, entropy, etc) got fixed this PTS cycle, yet NB has not received a single reduction to its survivability to account for that direct (and massive) buff to cloak (in fact its defensive buffs got easier to maintain on top of this).

Without those abilities being able to break cloak anymore (which did need addressing) and if NB survivability outside of cloak is not addressed even a tiny bit this PTS cycle, I would not be surprised to see the NB population explode again this patch as ganking becomes even easier and safer than ever before.

Btw elemental susceptibility applies concussed and chilled which are direct damage and direct damage removes stealth, so it is working as it should imo.

master_vanargand

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You can’t block a gank because it’s a gank, obviously, unless it happens by accident or you hold block permanently.
Detect pots only have 37% uptime max and detect skills rarely work due to server lag. You can press it while on top of someone and then they still go invisible.

Also keep in mind that Night blades run major and minor expedition! They are quickly out of detect range. Most groups will have to burn multiple detect pots to kill a good night blade.

And even then those groups will have to be of at least above average in skill level to actually attempt to get that kill.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

tbh I'm curious to see what happens with class populations this patch. All of the ability based "counters" to cloak that were reliable (ele sus, entropy, etc) got fixed this PTS cycle, yet NB has not received a single reduction to its survivability to account for that direct (and massive) buff to cloak (in fact its defensive buffs got easier to maintain on top of this).

Without those abilities being able to break cloak anymore (which did need addressing) and if NB survivability outside of cloak is not addressed even a tiny bit this PTS cycle, I would not be surprised to see the NB population explode again this patch as ganking becomes even easier and safer than ever before.

Btw elemental susceptibility applies concussed and chilled which are direct damage and direct damage removes stealth, so it is working as it should imo.

No, single direct damage does not remove stealth.
Only AoE direct damage, Detection potion, and Detection skill can destroy invisible and stealth.
This can be understood by reading the information written in the official old patch.

Zyaneth_Bal

master_vanargand wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

There are other ways to counter ganking than 40k health.

Detect

Block

You can’t block a gank because it’s a gank, obviously, unless it happens by accident or you hold block permanently.
Detect pots only have 37% uptime max and detect skills rarely work due to server lag. You can press it while on top of someone and then they still go invisible.

Also keep in mind that Night blades run major and minor expedition! They are quickly out of detect range. Most groups will have to burn multiple detect pots to kill a good night blade.

And even then those groups will have to be of at least above average in skill level to actually attempt to get that kill.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

It’s true that nb and sorc population has gone way up recently but it should be noted that both have always been among the most popular classes simply because they are the closest to the generic “mage” and “rogue”. It’s true that nightblade is overperforming currently but despite what some say, sorc is in a good spot right now and the contrast in pop change is only that drastic because up until very recently sorc has been experiencing the literal rock bottom, and even then many still kept asking for nerfs. Sorc is a high risk, high reward class and people always have issues with those. Besides being the generic “mage” the other reason for sorc’s popularity is that for the first time in a long while it’s genuinely fun to play again because once again you can actually get the “reward” I just mentioned.
Already too much text not exactly on topic so I’m not going indepth on either class. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to clarify.

As the topic was on changes that need to compliment the undeath nerf (which once again is totally justified) and issues like excessive healing and easy access to huge amounts of damage, ganking in particular as the reward vastly outweighs any risks still left and due to it’s nature it currently offers no real counterplay without heavy investment.

tbh I'm curious to see what happens with class populations this patch. All of the ability based "counters" to cloak that were reliable (ele sus, entropy, etc) got fixed this PTS cycle, yet NB has not received a single reduction to its survivability to account for that direct (and massive) buff to cloak (in fact its defensive buffs got easier to maintain on top of this).

Without those abilities being able to break cloak anymore (which did need addressing) and if NB survivability outside of cloak is not addressed even a tiny bit this PTS cycle, I would not be surprised to see the NB population explode again this patch as ganking becomes even easier and safer than ever before.

Btw elemental susceptibility applies concussed and chilled which are direct damage and direct damage removes stealth, so it is working as it should imo.

No, single direct damage does not remove stealth.
Only AoE direct damage, Detection potion, and Detection skill can destroy invisible and stealth.
This can be understood by reading the information written in the official old patch.

Single target direct damage does remove stealth, skills like curse and potl for instance. Your misunderstandings stems from the fact that there are very few sources of single target direct damage that actually remove stealth because they need a target and thus have to deal delayed damage because they obviously can’t be use when the target is already hidden.
Therefore the absolute majority of direct damage skills that remove stealth are aoe.