Werewolf PTS Changes.

autocookies

Those who have reviewed the changes to werewolf this pts cycle how do you feel about these changes? (Changes are the images below)

autocookies

Accidentally hit enter before I was finished editing the polls.. please consider "Extremely satisfied" as "Outstanding"

Tommy_The_Gun

All of those changes are overall huge nerf for a class/spec that is already worst performing one on live server in all aspects of the game (PvE and PvP, both group & solo).

Erickson9610

Could anyone please direct me to a Werewolf player who is "extremely satisfied" with these changes? The only people I know who are happy about these changes are PvP players who don't play Werewolf themselves — and even then, many of those people are upset by these changes because they think Werewolf is being buffed.

LunaFlora

the Bleed damage and taunt changes seem good to me.

Araneae6537

Why are these bad changes? I would think bleed damage a good thing and likewise having an ability that taunts. But I only occasionally play werewolf so I am probably missing something.

Necrotech_Master

im kind of a mix with the changes

• changing the light/heavy dmg to bleed typed - good
• chance to apply hemorrhaging - good
• the whole terrified debuff situtation - not great, a little convoluted
• taunt option - good
• roar changes - not great (does not necessarily line up with a tank gameplay, the dps has the cc and the tank loses crit in place of major protection)
• howl changes - not great (basically a 50% nerf)

Theist_VII

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why are these bad changes? I would think bleed damage a good thing and likewise having an ability that taunts. But I only occasionally play werewolf so I am probably missing something.

Instead of needing an opponent to face you for the damage increase to Howl, you now have to build stacks on an opponent while they have a Terrified marker that is easily purgeable for less damage than you had previously.

You have more conditions for less damage.

Other than that, although the changes to allow for Werewolf taunting are great, they are also gonna get you killed in serious content because you’re gonna have to wind up a heavy attack and hope you don’t get heavied yourself while you’ve dropped block.

IncultaWolf

It's a significant nerf for damage dealers. Now you have to use roar in your rotation, you lose sustain and @Erickson9610 did a perfect parse compared to live, and he lost 7k DPS on the pts. The fact that you have to fear/cc to get your damage buff is going to annoy a lot of tanks.

Terrified is extremely underwhelming and it can be cleansed lol

Tommy_The_Gun

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why are these bad changes? I would think bleed damage a good thing and likewise having an ability that taunts. But I only occasionally play werewolf so I am probably missing something.

The issue with taunt on Heavy attack is that... um... you will be able to call yourself "a tank" because you have the ability to taunt, so that is true, but WW will most likely be the worst possible tank imaginable.

How many mobs & boss you have to taunt on average per fight ? And how long a fully charged heavy attack takes to do ? You see where this is going ? WW tank won't be able to taunt things fast enough to keep up and their gameplay will basically look like this:

Hold Left mouse button, and run from a boss to a mob and then to a next mob while also trying to position boss in the DPS dmg AOE. And better keep holding that mouse button to HA everything in time.... You wont have time to block or cast skill. Your job is to taunt things and WW has the worst taunt in the game... And of course - when you are doing HA (it is a Channelled skill ?) something may hit you, put off-balance, stun you, or (since you are not blocking) something may insta-kill you... I mean you are left open indefinitely since you will be basically forced to perma heavy attack things...

Was Tormentor AOE taunt bad ? Why ZOS removed it ? And now WW are getting this ? And what about blocking ? No time to block, you have to keep taunting things, remember ? So you will actually have to build to tank without block. So Gaze of Sithis will be meta for WW tank. Not that WW tank will be meta or even decent at all.

The only way I can see WW tank being playable is if Werewolf Berserker morph (yes, DPS morph) will have AOE taunt, as it says that Heavy Attacks deal 50% splash damage, so it may actually have AOE taunt, but let me say this: If I have to pick DPS morph for a tank then something is wrong lol.

And it was all done at the expense of everything else. So, again, WW will be the worst at everything. The only spec/role WW won't be worst at is healer cuz it is unavailable for WW... and perhaps (seeing how WW tank "official implementation" looks like)... maybe that is for the better to not have WW healer.

chessalavakia_ESO

I'd lean towards slightly in the unsatisfactory column.

I like the change to Bleed damage as it makes the WW favor Sorc less over other classes and the buff to Howl of Despair's duration as it makes it far easier to keep the buffs up. However, I'm not really a big fan of the Deafening Roar change as I feel it leave builds in a position where they might feel forced to go Oaken Soul to get Major Savagery/Prophecy.

Theist_VII

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why are these bad changes? I would think bleed damage a good thing and likewise having an ability that taunts. But I only occasionally play werewolf so I am probably missing something.

The issue with taunt on Heavy attack is that... um... you will be able to call yourself "a tank" because you have the ability to taunt, so that is true, but WW will most likely be the worst possible tank imaginable.

Yup, right behind Templar for tanking. 😂

They failed to create a niché for Werewolf tanking by giving it nothing unique to set it apart.

Necrotech_Master

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why are these bad changes? I would think bleed damage a good thing and likewise having an ability that taunts. But I only occasionally play werewolf so I am probably missing something.

The issue with taunt on Heavy attack is that... um... you will be able to call yourself "a tank" because you have the ability to taunt, so that is true, but WW will most likely be the worst possible tank imaginable.

How many mobs & boss you have to taunt on average per fight ? And how long a fully charged heavy attack takes to do ? You see where this is going ? WW tank won't be able to taunt things fast enough to keep up and their gameplay will basically look like this:

Hold Left mouse button, and run from a boss to a mob and then to a next mob while also trying to position boss in the DPS dmg AOE. And better keep holding that mouse button to HA everything in time.... You wont have time to block or cast skill. Your job is to taunt things and WW has the worst taunt in the game... And of course - when you are doing HA (it is a Channelled skill ?) something may hit you, put off-balance, stun you, or (since you are not blocking) something may insta-kill you... I mean you are left open indefinitely since you will be basically forced to perma heavy attack things...

Was Tormentor AOE taunt bad ? Why ZOS removed it ? And now WW are getting this ? And what about blocking ? No time to block, you have to keep taunting things, remember ? So you will actually have to build to tank without block. So Gaze of Sithis will be meta for WW tank. Not that WW tank will be meta or even decent at all.

The only way I can see WW tank being playable is if Werewolf Berserker morph (yes, DPS morph) will have AOE taunt, as it says that Heavy Attacks deal 50% splash damage, so it may actually have AOE taunt, but let me say this: If I have to pick DPS morph for a tank then something is wrong lol.

And it was all done at the expense of everything else. So, again, WW will be the worst at everything. The only spec/role WW won't be worst at is healer cuz it is unavailable for WW... and perhaps (seeing how WW tank "official implementation" looks like)... maybe that is for the better to not have WW healer.

technically they did not remove the taunt on tormentor, it just only applies to 1 target at a time

will the new option be better? well it does free up a full 5 piece set you could use on something else, you could run actual tank sets at this point (turning tide + pearlescent ward for example), but it will still be slower than a standard tank using puncture or ice staff taunt

Erickson9610

LunaFlora wrote: »

the Bleed damage and taunt changes seem good to me.

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why are these bad changes? I would think bleed damage a good thing and likewise having an ability that taunts. But I only occasionally play werewolf so I am probably missing something.

It seems the bleed damage and taunt are the two features that stick out for most people as a buff. But consider:

• With the change from Physical to Bleed, Sorcerer Werewolf (the most popular Class to play Werewolf on, due to the useful Class passives which carry over into Werewolf form) loses out on the bonus damage from the Energized passive, which increases Physical (not Bleed) damage by 5%.
• The taunt on Werewolf would be a good thing, if it wasn't for the fact that Werewolf doesn't receive any weapon passives, so One Hand and Shield passives like Fortress (reduced blocking cost) and Sword and Board (increased damage blocked) can not apply in Werewolf form. The only thing that made Werewolf tanking somewhat viable was the AoE taunt from Tormentor; now that AoE taunting is impossible, Werewolf's only options for taunting are to Pounce with Tormentor (very expensive) or heavy attack with Deafening Roar slotted (which means that they can't be blocking, leaving them open to one shot mechanics). Werewolf Tanking is fundamentally flawed.

And that's not the worst part of it. The changes to Piercing Howl and Roar, namely regarding the introduction of the Terrified mechanic, are direct nerfs. For these, consider:

• Howl of Agony now only deals 10% bonus damage if the enemy is Terrified, which requires someone in the group to use Ferocious Roar, and an additional 10% bonus damage if the enemy is Off Balance. Before, Howl of Agony had 25% bonus damage just for the target facing you or being feared. This is a direct nerf, from 25% maximum to 20% maximum, and this applies to Werewolf's primary spammable.
  • Off Balance has a 7 second uptime with a 15 second cooldown. This means that over a duration of 22 seconds before Off Balance can be applied again, only 7 seconds will grant 10% bonus damage, for a maximum uptime of 31.82% of the time. You'd also need to cast Ferocious Roar once every 10 seconds for 100% uptime of the Terrified effect, assuming the enemy doesn't purge it (as it's a negative effect). In total, the maximum uptime of the bonus damage dropped from 100% to 31.82%, because it's impossible to put an enemy Off Balance while they're on cooldown.
• In PvE, the changes to Piercing Howl and Roar have nerfed overall DPS significantly. It's actually worth not casting Ferocious Roar at all, because the bonus damage from Terrified doesn't outweigh the DPS loss (and sustain loss!) of wasting a GCD every 10 seconds on the AoE fear ability. Because of this, if a Werewolf Damage Dealer doesn't ever use Ferocious Roar and has Major Savagery and Prophecy from another source, they could get away with slotting Deafening Roar, which now has Major Protection for slotting, and potentially set themselves up to accidentally taunt enemies via heavy attack.
  • Not to mention that Damage Dealers in general have no business putting enemies on Crowd Control Immunity just for a DPS boost; especially one that they're likely the only ones to benefit from. No one else can apply or benefit from Terrified, so Werewolf Damage Dealers are going to be scorned for fearing enemies, which prevents the tank from chaining them or applying their own Crowd Control.
• The Terrified effect was described as a tracking effect, yet it does not track enemies. There isn't even VFX on the enemy to know which enemies are Terrified or not. The only purpose of Terrified is to get Werewolves to use all of their skills, and to force them to work together by not letting Werewolf Tanks apply Terrified. This design is fundamentally flawed, as Werewolf Damage Dealers shouldn't need to use their Crowd Control ability in a parse, and Werewolf players are already incentivized to work together via the Call of the Pack passive.
• Finally, Deafening Roar loses the Major Savagery and Prophecy, which Werewolf Tanks need for their expensive self heal. Deafening Roar also loses access to applying Terrified, so now it's even more difficult trying to kill enemies. Note that Deafening Roar applies Major Breach and Minor Maim, so it's the preferred morph in PvP, and some Damage Dealers used it in PvE before these changes.

These are a lot of changes that may seem on the surface like a beneficial thing, but thorough playtesting and knowledge of the spec reveals how unhelpful these changes really are. Many content creators exclaim that Werewolf is being buffed, completely glancing over direct nerfs like the maximum Howl of Agony bonus damage dropping from 25% to 20%, and don't realize the many ways that Werewolf is being made more complicated for no benefit at all.

I encourage anyone reading this, who has not tested these changes on the PTS or who does not regularly play a Werewolf in Werewolf form in PvE and/or in PvP, to compare the changes between Live and on the PTS. The last thing Werewolf needs is the misconception that it's still as powerful as it was years ago — Werewolf has been on a steady decline since then.

Araneae6537

That makes sense! Heavy attack taunt is a risk — I never liked it on ice staff when that was the staff taunt and I’m glad that was changed to a skill morph instead. I see what you mean about Terrified being especially bad for PvP.

Totally agree that destroying the Tormentor set was uncalled for. It was far from meta since it trades a 5-piece bonus for an aoe taunt but it was fun to use on WW and templar.

I think the change from physical to bleed damage is still potentially good, although for a DK WW, it might not make much difference, but I think there are a number of sets which boost bleed damage and might have potential.

LunaFlora

i understand it mostly, but i do like Bleed damage more than Physical as my build stamina warden build uses bleed damage.
And my other werewolf is a templar with deadly strike as well.

huskandhunger

Werewolf tank is usually the Packleader morph due to the innate 10% damage mitigation, while it's okay to make Deafening Roar defensive as opposed to an offensive morph such as Ferocious which ZOS seems to desire, the Taunt function would be better placed on the Packleader ability than Roar to free up flexibility for morph choice because this affects damage dealers who may wish to use breach but not wish to steal aggro from a given tank player in a dungeon or trial.

erdYrrson

I play the packleader for various reasons, but surely not for tanking. I have a real tank for that. Adding a taunt to the packleader morph would ruin it for me. If anything, the taunting option should have been added via that scribing/grimoire stuff. The price for the added taunt within the base werewolf skills is high, too high.

Necrotech_Master

erdYrrson wrote: »

I play the packleader for various reasons, but surely not for tanking. I have a real tank for that. Adding a taunt to the packleader morph would ruin it for me. If anything, the taunting option should have been added via that scribing/grimoire stuff. The price for the added taunt within the base werewolf skills is high, too high.

the taunt was not added to the overarching morphs of the WW (berserker/pack leader), it was added to 1 morph of the fear skill (having the one morph slotted makes heavy attacks taunt)

the fear skill i think was a good choice for adding the taunt, but i dont think they implemented it in an ideal way

erdYrrson

I replied to the suggestion above my post....

huskandhunger

bork bork bork