Vampire: Lack of incentive for Stage 3 and 4...

Quethrosar

so sick of pvp interfering with pve.

CameraBeardThePirate

Quethrosar wrote: »

so sick of pvp interfering with pve.

It goes both ways literally every patch.

Remember when mist form got gutted and turned into a janky streak because they had no idea how to balance it for PvE?

Necrotech_Master

Sahidom wrote: »

Personally, the Vampire "being" should do away with the vampire stages. You either are, or are not, a vampire and no in-between stage rating because at this point in the game the whole feeding is a dead mechanic.

They should rework all the passives and redesign the Vampiric Drain to function similar to the Wrath of Elements: This would let the character vampire cast this on the target and the channeling effect functions similar to Wrath of Elements e.g. the player can still execute other abilities while the channeling drain is active.

The Ultimate should be a "power" aura than a transformation morph to allow faster transitions into using the Ultimate, and better out-of-Ultimate transitions.

The significant weakness between Vampires and Werewolves is the vampire vulnerability to Fighter Guild abilities 100% of the time, whereas Werewolves are only susceptible when transformed. Outside increased Fire damage, in PVP, that vulnerability is hefty and with the changes to Undeath, it will be more so noticeable. So, they need to rework vampire and remove the whole vampire stage, dated design model, and use the passive rework to buff vampires to be more competitive against their WW counterparts.

i kind of agree with this

i think the stages are kind of a useless mechanic at this point, or maybe drop it down to 2 stages at a minimum

i also think its kind of annoying that you cant extend the duration of the vampire ult by feeding, similar to WW feeding

Araneae6537

Quethrosar wrote: »

so sick of pvp interfering with pve.

Vampire was less than useless for PvE outside of questing anyway, and this change doesn’t hurt the stealth utility.

Sahidom

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Personally, the Vampire "being" should do away with the vampire stages. You either are, or are not, a vampire and no in-between stage rating because at this point in the game the whole feeding is a dead mechanic.

... clipped

i kind of agree with this

i think the stages are kind of a useless mechanic at this point, or maybe drop it down to 2 stages at a minimum

i also think its kind of annoying that you cant extend the duration of the vampire ult by feeding, similar to WW feeding

I am glad someone else does. Remove the stages and rework the passives to be competitive to WW since Vampires are penalized full-time for being one e.g. fire damage, skill cost increases, the 100% uptime on increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities (their very common in PVP), crime penalties, NPCs refusing to deal with you, and the changes to undeath warrant a revision.

As far as "feeding" goes. This could return tangible benefits BUT NOT through passives. The mechanic could be changed to "when fed" you receive a bonus to health, stamina, or magic (or all three) for two hours. This bonus only gained by feeding from NPCs. This satisfies RP and offers a continued buff for those taking the time to play the "feeding" mechanic.

Blood Frenzy, and its morphs, should also ADD Major Brutality and Sorcery while the skill is active or while the skill is slotted. The health loss cost/second and cannot be healed by outsiders is enough risk and reward penalty for using the ability.

I already said my peace about Vampiric Drain to alter the ability to be more user-friendly and could be tied into PVE rotations and adds some fluid usage in PVP.

The Ultimate abilities should be a "power" aura for the stated reasons.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Thing is ZOS has had things work fine, then they went and changed it, they go and gut Undeath instead of just going back to the more balanced only functioning under 50% health version.

Remember how Mist Form used to work? it was fine when it lasted for 3 seconds and gave 75% damage resistance, then for whatever reason they made it a toggle and then it was made into a teleport? why not just go back to the 3 seconds?

master_vanargand

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thing is ZOS has had things work fine, then they went and changed it, they go and gut Undeath instead of just going back to the more balanced only functioning under 50% health version.

Remember how Mist Form used to work? it was fine when it lasted for 3 seconds and gave 75% damage resistance, then for whatever reason they made it a toggle and then it was made into a teleport? why not just go back to the 3 seconds?

Is 75% damage resistance ok from old Mist Form?
No, it was destined to be nerfed.
I'm really enjoying using the current Mist Form and really like it.

Lucifer9th

If the new mist form does not need to target the ground and always travel 15m, iit will be great

Veinblood1965

I've just barely logged in the last week or so. Just way too many unpopular changes especially the vendor sales only lasting two weeks, undeath, mail only lasting two weeks and the stupid invulnerable phases of most bosses lately. I noticed a few guilds the amount of people online during prime time has almost halved. I suspect it's going to get worse. ZoS has lost their way.

master_vanargand

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I've just barely logged in the last week or so. Just way too many unpopular changes especially the vendor sales only lasting two weeks, undeath, mail only lasting two weeks and the stupid invulnerable phases of most bosses lately. I noticed a few guilds the amount of people online during prime time has almost halved. I suspect it's going to get worse. ZoS has lost their way.

I think this is the first step to saving ESO.
To be honest, I don't think people who like the "Undeath" of live server have any right to talk about game balance.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

master_vanargand wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thing is ZOS has had things work fine, then they went and changed it, they go and gut Undeath instead of just going back to the more balanced only functioning under 50% health version.

Remember how Mist Form used to work? it was fine when it lasted for 3 seconds and gave 75% damage resistance, then for whatever reason they made it a toggle and then it was made into a teleport? why not just go back to the 3 seconds?

Is 75% damage resistance ok from old Mist Form?
No, it was destined to be nerfed.
I'm really enjoying using the current Mist Form and really like it.

Back when it was 75% it only lasted for 3 seconds and while it was active you couldn't do anything but move and you did not regenerate, it was not like you could fight back when it was active.

master_vanargand

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thing is ZOS has had things work fine, then they went and changed it, they go and gut Undeath instead of just going back to the more balanced only functioning under 50% health version.

Remember how Mist Form used to work? it was fine when it lasted for 3 seconds and gave 75% damage resistance, then for whatever reason they made it a toggle and then it was made into a teleport? why not just go back to the 3 seconds?

Is 75% damage resistance ok from old Mist Form?
No, it was destined to be nerfed.
I'm really enjoying using the current Mist Form and really like it.

Back when it was 75% it only lasted for 3 seconds and while it was active you couldn't do anything but move and you did not regenerate, it was not like you could fight back when it was active.

You may not know it, but it was still ultra super very OP.
Mist Form and run away, turn around unnoticed and target the opponent while retreating, then use "Dawnbreaker of Smiting"!! and combo, easy kill lol.
This was a easy combo that was often used during the near-invincible Mist Form days.
Or can easily create a build that won't die even in 1v10+.

Fantalior

It's just a shame that there is basically no passive for level 3 anymore, just an additional level without a buff to level 4. Then you could also reduce the 4 to 3 levels and thus fill this logical gap.

But the nerf is good it's ridiculous how much some players can take at 15% health.

Sahidom

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thing is ZOS has had things work fine, then they went and changed it, they go and gut Undeath instead of just going back to the more balanced only functioning under 50% health version.

Remember how Mist Form used to work? it was fine when it lasted for 3 seconds and gave 75% damage resistance, then for whatever reason they made it a toggle and then it was made into a teleport? why not just go back to the 3 seconds?

The Undeath scaling was broken that allowed players to exceed the tooltip % damage reduction to current health. Switching Undeath to the flat 10% bonus puts Undeath on par to Major Protection except the passive is multiplicative to Major or Minor Protection.

However, the PTS notes does not clarify whether Undeath continues to scale; IF so, then they'll need to correct the broken mechanic that allows players to exceed the tooltip % damage reduction. I have not gone onto the PTS to check.

Some conceptual idea on the passives:

I would baseline Vampires penalties to Stage 3 (...still removing the Stage mechanic)
Health Recovery: -60%
Flame Damage Taken: +13%
Regular Ability Costs: +8%
Vampire Ability Costs: -16%

Change Feeding passive:
Reduce Vampire penalties by 50% for 2 hours.

For example, being revitalized by drinking blood.
Health Recovery: -30%
Flame Damage Taken: -7% (rounded up)
Regular Ability Costs: +4%
Vampire Ability Costs: -8%

THEN ADD +10% bonus or +1000 Tri-Stat bonus to Resources for 2 hours. This is essentially the reward for playing out the 'Feeding' mechanic against NPCs. However, I am fond of the 0/1 logic that decides the state between feed to unfed on the on the above penalties for being a vampire.

Personally, feeding is attached to vampire stages that should be done away with since players are able to consume the special food that allows them to instantly switch between Stage 1 and Stage 4. However, this change idea is a concession for those RP players and gain a more tangible benefit for playing the mechanic out: IF IT really must stay around.

Dark Stalker: Remain the Same except ADD Reduce Stealth Detection Range %based or distance/based.

Strike from the Shadows: Remain the Same except ADD enemies damaged causes them to Cower in fear for 3 seconds and be afflicted with Minor Cowardice.

Blood Ritual: Remain the Same.

Undeath: Reduce your damage taken by up to 10%. REMOVE: based on your missing health.

Unnatural Movement: Remain the Same except ADD Minor Evasion and -20% Cost of Dodge Roll.

mmtaniac

Just unlock vampire abilities with stage. Ultimate and mist form on 4 stage.

Fantalior

mmtaniac wrote: »

Just unlock vampire abilities with stage. Ultimate and mist form on 4 stage.

please don't e.g. I don't play the vamp because of the 30% (which are very nice) in pvp but for the teleport, actually for everyone except the sorc who brings one with him.

It's also a shame if a level runs out in the middle of the BG and suddenly you have 2 dead skills on the bar in the middle of the fight...

mmtaniac

People asked idea for 3-4 stage and this is my idea. Lock abilities behind stages and buff them to be viable on those stages. Abilities not passives.

Blackrim

Sahidom wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thing is ZOS has had things work fine, then they went and changed it, they go and gut Undeath instead of just going back to the more balanced only functioning under 50% health version.

Remember how Mist Form used to work? it was fine when it lasted for 3 seconds and gave 75% damage resistance, then for whatever reason they made it a toggle and then it was made into a teleport? why not just go back to the 3 seconds?

The Undeath scaling was broken that allowed players to exceed the tooltip % damage reduction to current health. Switching Undeath to the flat 10% bonus puts Undeath on par to Major Protection except the passive is multiplicative to Major or Minor Protection.

However, the PTS notes does not clarify whether Undeath continues to scale; IF so, then they'll need to correct the broken mechanic that allows players to exceed the tooltip % damage reduction. I have not gone onto the PTS to check.

Some conceptual idea on the passives:

I would baseline Vampires penalties to Stage 3 (...still removing the Stage mechanic)
Health Recovery: -60%
Flame Damage Taken: +13%
Regular Ability Costs: +8%
Vampire Ability Costs: -16%

Change Feeding passive:
Reduce Vampire penalties by 50% for 2 hours.

For example, being revitalized by drinking blood.
Health Recovery: -30%
Flame Damage Taken: -7% (rounded up)
Regular Ability Costs: +4%
Vampire Ability Costs: -8%

THEN ADD +10% bonus or +1000 Tri-Stat bonus to Resources for 2 hours. This is essentially the reward for playing out the 'Feeding' mechanic against NPCs. However, I am fond of the 0/1 logic that decides the state between feed to unfed on the on the above penalties for being a vampire.

Personally, feeding is attached to vampire stages that should be done away with since players are able to consume the special food that allows them to instantly switch between Stage 1 and Stage 4. However, this change idea is a concession for those RP players and gain a more tangible benefit for playing the mechanic out: IF IT really must stay around.

Dark Stalker: Remain the Same except ADD Reduce Stealth Detection Range %based or distance/based.

Strike from the Shadows: Remain the Same except ADD enemies damaged causes them to Cower in fear for 3 seconds and be afflicted with Minor Cowardice.

Blood Ritual: Remain the Same.

Undeath: Reduce your damage taken by up to 10%. REMOVE: based on your missing health.

Unnatural Movement: Remain the Same except ADD Minor Evasion and -20% Cost of Dodge Roll.

I really like the feeding penalty idea, but I think make it like every hour so you constantly have to eat.

StShoot

Groterdan wrote: »

Change it further .5 procent per stage .so max 20 . Then it's halved at stage 3 . And a reason to become stage 4 for extra 5.

That would only increase the gap between classes that can sustain stage 4 vs classes that cant. Strong classes will become even stronger while weak classes become worse

katorga

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Yes. It is a straight nerf. It's a straight nerf because undeath on live is disgustingly overtuned in all environments. Up to 30% free mitigation is insane.

And guess what? Up to 10% mitigation is still very good.

I'm in favor of the nerf or even removing it entirely, but let's be real, the majority of players in cyro can be bursted down in seconds right now, even with undeath. Next patch is going to be glorious for gankers, bombers, and ball groups.

xylena_lazarow

katorga wrote: »

I'm in favor of the nerf or even removing it entirely, but let's be real, the majority of players in cyro can be down in seconds right now, even with undeath. Next patch is going to be glorious for gankers, bombers, and ball groups.

Glorious indeed, it'll be zero change for a lot of players, while anyone crutching on free face tanking to play passively in 3 damage sets, waiting for something to happen, will have a reckoning. The death of Undeath is a huge buff to pressure builds and execute skills against low hp defensive spam, and a much needed nerf to stalemate playstyles.

You want to win, go for the kill, as it should be. As far as Stages 3 and 4, it would be cool if the sprint invis was moved to Stage 3, and something actually powerful was added to Stage 4.

katorga

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

I'm in favor of the nerf or even removing it entirely, but let's be real, the majority of players in cyro can be down in seconds right now, even with undeath. Next patch is going to be glorious for gankers, bombers, and ball groups.

Glorious indeed, it'll be zero change for a lot of players, while anyone crutching on free face tanking to play passively in 3 damage sets, waiting for something to happen, will have a reckoning. The death of Undeath is a huge buff to pressure builds and execute skills against low hp defensive spam, and a much needed nerf to stalemate playstyles.

You want to win, go for the kill, as it should be. As far as Stages 3 and 4, it would be cool if the sprint invis was moved to Stage 3, and something actually powerful was added to Stage 4.

Implementing X causes reaction, resulting in doing Y. This will lead to complaints that time to kill is too low, and ZOS will react with more nerfs and/or buffs to increase survivability. The cycle just repeats over and over.

xylena_lazarow

katorga wrote: »

Implementing X causes reaction, resulting in doing Y. This will lead to complaints that time to kill is too low

Yes, good. If you want to survive, tank up. The only players complaining will be those who refuse to adapt.

Blackrim

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

I'm in favor of the nerf or even removing it entirely, but let's be real, the majority of players in cyro can be down in seconds right now, even with undeath. Next patch is going to be glorious for gankers, bombers, and ball groups.

Glorious indeed, it'll be zero change for a lot of players, while anyone crutching on free face tanking to play passively in 3 damage sets, waiting for something to happen, will have a reckoning. The death of Undeath is a huge buff to pressure builds and execute skills against low hp defensive spam, and a much needed nerf to stalemate playstyles.

You want to win, go for the kill, as it should be. As far as Stages 3 and 4, it would be cool if the sprint invis was moved to Stage 3, and something actually powerful was added to Stage 4.

Sprint invis is the only thing I care about tbh. It is so unique, but they need to patch up vampire a ton with a lot more value investing in later vampire stages.

malistorr

Agree that stage 3 needs a real and strong benefit to counter the big drawbacks.
They should lessen all of the drawbacks as they are too much.
Also the vampire skills need a rework as most of them are not used.

Aces-High-82

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thing is ZOS has had things work fine, then they went and changed it, they go and gut Undeath instead of just going back to the more balanced only functioning under 50% health version.

Remember how Mist Form used to work? it was fine when it lasted for 3 seconds and gave 75% damage resistance, then for whatever reason they made it a toggle and then it was made into a teleport? why not just go back to the 3 seconds?

Is 75% damage resistance ok from old Mist Form?
No, it was destined to be nerfed.
I'm really enjoying using the current Mist Form and really like it.

Back when it was 75% it only lasted for 3 seconds and while it was active you couldn't do anything but move and you did not regenerate, it was not like you could fight back when it was active.

Desert Rose and Channeled Focus on templar made you an AFK tank and you still could spec into damage.

malistorr

Not a fan of the tank meta. There is too much healing and players are too tanky resulting in few deaths without zergs or outnumbered situations being involved. 1 player should not be able to survive 8 other players attacking him no matter what.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

How about do this, make unnatural movement the stage 3 passive, at stage 4 make a passive that specifically involves the Blood Scion form, something like transforming into a Blood Scion is 15% cheaper and you gain 248 weapon/spell power when transformed.

ArctosCethlenn

It makes sense to tie undeath to a specific stage again, but there're still too many aspects of vamp passives that make it less of a choice, and more... borderline mandatory.

The Stage 2 spell and weapon damage proc should only trigger from using vampire skills, not on leaving stealth or invisibility, and the general passive to remove stealth speed reductions should be copied onto a nightblade shadow passive (like the really awful +2s duration passive). Right now vamp is pretty clearly designed to synergize with nightblades, since they're the only class that can reliably proc the bonus damage, and as sneaky stealthy guys the speed boost is pretty important thematically.

Vamp should be* a choice, not something you outright need to have on a nightblade, or on any class.

CameraBeardThePirate

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

It makes sense to tie undeath to a specific stage again, but there're still too many aspects of vamp passives that make it less of a choice, and more... borderline mandatory.

The Stage 2 spell and weapon damage proc should only trigger from using vampire skills, not on leaving stealth or invisibility, and the general passive to remove stealth speed reductions should be copied onto a nightblade shadow passive (like the really awful +2s duration passive). Right now vamp is pretty clearly designed to synergize with nightblades, since they're the only class that can reliably proc the bonus damage, and as sneaky stealthy guys the speed boost is pretty important thematically.

Vamp should to be a choice, not something you outright need to have on a nightblade, or on any class.

Any class can reliably proc the bonus damage using mist form.