Vampire: Lack of incentive for Stage 3 and 4...

Blackrim · July 8

Zenimax Developer Team,

I am writing to address the recent changes to Vampirism in Elder Scrolls Online, specifically the modification to the "Undeath" passive, which now applies only to Stage 2. These changes were essential as they represented the last remnants of an outdated mitigation system. However, I have concerns regarding the impact on the overall health and viability of Vampirism within the game.

Key Concerns:

There is minimal incentive to progress beyond Vampirism Stage 2.
High-end PvE trial and arena guilds generally do not utilize Vampirism.
Vampires in PvP who previously advanced beyond Stage 2 are likely to cease doing so.
To enhance the incentive for players to utilize Vampirism beyond Stage 2, I propose the following adjustments:

Vampire Stage 3:

Increase the "Strike from the Shadows" passive from 300 to 450 weapon and spell damage. This adjustment would justify the increased vulnerability to fire damage in Cyrodiil by providing a significant offensive boost.

Vampire Stage 4:

Enhance the "Unnatural Movement" passive to reduce sprint cost by 80% instead of 50%. This change would be highly beneficial for stamina DPS players in Cyrodiil and facilitate the activation of the Stage 3 passive.

These adjustments would result in a class that, while taking substantial damage, gains meaningful buffs, making progression beyond Stage 2 worthwhile.

Thank you for considering my feedback.

Sincerely,

A Concerned Vampire

Durham · July 8

Increase the "Strike from the Shadows" passive from 300 to 450 weapon and spell damage. This adjustment would justify the increased vulnerability to fire damage in Cyrodiil by providing a significant offensive boost.

No! Nightblades are already a top tier class this will mainly buff them. I think 200 weapon damage increase for 10 secs would be better.

Enhance the "Unnatural Movement" passive to reduce sprint cost by 80% instead of 50%. This change would be highly beneficial for stamina DPS players in Cyrodiil and facilitate the activation of the Stage 3 passive.

I'm ok with this.

SkaraMinoc · July 8

Undeath is unlocked at Stage 1, not 2.

Here's PTS today.

Blackrim · July 8

^^ Even more so a reason to provide greater incentive to go beyond stage 1... Nobody needs to go higher now.

Good_VS_Evil · July 10

I hope this doesnt make it to live. As if being a vampire wasnt welcome already now we get a flat 20% loss to our best passive. This isnt a good idea. The worst part is that they havent even given anything in return for the 20% loss, atleast make being a Vampire Stage 3/4 worthwhile if you are going to gut the class line like this.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · July 10

Lamae Bal says feed to get stronger, so what do we gain from feeding?

- A passive that only procs when you leave stealth, invisibility or mist form'
- The ability to run away

Also our weaknesses increase to drastic levels, if they are going to nerf undeath like this then remove the ability cost increase, that never made any sense because now it seems like Lamae Bal is lying about us getting stronger by feeding.

You know what I would of done, make it so Vampirism is an actual active playstyle, put all the weaknesses at stage 1, put all the strengths at stage 4 and shorten the timer between stages, you would have to actively feed every hour to sustain your power and avoid being a corpse.

gariondavey · July 10

There really doesn't seem like much of an incentive to be stage 3 or 4 now

Arcanasx · July 10

Or, keep undeath at vampire stage 3 with the damage reduction nerf.

MEBengalsFan2001 · July 10

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Undeath is unlocked at Stage 1, not 2.

Here's PTS today.

The undeath passive at rank 1 negates the fire damage increase received. IMO the undeath should require rank 2 at minimum.

Solariken · July 10

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

Good_VS_Evil · July 10

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Militan1404 · July 10

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Why are you expecting to get something in return? Its not a trade. It was overperforming and the nerf was needed, its not like its usless now but now you can choose to not be a vamp and not shooting yourself in the leg. There was simply no reason not to be a vampire in pvp becouse of undeath. It supposed to be a curse where you sacrificed your health recovery for undeath passive, but then they nerfed health recovery to the ground in pvp long ago and left undeath as it was so it became a no brainer to be a vamp.

Good_VS_Evil · July 10

Militan1404 wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Why are you expecting to get something in return? Its not a trade. It was overperforming and the nerf was needed, its not like its usless now but now you can choose to not be a vamp and not shooting yourself in the leg. There was simply no reason not to be a vampire in pvp becouse of undeath. It supposed to be a curse where you sacrificed your health recovery for undeath passive, but then they nerfed health recovery to the ground in pvp long ago and left undeath as it was so it became a no brainer to be a vamp.

This doesnt just affect PvP, they are taking away 20% Damage Mitigation period. They have effectively screwed up an entire skill-line not to mention making Stage 2/3/4 Vampirism pointless. You cant just nerf something like that, which affects all aspects of a character into the ground and expect people to be ok with it, if Vampires are losing strength in that area then it would be fair to give them strength in others to make up for it.

Thats the whole point of nerfs/buffs...you dont just TAKE AWAY something and give nothing in return, thats terrible balancing and an easy way to upset your playerbase.

ZDunlain · July 10

I think they should put undead to stage 2 to make it not mandatory in PvP and PvE (because as it is in stage 1, even in PvE will be really good to have because of practically no drawbacks) and buff the vamp ultimate, more stages, more it deals or tank or last longer or whatever just to make PvE roleplayers happy, idk.

Good_VS_Evil · July 10

ZDunlain wrote: »

I think they should put undead to stage 2 to make it not mandatory in PvP and PvE (because as it is in stage 1, even in PvE will be really good to have because of practically no drawbacks) and buff the vamp ultimate, more stages, more it deals or tank or last longer or whatever just to make PvE roleplayers happy, idk.

That would be a fair trade, if they buffed Blood Scion's duration it would make sense to take away 20% Damage Mitigation from the character since that extra time in battle is now effectively tied to your ult instead of basekit. Give and take.

master_vanargand · July 10

It's no good complicating things.
Simply put Undeath back to Vampire stage 3.
Undeath was too strong so we're nerf it. What in return? None.

Groterdan · July 10

Change it further .5 procent per stage .so max 20 . Then it's halved at stage 3 . And a reason to become stage 4 for extra 5.

StarOfElyon · July 10

Durham wrote: »

Increase the "Strike from the Shadows" passive from 300 to 450 weapon and spell damage. This adjustment would justify the increased vulnerability to fire damage in Cyrodiil by providing a significant offensive boost.

No! Nightblades are already a top tier class this will mainly buff them. I think 200 weapon damage increase for 10 secs would be better.

I could tell a nightblade player wrote that. 😂

CameraBeardThePirate · July 10

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Yes. It is a straight nerf. It's a straight nerf because undeath on live is disgustingly overtuned in all environments. Up to 30% free mitigation is insane.

And guess what? Up to 10% mitigation is still very good.

Morvan · July 10

The problem with buffing Strike from the Shadows is that you'll be mostly buffing nightblades, as they make much more consistent use of that passive, don't need to mention how powerful they already are on PvP.

I think they could pretty much change the Undeath to something else and move it back to Stage 3, that way most people would stop using vampirism just for the passive it gives.

Morvan · July 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

And guess what? Up to 10% mitigation is still very good.

And if you consider it's now available at Stage 1, which barely has any drawbacks, it makes it even more accessible and worth it, basically a free mitigation passive to everyone.

They need to scrap that passive and turn it into something that will influence people to use the vampire skills, even after the Greymoor rework people still run vamp solely for passives, it's such a waste of what a good skill line could be tbh.

Necrotech_Master · July 10

way way back in the day before the vamp rework, it used to be more efficient to remain at stage 4 all the time lol

honestly i find it easier to stay at whatever stage doesnt have a freaking timer on it, which right now is stage 1, back before the revamp, it was stage 4 that had no timer and i think better passives

Good_VS_Evil · July 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Yes. It is a straight nerf. It's a straight nerf because undeath on live is disgustingly overtuned in all environments. Up to 30% free mitigation is insane.

And guess what? Up to 10% mitigation is still very good.

The idea that a skill-lines best ability can be nerfed into the ground because ZOS dont know how to fix the PvP doesnt sit right with me.

How it works now is that being a stronger vampire means getting better Damage Mitigation while also being more vulnerable in other areas, that makes sense.

If you are saying "Hey everyone just stay at Stage 1 and get a bunch of positives with little to no drawback", how is that healthy gameplay design? What even the point of Stages 2/3/4 if you will now be effectively crippling yourself more than you helping?

It isnt "overtuned" in all environments, PvP players just have an issue with it, go figure, if this was a PvP problem then they should have just changed its stats/effects while in Battlegrounds/etc.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 10

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Yes. It is a straight nerf. It's a straight nerf because undeath on live is disgustingly overtuned in all environments. Up to 30% free mitigation is insane.

And guess what? Up to 10% mitigation is still very good.

The idea that a skill-lines best ability can be nerfed into the ground because ZOS dont know how to fix the PvP doesnt sit right with me.

How it works now is that being a stronger vampire means getting better Damage Mitigation while also being more vulnerable in other areas, that makes sense.

If you are saying "Hey everyone just stay at Stage 1 and get a bunch of positives with little to no drawback", how is that healthy gameplay design? What even the point of Stages 2/3/4 if you will now be effectively crippling yourself more than you helping?

It isnt "overtuned" in all environments, PvP players just have an issue with it, go figure, if this was a PvP problem then they should have just changed its stats/effects while in Battlegrounds/etc.

Did you not read where I said "all environments"? Undeath is overtuned in PvE too on Live.

And yes, youre right, it is bad game design for it to now basically be free mitigation with no drawbacks. But acting like this is merely a PvP nerf is ridiculous. Up to 30% mitigation on a passive is ridiculous in any aspect of the game.

Good_VS_Evil · July 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Yes. It is a straight nerf. It's a straight nerf because undeath on live is disgustingly overtuned in all environments. Up to 30% free mitigation is insane.

And guess what? Up to 10% mitigation is still very good.

The idea that a skill-lines best ability can be nerfed into the ground because ZOS dont know how to fix the PvP doesnt sit right with me.

How it works now is that being a stronger vampire means getting better Damage Mitigation while also being more vulnerable in other areas, that makes sense.

If you are saying "Hey everyone just stay at Stage 1 and get a bunch of positives with little to no drawback", how is that healthy gameplay design? What even the point of Stages 2/3/4 if you will now be effectively crippling yourself more than you helping?

It isnt "overtuned" in all environments, PvP players just have an issue with it, go figure, if this was a PvP problem then they should have just changed its stats/effects while in Battlegrounds/etc.

Did you not read where I said "all environments"? Undeath is overtuned in PvE too on Live.

And yes, youre right, it is bad game design for it to now basically be free mitigation with no drawbacks. But acting like this is merely a PvP nerf is ridiculous. Up to 30% mitigation on a passive is ridiculous in any aspect of the game.

This is a PvP issue, no one is arguing about a boon for PvE...

"ZOS PLEASE! I AM ABSORBING TOO MUCH DAMAGE IN PVE, I CANT BE STOPPED, PLEASE MAKE ME FEEL NORMAL AGAIN, I AM TOO INDESTRUCTIBLE FOR THESE MOBS!"

LOL

Araneae6537 · July 10

I don’t think the current way vampires work even makes sense, really. Going by Greymoor, shouldn’t vampire stage increase without feeding and perhaps faster with combat (not to make it a too frequent requirement). Instead feeding makes a vampire character appear more corrupted and also makes them generally weaker. I think I prefer how vampire was before Greymoor, although it wasn’t until meeting the Ravenwatch that I was inspired to make one myself…

It definitely isn’t balanced if EVERYONE in a certain role or game type feels they must be a vampire. It should only be meta for certain styles or there be clear trade-offs, so at least this latest change is an improvement.

Blackrim · July 11

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Increase the "Strike from the Shadows" passive from 300 to 450 weapon and spell damage. This adjustment would justify the increased vulnerability to fire damage in Cyrodiil by providing a significant offensive boost.

No! Nightblades are already a top tier class this will mainly buff them. I think 200 weapon damage increase for 10 secs would be better.

I could tell a nightblade player wrote that. 😂

I actually don't play Nightblade but sorcerer!

Blackrim · July 11

I do enjoy the stage 4 invisibility though. It is so valuable in PvP and really allows for interesting playstyles to work well!

Sahidom · July 11

Personally, the Vampire "being" should do away with the vampire stages. You either are, or are not, a vampire and no in-between stage rating because at this point in the game the whole feeding is a dead mechanic.

They should rework all the passives and redesign the Vampiric Drain to function similar to the Wrath of Elements: This would let the character vampire cast this on the target and the channeling effect functions similar to Wrath of Elements e.g. the player can still execute other abilities while the channeling drain is active.

The Ultimate should be a "power" aura than a transformation morph to allow faster transitions into using the Ultimate, and better out-of-Ultimate transitions.

The significant weakness between Vampires and Werewolves is the vampire vulnerability to Fighter Guild abilities 100% of the time, whereas Werewolves are only susceptible when transformed. Outside increased Fire damage, in PVP, that vulnerability is hefty and with the changes to Undeath, it will be more so noticeable. So, they need to rework vampire and remove the whole vampire stage, dated design model, and use the passive rework to buff vampires to be more competitive against their WW counterparts.

Araneae6537 · July 11

@Sahidom That’s a good point. I don’t know why there are four “stages” — two states of sated and hungry or something like that might make sense? And we should just be able to select what vampiric appearance we prefer, since there are skins and polymorphs and other options anyway and vampire is as much for RP as anything.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 11

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I say just keep Undeath at stage 3, but make it Major Protection while under 50% health.

This gives build flexibility while not letting vamps stack excessive mitigation.

So what are Vampires getting in return?

How it works now is we get up to 30% Damage Mitigation while we are Stage 3+

If all you are offering is 10% Damage Reduction (Major Prot) at 50% Health ALSO WHILE Stage 3 then how is that fair to Vampire players? Its just a straight nerf to us with 0 benefits...we are worse off than we were before.

If you are going to nerf something then there should also be buffs to an aspect in other areas no? You are acting like Vampires are just terrorizing PvP and crushing every single person in stomps.

Yes. It is a straight nerf. It's a straight nerf because undeath on live is disgustingly overtuned in all environments. Up to 30% free mitigation is insane.

And guess what? Up to 10% mitigation is still very good.

The idea that a skill-lines best ability can be nerfed into the ground because ZOS dont know how to fix the PvP doesnt sit right with me.

How it works now is that being a stronger vampire means getting better Damage Mitigation while also being more vulnerable in other areas, that makes sense.

If you are saying "Hey everyone just stay at Stage 1 and get a bunch of positives with little to no drawback", how is that healthy gameplay design? What even the point of Stages 2/3/4 if you will now be effectively crippling yourself more than you helping?

It isnt "overtuned" in all environments, PvP players just have an issue with it, go figure, if this was a PvP problem then they should have just changed its stats/effects while in Battlegrounds/etc.

Did you not read where I said "all environments"? Undeath is overtuned in PvE too on Live.

And yes, youre right, it is bad game design for it to now basically be free mitigation with no drawbacks. But acting like this is merely a PvP nerf is ridiculous. Up to 30% mitigation on a passive is ridiculous in any aspect of the game.

This is a PvP issue, no one is arguing about a boon for PvE...

"ZOS PLEASE! I AM ABSORBING TOO MUCH DAMAGE IN PVE, I CANT BE STOPPED, PLEASE MAKE ME FEEL NORMAL AGAIN, I AM TOO INDESTRUCTIBLE FOR THESE MOBS!"

LOL

No one complaining about it has nothing to do with ZOS believing it to be OP or not.

Of course no one is going to complain about something that makes the game easier.