What if we could spend gold on mailing our surveys to our hirelings?

AzuraFan

furiouslog wrote: »

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

Gawd, no. Turning surveys into a forced grouping event is the worst idea so far...

furiouslog

katanagirl1 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

The problem with the surveys is that they are boring, and an isolated and time-consuming activity. Also some of the survey locations are so painful to reach that I just destroy them (but there are only a couple of those - I'm looking at you in particular, Shadowfen).

I really hate Lost Ark, but they did a handful of things well, and one of them was this: instead of giving players access to special nodes, they got keys to enter a resource rich instance where 1-4 players could team up and harvest all at once. If the teams were able to coordinate well, they'd unlock other areas which gave them more resources, etc etc. It had a 15 minute timer, so once it was up, you were done.

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

Again, I hate Lost Ark, but that bit of design was pretty smart.

Sorry but this doesn’t seem like fun to me. I wouldn’t want to have to group up for farming mats. I prefer to do it alone and whenever is convenient for me,

You still could, you just get extra if you group, and also it's an idea to apply and think about, not implement as is. Try not to strangle the baby in its crib.

TaSheen wrote: »

I *think* the disconnect for me here is that I find running surveys fun, and apparently most others don't....

Yes, that is correct, and the reason is that it is not fun, it is a boring and horrible chore that i and everyone I play with hates.

furiouslog

AzuraFan wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

Gawd, no. Turning surveys into a forced grouping event is the worst idea so far...

Perhaps re-read what I wrote? It's not forced grouping. Yikes, you guys are all super irritable today.

Araneae6537

TaSheen wrote: »

I *think* the disconnect for me here is that I find running surveys fun, and apparently most others don't....

I would still do them myself as well. I don’t find them fun, exactly, but can be a relaxing distraction during another activity or when too tired for anything more involved, etc. And I often pair it with other things like scrying and importantly, harvesting other mats in the area to collect furnishing materials.

kargen27

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I oppose this idea because we need more players out and about doing activities in zones not less. The zones need to feel populated.

never noticed a difference, either because people are already indifferent about surveys, or because the surveys only occur at very very specific locations in the zones

zones are big enough 10 people doing surveys wont see anything but each other most likely unless they are near a quest hub

This supports my position that we don't need anything else put in the game that takes away from players being in zones doing stuff.

theres quite a lot of quests out there which take place in instances, not in the open, if anything that takes more people out of zone than a few people going to very specific spots for 2 minutes to harvest the survey nodes

85% of the time im doing a treasure map or survey, the only time i see any players is when i port to the wayshrine nearest to the dig/harvest site, and then only occasionally see other players at the dig/harvest site

there is also the percentage of players who dislike doing these things, and "trying to get them out in the zone" is not a valid reason for them to bother or care and still continue to not do the maps and surveys

at least they have an option to give maps to players who do enjoy that, while they dont for surveys, which is why people let them pile up, they cant sell them and dont want to do them themselves

Again that points to needing more reasons for players to be in these zones and not less. The suggestion in this thread was the creation of a hireling to do the surveys. Not being able to sell surveys would be a different talking point. I think hirelings doing surveys would hurt the game in part because it would cause zones to be less populated than they are now. The responses I've received support that the zones feel empty and could use more not less players.

CrashTest

I think using a survey vendor instead of the mail system would be better bc the mail system isn't involved, and you're done after you buy the vendor's service. It's a great gold sink.

Necrotech_Master

kargen27 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I oppose this idea because we need more players out and about doing activities in zones not less. The zones need to feel populated.

never noticed a difference, either because people are already indifferent about surveys, or because the surveys only occur at very very specific locations in the zones

zones are big enough 10 people doing surveys wont see anything but each other most likely unless they are near a quest hub

This supports my position that we don't need anything else put in the game that takes away from players being in zones doing stuff.

theres quite a lot of quests out there which take place in instances, not in the open, if anything that takes more people out of zone than a few people going to very specific spots for 2 minutes to harvest the survey nodes

85% of the time im doing a treasure map or survey, the only time i see any players is when i port to the wayshrine nearest to the dig/harvest site, and then only occasionally see other players at the dig/harvest site

there is also the percentage of players who dislike doing these things, and "trying to get them out in the zone" is not a valid reason for them to bother or care and still continue to not do the maps and surveys

at least they have an option to give maps to players who do enjoy that, while they dont for surveys, which is why people let them pile up, they cant sell them and dont want to do them themselves

Again that points to needing more reasons for players to be in these zones and not less. The suggestion in this thread was the creation of a hireling to do the surveys. Not being able to sell surveys would be a different talking point. I think hirelings doing surveys would hurt the game in part because it would cause zones to be less populated than they are now. The responses I've received support that the zones feel empty and could use more not less players.

again the point im bringing up is that surveys alone will not solve that problem lol, in fact i dont think it would even remotely matter because most of the time if someone is doing a survey, they port to the 1 wayshrine nearest the survey, and ride straight to the survey and then either 1) port back to the wayshrine to repeat, or 2) port out of the zone entirely as they had no more reason to stay there

what is the definition of a zone feeling empty? a zone could feel empty but you go to a town and it has 30 people at the wayshrine, sure its going to feel empty if your in a more remote spot in the zone with no quests, vendors, or even other NPCs present (theres a few spots like that in craglorn near the edges of the map, but i would never call craglorn an "empty zone")

i think the "zones feel empty" and "more convenient material surveys" arguments are comparing apples to oranges and need to be discussed separately

AzuraFan

furiouslog wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

Gawd, no. Turning surveys into a forced grouping event is the worst idea so far...

Perhaps re-read what I wrote? It's not forced grouping. Yikes, you guys are all super irritable today.

You said, "...a cooperative harvesting type game...receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends." That sounds like you have to harvest with friends, meaning you have to group to do the activity. If it's not forced grouping, you didn't explain it very well.

LalMirchi

TaSheen wrote: »

I *think* the disconnect for me here is that I find running surveys fun, and apparently most others don't....

I agree. While I find questing to be the most enjoyable activity I like doing surveys. I sometimes have days where my "spare time" after doing chores (daily crafting & endeavours) will be focused on surveys, antiquities, housing or perhaps deep-cleaning inventory & bank (a rather underrated skill).

Finding the survey location then choosing the shortest path to run far enough for resource respawn to happen is trivial. My pain point seems to be 20 of the same survey type but by then with the Plentiful Harvest CP I have earned tons of resources.

spartaxoxo

Surveys are something that keeps me from interacting with other players in the zone, so I'm not sure that they actually accomplish anything good in regard to keeping a zone filled with people. I absolutely hate collecting them, so when I do collect surveys, I mostly stay to myself and don't help anyone. I'm there for one thing and one thing only. All the running back and forth and standing still at an empty spot might also give a brand-new player a false impression, as it does look strange from the outside in until you learn to recognize the movement pattern. 

We need more active things to do in zones. Stuff like a debuff to encourage vet players to quest, mini-incursions that are worth farming like the wandering world bosses, and mini-games. These rote, non-interactive activities that just encourage mindless and anti-social play should be made less time-consuming or passed off to companions or hirelings.

kargen27

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I oppose this idea because we need more players out and about doing activities in zones not less. The zones need to feel populated.

never noticed a difference, either because people are already indifferent about surveys, or because the surveys only occur at very very specific locations in the zones

zones are big enough 10 people doing surveys wont see anything but each other most likely unless they are near a quest hub

This supports my position that we don't need anything else put in the game that takes away from players being in zones doing stuff.

theres quite a lot of quests out there which take place in instances, not in the open, if anything that takes more people out of zone than a few people going to very specific spots for 2 minutes to harvest the survey nodes

85% of the time im doing a treasure map or survey, the only time i see any players is when i port to the wayshrine nearest to the dig/harvest site, and then only occasionally see other players at the dig/harvest site

there is also the percentage of players who dislike doing these things, and "trying to get them out in the zone" is not a valid reason for them to bother or care and still continue to not do the maps and surveys

at least they have an option to give maps to players who do enjoy that, while they dont for surveys, which is why people let them pile up, they cant sell them and dont want to do them themselves

Again that points to needing more reasons for players to be in these zones and not less. The suggestion in this thread was the creation of a hireling to do the surveys. Not being able to sell surveys would be a different talking point. I think hirelings doing surveys would hurt the game in part because it would cause zones to be less populated than they are now. The responses I've received support that the zones feel empty and could use more not less players.

again the point im bringing up is that surveys alone will not solve that problem lol, in fact i dont think it would even remotely matter because most of the time if someone is doing a survey, they port to the 1 wayshrine nearest the survey, and ride straight to the survey and then either 1) port back to the wayshrine to repeat, or 2) port out of the zone entirely as they had no more reason to stay there

what is the definition of a zone feeling empty? a zone could feel empty but you go to a town and it has 30 people at the wayshrine, sure its going to feel empty if your in a more remote spot in the zone with no quests, vendors, or even other NPCs present (theres a few spots like that in craglorn near the edges of the map, but i would never call craglorn an "empty zone")

i think the "zones feel empty" and "more convenient material surveys" arguments are comparing apples to oranges and need to be discussed separately

I agree surveys alone will not make the zones feel more populated. Getting rid of them only makes it worse. I've seen no compelling argument to allowing hirelings to do surveys. I don't feel like doing them but I want the materials isn't a compelling argument.

Elrond87

don't mind getting them, its the running away or porting to a none owned house to respawn them is a problem, can't they make it respawn instantly?

LaintalAy

I'd rather see a 3-point passive for harvesting:

1 pt -Alchemy ingredient
2 pt -Worms/crawlers etc
3 pt -Furnishing mats

That would mean that folks harvesting 'just the furn mats' would need to waste 3 skill points to engage in this objectionable behaviour.

On the crafting surveys, they need to drop much more in the way of bugs and furn mats to qualify the term "LUSH".

Note to ZOS: 4 x wormwood in three nodes out of six is not LUSH. It is SCABBY.

katanagirl1

LaintalAy wrote: »

I'd rather see a 3-point passive for harvesting:

1 pt -Alchemy ingredient
2 pt -Worms/crawlers etc
3 pt -Furnishing mats

That would mean that folks harvesting 'just the furn mats' would need to waste 3 skill points to engage in this objectionable behaviour.

On the crafting surveys, they need to drop much more in the way of bugs and furn mats to qualify the term "LUSH".

Note to ZOS: 4 x wormwood in three nodes out of six is not LUSH. It is SCABBY.

We can already get furnishing mats with what we have already, though it is a rare drop. Why are you suggesting using 3 skill points for that? It’s not like they’d raise the rate, they seem adamant that what we have is enough.

I can’t see that being a good thing. We can get drops for all three in one node now.

virtus753

katanagirl1 wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

I'd rather see a 3-point passive for harvesting:

1 pt -Alchemy ingredient
2 pt -Worms/crawlers etc
3 pt -Furnishing mats

That would mean that folks harvesting 'just the furn mats' would need to waste 3 skill points to engage in this objectionable behaviour.

On the crafting surveys, they need to drop much more in the way of bugs and furn mats to qualify the term "LUSH".

Note to ZOS: 4 x wormwood in three nodes out of six is not LUSH. It is SCABBY.

We can already get furnishing mats with what we have already, though it is a rare drop. Why are you suggesting using 3 skill points for that? It’s not like they’d raise the rate, they seem adamant that what we have is enough.

I can’t see that being a good thing. We can get drops for all three in one node now.

And honestly it's not what I would call rare. There's a 20% chance to get a furnishing mat from a non-survey node, which is further broken down into a 15% chance for 1x and a 5% chance to get 2x instead. (Surveys give no furnishing mats at all, ever, so there's no point in wasting effort trying to get blood from that stone.)

Using Plentiful Harvest does not change the chance of getting a furnishing mat in the first place, since it can only proc if you roll for a furnishing mat initially, but it increases yield when it procs by adding another roll (either 1x or 2x, split in that same 3:1 ratio). On average you'll increase your yield by whatever chance you have on the tooltip (so 50% greater yield on average with it maxed). With PH, there's a 7.50% chance to get 1x furnishing mat, 8.13% chance to get 2x, 3.75% chance to get 3x, and 0.63% chance to get 4x. Without it, you'll get an average of 25 furnishing mats per 100 pulls; with it, you'll get an average of 37.5 per 100. I'm a bit lucky and have gotten 1926 furnishing mats from 5123 pulls with PH, averaging out to 37.595 per 100 pulls.

twev

furiouslog wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

The problem with the surveys is that they are boring, and an isolated and time-consuming activity. Also some of the survey locations are so painful to reach that I just destroy them (but there are only a couple of those - I'm looking at you in particular, Shadowfen).

I really hate Lost Ark, but they did a handful of things well, and one of them was this: instead of giving players access to special nodes, they got keys to enter a resource rich instance where 1-4 players could team up and harvest all at once. If the teams were able to coordinate well, they'd unlock other areas which gave them more resources, etc etc. It had a 15 minute timer, so once it was up, you were done.

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

Again, I hate Lost Ark, but that bit of design was pretty smart.

Sorry but this doesn’t seem like fun to me. I wouldn’t want to have to group up for farming mats. I prefer to do it alone and whenever is convenient for me,

You still could, you just get extra if you group, and also it's an idea to apply and think about, not implement as is. Try not to strangle the baby in its crib.

TaSheen wrote: »

I *think* the disconnect for me here is that I find running surveys fun, and apparently most others don't....

Yes, that is correct, and the reason is that it is not fun, it is a boring and horrible chore that i and everyone I play with hates.

That could be said about most aspects of the game by at least some of the players (for each aspect).
A subset of 'some of the players' would be 'many of the players', and applies to many other things than just surveys.
And a lot of the changes that were made to the game that people were clamoring for frequently worked out to be either less fun, less useful, or plain old 'bad' compared to the outcomes players were hoping for.
Be careful what you ask for, because some of the side effects can be worse than the thing you were asking to be changed.



Edited for completeness.

StarOfElyon

TaSheen wrote: »

I *think* the disconnect for me here is that I find running surveys fun, and apparently most others don't....

It's not fun for me but I do it when I'm in the mood to listen to YouTube videos and not really focus on the game. It's not as bad as treasure maps (those things can go to hell).

DenverRalphy

Survey maps were created to give crafters a guaranteed method to collect/harvest mats without having to compete with other players (and bots) over harvest nodes. And at a 6X bonus to boot! What survey maps were not created for, was for crafters to simply sit back and do nothing while the mats roll in.

For example..

• You can set out to harvest Ore. With no bonuses, you can trek around and farm 36 nodes to collect 108 ore, often while trying to beat other players and bots to those nodes.

OR

• You can whip out your handy survey map, skip up to the mapped out location with 6 convenient nodes that only you can harvest, and get the same amount of mats. Guaranteed!

A player can choose to trudge it out node farming the normal way, or they can take advantage of the survey maps. They provide a distinct and clear benefit. And if you compound that benefit with the available buffs to harvesting, they're even more beneficial. Either way, it's up to the player.

But what a player can't do (well, they can, but it'll show their nature), is moan about how horrible and inconvenient survey maps are.

NoticeMeArkay

DenverRalphy wrote: »

A player can choose to trudge it out node farming the normal way, or they can take advantage of the survey maps. They provide a distinct and clear benefit. And if you compound that benefit with the available buffs to harvesting, they're even more beneficial. Either way, it's up to the player.

But what a player can't do (well, they can, but it'll show their true nature), is moan about how horrible and inconvenient survey maps are.

My true nature is to share a simple idea without becoming overly judgemental to a stranger on an online forum, left alone insulting.

Necrotech_Master

kargen27 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I oppose this idea because we need more players out and about doing activities in zones not less. The zones need to feel populated.

never noticed a difference, either because people are already indifferent about surveys, or because the surveys only occur at very very specific locations in the zones

zones are big enough 10 people doing surveys wont see anything but each other most likely unless they are near a quest hub

This supports my position that we don't need anything else put in the game that takes away from players being in zones doing stuff.

theres quite a lot of quests out there which take place in instances, not in the open, if anything that takes more people out of zone than a few people going to very specific spots for 2 minutes to harvest the survey nodes

85% of the time im doing a treasure map or survey, the only time i see any players is when i port to the wayshrine nearest to the dig/harvest site, and then only occasionally see other players at the dig/harvest site

there is also the percentage of players who dislike doing these things, and "trying to get them out in the zone" is not a valid reason for them to bother or care and still continue to not do the maps and surveys

at least they have an option to give maps to players who do enjoy that, while they dont for surveys, which is why people let them pile up, they cant sell them and dont want to do them themselves

Again that points to needing more reasons for players to be in these zones and not less. The suggestion in this thread was the creation of a hireling to do the surveys. Not being able to sell surveys would be a different talking point. I think hirelings doing surveys would hurt the game in part because it would cause zones to be less populated than they are now. The responses I've received support that the zones feel empty and could use more not less players.

again the point im bringing up is that surveys alone will not solve that problem lol, in fact i dont think it would even remotely matter because most of the time if someone is doing a survey, they port to the 1 wayshrine nearest the survey, and ride straight to the survey and then either 1) port back to the wayshrine to repeat, or 2) port out of the zone entirely as they had no more reason to stay there

what is the definition of a zone feeling empty? a zone could feel empty but you go to a town and it has 30 people at the wayshrine, sure its going to feel empty if your in a more remote spot in the zone with no quests, vendors, or even other NPCs present (theres a few spots like that in craglorn near the edges of the map, but i would never call craglorn an "empty zone")

i think the "zones feel empty" and "more convenient material surveys" arguments are comparing apples to oranges and need to be discussed separately

I agree surveys alone will not make the zones feel more populated. Getting rid of them only makes it worse. I've seen no compelling argument to allowing hirelings to do surveys. I don't feel like doing them but I want the materials isn't a compelling argument.

i would rather have options

some days i may want to go out and harvest myself, other days i might just want to pay for the hireling to do it, either way your still getting the same quantity of stuff

in all honesty the hireling method would probably be worse long term, because it most likely would not take any of your cp passives into account (so no plentiful harvest chance at all), and it would act as a gold sink if you had to pay 10k or 100k per survey

some people would be fine with taking the gold hit at 100k per survey if it means they didnt have to run out to do them, while others might want to do it manually for the possibly better mat return

realistically i dont see it affecting zone population any more than it does now, which is likely minimal due to the surveys being in very specific spots you may or may not see anyway, and giving people an option which does not involve physically going out to the survey spot will be unlikely to affect that any more or less than how things currently are

furiouslog

twev wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

The problem with the surveys is that they are boring, and an isolated and time-consuming activity. Also some of the survey locations are so painful to reach that I just destroy them (but there are only a couple of those - I'm looking at you in particular, Shadowfen).

I really hate Lost Ark, but they did a handful of things well, and one of them was this: instead of giving players access to special nodes, they got keys to enter a resource rich instance where 1-4 players could team up and harvest all at once. If the teams were able to coordinate well, they'd unlock other areas which gave them more resources, etc etc. It had a 15 minute timer, so once it was up, you were done.

ZOS could make a few harvesting maps for instancing, and design a cooperative harvesting game type that could be played like any other menu daily (e.g. normal dungeons) - except you need a key to enter it, and the keys would drop just like the surveys drop now. It would take what is a lonely and boring activity and turn it into another opportunity for social events and so forth. All of the guilds who do farming parties to fund guild activities could use this as their central means of gathering items. Meta item sets for farming would become an important element of the game. And we'd just get rid of the surveys, and receive harvesting keys as a currency that gets stored until you want to go do some harvesting with your friends.

Again, I hate Lost Ark, but that bit of design was pretty smart.

Sorry but this doesn’t seem like fun to me. I wouldn’t want to have to group up for farming mats. I prefer to do it alone and whenever is convenient for me,

You still could, you just get extra if you group, and also it's an idea to apply and think about, not implement as is. Try not to strangle the baby in its crib.

TaSheen wrote: »

I *think* the disconnect for me here is that I find running surveys fun, and apparently most others don't....

Yes, that is correct, and the reason is that it is not fun, it is a boring and horrible chore that i and everyone I play with hates.

That could be said about most aspects of the game by at least some of the players (for each aspect).
A subset of 'some of the players' would be 'many of the players', and applies to many other things than just surveys.
And a lot of the changes that were made to the game that people were clamoring for frequently worked out to be either less fun, less useful, or plain old 'bad' compared to the outcomes players were hoping for.
Be careful what you ask for, because some of the side effects can be worse than the thing you were asking to be changed.



Edited for completeness.

Okay, so just live with it is the solution? Fair enough, I guess.

I just think games should be fun, not work. All aspects of the game should be engaging. I'm sure everyone agrees that gams ought to be fun? Can we all agree on that?

If we can, we do have to acknowledge that not everyone has the same definition of fun. I did a bunch of surveys yesterday. It's boring and repetitive. I can understand why some people enjoy wandering around, picking up chests or murking a boss along the way. I get in those moods sometimes too. That type of "fun" goal can be accomplished outside of the surveys, just wander around craglorn like very farming party does, and blissfully zen out.

But, if I need mats as a means to sustain my crafting goals, I have to get them somehow, and surveys are the fastest way relative to other methods. If I buy mats, it undermines my crafting, so that is not an option, and it's not terribly efficient either. So I am forced to spend time doing something I don't want to do to progress. That's not playing the way I want. Yesterday, I spent about 90 minutes in two zones digging up a backlog of surveys. There was nothing enjoyable about it at all, but there are no enjoyable alternatives that provide the same utility.

The people who enjoy gathering can always gather regular nodes. It seems like there is a space to give more players who enjoy active engagements something to do to get mats as well.

There are already things in game that let you do that to an extent, but it's pretty limited (e.g. buying alchemy bags with telvar). I proposed a harvesting instance that would allow for both solo and grouping, so that harvesting is more of a game, and gives you some value for the time spent as well as individual talent. People didn't like that - having experienced it myself I found it pretty fun.

So maybe make it possible to buy "lush crates" of mats with undaunted keys, or perhaps a new currency that drops from dungeons and trials? That would probably overwhelm the market with mats, so probably not a good thing?

What I don't agree with is giving up an ideation exercise entirely just because of the fear of unintended consequences. In most cases when ZOS made changes that made people even more unhappy, it was because they have their own (often inscrutable) motivations, which are separate from those of the players. There are other times that they hit the ball out of the park because they made changes due to community feedback. Maybe account for some of those, too.

virtus753

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Survey maps were created to give crafters a guaranteed method to collect/harvest mats without having to compete with other players (and bots) over harvest nodes. And at a 6X bonus to boot! What survey maps were not created for, was for crafters to simply sit back and do nothing while the mats roll in.

For example..

• You can set out to harvest Ore. With no bonuses, you can trek around and farm 36 nodes to collect 108 ore, often while trying to beat other players and bots to those nodes.

OR

• You can whip out your handy survey map, skip up to the mapped out location with 6 convenient nodes that only you can harvest, and get the same amount of mats. Guaranteed!

A player can choose to trudge it out node farming the normal way, or they can take advantage of the survey maps. They provide a distinct and clear benefit. And if you compound that benefit with the available buffs to harvesting, they're even more beneficial. Either way, it's up to the player.

But what a player can't do (well, they can, but it'll show their nature), is moan about how horrible and inconvenient survey maps are.

36 pulls of non-survey ore nodes will give an average of 113.76 base mats (3x 84% of the time and 4x 16% of the time), plus an average of 9 Regulus (15% chance of getting 1x, 5% chance of getting 2x) and an average of 9 dust (which will be either character level-based or crafting rank-based, whichever the ore is).

One blacksmithing survey will yield on average 114 base mats (50% chance of 18x and 50% chance of 20x ore). It will never drop Regulus or dust.

The convenience of the survey is offset by the additional mats provided by the non-survey nodes and the competition there. Whether it is only partially offset or more than makes up for it will be up to the player.

ETA: Also, Luminous Ink does not currently drop from surveys on the PTS, and ZOS made some adjustments to drop rates from enemies but seems to have stuck by Ink not dropping from surveys. That will be a nice advantage to harvesting non-survey nodes starting next update.

DenverRalphy

virtus753 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Survey maps were created to give crafters a guaranteed method to collect/harvest mats without having to compete with other players (and bots) over harvest nodes. And at a 6X bonus to boot! What survey maps were not created for, was for crafters to simply sit back and do nothing while the mats roll in.

For example..

• You can set out to harvest Ore. With no bonuses, you can trek around and farm 36 nodes to collect 108 ore, often while trying to beat other players and bots to those nodes.

OR

• You can whip out your handy survey map, skip up to the mapped out location with 6 convenient nodes that only you can harvest, and get the same amount of mats. Guaranteed!

A player can choose to trudge it out node farming the normal way, or they can take advantage of the survey maps. They provide a distinct and clear benefit. And if you compound that benefit with the available buffs to harvesting, they're even more beneficial. Either way, it's up to the player.

But what a player can't do (well, they can, but it'll show their nature), is moan about how horrible and inconvenient survey maps are.

36 pulls of non-survey ore nodes will give an average of 113.76 base mats (3x 84% of the time and 4x 16% of the time), plus an average of 9 Regulus (15% chance of getting 1x, 5% chance of getting 2x) and an average of 9 dust (which will be either character level-based or crafting rank-based, whichever the ore is).

One blacksmithing survey will yield on average 114 base mats (50% chance of 18x and 50% chance of 20x ore). It will never drop Regulus or dust.

The convenience of the survey is offset by the additional mats provided by the non-survey nodes and the competition there. Whether it is only partially offset or more than makes up for it will be up to the player.

ETA: Also, Luminous Ink does not currently drop from surveys on the PTS, and ZOS made some adjustments to drop rates from enemies but seems to have stuck by Ink not dropping from surveys. That will be a nice advantage to harvesting non-survey nodes starting next update.

I chose to use the base mats lowest possible outcome to keep the math simple. Being precise isn't required to make the point.

And no, the convenience isn't offset by not dropping furnishing mats. Furnishing mats are an entirely different entity that happen to be tied to regular nodes instead of creating a whole new batch/type of nodes when furnishing was introduced. Surveys aren't supposed to drop them, and don't need to. The entire point of surveys are to give crafters the ability to harvest regular resources without having to fight other players for them. That's it. That simple.

AzuraFan

furiouslog wrote: »

So I am forced to spend time doing something I don't want to do to progress. That's not playing the way I want.

Playing the way you want is a marketing slogan, not reality. I wish I could truly play the way I want, but I can't, and neither can you, if you mean that you have to enjoy every single activity in the game, or at least those with rewards you want.

I do understand where you're coming from, though. The problem is that boring/engaging is in the eyes of each player. What you find boring, another player might enjoy doing. And vice versa.

I like doing surveys. I do them when I just want to relax and be out in the world. I don't want them turned into some type of new activity, or replaced by hirelings, or to involve something like undaunted keys (because I don't like doing dungeons).

There are a lot of other things I'd rather ZOS focus on than changing surveys for those who don't like doing them. If you want to craft and use surveys to gather materials, then you'll have to grit you teeth and do that. You certainly won't be the only player who has to do something you don't enjoy to get what you want. Otherwise there are ways to not use surveys. Buy mats from guild traders, or gather them as you adventure out in the world.

furiouslog

AzuraFan wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

So I am forced to spend time doing something I don't want to do to progress. That's not playing the way I want.

Playing the way you want is a marketing slogan, not reality. I wish I could truly play the way I want, but I can't, and neither can you, if you mean that you have to enjoy every single activity in the game, or at least those with rewards you want.

I do understand where you're coming from, though. The problem is that boring/engaging is in the eyes of each player. What you find boring, another player might enjoy doing. And vice versa.

I like doing surveys. I do them when I just want to relax and be out in the world. I don't want them turned into some type of new activity, or replaced by hirelings, or to involve something like undaunted keys (because I don't like doing dungeons).

There are a lot of other things I'd rather ZOS focus on than changing surveys for those who don't like doing them. If you want to craft and use surveys to gather materials, then you'll have to grit you teeth and do that. You certainly won't the only player who has to do something you don't enjoy to get what you want. Otherwise there are ways to not use surveys. Buy mats from guild traders, or gather them as you adventure out in the world.

I know how to do it. I've been playing since beta, and I certainly agree that there are other things ZOS could focus on that are more important. I just think that there is an opportunity here to make harvesting more entertaining, and when people adopt a "if you don't like it go find another game" attitude, it basically kills constructive and creative dialog. It is, in fact, a pointless and toxic thing to say.

AzuraFan

furiouslog wrote: »

I know how to do it. I've been playing since beta, and I certainly agree that there are other things ZOS could focus on that are more important. I just think that there is an opportunity here to make harvesting more entertaining, and when people adopt a "if you don't like it go find another game" attitude, it basically kills constructive and creative dialog. It is, in fact, a pointless thing to say.

I haven't seen anyone with an attitude of "go find another game." But if you don't like doing surveys, perhaps being a crafter isn't the right in-game activity for you. If I hated doing surveys, I wouldn't become a crafter, unless I was willing to gather mats without using surveys, or buy them from guild traders. I'd want to focus on those activities I do enjoy. I think most players do that.

But you're right, there's nothing wrong with suggesting that an activity in the game become more entertaining. The danger, as someone else has already pointed out, is that the change might not be to your liking, or that you could ruin the activity for those who enjoy it as it is right now.

(and hey, when you post an idea to the forums, you have to expect some pushback. Not everyone will agree with your idea. )

TaSheen

@furiouslog - it would definitely not make harvesting more entertaining for me. But as long as it's OPTIONAL, it's fine. Your ideas would make me hate the whole thing....

So if you win, you see, I lose.

furiouslog

AzuraFan wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

I know how to do it. I've been playing since beta, and I certainly agree that there are other things ZOS could focus on that are more important. I just think that there is an opportunity here to make harvesting more entertaining, and when people adopt a "if you don't like it go find another game" attitude, it basically kills constructive and creative dialog. It is, in fact, a pointless thing to say.

I haven't seen anyone with an attitude of "go find another game." But if you don't like doing surveys, perhaps being a crafter isn't the right in-game activity for you. If I hated doing surveys, I wouldn't become a crafter, unless I was willing to gather mats without using surveys, or buy them from guild traders. I'd want to focus on those activities I do enjoy. I think most players do that.

But you're right, there's nothing wrong with suggesting that an activity in the game become more entertaining. The danger, as someone else has already pointed out, is that the change might not be to your liking, or that you could ruin the activity for those who enjoy it as it is right now.

(and hey, when you post an idea to the forums, you have to expect some pushback. Not everyone will agree with your idea. )

I'm good with pushback. I've spent my entire life doing statistical management and marketing research. People hate being confronted with data. What I want is for people to add on to ideas, not murder them (unless it is a government policy, then we need murderboards). Point is, is build on, don't tear down.

Perhaps I inferred from your statement that you were being dismissive, but saying "grit your teeth and bear it" is basically the same as "if you don't like it, go find another game" because leaving the game is the only alternative to me gritting my teeth. It's an ultimatum-style power move. Don't pretend otherwise.

furiouslog

TaSheen wrote: »

@furiouslog - it would definitely not make harvesting more entertaining for me. But as long as it's OPTIONAL, it's fine. Your ideas would make me hate the whole thing....

So if you win, you see, I lose.

So, if I understand you correctly, you find the current survey system without any flaws as it stands? I speak specifically about surveys, not the entire harvesting mechanic at large.

TaSheen

furiouslog wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@furiouslog - it would definitely not make harvesting more entertaining for me. But as long as it's OPTIONAL, it's fine. Your ideas would make me hate the whole thing....

So if you win, you see, I lose.

So, if I understand you correctly, you find the current survey system without any flaws as it stands? I speak specifically about surveys, not the entire harvesting mechanic at large.

Yes I do. I LOVE getting out to do surveys - it's kind of a vacation for me. I LOVE wandering around from zone to zone replenishing my supplies. I RP in my mind the whole time, on whichever character I'm playing. As for the "entire harvesting mechanic at large" I also love that - every character I'm playing is picking every node she runs across.

Just like I love reading all the books on all my alts, and researching all the traits on all my alts, and doing writs on lots of my alts (not all of them - writs are okay on a dozen girls a day or so over 4 accounts, but beyond that it's pretty stultifying).

I wouldn't be "entertained" by your ideas - but again, as long as it's optional (so I don't have to do stuff I wouldn't find fun or entertaining), that's fine.