Piercing cold rework

DrNukenstein

@zos

What an awesome idea for balancing a class.

"If health >/= to 30k it does this, otherwise it does that."

An idea like this can potentially change this game for the best. I totally want to see more stuff like it for all classes hopefully this patch cycle, if not just in time for the new PvP thing next cycle. Bring back a distinction between tanks and DD's. Make us make choices.

Skjaldbjorn

I have been extremely critical of Zos' changes for Warden in the past. I didn't love the netch change. It helped, but it was pissing into the ocean of issues around Warden for me.

However, this change...this is brilliant. Removing the absurd, nonsensical, utterly pointless loop to jump through of equipping a frost staff and normalizing the damage buff across all Wardens is just...beautiful. Kudos, Zos. There's still work to be done. Warden still needs more changes to truly bring them in line. But damn this is a good one.

As a Warden main since release, I am proud.

Erickson9610

I don't understand why there's an arbitrary value for the Health threshold. Wouldn't it be better to provide damage done the lower your max health is, and to provide damage blocked the higher your max health is? Why is 30k the value ZOS went with to toggle the passive between an offensive or a defensive one?

Skjaldbjorn

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I don't understand why there's an arbitrary value for the Health threshold. Wouldn't it be better to provide damage done the lower your max health is, and to provide damage blocked the higher your max health is? Why is 30k the value ZOS went with to toggle the passive between an offensive or a defensive one?

Because DPS running bi-stat food can still hit like ~25-28k depending on race. They could bump it to 32k tbh. But it's better to have a simple threshold to hit. If they changed the value to scaling, running bi-stat food would become detrimental for DPS.

Kolzki

Time to slot the ebon set and troll all the wardens in group

Jsmalls

Kolzki wrote: »

Time to slot the ebon set and troll all the wardens in group

This is hilarious.

DrNukenstein

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I don't understand why there's an arbitrary value for the Health threshold. Wouldn't it be better to provide damage done the lower your max health is, and to provide damage blocked the higher your max health is? Why is 30k the value ZOS went with to toggle the passive between an offensive or a defensive one?

because 30k is the benchmark for a brawler on any class. Really it's more of a was since it's creeped up past 35k in the past few patches, but the idea is solid.

Run less health for MEANINGFULLY more damage. People aren't just running 64 in health because they have to. They're running it because 64 in mag/stam is at most going to give you like 8% more damage which is very weak compared to about 25% more health (exception, magsorc).

Now ZOS is officially saying to Wardens "you aren't a DD if you're pushing this much health". I can't wait 'til the idea reaches the other classes.

dual function passives that give damage to DD's or survivability to Tanks based on the player's stat choices. What could go wrong?

React

I'm not sure how I feel about the numbers they chose, but I will say that the mechanic of requiring lower HP to deal higher damage is a great idea and one of the first refreshing ones I've seen from zenimax in a long time.

You wouldn't want to push it to extremes, but a threshold like sub 30k for a reasonable damage buff is an excellent example of a tradeoff in survivability for damage.

xylena_lazarow

This change is absolute trash, takes away 12% damage from PvP Warden DD and replaces it with block mitigation for more stalemating instead? Screw that, give us the 12% damage back, this passive was fine before.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This change is absolute trash, takes away 12% damage from PvP Warden DD and replaces it with block mitigation for more stalemating instead? Screw that, give us the 12% damage back, this passive was fine before.

Again, flat % damage buffs is precisely why Warden got buried previously. The AC scaling damage passive back in the day made them utterly broken in PVP. They could get tanky as hell and just stack AC abilities to do more damage. There was no commitment or risk involved. I don't even PVP and I knew this lmao

NuarBlack

I hope this means frost staff can get a damage passive in the destruction staff tree. Cause while I sympathize with Stam wardens I still want my Ice mage and equipping a lightning staff feels wrong.

Personally I think a Ruffian style passive for frost staff would fit. You do bonus damage to rooted and slowed enemies

Skjaldbjorn

NuarBlack wrote: »

I hope this means frost staff can get a damage passive in the destruction staff tree. Cause while I sympathize with Stam wardens I still want my Ice mage and equipping a lightning staff feels wrong.

Personally I think a Ruffian style passive for frost staff would fit. You do bonus damage to rooted and slowed enemies

To be fair, the Frost Master's staff will still probably be quite good. Guaranteeing chilled probably still beats lightning/fire. Chilled does obscene damage.

ESO_Nightingale

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

I hope this means frost staff can get a damage passive in the destruction staff tree. Cause while I sympathize with Stam wardens I still want my Ice mage and equipping a lightning staff feels wrong.

Personally I think a Ruffian style passive for frost staff would fit. You do bonus damage to rooted and slowed enemies

To be fair, the Frost Master's staff will still probably be quite good. Guaranteeing chilled probably still beats lightning/fire. Chilled does obscene damage.

I'm going to test this on the pts when i get home from work. I doubt it's still as good. These changes sound like ice staff is dead in the water.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

I hope this means frost staff can get a damage passive in the destruction staff tree. Cause while I sympathize with Stam wardens I still want my Ice mage and equipping a lightning staff feels wrong.

Personally I think a Ruffian style passive for frost staff would fit. You do bonus damage to rooted and slowed enemies

To be fair, the Frost Master's staff will still probably be quite good. Guaranteeing chilled probably still beats lightning/fire. Chilled does obscene damage.

I'm going to test this on the pts when i get home from work. I doubt it's still as good. These changes sound like ice staff is dead in the water.

As good? Probably not. But a 4% DPS loss isn't exactly astronomical.

Pevey

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

I hope this means frost staff can get a damage passive in the destruction staff tree. Cause while I sympathize with Stam wardens I still want my Ice mage and equipping a lightning staff feels wrong.

Personally I think a Ruffian style passive for frost staff would fit. You do bonus damage to rooted and slowed enemies

To be fair, the Frost Master's staff will still probably be quite good. Guaranteeing chilled probably still beats lightning/fire. Chilled does obscene damage.

I'm going to test this on the pts when i get home from work. I doubt it's still as good. These changes sound like ice staff is dead in the water.

As good? Probably not. But a 4% DPS loss isn't exactly astronomical.

I get that you want to use daggers (just like every other class). But there's no reason this couldn't be adjusted to keep ice staff damage exactly where it is. It will still be less than daggers at 8%.

NuarBlack

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

I hope this means frost staff can get a damage passive in the destruction staff tree. Cause while I sympathize with Stam wardens I still want my Ice mage and equipping a lightning staff feels wrong.

Personally I think a Ruffian style passive for frost staff would fit. You do bonus damage to rooted and slowed enemies

To be fair, the Frost Master's staff will still probably be quite good. Guaranteeing chilled probably still beats lightning/fire. Chilled does obscene damage.

Elemental weapon exists though too. Not sure if that shifts the calculus.

Pevey

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

I hope this means frost staff can get a damage passive in the destruction staff tree. Cause while I sympathize with Stam wardens I still want my Ice mage and equipping a lightning staff feels wrong.

Personally I think a Ruffian style passive for frost staff would fit. You do bonus damage to rooted and slowed enemies

To be fair, the Frost Master's staff will still probably be quite good. Guaranteeing chilled probably still beats lightning/fire. Chilled does obscene damage.

"Still quite good" is still a 4% nerf to a build that already had the most complex rotation to hit good numbers. This is according to ppl like skinnycheeks, who parse on multiple classes and know them well, so I think that is a pretty objective assessment. Timing reach every 4 casts and shalks every 6 casts in a dynamic rotation is tough, but doable. It already wasn't pulling in tippy top numbers even with the additional difficulty curve. So why does it deserve a nerf? There is no good reason for it.

Alchimiste1

I think the overall idea is good but I propose changing the threshold to 32-33k max health.

**30k health would be a good number for diminishing returns on damage if every class was also restricted to the same amount.**

Also, wardens get minor toughness increasing their max health by 10% so I think 32-33k max health as the cutoff would be good.

Treeshka

So some dungeon buffs that you are acquiring from side bosses will reduce my damage if i am playing Warden.

Skjaldbjorn

Pevey wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

I hope this means frost staff can get a damage passive in the destruction staff tree. Cause while I sympathize with Stam wardens I still want my Ice mage and equipping a lightning staff feels wrong.

Personally I think a Ruffian style passive for frost staff would fit. You do bonus damage to rooted and slowed enemies

To be fair, the Frost Master's staff will still probably be quite good. Guaranteeing chilled probably still beats lightning/fire. Chilled does obscene damage.

"Still quite good" is still a 4% nerf to a build that already had the most complex rotation to hit good numbers. This is according to ppl like skinnycheeks, who parse on multiple classes and know them well, so I think that is a pretty objective assessment. Timing reach every 4 casts and shalks every 6 casts in a dynamic rotation is tough, but doable. It already wasn't pulling in tippy top numbers even with the additional difficulty curve. So why does it deserve a nerf? There is no good reason for it.

The bigger issue is Warden literally had one build to be quasi-viable, and it required two arena weapons, meaning zero mythic or only one 5-piece. It was a terrible, terrible spot for any class to be in. There was zero versatility. I am not in favor of nerfing Frost damage for no reason. I played the build for a bit. But opening up the Warden class to actually have build diversity is a net gain, not a loss, even if one very specific and niche build gets hurt in the short-term.

I'd also like to emphasize that my aim, from my very first forum post, was to offer direction and perspective as a Warden main in end-game PVE. I've literally been the only Stamden in a specific HM trial for an entire patch cycle on logs. I want Warden to be good. To be blunt, even if they kept the 12%, that build still isn't amazing. It's incredibly niche and only really effective on strictly single target encounters. Fights like Reef Guardian? Might as well just go full support jail, because your DPS is going to be dogwater.

It's ironic because I actually saw a Warden on logs last patch in vDSR pumping on Taleria. His numbers were terrific. The other two fights? Support jail, because he couldn't do jack on Reef and Twins. That's what desperately needed to be adjusted. Even if the single target niche setup loses some, the entirety of other Warden options improved.

This opens Warden up to run viable setups and increase their damage profile. I have no idea what Zos' eventual aims are with Warden, but I hope they will pass back around and address some of the issues "mag" Wardens have right now. However, if you actually love the Warden class as a whole and not just a niche dynamic of it, this is a huge positive.

Fourme

Well I sure wasn't expecting so much rage for something that is clearly a buff for the warden, people needs to think before writing, the ONLY let down from this patch was the arctic heal that will be much, much less useful now, I don't get the idea of this change, yes there are other healing spells the warden can use but arctic blast will be completely different from now on (at least from a pvp perspective).

However the change made to the passive was sooooo necessary and I mean, REALLY, necessary, I hated to be a warden that didn't play ice staff and get so punished because of it, I needed tankiness and damage yet I only got a little 2% buff from that passive so I had to play with an ice staff despite finding this gameplay insanely boring, (no offense we all have our preferences).

The actual meta is really restrictive and you guys should see the bright side of that change, it's as if no warden wants to play something original and stick to the easy rotation the ice staff allow us to use. Embrace change for once, also, it's only the first pts patch, who knows what the wheel of zos's random decisions will lead us next ! (please zos don't revert that change)

Pevey

They could keep the 8% (or just fix warden and put our damage back in our skills instead of in these percent bonuses) and still give ice staff an additional percent to keep it at least as viable as it is today.

For years since warden was released up until the last piercing cold change, magden was trash compared to stamden, and it will be the same again after this patch. Zos has invested a lot of time in feeding us this ice mage idea. So we invested time in developing ice mages. I’d just like to see them keep it as viable as it is on live, not nerf it.

There is no reason we can both get what we are looking for.

And master ice does just fine on reef and twins, no idea what you are talking about.

xylena_lazarow

React wrote: »

but a threshold like sub 30k for a reasonable damage buff

Doubt anyone is gonna start running 29k hp Warden DDs, they're gonna eat the damage loss or change staff setup so they can keep dropping 40k hp scaled Polars on their groups.

Arjuna1696

Really excited about this change. Stamden dps needs this love, it improves build diversity, and ice staves will only do 4% less damage and will still be strong. I love the ice theme but would also like to mix it up sometimes and front bar an inferno staff, this change makes that much more viable!