The problem of fake roles

Warhawke_80 · May 15

RomanRex wrote: »

DonHardstyle wrote: »

So i que as healer and get a group instant. Nope i do not slot a group heal either. And nope i also wil not stop queueing as healer.

this isn’t a solo game.

if you want to cue for a group event and purposefully don’t do what you said you would when you cued, it’s mega trolly. you can’t even slot one heal? like wtf?

create a group finder and label it “LF 3 other DPS for daily random”

On the contrary, this is very much a solo game.

90% of the content in ESO is solo the least amount of content played..that is content played the least is group content. In fact, in most MMORPG's Raids are the least participated in yet most expensive content to create.

Also, we just can't point to people and say "This game isn't for you go away" Not only is it rude... I'm pretty sure that is against the TOS...though, there certainly are small cells of players who want that kind of power which if you think about it is scary

... or maybe not...I don't know which way you swing on that one.

Anyway

For me I play what some call fake Tanks and healers all the time never once have I died in a dungeon or Trial. The Trinity was a terrible idea for an Elder Scrolls game and no one but no one is forcing me into some outdated concept of roles, but no one is trying to do that to me or anyone else... in fact the only place I hear complaints about that are these forums and always by the same handful of people.

TKo_ROUSE · May 15

Root of the issue: I think the issue comes down to rewards. Most vet players doing RND are going for transmutes. Most vet players want to do things efficiently so they queue as a healer or tank and just nuke everything.

How to fix: There are probably a couple ways to address it but no method will be perfect and likely have some negative consequences. One option: Put transmute rewards around other activities that are more efficient than running random dailies. Honestly i feel more transmutes should be given out for raiding. Hoping that this draws away those going for pure efficiency. Maybe at the same time you could buff xp rewards to entice more casual players to queue up.

They could also buff transmutes from pledge rewards as well to incentivize people to form groups to do those to farm transmutes. Honestly as long as RND gives 10 transmutes for such a little time investment it is probably going to be hard to get people to not take advantage of that. They could take the transmute reward away but that could just straight kill RND for players outside the super casual wanting to check out a dungeon. (not saying I want them to do it, just spit balling)

Araneae6537 · May 15

IMHO, the larger problem is that random normal dungeons should not be a quick and easy way to get transmutes. Normal dungeons should be for new players, those learning a new role, or who otherwise want an easier casual experience — NOT for getting into and blasting through the fastest way possible. Thus we have frequent complaints about people queuing for roles they have no intention of filling and complaints about people running through, breaking quests, and generally creating an unpleasant experience. This does NOT help new players at all and is a rather terrible introduction to dungeons. Yes, players would ideally be more considerate and form separate groups to queue for speed-runs or check with the rest of the group when PUGging, but so long as the system is setup to reward selfish behavior, it will continue.

Sakiri · May 15

If they put transmutes in more desirable places or heck, even the crown store, people wouldn't be faking their way in dungeons.

And not doing your roles job in a dungeon should be a reportable offense, like in every other game I've played. It's trolling. At least slot a dang heal or taunt. This ain't guild wars

MidniteOwl1913 · May 15

El_Borracho wrote: »

If you can't get through normal Darkshade 1 with a fake tank, a real tank is not going to help.

Um, no. The tank is supposed to keep the ads and the boss from focusing on the DD so they can perform their role. Maybe with a real tank they could do that. The base game normal dungeons open (some do) at level 10 and not all of those level 10 players are just leveling alts. Begining players need the support roles to do the job they signed up for.

MidniteOwl1913 · May 15

Yeah, I think the only way to fix the problem is to get rid of the transmutes, or reduce the rewards for normals and raise them for vet dungeons.

And from my point of view as a healer, even if the tank has a taunt if they don't stay with the party and fulfill the role they are fake. Tank is a support role if you don't do that because you are running to finish as fast as possible then you are a fake.

El_Borracho · May 15

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

If you can't get through normal Darkshade 1 with a fake tank, a real tank is not going to help.

Um, no. The tank is supposed to keep the ads and the boss from focusing on the DD so they can perform their role. Maybe with a real tank they could do that. The base game normal dungeons open (some do) at level 10 and not all of those level 10 players are just leveling alts. Begining players need the support roles to do the job they signed up for.

Again, this comes down to fake tanks only being a problem with low DPS groups. You could have a "tank" with a bow spamming Snipe in normal Darkshade 1 and a group with a two decent DDs who know what they are doing and they will make you forget all about the fake tank. Even with a brand newbie Level 10 DD in group.

I think people are trying to conflate normal with veteran dungeons. You need a tank in most veteran dungeons. You can do all of the normal dungeons without a tank. Heck, a lot of players can solo the normal dungeons.

MidniteOwl1913 · May 15

El_Borracho wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

If you can't get through normal Darkshade 1 with a fake tank, a real tank is not going to help.

Um, no. The tank is supposed to keep the ads and the boss from focusing on the DD so they can perform their role. Maybe with a real tank they could do that. The base game normal dungeons open (some do) at level 10 and not all of those level 10 players are just leveling alts. Begining players need the support roles to do the job they signed up for.

Again, this comes down to fake tanks only being a problem with low DPS groups. You could have a "tank" with a bow spamming Snipe in normal Darkshade 1 and a group with a two decent DDs who know what they are doing and they will make you forget all about the fake tank. Even with a brand newbie Level 10 DD in group.

I think people are trying to conflate normal with veteran dungeons. You need a tank in most veteran dungeons. You can do all of the normal dungeons without a tank. Heck, a lot of players can solo the normal dungeons.

I often load into a dungeon where *all* of the other players are very low-level. Many times I know it would be faster if I just soloed the dungeon, but that's not what a support role does. I think providing a place for players to learn is important and watching new players start to learn tanking is fun for me. But I'm in it for the content, not the rewards.

Desiato · May 15

This debate is completely academic. Everyone could agree and it wouldn't change anything in the game.

The bottom line is own your decision to play in a PUG and be prepared to deal with the worst. Recognize you may be setting yourself up for a bad time. Especially if you're crazy enough to pug vet content.

sarahthes · May 15

Sakiri wrote: »

If they put transmutes in more desirable places or heck, even the crown store, people wouldn't be faking their way in dungeons.

And not doing your roles job in a dungeon should be a reportable offense, like in every other game I've played. It's trolling. At least slot a dang heal or taunt. This ain't guild wars

Transmutes got put in random dungeons when they added the stickerbook to the game. Because when you increase the transmutes used you need to increase the sources.

They need to keep transmutes in random normals because they are easily accessible to even the most casual player.

Soarora · May 15

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Yeah, I think the only way to fix the problem is to get rid of the transmutes, or reduce the rewards for normals and raise them for vet dungeons.

And from my point of view as a healer, even if the tank has a taunt if they don't stay with the party and fulfill the role they are fake. Tank is a support role if you don't do that because you are running to finish as fast as possible then you are a fake.

I once held the opinion that the rewards should be raised for vet dungeons, but I don't think moving the problem more into the vet queue is a good idea. Instead, maybe keep the normal and vet queue rewards as they are now but increase the amount of transmute you get from all pledges (and fix the darn DLC HM geodes). Maybe also add decent transmute rewards for completing a trial quest. It could work out to be:
- Random normal: 10
- Random vet: 10 or 15
- Normal nondlc pledge: 5
- Normal dlc pledge: 10
- Vet nondlc pledge: 10
- Vet dlc pledge: 15
- HM nondlc pledge: 15
- HM DLC pledge: 25
- Trial daily quest: 25
- Leaderboard reward: 50

People who like the content will do the content regardless of the transmute rewards. Encouraging DLC HM paves a way for people to become more interested in dungeon endgame, instead of dungeons just being a path to transmute.

El_Borracho · May 15

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

If you can't get through normal Darkshade 1 with a fake tank, a real tank is not going to help.

Um, no. The tank is supposed to keep the ads and the boss from focusing on the DD so they can perform their role. Maybe with a real tank they could do that. The base game normal dungeons open (some do) at level 10 and not all of those level 10 players are just leveling alts. Begining players need the support roles to do the job they signed up for.

Again, this comes down to fake tanks only being a problem with low DPS groups. You could have a "tank" with a bow spamming Snipe in normal Darkshade 1 and a group with a two decent DDs who know what they are doing and they will make you forget all about the fake tank. Even with a brand newbie Level 10 DD in group.

I think people are trying to conflate normal with veteran dungeons. You need a tank in most veteran dungeons. You can do all of the normal dungeons without a tank. Heck, a lot of players can solo the normal dungeons.

I often load into a dungeon where *all* of the other players are very low-level. Many times I know it would be faster if I just soloed the dungeon, but that's not what a support role does. I think providing a place for players to learn is important and watching new players start to learn tanking is fun for me. But I'm in it for the content, not the rewards.

I agree with this. I do the same, but as a tank or healer on vet. I also could care less about the rewards as I have more transmutes than I know what to do with without trying to farm them. But if I happen to run with someone on a random normal (i.e. leveling a guildie) I'm running on a DD

RomanRex · May 15

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

DonHardstyle wrote: »

So i que as healer and get a group instant. Nope i do not slot a group heal either. And nope i also wil not stop queueing as healer.

this isn’t a solo game.

if you want to cue for a group event and purposefully don’t do what you said you would when you cued, it’s mega trolly. you can’t even slot one heal? like wtf?

create a group finder and label it “LF 3 other DPS for daily random”

On the contrary, this is very much a solo game.

90% of the content in ESO is solo the least amount of content played..that is content played the least is group content. In fact, in most MMORPG's Raids are the least participated in yet most expensive content to create.

Also, we just can't point to people and say "This game isn't for you go away" Not only is it rude... I'm pretty sure that is against the TOS...though, there certainly are small cells of players who want that kind of power which if you think about it is scary ... or maybe not...I don't know which way you swing on that one.

Anyway

For me I play what some call fake Tanks and healers all the time never once have I died in a dungeon or Trial. The Trinity was a terrible idea for an Elder Scrolls game and no one but no one is forcing me into some outdated concept of roles, but no one is trying to do that to me or anyone else... in fact the only place I hear complaints about that are these forums and always by the same handful of people.

dungeons are 100% not a solo game. if you want to solo it, go ahead, no one is stopping you.

if, however, you want to do it with a team… you should at least attempt to play the role you said you would. or find friends who are willing to tolerate no heals or taunting.

Orbital78 · May 16

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q4w13Vg5WL0

Just gonna leave this here, since it was recently posted, relevant, and I agree. Have no expectations in a random group of strangers, there is a 15 min cooldown and vote kick for a reason. Until there are better ways to get easy transmutes people will always seek the path of least resistance.

If you're going to fake role, at least be good at the content. If I see a fake role and they expect me to carry them, I will usually just do something else unless I know them.

LaintalAy · May 16

SolarRune wrote: »

<snip>

As everyone seems to think fake roles in general are an issue, what do you feel can be done to solve this and improve the player experience of dungeons? what can be done to allow people to queue without faking? I'm not interested in the arguments around whether faking a particular role is worse than another, just how people think this practice could be resolved.

I queue (not cue) as a Sorc DD.
I use a combination of abilities that cover DoT; DD; Ranged; and AoE; in that order, with Magelight upping my magicka.
My passives and CP points tend to favour increasing Weapon and Spell damage.
I use Cowards (med) and Spider Cult (light); with a Heavy Monster piece to lever Heavy passives.
My only front bar self-heal is Soul Trap, it's backed up with standard tri-pot recoveries.

This works well for me in standard dungeons.

When it fails, I start looking for the reason. The reason is usually related to the Healer not performing for one reason or another. My setup is the best that I can do currently, with 560CP and around 200 Skill points, mostly booked into crafting functions. I queue as a DD and my setup reflects this. I expect that my setup with be supported by the Healer.
This gets harder if the boss is not being controlled to some point by the Tank.

If I am spending my time keeping myself alive, then I'm not doing the role of DD properly.
If I am focused on moving around an uncontrolled boss, then I'm not doing the role of DD properly.

Now, If the Tank is 'runahead Tank' and now two bosses into the future; and the healer is expecting me to be permanently lodged between the boss and themselves, then two things will happen:

I will die.
I will leave the dungeon.

I go into the dungeon expecting to lay damage on enemies as my primary focus. I have every right to expect that players queueing for the Tank and Healer roles will focus on Tanking and Healing. I don't put any limitations on my performance, e.g. "I'm only going to attack the boss if the Tank already has it pinned down and the Healer is firmly located behind me to ensure that they can heal me". That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Yet Tanks and healers put limitations on how they will perform all the time. "I'm running ahead - try to keep up" - "If you aren't in front of me, I won't heal you"

What can be done?

Remove the transmute reward and place it somewhere else.

The daily dungeon gives 10 transmutes and 100K XP bonus. It seems that this is the main reason that CP2400Tank is running Fungal Grotto 1. Moving the transmute reward to some solo function to cater for 'solo' effort seems a better option to me. You (most players) can easily generate 100K XP in other activities, in 30 minutes. If players want to behave selfishly to get a reward, then move the reward away from a group activity. Why should their selfish behaviour affect me?

Forget all the suggestions about matching stats with players to create a 'gatekeeper'. Removing the Transmute reward will have a flow-on effect of removing the problem players from dungeons.

Who knows? Dungeons may return to their rightful place in the 'progression tree'. Allowing low level users the ability to focus on their chosen role and develop it; rather than trying to keep some random fool stocked up on transmutes. I suspect these fools are the same ones complaining that they can't store more than 1000 crystals also.

MidniteOwl1913 · May 16

" - "If you aren't in front of me, I won't heal you""

It's not won't it's can't (or at least not as well) many heals are aimed out from the healer in front. Those heals don't work if you are behind the healer. Even things like orbs move forward.

And I would never expect a DD to keep the boss off me. I'm not even sure how that would work...

Hapexamendios · May 16

I solved my tank problem by doing it myself. I'll start with a standard tanking set up and see how it goes. I'll switch to a more selfish/offensive set up or leave if the DPS is bad. Healer doesn't realer matter in a normal as I usually have more than enough survivability and sustain.

N00BxV1 · May 16

Soarora wrote: »

(snip) Edit: I don’t know if they’re getting the fake tank idea from running in normals? You’d think that it’d be assumed that it wouldn’t work so well in veteran but maybe not. If that’s the case, maybe a pop-up when they go to queue for vet should mention not fake queueing or something… I’d suggest buffing normal so bosses direct damage (or at least HAs) hit harder but I think that’d be unpopular.

Yes, new players are absolutely learning their bad habits (Fake Tank, Fake Healer, etc.) from "veteran" players in Normal Dungeons. And then new players bring their learned bad habits into Veteran Dungeons because they think it's acceptable. I've been seeing this happen and it has gotten worse over the years ever since the introduction of the Daily Random Dungeon's Transmute Crystal rewards. This problem was mostly created by (and is allowed by) ZOS, and it's never gonna change until ZOS makes some changes. I don't know what changes to make, but anything is better than nothing...

Soarora wrote: »

(snip) I think low level CP folks are best off running with other low level CP folks. Not sure if there really is a queue MMR, but I feel like there might be. (snip)

I highly doubt there is any kind of MMR for Group Dungeons, because I very rarely get matched with other players at my own CP level. I am over 2200CP, and even on a character made at launch that has completed probably thousands of dungeons, I regularly see ~160CP (recently seen a 10CP!) players in Veteran Base Game Dungeons and ~400CP players in Veteran DLC Dungeons. And running Veteran Dungeons with low CP players vs. high CP players is a world of difference. If you have to drag other players through Veteran Dungeons then you should get more rewards for your time and effort, because most of the time it just costs me more to run Veteran Dungeons than I earn from completing the dungeons...

Sakiri · May 16

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

" - "If you aren't in front of me, I won't heal you""

It's not won't it's can't (or at least not as well) many heals are aimed out from the healer in front. Those heals don't work if you are behind the healer. Even things like orbs move forward.

And I would never expect a DD to keep the boss off me. I'm not even sure how that would work...

Won't means I'm not chasing them down BECAUSE of how heals work.

Also, I can slot inner fury. Taunt. DD can use it. And if I need to to keep my healer safe, I will.

moderatelyfatman · May 16

There is an old saying that goes along the lines of "If you dumb down a test so that everyone can pass, people will dumb themselves down so that they will fail it."

The issue is also true with roles: Take a look at this arcanist dps compared to the warden healer against a boss last night.....
To clarify:

Dungeon was normal Oathsworn Pit
Everyone was level 50 although I don't recall the CP
No one died in the fight.

First of all, I would defend the arcanist's player's right to play the game however they want. They didn't fake tank or fake heal so I think they were genuine and just did not know how to dps.

However, I think the problem is that the overland content in ESO is too easy and doesn't teach players anything about mechanics and rotations. In Cyrodiil there is a Volundrung tutorial in Cheese Mongers that teaches you how to use each skill in the hammer and it's a real pity there isn't a training room that can give class specific advice on how to dps effectively.

Other MMOs (namely FF14) have a tutorial section that teaches you how to play different roles such as tank and healer. It would really good if ESO had something like that as well.

Since the ESO playerbase is becoming less group based and more solo players, I think it is necessary to make those lessons available in the game itself. Otherwise the general skill level in the playerbase is going to crater over time and these problems of fake roles will become worse.

alpha_synuclein · May 16

Soarora wrote: »

I once held the opinion that the rewards should be raised for vet dungeons, but I don't think moving the problem more into the vet queue is a good idea. Instead, maybe keep the normal and vet queue rewards as they are now but increase the amount of transmute you get from all pledges (and fix the darn DLC HM geodes). Maybe also add decent transmute rewards for completing a trial quest. It could work out to be:
- Random normal: 10
- Random vet: 10 or 15
- Normal nondlc pledge: 5
- Normal dlc pledge: 10
- Vet nondlc pledge: 10
- Vet dlc pledge: 15
- HM nondlc pledge: 15
- HM DLC pledge: 25
- Trial daily quest: 25
- Leaderboard reward: 50

People who like the content will do the content regardless of the transmute rewards. Encouraging DLC HM paves a way for people to become more interested in dungeon endgame, instead of dungeons just being a path to transmute.

This. We need more sources of transmutes, especially in harder content. Random normal dungeon rewards 10 transmutes. HM trial rewards 5 transmutes. HM dungeon that one choose to run for fun rewards none. That is just silly...

As it is now noone is enjoying random normals. And new players are learning exactly how not to play group content. This is not doing group PVE any favors.

Nerouyn · May 16

Blood_again wrote: »

I see the only way to solve it: make their queue time longer, so faking roles won't save their time as they planned. No time saved - no motivation to fake the role.

There's always more than one way to solve a problem.

I love playing healers in group content.

I hate ESO's group content so only do it during events or first times for skill points on alts.

Healing isn't healing. It's 80% DPS, spamming aoe heals (like a DPS'er DPS'es), and repeating mini-duration buffs.

And of course running out of red circles.

Yawn.

Hasenpfote · May 16

For dungeons (not trials):

A DPS character deliver an average of 40k+ damage
A Healer deliver around 30k damage and keep the group alive
A tank does tanky things

The issue for dungeons, many, if not most DPS character are running a dungeon with around 10k dps.

In general, i prefer to have a fake healer in the group, that deliver decent amount of damage instead of have a healer, that can heal huge amount of damage, but group dps is less than 20k dps.

About buffs, if you trade a group buff, that increases grp dps by 5k dps and the healer loses fore than 5k dps meanwhile, than its not a good trade. Also most buffs are redundant.

Rasande_Robin · May 16

Imagine scaling up dungeons for 5 or even 6 players.. with 6 players you would cut dungeon queues for DDs in half...

Naftal · May 16

I don't think fake roles need to be fixed but I think the only way to do it would be reducing damage dealt and healing done from tanks by 99%, reducing healing done from dds by 99% and reducing damage dealt from healer by 99%.

So all roles are needed and can't be done by other roles.

Sakiri · May 16

Rasande_Robin wrote: »

Imagine scaling up dungeons for 5 or even 6 players.. with 6 players you would cut dungeon queues for DDs in half...

No, you'd just have more people that believe that and go back to dps.

Warhawke_80 · May 16

RomanRex wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

DonHardstyle wrote: »

So i que as healer and get a group instant. Nope i do not slot a group heal either. And nope i also wil not stop queueing as healer.

this isn’t a solo game.

if you want to cue for a group event and purposefully don’t do what you said you would when you cued, it’s mega trolly. you can’t even slot one heal? like wtf?

create a group finder and label it “LF 3 other DPS for daily random”

On the contrary, this is very much a solo game.

90% of the content in ESO is solo the least amount of content played..that is content played the least is group content. In fact, in most MMORPG's Raids are the least participated in yet most expensive content to create.

Also, we just can't point to people and say "This game isn't for you go away" Not only is it rude... I'm pretty sure that is against the TOS...though, there certainly are small cells of players who want that kind of power which if you think about it is scary ... or maybe not...I don't know which way you swing on that one.

Anyway

For me I play what some call fake Tanks and healers all the time never once have I died in a dungeon or Trial. The Trinity was a terrible idea for an Elder Scrolls game and no one but no one is forcing me into some outdated concept of roles, but no one is trying to do that to me or anyone else... in fact the only place I hear complaints about that are these forums and always by the same handful of people.

dungeons are 100% not a solo game. if you want to solo it, go ahead, no one is stopping you.

if, however, you want to do it with a team… you should at least attempt to play the role you said you would. or find friends who are willing to tolerate no heals or taunting.

Dungeons are also what maybe 5% of the overall content? All Group Content maybe 10% (and it's not really group content if you can solo it is it?) Everything else 100& solo...so ESO is a solo game.

And no I refuse to bend to outdated concepts of roles especially if I can spank the dungeon in whatever way I choose, it's silly to just limit myself to a DPS role when I can successfully Tank and off-heal at the same time.

ClowdyAllDay · May 16

People who complain about fake tanks and healers should start playing tanks and healers then they will no longer suffer from this dilemma.

Sakiri · May 16

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

DonHardstyle wrote: »

So i que as healer and get a group instant. Nope i do not slot a group heal either. And nope i also wil not stop queueing as healer.

this isn’t a solo game.

if you want to cue for a group event and purposefully don’t do what you said you would when you cued, it’s mega trolly. you can’t even slot one heal? like wtf?

create a group finder and label it “LF 3 other DPS for daily random”

On the contrary, this is very much a solo game.

90% of the content in ESO is solo the least amount of content played..that is content played the least is group content. In fact, in most MMORPG's Raids are the least participated in yet most expensive content to create.

Also, we just can't point to people and say "This game isn't for you go away" Not only is it rude... I'm pretty sure that is against the TOS...though, there certainly are small cells of players who want that kind of power which if you think about it is scary ... or maybe not...I don't know which way you swing on that one.

Anyway

For me I play what some call fake Tanks and healers all the time never once have I died in a dungeon or Trial. The Trinity was a terrible idea for an Elder Scrolls game and no one but no one is forcing me into some outdated concept of roles, but no one is trying to do that to me or anyone else... in fact the only place I hear complaints about that are these forums and always by the same handful of people.

dungeons are 100% not a solo game. if you want to solo it, go ahead, no one is stopping you.

if, however, you want to do it with a team… you should at least attempt to play the role you said you would. or find friends who are willing to tolerate no heals or taunting.

Dungeons are also what maybe 5% of the overall content? All Group Content maybe 10% (and it's not really group content if you can solo it is it?) Everything else 100& solo...so ESO is a solo game.

And no I refuse to bend to outdated concepts of roles especially if I can spank the dungeon in whatever way I choose, it's silly to just limit myself to a DPS role when I can successfully Tank and off-heal at the same time.

The go in solo and quit trolling your groups.

Sakiri · May 16

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

People who complain about fake tanks and healers should start playing tanks and healers then they will no longer suffer from this dilemma.

I do already.