Should the vampire be completely redesigned?

GrimStyx · May 24

Yes

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think there are definitely a few things that could be tweaked with vampire

i really would like the drain, but its almost useless outside of support classes (tanks/healers) because the dmg it does is so low

the ultimate is just OK, swarming scion is basically the same as old bat swarm more or less except you cant generate ultimate while its active

eviscerate would be nice to have a ranged option as one of the morphs, honestly i think swallow soul from NB is a better vampire themed skill

the current mist form is OK as it gives a traversal skill to all classes, not quite as good as class specific ones but still better than nothing

vampire stages having a timer is just annoying, though for people who dont have a basin of loss or the foods to increase or decrease vampire stage there still needs to be some way for it to drop down in stage

stage 4 penalty of 0 hp regen is extremely annoying, make it like -90% but not -100%, its annoying when you have to be constantly casting heals as your traveling because every time you take fall dmg you are not healing it unless you actively heal it yourself

You know, there is something reasonable in this, both from the point of view of practicality and lore. I actually would like the vampire to have ranged spam with a lifesteal effect, that's why I took nighblade to make it look and work great with swallow soul, and the vampiric drain would work like radiant glory, but then developers have to redo the same ones skills of other classes so that there would be no hardcore copying, and this would definitely cause a “fire in the back lower part of body” on the part of the players, and would force the developers to strain once again, so we shouldn’t expect such innovative changes, let them at least make the vampire practical in all skills and with lore-based, although what is the validity of the lore if a Templar who uses Aedric magic can be a vampire xD, a nd at the same time, from an efficiency point of view, it looks very good, especially with Swarming Scion ult. Although given that there is now skill painting, it would be possible to come up with special vampire effects for each class, only if you have vampirism, of course. The era of the dark templars begins xD

KaironBlackbard · May 25

No

Scribing skills are still separate from normal skills. They are NEW skills. We can't scribe on current skills.

They don't have a scribing skill for Vampire, so here is my Idea.
Feed.
Gap Closer, same range as the Feed synergy.
Has an execute scaling: When behind target, bonus. When cast from stealth, bonus. Targets you can feed on, you will feed on when cast from stealth from behind the target, instakilling them and raising your stage.
Targets below 25% HP take bonus damage.
Upon kill with this ability, you feed on the target. This is an animation lock for normal feed synergy duration. Might not work on bestial or small creatures, like Shalk, giant scorpions, or Goblins.
May also heal you or fully heal you on feed/kill. Or that might be an extra token you can attach to it.

MentalxHammer · May 25

Partially rework

The only thing that really needs changing is the undeath passive. It’s a relic of the past from when major protection gave 30% mitigation. The fact that 99% of players in PvP are forced to use it should make it clear to ZOS that it needs to be rebalanced. I think the very tanky meta that has existed for years now is due in large part to that one passive.. also the increase in ability costs associated with vampire causes players to need to build for more sustain where they could be building into damage, which further exacerbates the time to kill issue.

KaironBlackbard · May 25

No

Vampires very tanky?
Even my tank Vampire doesn't last more than 2 seconds in PvP.
Even when he's T3.
He actually lasts a second longer as a T2, that perk disabled due to too low tier/stage.
He lasts longest as a stage 1.
As a stage 4? normally one tapped.
Undeath is WEAK. Useless.

GrimStyx · May 25

Yes

MentalxHammer wrote: »

The only thing that really needs changing is the undeath passive. It’s a relic of the past from when major protection gave 30% mitigation. The fact that 99% of players in PvP are forced to use it should make it clear to ZOS that it needs to be rebalanced. I think the very tanky meta that has existed for years now is due in large part to that one passive.. also the increase in ability costs associated with vampire causes players to need to build for more sustain where they could be building into damage, which further exacerbates the time to kill issue.

The problem is not that this is meta, but why it is meta, developers need to work on the cause and not on the effect, but the fact is that there are no other alternatives that increase survivability other than vampirism, if previously it was possible to accelerate health regeneration to decent values in pvp zones, now due to morale it’s impossible to do this normally, moreover, heavy armor does not give any penalties for dd, so you can use it to the fullest, and plus you get bonus from undeath, you’ll kill noobs anyway, but serious ones the players will be just as fat and with good damage, but at the same time they won’t do anything to you, just as you won’t do anything to them, and such fights can drag on forever. sustain Wretched + some good stat sets, undeath, and heavy armor 4-5, and you unkillable tank with huge sustain, self heal, and damage, so the reason is not only undeath, which is far from being the key in this situation, but a huge balance hole

xylena_lazarow · May 25

Yes

Speaking from a PvP perspective and as a vamp enjoyer:

Eviscerate and Swarming Scion are fine additions to the meta, but a better Eviscerate animation would be nice.

Blood Frenzy is only used for one-shot stealth ganking and nothing else. WTB rework.

Mesmerize is worthless due to the "facing" restriction. It would be fine as a normal fear stun like Turn Evil.

Vampiric Drain is just awful. WTB rework.

Mist was fine before they added the awkward cast delay, now it's too slow compared to Race Against Time.

Dark Stalker passive is the most fun and vampiric feeling for me, as I generally play non-NB classes.

Strike From The Shadows passive enhances Dark Stalker nicely.

Unnatural Movement passive is underwhelming given the big jump in vamp drawbacks at Stage 4.

Undeath passive breaks the PvP meta with an absurd amount of nigh free damage resistance. WTB rework.

GrimStyx · May 25

Yes

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Vampires very tanky?
Even my tank Vampire doesn't last more than 2 seconds in PvP.
Even when he's T3.
He actually lasts a second longer as a T2, that perk disabled due to too low tier/stage.
He lasts longest as a stage 1.
As a stage 4? normally one tapped.
Undeath is WEAK. Useless.

This means you have a bad build for a tank in pvp, the undeath passive is really felt when you have enormous survivability and also fuel yourself with undeath, I tested this with a friend, he with a gang build could not lower my health below 10-15%, unless hes hit a series of crits, at that time when, without this passive, he could kill me with a combination, almost constantly, and this passive is especially strong against builds with DoT or other long-term damage, for example against bash builds, they attack very quickly, but the damage is not initially high, and therefore, without a strong burst, lower your health to 0 is almost impossible. But, still, as I described above, the main problem does not lie in this passive, although if I were the developers I would temporarily cancel it and see how it would affect pvp

KaironBlackbard · May 26

No

GrimStyx wrote: »

there are no other alternatives that increase survivability other than vampirism

I last 25 times longer as a Werewolf than I do as a T3 Vampire with all passives.

KaironBlackbard · May 26

No

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Unnatural Movement passive is underwhelming given the big jump in vamp drawbacks at Stage 4.

Undeath passive breaks the PvP meta with an absurd amount of nigh free damage resistance. WTB rework.

Makes me think... Why not swap the Tier requirements of Undeath and Unnatural Movement?
Invisi-sprint at T3; Reduce damage taken when below 75% health, scaling up the lower your health, at Stage 4.

GrimStyx · May 26

Yes

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

GrimStyx wrote: »

there are no other alternatives that increase survivability other than vampirism

[snip]

I last 25 times longer as a Werewolf than I do as a T3 Vampire with all passives.

A werewolf specifically changes your gameplay, but a vampire doesn't. A werewolf is taken to play from his form, and a vampire is often taken for the sake of passiveness. By the way, this is what I was talking about, that a vampire is often needed not by those who want to be a vampire and play as a vampire with all or most of his skills (which is of questionable usefulness and very narrowly focused), but in order to plug up the shortcomings of his class or increase survivability, and these are different things, play a subclass because you are interested in it, it greatly changes your gameplay and is effective in itself, or else play it for the sake of a passive and a couple of skills

[edited to remove quote]

KaironBlackbard · May 26

No

I main Nightblades.
I also have a templar but I find the penalties of vampirism too steep a price for any passives.
My survivability will drop if I put vampirism on my templar.
The passives would be nice, but the price is too high.
I need my abilities low cost and need reduced fire damage taken, especially since 75% of enemies are Dragonknights spewing fire all over the place.
Health recovery price is fine for a templar since they are epic healers.
Nightblade? Forget it. They need their recovery, they don't have good heals. Unless they use dark cloak, but that kills their invisibility.
I am running an Orc Nightblade T1 Vamp at the moment. Pretty fun. Gets two tapped. He's only Vamp level 5, so he doesn't have full access yet. Running Fiords and medium armor. Don't even have Orc swift speed yet and I think he's already hit speed cap. Major Expedition gives no extra speed to my sprint. Got concealed slotted on back for Minor Expedition and Dark Cloak for Minor Protection and insane self heal.

GrimStyx · May 26

Yes

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

I main Nightblades.
I also have a templar but I find the penalties of vampirism too steep a price for any passives.
My survivability will drop if I put vampirism on my templar.
The passives would be nice, but the price is too high.
I need my abilities low cost and need reduced fire damage taken, especially since 75% of enemies are Dragonknights spewing fire all over the place.
Health recovery price is fine for a templar since they are epic healers.
Nightblade? Forget it. They need their recovery, they don't have good heals. Unless they use dark cloak, but that kills their invisibility.
I am running an Orc Nightblade T1 Vamp at the moment. Pretty fun. Gets two tapped. He's only Vamp level 5, so he doesn't have full access yet. Running Fiords and medium armor. Don't even have Orc swift speed yet and I think he's already hit speed cap. Major Expedition gives no extra speed to my sprint. Got concealed slotted on back for Minor Expedition and Dark Cloak for Minor Protection and insane self heal.

Because of the Battle Spirit, you still won’t be able to effectively restore your health, in addition, it further decreases during the battle, so it makes no sense to invest in its restoration, besides, if you invest in its regeneration, you will lose in something else, and the build will work not very good. Previously, yes, you could take the Troll King monster helmet, while it worked well, eat food with health regeneration, and you could already passively restore health to a good extent, but that was a long time ago, now it won’t work like that

KaironBlackbard · May 26

No

Especially not on a sprinter build a T4 for half cost and invisibility sprinting.

Palumtra · May 26

Yes

The ultimates should be looked at, for instance Perfect Scion should provide some penalty mitigation by being on the bar for instance, and they need to do something with either the cost or the duration for both.

Eviscerate - good enough spammable
Frenzy - besides the low benefit to it's cost, it should ramp faster or provide all of its bonuses upon toggling. Could provide more cost reduction for vampiric skills while increasing the cost of others.
Vampiric Drain - it's okay, one og the best ultimate builders in the game
Mesmerize - Besides allowing us to talk with NPCs at stage 4 I cannot see a practical use of this because it "only" stuns, but doesnt provide noteworthy debuffs....or buffs
Mist - Came a long road and still tries to find itself....it is okay ish now?

Passives:
Strike from the Shadows - should either provide an auto crit or provide armor pen
Undeath - should work at all stages but obviously should be weaker at lower ones and more power at high
Dark Stalker and Unnatural movement should be merged and have scaling bonuses (including detection range reduction) like the one I mentioned at Undeath

Last but not least, new or updated versions of old sets interacting with being a vampire.

KaironBlackbard · May 26

No

I was just using it in Imperial City.
Base Mesmerize it broken
they look at you, they are stunned longer than you need to kill them
When the effect ends, wait a few seconds, and they you stun them with it again.
It lasts longer than the immunity.
5 seconds.
Most stuns are no longer than 3.
It's twice the duration of most stuns.
And then I hit 15 enemies at once with it when I went dungeon crawling. That saved my butt several times.
Ya just gotta figure out how to use it and then you will wreck them.
IT CANNOT BE BLOCKED.
That is so much fun.

GrimStyx · May 27

Yes

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

I was just using it in Imperial City.
Base Mesmerize it broken
they look at you, they are stunned longer than you need to kill them
When the effect ends, wait a few seconds, and they you stun them with it again.
It lasts longer than the immunity.
5 seconds.
Most stuns are no longer than 3.
It's twice the duration of most stuns.
And then I hit 15 enemies at once with it when I went dungeon crawling. That saved my butt several times.
Ya just gotta figure out how to use it and then you will wreck them.
IT CANNOT BE BLOCKED.
That is so much fun.

I can stun enemies without having to bypass the block, and standing under the block forever won’t work either, it dries up the stamina of the one who is being attacked, unless he’s a tank, but then you won’t be able to kill him alone even with the timing of the stun. Mesmerize is bad because it is an extremely unreliable stun, experienced players will simply try not to look in your direction, and if they stand sideways it will no longer work. If you're playing on EU PC and if you want I can even show you why your build won't work as well as you think, and why the current vampire with most of his abilities is a useless so-called subclass, and just serves as a plug. I'm not trying to compare anything with you, I'm just wondering, maybe you really are a genius who created something incredibly cool from the abilities of a vampire

master_vanargand · May 27

Yes

Vampire's passive skill "Undeath" is too strong in PvP and is OP.
I'm tired of playing stage 3 vampires in PvP.
There are no freedom in this game, only powerfull meta builds and the right to use other builds and become weaker.

Let's change the vampire first.

Need change Vampire's passive skill "Undeath" to Major Resolve and Minor Resolve.
Need delete Health Recovery and Regular Ability Costs penalty to Vampire's passive skill "Feed".
Need change Vampire's passive skill "Feed" to "Flame Damage Taken: +2%/+6%/+12%/+20%".
Need change Vampire's passive skill "Feed" to "Vampire Ability Costs: -6%/-12%/-20%/-30%".

Changing the Vampire's passive skill as described above will improve PvP of game balance, and Flame damage will not be fatal when using the Vampire in PvE.
With this change, PvP players will regain freedom and Vampires will regain their "regenerating monster" lore.

KaironBlackbard · May 27

No

GrimStyx wrote: »

and if they stand sideways

they cannot attack you. Useless maneuver. If they are attacking you, they are looking at you. That's when you stun them.

KaironBlackbard · May 27

No

master_vanargand wrote: »

Flame damage will not be fatal when using the Vampire in PvE.

I don't know what you've been doing, but flame damage is weak in PvE.
It's PvP Flame damage that kills us.
75% of enemies are fire spitting dragonkights.
They are our worst nightmare.

KaironBlackbard · May 27

No

The only trouble I really have in PvP are Soulbranders (Imperial City.)
I can solo them, but when they have a following, it makes it tougher.
Especially when they have a Pyromancer with them.

KaironBlackbard · May 28

No

Ah, here's an idea.
Vamps should either receive more healing, or heal for percent of damage they deal at all times, or both.
The heal from damage dealt percent should be less than scion's, like 7% or something.
Doubtful it would stack, but that would be fun.
Could be based off tier, or have a flat value activated at a certain stage/tier.

olsborg · May 28

Firstmep wrote: »

I think undeath needs to be replaced with some other passive, it's simply too strong for pvp.

I second this, very,very strongly. Yes.

xylena_lazarow · May 28

Yes

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Makes me think... Why not swap the Tier requirements of Undeath and Unnatural Movement? Invisi-sprint at T3; Reduce damage taken when below 75% health, scaling up the lower your health, at Stage 4

I like the simplicity of this idea, it's been suggested quite a few times over the years by PvPers, but there would 100% still be builds with enough sustain to exploit it, such as the high hp Warden healers grinding fights to a halt. Another one I've seen a lot is Major Protection under 50% hp or similar. Same spirit, more reasonable numbers, less stackable. Personally I'd like to see a total rework into something not tank related.

KaironBlackbard · May 28

No

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major Protection under 50% hp or similar.

Ehem. Flare slotted, Major Protection at all times.
Dark Cloak or Precognition slotted, Minor Protection at all times.
Jailbreaker set equipped, Minor Protection at all times.

KaironBlackbard · May 28

No

I don't know what builds those guys are running, but I've tried a hundred PvP builds as vampire and all have gotten me killed swiftly.
Undeath is useless.
You're better off using a werewolf or non-cursed character.

Necrotech_Master · May 28

Partially rework

GrimStyx wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think there are definitely a few things that could be tweaked with vampire

i really would like the drain, but its almost useless outside of support classes (tanks/healers) because the dmg it does is so low

the ultimate is just OK, swarming scion is basically the same as old bat swarm more or less except you cant generate ultimate while its active

eviscerate would be nice to have a ranged option as one of the morphs, honestly i think swallow soul from NB is a better vampire themed skill

the current mist form is OK as it gives a traversal skill to all classes, not quite as good as class specific ones but still better than nothing

vampire stages having a timer is just annoying, though for people who dont have a basin of loss or the foods to increase or decrease vampire stage there still needs to be some way for it to drop down in stage

stage 4 penalty of 0 hp regen is extremely annoying, make it like -90% but not -100%, its annoying when you have to be constantly casting heals as your traveling because every time you take fall dmg you are not healing it unless you actively heal it yourself

You know, there is something reasonable in this, both from the point of view of practicality and lore. I actually would like the vampire to have ranged spam with a lifesteal effect, that's why I took nighblade to make it look and work great with swallow soul, and the vampiric drain would work like radiant glory, but then developers have to redo the same ones skills of other classes so that there would be no hardcore copying, and this would definitely cause a “fire in the back lower part of body” on the part of the players, and would force the developers to strain once again, so we shouldn’t expect such innovative changes, let them at least make the vampire practical in all skills and with lore-based, although what is the validity of the lore if a Templar who uses Aedric magic can be a vampire xD, a nd at the same time, from an efficiency point of view, it looks very good, especially with Swarming Scion ult. Although given that there is now skill painting, it would be possible to come up with special vampire effects for each class, only if you have vampirism, of course. The era of the dark templars begins xD

i think if they just increased the dmg on the drain it would probably be more useful, not a full replacement for dps skills because its still a 3 sec channel, but the current dmg is like 3k per tick at most, 3k per second but not allowing you to do anything else is not great unless you already had some dots running

also not a huge fan of the "heal based on missing health" from the current drain either

the only part thats really nice with the current drain is the ulti gen

GrimStyx · May 28

Yes

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

GrimStyx wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think there are definitely a few things that could be tweaked with vampire

i really would like the drain, but its almost useless outside of support classes (tanks/healers) because the dmg it does is so low

the ultimate is just OK, swarming scion is basically the same as old bat swarm more or less except you cant generate ultimate while its active

eviscerate would be nice to have a ranged option as one of the morphs, honestly i think swallow soul from NB is a better vampire themed skill

the current mist form is OK as it gives a traversal skill to all classes, not quite as good as class specific ones but still better than nothing

vampire stages having a timer is just annoying, though for people who dont have a basin of loss or the foods to increase or decrease vampire stage there still needs to be some way for it to drop down in stage

stage 4 penalty of 0 hp regen is extremely annoying, make it like -90% but not -100%, its annoying when you have to be constantly casting heals as your traveling because every time you take fall dmg you are not healing it unless you actively heal it yourself

You know, there is something reasonable in this, both from the point of view of practicality and lore. I actually would like the vampire to have ranged spam with a lifesteal effect, that's why I took nighblade to make it look and work great with swallow soul, and the vampiric drain would work like radiant glory, but then developers have to redo the same ones skills of other classes so that there would be no hardcore copying, and this would definitely cause a “fire in the back lower part of body” on the part of the players, and would force the developers to strain once again, so we shouldn’t expect such innovative changes, let them at least make the vampire practical in all skills and with lore-based, although what is the validity of the lore if a Templar who uses Aedric magic can be a vampire xD, a nd at the same time, from an efficiency point of view, it looks very good, especially with Swarming Scion ult. Although given that there is now skill painting, it would be possible to come up with special vampire effects for each class, only if you have vampirism, of course. The era of the dark templars begins xD

i think if they just increased the dmg on the drain it would probably be more useful, not a full replacement for dps skills because its still a 3 sec channel, but the current dmg is like 3k per tick at most, 3k per second but not allowing you to do anything else is not great unless you already had some dots running

also not a huge fan of the "heal based on missing health" from the current drain either

the only part thats really nice with the current drain is the ulti gen

Exactly, 3k damage per second, despite the fact that you do nothing and you can easily end up stunned or off balance, or even killed if you don’t interrupt the skill, put the block and use burst healing, makes this skill not very good. The regeneration of ult points is of course good, but you won’t be satisfied with it alone, moreover, as long as you gain ultimate points in battle with this skill, you will be practically useless, even for yourself. So yeah, I definitely don't like this skill

GrimStyx · May 28

Yes

This is what Vampiric Drain should look like for a adequate vampire xD I'm just kidding...

KaironBlackbard · May 29

No

That looks like Neverwinter, but a top-down version and slightly different bar.
Same Q&E for skills and clicks for at wills.

Necrotech_Master · May 29

Partially rework

GrimStyx wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

GrimStyx wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think there are definitely a few things that could be tweaked with vampire

i really would like the drain, but its almost useless outside of support classes (tanks/healers) because the dmg it does is so low

the ultimate is just OK, swarming scion is basically the same as old bat swarm more or less except you cant generate ultimate while its active

eviscerate would be nice to have a ranged option as one of the morphs, honestly i think swallow soul from NB is a better vampire themed skill

the current mist form is OK as it gives a traversal skill to all classes, not quite as good as class specific ones but still better than nothing

vampire stages having a timer is just annoying, though for people who dont have a basin of loss or the foods to increase or decrease vampire stage there still needs to be some way for it to drop down in stage

stage 4 penalty of 0 hp regen is extremely annoying, make it like -90% but not -100%, its annoying when you have to be constantly casting heals as your traveling because every time you take fall dmg you are not healing it unless you actively heal it yourself

You know, there is something reasonable in this, both from the point of view of practicality and lore. I actually would like the vampire to have ranged spam with a lifesteal effect, that's why I took nighblade to make it look and work great with swallow soul, and the vampiric drain would work like radiant glory, but then developers have to redo the same ones skills of other classes so that there would be no hardcore copying, and this would definitely cause a “fire in the back lower part of body” on the part of the players, and would force the developers to strain once again, so we shouldn’t expect such innovative changes, let them at least make the vampire practical in all skills and with lore-based, although what is the validity of the lore if a Templar who uses Aedric magic can be a vampire xD, a nd at the same time, from an efficiency point of view, it looks very good, especially with Swarming Scion ult. Although given that there is now skill painting, it would be possible to come up with special vampire effects for each class, only if you have vampirism, of course. The era of the dark templars begins xD

i think if they just increased the dmg on the drain it would probably be more useful, not a full replacement for dps skills because its still a 3 sec channel, but the current dmg is like 3k per tick at most, 3k per second but not allowing you to do anything else is not great unless you already had some dots running

also not a huge fan of the "heal based on missing health" from the current drain either

the only part thats really nice with the current drain is the ulti gen

Exactly, 3k damage per second, despite the fact that you do nothing and you can easily end up stunned or off balance, or even killed if you don’t interrupt the skill, put the block and use burst healing, makes this skill not very good. The regeneration of ult points is of course good, but you won’t be satisfied with it alone, moreover, as long as you gain ultimate points in battle with this skill, you will be practically useless, even for yourself. So yeah, I definitely don't like this skill

the most use ive seen for the drain is for supports in some trials (such as off tanks) to get ult back faster if there isnt a need for the 2nd tank at the moment