[Suggestion] Floating Position Markers

Raccoonmancer

Hey everyone, hope you're all having a grand day. Let me get to the meat of this post now.

I'm surprised that ESO in the ten years that it has been around, doesn't have floating position markers by now (if you need a reference for what I'm referring to, think of the WoW raid markers that you can place anywhere on the ground, they are permanent until removed and accessible/visible only in groups to the groups that are present, to signal players where to stand during mechanics or just in general to mark down positioning) - this is an addition that I think would be welcomed by pretty much everyone and it shouldn't be too hard to implement either.

Raid Marker Reference below from WoW, but obviously would be TES styled.




This is a function that would allow for a lot more QoL when it comes to PVE Trials and also PVP positioning and group herding.

It would also be a great tool for those that might be RP inclined within the game, so that they don't have to spend countless hours describing where a mob is positioned in the Overworld.

It would be cool to see this in Gold Road, so if you're with me, let's try to bring attention to this, eh?

Would love to also hear the thoughts of devs on this.

Cheers, hope you a solid day onwards!

Necrotech_Master

its way way too late for it to be added with gold road, since that releases in less than 3 weeks lol, likely if this would even be on the devs radar it wouldnt likely be in any update until next year

there are some addons that can do this, but that doesnt display it for the group unless everyone is running it (namely elm's markers)

but my understanding is the addon is kind of "hacky" in that it has to be constantly re-drawing the marker in the 3d gamespace for every movement of the camera

there is also an API for 3d pins in the game, which addons like harvest map utilize, but this API is disabled inside of instances like dungeons and trials

Raccoonmancer

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its way way too late for it to be added with gold road, since that releases in less than 3 weeks lol, likely if this would even be on the devs radar it wouldnt likely be in any update until next year

there are some addons that can do this, but that doesnt display it for the group unless everyone is running it (namely elm's markers)

but my understanding is the addon is kind of "hacky" in that it has to be constantly re-drawing the marker in the 3d gamespace for every movement of the camera

there is also an API for 3d pins in the game, which addons like harvest map utilize, but this API is disabled inside of instances like dungeons and trials

It very likely may be too late to get it included in Gold Road, but at the same time, bringing it to their attention would be beneficial The sooner we let our voice be heard, the sooner there's a chance for it to be implemented and hey, miracles do happen and this is a very -small- thing to add that is arguably a huge QoL for a lot of interested parties, so I wouldn't say it is entirely out of the scope of possibility to be added until Gold Road (dreams, I know, but hey).

I'm aware that addons can do what I'm proposing here, but this should be a base game feature and not something powered by a third party addon.

El_Borracho

It took over 8 years for them to put in icons you can choose to show who the tank and healers are. Maybe we can have this by 2032.

CoolBlast3

As an RPer, I'd love this ^^

Ashevajak

I'd just like to add I'd also find this incredibly useful, and would like to voice my own support for it. Gold Road is definitely a bit too soon to see it happen, but I'd definitely like for it to be added to the list of QoL improvements the game could use.

code65536

What @Necrotech_Master said is correct; years ago they added API for drawing things in the 3D space, but they disabled that API inside dungeons and trials for the explicit purpose of not wanting things drawn on the ground for aiding mechanics.

This is why you will never see Harvest Map pins inside a dungeon or trial, because Harvest Map uses that 3D API, which is disabled inside dungeons and trials.

Because of the reason for why they disabled this API, it seems unlikely that they'll add the kind of feature that you are asking for.

(There is a loophole that allows addons to effectively bypass this restriction, and that's because ZOS neglected to restrict the API for determining where something would appear from your camera's perspective. Using that API, it is possible for an addon to place an object in 2D space and position it in a way that it appears as though it exists in the 3D space. This is exactly what Ody's Support Icons do, and there has since been a plethora of addons that use this feature of OSI to draw markers on the ground. This is rather hackish and not terribly efficient. And of course contrary to ZOS's reasons for restricting the 3D API in the first place.)

Raccoonmancer

code65536 wrote: »

What @Necrotech_Master said is correct; years ago they added API for drawing things in the 3D space, but they disabled that API inside dungeons and trials for the explicit purpose of not wanting things drawn on the ground for aiding mechanics.

If that's actually the case - it feels very much as an anti player decision. I legitimately cannot see a downside to planning out a fight via markers VS taking a map of the area and drawing positions on it. One is just a lot more work and tedium than the other.

I hope that over the years their stance on this has changed, but only time will tell on this one. Just feels like a very odd choice to make - because the chance of a random group that has formed to sit down and actually discuss strategy is very minor at best if they have to take the extra step of drawing up a map. Markers at least would allow people to communicate much better in a randomized setting.

Expecting people to DL addons also shouldn't be the norm for something that should by all means, be in the base game. I hope they make use of what they've already introduced in the game - seeing as the API is already in it, should make it even easier to implement than if it wasn't.

code65536

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

I hope that over the years their stance on this has changed

People didn't realize that the loophole existed until OSI was created over 3 years ago. By that point, it had already been 5 years since the 3D API was added.

The API patch notes from Q4 2016 stated:

However, the decision was made to privatize these functions to prevent addons from trivializing some dungeon mechanics by drawing markers on the ground in 3D space.

It's entirely possible that, after those 5 years, ZOS had stopped caring. It's possible that the people who made that decision have changed their minds. Or maybe even left. What we do know is that a number of addons have been "drawing markers on the ground" for mechanics for almost 3 years now, and in all this time, ZOS has not made a move to close off that loophole (which they can do quite easily).

But if they did have a change of heart, I'd rather that they remove those restrictions from the 3D API, so that people don't have to keep using that kludgy loophole. Either way, I want to see the use of that loophole stopped, either by closing it off or by opening the API so that the loophole can be rendered obsolete.

SilverBride

I hear complaints about how the game is too easy then I see suggestions to mark where the player needs to stand rather than learning the mechanics.

Do players want a challenge or do they want bosses made easier?

Raccoonmancer

SilverBride wrote: »

I hear complaints about how the game is too easy then I see suggestions to mark where the player needs to stand rather than learning the mechanics.

Do players want a challenge or do they want bosses made easier?

Nothing wrong with having the option for those that want it. If you want a harder experience, you can simply find a guild that caters to your needs and does it without markers.

Having the option is always better than not having the option and I've never really complained about the difficulty either in this post or on the forum.

Also, having markers on the ground doesn't really make the boss any easier. Players still need to stand in them and be actively aware of what a mechanic does. If I place down marker A, B, C, D, E, etc. with 0 context to it - people will have no clue as to why to stand there. -IF- anything, the markers would actively encourage people to learn the mechanics more as instead of mashing buttons and having herd mentality, they would know why they're there in the first place.

Again, having the option vs not having it is always going to be better. Don't like it? Don't need to use it.

I've seen it mentioned in this thread as well, but for RPers this in specific would be very beneficial, as I've already mentioned in the post as well, so let's not try and ruin the fun for others that could benefit from it.

SilverBride

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

Also, having markers on the ground doesn't really make the boss any easier.

Then what is the point of having them?

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

let's not try and ruin the fun for others that could benefit from it.

Having a different opinion is not ruining the fun for anyone. Trial bosses are supposed to be challenging and have mechanics that need learned. I feel that this would take away from the challenge.

Necrotech_Master

personally i think using addons for this job is better, i dont like the markers (i dont even use the addons that do the markers in trials like ody's support icons or elm's markers)

that way each person can choose if they want to see markers or not

the ones your asking to implement would be an eye-sore in trials and add to the clutter and create distraction to the encounter

i would agree with code that they should get rid of the loophole, either disabling, or enabling that capability fully for addons

Raccoonmancer

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the ones your asking to implement would be an eye-sore in trials and add to the clutter and create distraction to the encounter

Well, I'm not asking for these exact ones to be implemented. The design optimally would be more subtle, like most of ESO's design is - its nowhere near as flashy as WoW's, I dislike WoW's markers as well, but I've seen markers in other games that are done well and minimalistic. The way I see ESO markers working if they were made, would be for them to simply have the icon hover over a piece of ground and that would basically be enough.

Doesn't need to have a light beam attached to it or anything of the sort. The icons that are already available would just be placed over the ground and left to hover there, hell, they could even be still so that no animation needs to be made.

But we'll have to agree to disagree - I don't think that something like this should be handled by addons - most MMO's have this as a base functionality (I think all major ones except for ESO actually have it). What could be done to meet in the middle here is a simple solution. Give people that do not want to see the markers, an option to disable it. Satisfies those that don't want to have them and satisfies those that do want to have them, seeing as that is your main gripe with it.

It is better to have the option should it ever be needed - than to not have it.

Raccoonmancer

SilverBride wrote: »

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

Also, having markers on the ground doesn't really make the boss any easier.

Then what is the point of having them?

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

let's not try and ruin the fun for others that could benefit from it.

Having a different opinion is not ruining the fun for anyone. Trial bosses are supposed to be challenging and have mechanics that need learned. I feel that this would take away from the challenge.

It can help other parts of the community, who may have need of them. I presented PVE primarily as an example, but the markers as could be seen above, would be a boon in other places as well. If you do not want to use them, no one is forcing you to use them.

I'm merely saying that having the option to have them, would be nice.

SilverBride

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

I'm merely saying that having the option to have them, would be nice.

That is fine. I just have a different opinion.

Necrotech_Master

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the ones your asking to implement would be an eye-sore in trials and add to the clutter and create distraction to the encounter

Well, I'm not asking for these exact ones to be implemented. The design optimally would be more subtle, like most of ESO's design is - its nowhere near as flashy as WoW's, I dislike WoW's markers as well, but I've seen markers in other games that are done well and minimalistic. The way I see ESO markers working if they were made, would be for them to simply have the icon hover over a piece of ground and that would basically be enough.

Doesn't need to have a light beam attached to it or anything of the sort. The icons that are already available would just be placed over the ground and left to hover there, hell, they could even be still so that no animation needs to be made.

But we'll have to agree to disagree - I don't think that something like this should be handled by addons - most MMO's have this as a base functionality (I think all major ones except for ESO actually have it). What could be done to meet in the middle here is a simple solution. Give people that do not want to see the markers, an option to disable it. Satisfies those that don't want to have them and satisfies those that do want to have them, seeing as that is your main gripe with it.

It is better to have the option should it ever be needed - than to not have it.

well for me it doesnt matter, i think any of these ground markings would be too much clutter and i dont want to see them, the ones your wanting to add sound like they could be seen by anyone in the group which is something i do not want

an addon solution would be something only you could see, which is why i would advocate them cleaning up the API for that so people could use it if they wanted

Raccoonmancer

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the ones your asking to implement would be an eye-sore in trials and add to the clutter and create distraction to the encounter

Well, I'm not asking for these exact ones to be implemented. The design optimally would be more subtle, like most of ESO's design is - its nowhere near as flashy as WoW's, I dislike WoW's markers as well, but I've seen markers in other games that are done well and minimalistic. The way I see ESO markers working if they were made, would be for them to simply have the icon hover over a piece of ground and that would basically be enough.

Doesn't need to have a light beam attached to it or anything of the sort. The icons that are already available would just be placed over the ground and left to hover there, hell, they could even be still so that no animation needs to be made.

But we'll have to agree to disagree - I don't think that something like this should be handled by addons - most MMO's have this as a base functionality (I think all major ones except for ESO actually have it). What could be done to meet in the middle here is a simple solution. Give people that do not want to see the markers, an option to disable it. Satisfies those that don't want to have them and satisfies those that do want to have them, seeing as that is your main gripe with it.

It is better to have the option should it ever be needed - than to not have it.

well for me it doesnt matter, i think any of these ground markings would be too much clutter and i dont want to see them, the ones your wanting to add sound like they could be seen by anyone in the group which is something i do not want

an addon solution would be something only you could see, which is why i would advocate them cleaning up the API for that so people could use it if they wanted

Correct. They would be seen by anyone in the group, but at the same time, you, as the individual, would have an option to disable them all together or keep them. No harm, no foul. People that don't want them, can simply not see them.

Players shouldn't be forced to download a third party tool to have something that is baseline experience for all the major MMO's.

Necrotech_Master

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the ones your asking to implement would be an eye-sore in trials and add to the clutter and create distraction to the encounter

Well, I'm not asking for these exact ones to be implemented. The design optimally would be more subtle, like most of ESO's design is - its nowhere near as flashy as WoW's, I dislike WoW's markers as well, but I've seen markers in other games that are done well and minimalistic. The way I see ESO markers working if they were made, would be for them to simply have the icon hover over a piece of ground and that would basically be enough.

Doesn't need to have a light beam attached to it or anything of the sort. The icons that are already available would just be placed over the ground and left to hover there, hell, they could even be still so that no animation needs to be made.

But we'll have to agree to disagree - I don't think that something like this should be handled by addons - most MMO's have this as a base functionality (I think all major ones except for ESO actually have it). What could be done to meet in the middle here is a simple solution. Give people that do not want to see the markers, an option to disable it. Satisfies those that don't want to have them and satisfies those that do want to have them, seeing as that is your main gripe with it.

It is better to have the option should it ever be needed - than to not have it.

well for me it doesnt matter, i think any of these ground markings would be too much clutter and i dont want to see them, the ones your wanting to add sound like they could be seen by anyone in the group which is something i do not want

an addon solution would be something only you could see, which is why i would advocate them cleaning up the API for that so people could use it if they wanted

Correct. They would be seen by anyone in the group, but at the same time, you, as the individual, would have an option to disable them all together or keep them. No harm, no foul. People that don't want them, can simply not see them.

Players shouldn't be forced to download a third party tool to have something that is baseline experience for all the major MMO's.

if they were implemented in the same fashion as the target markers we were given, there is no option to disable those that im aware of

while it is nicer if it is implemented in game vs an addon, sometimes the zos implementation is lacking features, or even the option to turn it off if you dont want it (target markers is one of them for example)

this was handled by an addon (ody's support icons), but then implemented in game by zos (target markers), and theres no option to "opt out" or disable them

Sin_Arcain

I would love to have this option! As a roleplayer myself, I have been sorely missing this feature after WoW. It would help representing the location of NPCs and objects.

As to its effect on other parts of the game, I think it wouldn't make the 'game' or its 'mechanics' easier but it would help with communication, and that in my opinion is a plus. Then we can forgo people having to jump up and down in place to point out the location of something. xD

Raccoonmancer

Sin_Arcain wrote: »

I would love to have this option! As a roleplayer myself, I have been sorely missing this feature after WoW. It would help representing the location of NPCs and objects.

As to its effect on other parts of the game, I think it wouldn't make the 'game' or its 'mechanics' easier but it would help with communication, and that in my opinion is a plus. Then we can forgo people having to jump up and down in place to point out the location of something. xD

Absolutely agree on this. Its a boon when it comes to communication, especially when it comes down to RP. I have quite a handful of friends that tend to actively DM and I actually think this is their number one complaint about something that ESO does not have and they would love to see in the game.

Even if it was restricted from Trials and Dungeons, it would still be a boon to others, because as of right now, there isn't a way to represent NPC's and or objects in any way in the overworld, except having another player stand in their place, which is less than optimal, because ultimately you would want to have all your players partaking in the event.

Sanguiness130

Having gone from ESO to WoW and back a few times, I can say that having some kind of icon system for groups would be a MASSIVE help, with regards to PvE, PvP and RP alike.
Even if just for the sake of making it easier to communicate with your teammates, and limited by it being tagged onto pre-existing NPCs instead of on random world spots, it would at least be SOMETHING.

Idelise

Honestly, I think it would be a great change. There are marker addons already, why would it be such a bad thing if these made it to the game proper?
If people don't want to use them, they don't need to.

SilverBride

Idelise wrote: »

If people don't want to use them, they don't need to.

That may not be an option. I imagine that if someone in the group uses them then everyone will see them, just like the current target markers.

Raccoonmancer

SilverBride wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

If people don't want to use them, they don't need to.

That may not be an option. I imagine that if someone in the group uses them then everyone will see them, just like the current target markers.

Here's to hoping that if it was implemented, it would be done in such a way that people could toggle whether or not they want to see it. A change like that is minor in code.

SilverBride

Raccoonmancer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

If people don't want to use them, they don't need to.

That may not be an option. I imagine that if someone in the group uses them then everyone will see them, just like the current target markers.

Here's to hoping that if it was implemented, it would be done in such a way that people could toggle whether or not they want to see it. A change like that is minor in code.

They didn't do it with the target markers so I am not confident they would make these optional either.

darth_nugget

This would be an amazing addition! I hope to see it implemented since it'd be great for Rp events and keeping track of enemies or important points to mark Saves up a ton of time and is extremely convenient. A game changing tool.

N00BxV1

This game often does a very poor job at telegraphing a lot of important information. And sometimes trying to read subtle tells amidst the chaos and visual effects can be a tough thing to do...

For example: A boss was about to do a one-shot heavy attack and the game only telegraphed this by briefly displaying "speed lines" above the boss' head, but I couldn't see it because my screen was filled with another player's visual effects that was obstructing my view (like another player's Maw of the Infernal, plopped right on top of my character and covering its entire model, and obstructing my view of the boss). I knew about the mechanic, and I knew that the mechanic was eventually gonna happen, but I just didn't know exactly when the mechanic would happen. And at that exact moment when the mechanic did happen, I couldn't see it because my view was obstructed by another player's visual effects... That's not "difficulty", that's just annoying and bad design (or lack of better telegraphs)...

I never used combat-related addons in the past. I always tried to learn what was happening on the screen or just wing it until I figured it out. But lately I've tried some of the combat addons, and let me tell you it's a world of difference when you have something actually alerting you of a mechanic that you may not even see happening, because it's either off screen or hidden by tons of other visual effects that are obstructing your view.

So in my opinion, anything that could help with the relaying of more useful information is always a good thing.

PS:
What does the ingame setting for "Show Additional Ally Effects" even do!? Because I turn this setting off but my screen is still covered with non-essential visual effects from other players... Make this setting actually disable all non-essential visual effects from other players!