What if we could spend gold on mailing our surveys to our hirelings?

furiouslog

TaSheen wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@furiouslog - it would definitely not make harvesting more entertaining for me. But as long as it's OPTIONAL, it's fine. Your ideas would make me hate the whole thing....

So if you win, you see, I lose.

So, if I understand you correctly, you find the current survey system without any flaws as it stands? I speak specifically about surveys, not the entire harvesting mechanic at large.

Yes I do. I LOVE getting out to do surveys - it's kind of a vacation for me. I LOVE wandering around from zone to zone replenishing my supplies. I RP in my mind the whole time, on whichever character I'm playing. As for the "entire harvesting mechanic at large" I also love that - every character I'm playing is picking every node she runs across.

Just like I love reading all the books on all my alts, and researching all the traits on all my alts, and doing writs on lots of my alts (not all of them - writs are okay on a dozen girls a day or so over 4 accounts, but beyond that it's pretty stultifying).

I wouldn't be "entertained" by your ideas - but again, as long as it's optional (so I don't have to do stuff I wouldn't find fun or entertaining), that's fine.

A few follow up questions, if you'll indulge me:

If the primary objective is the journey, then are the mats you get not really a large consideration in your enjoyment of the game?

Would you still harvest casually across zones without the surveys?

Do the surveys play a part in your enjoyment of the game other than providing an incentive to wander across zones?

Wouldn't new, crafting-specific harvesting zones also provide additional opportunities to explore and view the world?

virtus753

DenverRalphy wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Survey maps were created to give crafters a guaranteed method to collect/harvest mats without having to compete with other players (and bots) over harvest nodes. And at a 6X bonus to boot! What survey maps were not created for, was for crafters to simply sit back and do nothing while the mats roll in.

For example..

• You can set out to harvest Ore. With no bonuses, you can trek around and farm 36 nodes to collect 108 ore, often while trying to beat other players and bots to those nodes.

OR

• You can whip out your handy survey map, skip up to the mapped out location with 6 convenient nodes that only you can harvest, and get the same amount of mats. Guaranteed!

A player can choose to trudge it out node farming the normal way, or they can take advantage of the survey maps. They provide a distinct and clear benefit. And if you compound that benefit with the available buffs to harvesting, they're even more beneficial. Either way, it's up to the player.

But what a player can't do (well, they can, but it'll show their nature), is moan about how horrible and inconvenient survey maps are.

36 pulls of non-survey ore nodes will give an average of 113.76 base mats (3x 84% of the time and 4x 16% of the time), plus an average of 9 Regulus (15% chance of getting 1x, 5% chance of getting 2x) and an average of 9 dust (which will be either character level-based or crafting rank-based, whichever the ore is).

One blacksmithing survey will yield on average 114 base mats (50% chance of 18x and 50% chance of 20x ore). It will never drop Regulus or dust.

The convenience of the survey is offset by the additional mats provided by the non-survey nodes and the competition there. Whether it is only partially offset or more than makes up for it will be up to the player.

ETA: Also, Luminous Ink does not currently drop from surveys on the PTS, and ZOS made some adjustments to drop rates from enemies but seems to have stuck by Ink not dropping from surveys. That will be a nice advantage to harvesting non-survey nodes starting next update.

I chose to use the base mats lowest possible outcome to keep the math simple. Being precise isn't required to make the point.

And no, the convenience isn't offset by not dropping furnishing mats. Furnishing mats are an entirely different entity that happen to be tied to regular nodes instead of creating a whole new batch/type of nodes when furnishing was introduced. Surveys aren't supposed to drop them, and don't need to. The entire point of surveys are to give crafters the ability to harvest regular resources without having to fight other players for them. That's it. That simple.

Yes, in fact I said the very same thing about surveys not needing to drop furnishing mats in a PTS thread earlier. They already drop readily from non-survey nodes as is. Which was my point in pointing out that 36 non-survey ore (cloth, jewelry, wood) nodes give the same base mats as 1 survey (or close enough) but also give extra mats on top of that, which can add value not only materially but also in the form of entertainment. The fact they were never supposed to drop from surveys doesn't mean they don't matter in the valuation of surveys vs. non-survey nodes. We can't ignore them because of that. To reiterate what I said before, it's undeniable that these additional materials offset the convenience of surveys, but how much they do so - whether they do so only partially (i.e. not enough to make it worth it) or more than enough - is up to each player to decide. If they don't for you, that's fair. But they often do for me.

With your example of ore nodes, the Regulus is going to be a small bonus on top of the raw ore, maybe 1k in total value (PC-NA). The dust will be worth much more, up to 4k. That adds about a third of the value of the base mats (5k total added to about 15k from the ore). If that's not enough value for some players, I certainly understand. But if we look at 36 wood nodes, the math changes, and opinions may change with it. 9 Heartwood is about 20k in my MM. That's 20k gold I'm not getting from 1 wood survey. The rough ruby ash I'd get is not worth even 6k. The non-survey nodes are on average more than quadruple the gold value of the survey nodes for me, going by my MM. That's worth it to me, personally. I'd rather spend my time gathering those nodes in the wild than doing my surveys. In fact, I do that - which is why I have a backlog of woodworking surveys but have harvested hundreds of wood nodes in the wild in the past week. And I get more out of it not just in terms of the materials but also in terms of the experience, because for me farming is also incomparably more interesting than collecting surveys. (And I spend most of my time doing PvE endgame, so I'm not primarily a farmer at all.) In a game that I play for entertainment, that part of the equation matters to me a lot. It may not to you, and that's fine too. It's entirely understandable to prioritize convenience; personally, I value the additional variety of materials and their gold value as well as the variety of experience more highly. We're different players and value different things.

TaSheen

Because I have a bunch of girls at CP 160 (the ones I generally do daily writs on, as well as craft for my alts on), I need the mats from surveys, because it gripes me to run out of something and have to buy it (I detest the entire guild trader thing, and when I'm forced to buy something, it ruins my day basically).

Yes, I would still harvest on whoever I'm running - it's part of my entire gameplay setup by now (been here 7 years....)

Yes, the surveys provide a nice burst of glee when I get all those mats and watch my craft bag swell with supplies.

They would - except if they required nit-noiding around with keys or what-not. Actually, if they changed over to that system, I'm pretty sure I'd never interact with it. Doesn't sound fun or entertaining to me, sorry.

furiouslog

TaSheen wrote: »

They would - except if they required nit-noiding around with keys or what-not. Actually, if they changed over to that system, I'm pretty sure I'd never interact with it. Doesn't sound fun or entertaining to me, sorry.

This is where I think you are closing off and shutting down the idea, because what is in your head from what I described is not what I intended to describe. The currency or whatever that would replace surveys, which I called "keys" but really could be anything, would be far less difficult to deal with than the surveys. When you get a survey now, you get excited at the potential enjoyment it would represent. You apparently love this system. My proposed system is no different, apart from being far simpler to manage from an inventory standpoint. So, it actually should sound fun and entertaining to you, if you are correctly representing the things that drive your enjoyment.

Furthermore, you would have new and interesting areas to explore when harvesting, and noting about the overland and your enjoyment of exploring that area would change. It would add more content to explore. That seems like a strong benefit based on your interests.

Now, if the real reason is because "i don't like change and so anything different is bad", fair enough. But be honest about it.

TaSheen

furiouslog wrote: »

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

This is what would turn me off. I don't group, I don't do group content, that stuff's not fun for me; I don't have many friends who play this game, they're not interested in grouping either, and I'm just not going there. I'm a totally solo player. I like the MMO thing because it's not static like a single player title, but I really have no use for grouping. Love the mass of people around, have ZERO interest in interacting with them.

Now - to your little dig at the end: I actually love the game the way it is, because it (in general) fits me perfectly. I only do what I find fun, and there's a lot of that I can do by myself. So in that way, yes, I'm not really interested in this particular change.

However - if this was OPTIONAL, I'd be very happy for you to get what you want without messing up what I enjoy.

furiouslog

TaSheen wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

This is what would turn me off. I don't group, I don't do group content, that stuff's not fun for me; I don't have many friends who play this game, they're not interested in grouping either, and I'm just not going there. I'm a totally solo player. I like the MMO thing because it's not static like a single player title, but I really have no use for grouping. Love the mass of people around, have ZERO interest in interacting with them.

Now - to your little dig at the end: I actually love the game the way it is, because it (in general) fits me perfectly. I only do what I find fun, and there's a lot of that I can do by myself. So in that way, yes, I'm not really interested in this particular change.

However - if this was OPTIONAL, I'd be very happy for you to get what you want without messing up what I enjoy.

The entire game is optional. But I won't continue to try to convince you, as it will be pointless as you have indicated. You have provided a perspective that would be useful if I were going to keep tossing the idea around, which I won't as it's pointless, but either way thanks for that.

AzuraFan

furiouslog wrote: »

Perhaps I inferred from your statement that you were being dismissive, but saying "grit your teeth and bear it" is basically the same as "if you don't like it, go find another game" because leaving the game is the only alternative to me gritting my teeth. It's an ultimatum-style power move. Don't pretend otherwise.

No, I meant what I said by "grit your teeth and bear it." Just like I have to grit my teeth and bear it when I do dungeons, which I don't like.

TaSheen

furiouslog wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

This is what would turn me off. I don't group, I don't do group content, that stuff's not fun for me; I don't have many friends who play this game, they're not interested in grouping either, and I'm just not going there. I'm a totally solo player. I like the MMO thing because it's not static like a single player title, but I really have no use for grouping. Love the mass of people around, have ZERO interest in interacting with them.

Now - to your little dig at the end: I actually love the game the way it is, because it (in general) fits me perfectly. I only do what I find fun, and there's a lot of that I can do by myself. So in that way, yes, I'm not really interested in this particular change.

However - if this was OPTIONAL, I'd be very happy for you to get what you want without messing up what I enjoy.

The entire game is optional. But I won't continue to try to convince you, as it will be pointless as you have indicated. You have provided a perspective that would be useful if I were going to keep tossing the idea around, which I won't as it's pointless, but either way thanks for that.

Well, I don't know that it's "pointless". It could be optional. That should satisfy most people. Now, I am aware that the last few things that people tried to get ZOS to make "optional".... eh - they didn't, and the result satisfied almost no one....

furiouslog

AzuraFan wrote: »

No, I meant what I said by "grit your teeth and bear it." Just like I have to grit my teeth and bear it when I do dungeons, which I don't like.

The alternative being? Either try to change it, or go away. I'd prefer to change it, you are evidently against change. I can understand that, and it's why you frame the situation as an "either or".

I find hatred of dungeons in a fantasy game designed around fighting creatures in delves and dungeons to be somewhat more deserving of the ultimatum drop, but I won't do it, of course. I'd try to find a way for you to get what you wanted without having to run dungeons. In a game that is basically all about exploring dungeons. Yes, I don't get it, but I'd definitely try.

AzuraFan

furiouslog wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

No, I meant what I said by "grit your teeth and bear it." Just like I have to grit my teeth and bear it when I do dungeons, which I don't like.

The alternative being? Either try to change it, or go away.

The alternative being what I suggested in my previous post. Gather ingredients through exploration. Buy them at guild traders. Find something else to do other than craft, i.e. focus on activities you enjoy.

Not sure why you're determined to interpret what I'm saying as a "do surveys or leave the game" ultimatum, or that I'm framing stuff as either/or, and I won't speculate.

I find hatred of dungeons in a fantasy game designed around fighting creatures in delves and dungeons...

It's news to me that ESO is designed around fighting creatures in dungeons, given the massive amount of overland and story content. And housing. And PvP. And.... That's the point. If you don't like doing one activity, do others. That's one of the things I love about ESO and what keeps me here. No need for a "do dungeons or leave" ultimatum lol.

Anyway, this is no longer a constructive discussion, given that you interpret every post I make as a "do surveys or leave" post. If you want people to discuss your ideas (as you claim), interpreting whatever people say in the worst way possible won't get you what you want.

Off to more constructive and fun activities (like doing surveys in ESO. Sorry, couldn't resist!).

(and I'm not against change. I don't agree with your ideas about changing surveys. Big difference. But like Ta'Sheen has said, if your ideas were optional, then no problem.)

katanagirl1

@TaSheen has hit the nail on the head. We have a game 10 years into it, and we have a system that people have adapted to. You can make suggestions, but in the time the game has been around players have optimized their gameplay to the current standard and change is going to be difficult. If there is not a clear benefit that each player can relate to, then it’s hard to convince them.

Just like PvP. I love PvP and I think everyone should enjoy it too like I do. However, there are lots of players who cringe at the thought that someone might annihilate their pixel toon with another pixel toon and ruin their day. Even though the possibility of that might be slim, the very existence of it drives people away. Should I force people to PvP in the name of change? Make sense?

I currently do all my surveys but am struggling to keep up. I think some change should be made but it should be a minimal change. The number of surveys keep growing, based on a pre One Tamriel system where we are post One Tamriel.

TaSheen

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I currently do all my surveys but am struggling to keep up. I think some change should be made but it should be a minimal change. The number of surveys keep growing, based on a pre One Tamriel system where we are post One Tamriel.

This right here is why I've cut back to just the mains for most writs and crafting, unlike the first couple of years I played. Yes, I love doing surveys and harvesting, BUT - if I were looking at a backlog of several hundred surveys because I do writs on 70+ characters daily....

Um. Nope.

katanagirl1

TaSheen wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I currently do all my surveys but am struggling to keep up. I think some change should be made but it should be a minimal change. The number of surveys keep growing, based on a pre One Tamriel system where we are post One Tamriel.

This right here is why I've cut back to just the mains for most writs and crafting, unlike the first couple of years I played. Yes, I love doing surveys and harvesting, BUT - if I were looking at a backlog of several hundred surveys because I do writs on 70+ characters daily....

Um. Nope.

The problem for me is that I keep them in one toon’s inventory so it forces me to do them. What I mean about the number of surveys increasing is the number of unique ones. Each chapter more get added, so that increases the number of inventory slots needs to keep them. I don’t get many duplicates before the usable space gets filled up, and as long as chapters keep getting released it just gets worse.

TaSheen

Oh, that's true too, but at least only doing writs on a dozen characters does keep some sort of lid on it. There are a few surveys I just won't bother with doing, too - too many mobs to dodge on the way, or too far from "civilization" (as in a wayshrine) etc. I think those total only about 4 or 5 though.

Desiato

No one is forced to harvest. If we want to upgrade items, we need only a gold income and there are countless ways to earn gold.

When I was a hardcore trader a few years ago, the dudes really stacking the gold were the hardcore harvesters, but I didn't enjoy that so I made my gold flipping instead. But there are countless other ways to earn gold by doing things one enjoys and selling the rewards.

I think the current survey system is totally fine. The only thing that makes it seem broken is that addons trivialized the writ process so much to make it easy to grind them daily and stack surveys.

Surveys were actually designed to be even more of a challenge, similar to treasure maps. Like automation addons have trivialized writs, map addons have trivialized collecting surveys. I bet a lot of players have never even double-clicked a survey.

Keep in mind that crafting writs were originally implemented for players who enjoy crafting and as a method of progressing in crafts. Writ automation addons opened writs to a much larger audience. I doubt so many players would do them daily if they had to craft everything manually -- at least not on multiple characters.

Part of what harvesters enjoy is the profit they can earn while performing a task they can enjoy. I don't think that should be disrupted for the benefit of players who don't enjoy that.

Amottica

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

2. An alternative way to pump gold out of the system if we could come to terms how many surveys one may send off at once and for what price. Or how the gold price increases in relation to the amount of surveys being send to the selected hireling.

To be an effective gold sink, it would make the surveys cost more than they are worth. Regardless of the amount, many people who let their surveys accumulate will not want to pay it.