Allow proc sets in no-cp please

Diamond_10 · May 1

Whats the harm? We only play no-cp because of being fairly new to the game and dont want to get smashed by people with thousands of cp. The sets have absolutely no effect on it aside from causing Bethesda a lot of problems with whgich work which dont work etc.
Its all a shambles, just leave the sets alone and have it no-cp like the battlegrounds.
Also new players being put off by gearing for cyrodiil only to find that the sets they spend what gold they had on, dont work. Imagine that feeling. Its quit status to some.

Dragonnord · May 1

There is a reason why ZOS changed things to prevent proc sets to work in no-CP campaigns.

Things are a lot more balanced this way and the gap between experienced and less experienced players is a lot smaller when CP's and proc sets are not allowed.

Again, ZOS decided to change it and it was the right choice.

dinokstrunz · May 1

A lot of people left noCP campaign. I'm willing to bet noCP will be a lot more popular with procs than without. NoCP population has disappeared over the years. Either quit, moved to more popular campaign or just primarily plays Battlegrounds.

TybaltKaine · May 1

No thanks. Too many players lean on sets as it is as a crutch in PVP. I'd much rather go to no CP and have a match be defined by skill as opposed to who can run the META in a giant ball group. Have you been to full CP Cyro? It's a nightmare.

xylena_lazarow · May 1

Dragonnord wrote: »

Things are a lot more balanced this way and the gap between experienced and less experienced players is a lot smaller when CP's and proc sets are not allowed

The curated set list for Ravenwatch does not exist in game, is not provided by ZOS anywhere at all, and is extremely unintuitive once you do manage to find a source for the list, as stat buff sets like Rallying Cry end up banned because they're technically still "proc sets." This heavily favors players with wide knowledge of existing sets, and a deep knowledge of which build archetypes are best positioned in a meta where sets can't be used to mitigate other balance flaws.

The tragically low Ravenwatch population (for years now) is evidence enough of this game mode's abject failure to attain its supposed goals of a PvP environment that is more fair or accessible. The experience gap there is massive.

Dragonnord · May 1

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Things are a lot more balanced this way and the gap between experienced and less experienced players is a lot smaller when CP's and proc sets are not allowed

The curated set list for Ravenwatch does not exist in game, is not provided by ZOS anywhere at all, and is extremely unintuitive once you do manage to find a source for the list, as stat buff sets like Rallying Cry end up banned because they're technically still "proc sets." This heavily favors players with wide knowledge of existing sets, and a deep knowledge of which build archetypes are best positioned in a meta where sets can't be used to mitigate other balance flaws.

The tragically low Ravenwatch population (for years now) is evidence enough of this game mode's abject failure to attain its supposed goals of a PvP environment that is more fair or accessible. The experience gap there is massive.

You're brining a different situation to the table. Another thread should be opened for that in any case, because that's something specific regarding the lack of information on allowed sets, what sets should be considered (or not) proc, and so.

Veinblood1965 · May 1

Literally no one plays in no-cp campaigns, well hardly anyone. I've gone into Cyrodiil and managed to take 4 keeps all by myself once. The only reason I go there now is to gather skyshards on new characters or to pick up a quest which gives me a travel to or capture a resource closer to home, then switch to CP and complete it and I've never once, not even one time seen anyone of the opposite alliance. So really it does not matter if it is no proc and no champion points there's no one there to fight against. Something needs to be changed, allow proc sets and see if that works. For myself it won't as I like proc sets, gives a whole range of play styles.

As for IC there are people there every once in a while, mainly during events. But same thing there, skyshard mainly.

furiouslog · May 1

Do not do this, it's great as is.

Reginald_leBlem · May 1

We have come full circle, as we always knew we would.

Oblivion_Protocol · May 1

People go to no-CP to avoid proc sets. If you introduce these sets to Ravenwatch, you’ll pretty much kill the game mode. Have you ever played a Battleground and gotten absolutely stomped? Well, it’ll be the same thing in Ravenwatch because BGs are no-cp with procs enabled. Just go there and see whether this is really something you’d want with the potential for ball groups.

dinokstrunz · May 1

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

People go to no-CP to avoid proc sets. If you introduce these sets to Ravenwatch, you’ll pretty much kill the game mode. Have you ever played a Battleground and gotten absolutely stomped? Well, it’ll be the same thing in Ravenwatch because BGs are no-cp with procs enabled. Just go there and see whether this is really something you’d want with the potential for ball groups.

Nah. People just want action, they will go where the action is that's why Gray Host consistently active and Battlegrounds solo matches are very active. If you're getting stomped then it's just a clear skill issue nothing more. Ball groups love noproc because they're unironically harder to kill there, the reason they don't stick around is because there's nobody to fight most of the time lol. Yes there's unfortunately some bad offenders sets when it comes to procs and they should be looked like (Rallying Cry, Rushing Agony and maybe Tarnished). Most sets are genuinely not that big of a deal that's a fact.

derkaiserliche · May 1

how about no?

We high cp players play no cp BECAUSE proc sets are often unbalanced

Kartalin · May 1

Two main issues I see with Ravenwatch and both are related to sets:

1) The fact that the sets that actually work in Ravenwatch has never been provided to players beyond the earliest iterations and this is not information available to players in game

2) The completely slap dash nature of the combination of sets provided. Why not just limit the 5 piece bonuses to "anything that is always-on". Like why was Order's Wrath not available to use for some time in Ravenwatch?

It should not be a surprise to anyone that players might get frustrated in this situation.

Marronsuisse · May 1

I would like a campaign with proc sets and no CP but I don't want to take away no-proc no-CP from people who enjoy that... and unfortunately I don't think there's a big enough population to support fragmenting the campaigns even further by having both.

spartaxoxo · May 1

If you want procs, go to cp Cyrodiil. Let people who enjoy not having to deal with them go there instead.

React · May 1

On PC NA, Ravenwatch gets a maximum of 4 bars of total population during prime time on the weekend (typically 2 bars on one faction, one on each of the other two factions). Occasionally it will have a pop locked faction during weekend prime time. On weeknights, usually there is no more than one bar of total population, which is probably about 20-30 total players in the campaign. You genuinely can go in and take multiple keeps and outposts by yourself, completely unchallenged 95% of the time.

Meanwhile, blackreach and gray host are pop locked every single night.

I like the idea of no proc. The concept of a purely stat based sets environment is good. The problem is that the sets available are far too limited in number, and players don't want to have to have a 2nd, or even 3rd pvp build for each character.

They need to make a pass on the sets allowed. Instead of disabling every single set with a proc of any kind, they should just disable sets with procs that heal you/others, cause damage for you, or distribute group buffs.

So sets like clever alchemist, trickery, stuhns, mythics like death dealers, pale order, and monster sets like balorgh, bloodspawn, etc will all be allowed to work. But sets like way of fire, scavenging demise, Tarnished, maras, hist sap, rallying cry, olorime, powerful assault, etc will NOT work.

The environment will remain stats based but with a far larger pool of sets that have more overlap/viability in both proc and no proc campaigns, while still disallowing the most problematic sets such as those that deal damage for you, those that heal for you, and those that distribute buffs to group members which are largely responsible for the oppressiveness of modern ballgroups.

furiouslog · May 1

Kartalin wrote: »

Two main issues I see with Ravenwatch and both are related to sets:

1) The fact that the sets that actually work in Ravenwatch has never been provided to players beyond the earliest iterations and this is not information available to players in game

2) The completely slap dash nature of the combination of sets provided. Why not just limit the 5 piece bonuses to "anything that is always-on". Like why was Order's Wrath not available to use for some time in Ravenwatch?

It should not be a surprise to anyone that players might get frustrated in this situation.

The lack of tooltip transparency is a problem across the board, but having clear rules for proc/no-proc and then having that status available on the tooltip would go a long way towards making the game type more accessible.

I also agree that people go where the action is, but I disagree that ball groups love no-proc. I was in 3 ball groups when no-proc was introduced, and all three of them went to Blackreach and Gray Host because they said that no-proc was boring and all of the other ball groups were leaving Ravenwatch. I personally stayed and made my own DC and EP groups for Ravenwatch, and that was the most fun I've had playing PVP in the game. Since then, Ravenwatch has become severely faction unbalanced due to the SEA contingent doing night caps for whatever faction inspired them that month, and it pretty much stayed that way, which is why I think no one seems to play in there anymore. People don't want to have to recapture their tri keeps when 2-3 people can easily hold them off with siege.

katanagirl1 · May 1

On PS NA no cp is always empty, even during Whitestrakes event it was empty. Probably only rare small scale pvdoor happens there.

twev · May 1

Keep in mind that newbs have to learn somewhere, and having a bunny-slope area for them to get some PvP XP without getting thrown in with adversaries who have more XP AND procs too probably frustrates/scares some newbs away.

Fewer newbs that learn how to PvP leads to fewer vets who earned their spurs in the easier areas.

'Under lvl 50' area might be fine, but I'll bet a lot of new PvP players don't start PvP before they have more game time, and are over lvl 50 by that point. And a lot of them won't have decent proc sets, or their rotations down, just because they are lvl 50 or above.

If you want more and better players in the adult areas - You have to have some place where they can swim with the guppies, first. Thats not to say Vets wont play against them in no-proc areas, but at least the combat will be a little more even.

I'm a lvl 3056 atm, and I never learned to be a decent PvP player.
So the about the only times I go to cyro at all are to rebuild gates/walls or grab skyshards, because, tbh, I'm just not very good at PvP.

Necrotech_Master · May 1

i used to main ravenwatch when it was no cp with procs, i stopped playing there when procs got disabled mostly because i find it incredibly boring

they also decided to do no proc in the no cp IC instance too, just awful lol

huntgod_ESO · May 1

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

People go to no-CP to avoid proc sets. If you introduce these sets to Ravenwatch, you’ll pretty much kill the game mode. Have you ever played a Battleground and gotten absolutely stomped? Well, it’ll be the same thing in Ravenwatch because BGs are no-cp with procs enabled. Just go there and see whether this is really something you’d want with the potential for ball groups.

What people the pops never seem to be above 1 bar...there is NEVER anyone in there. The only time I pop in is if the mission board won't give me a 3 keep or 9 resources...

xylena_lazarow · May 2

Funniest part of the proc debate these days is how S-tier magsorcs and NBs already run full stat, it's the flawed lower tier specs like DD Arc that rely on procs, so deleting procs just widens the gap between S-tier and everyone else.

There aren't even any overperforming damage procs anymore and they're nerfing the RoA pull. Probably the biggest balance problem in PvP right now is how absurd Hardened Ward becomes when you stack max mag with stat sets.

gariondavey · May 2

React wrote: »

On PC NA, Ravenwatch gets a maximum of 4 bars of total population during prime time on the weekend (typically 2 bars on one faction, one on each of the other two factions). Occasionally it will have a pop locked faction during weekend prime time. On weeknights, usually there is no more than one bar of total population, which is probably about 20-30 total players in the campaign. You genuinely can go in and take multiple keeps and outposts by yourself, completely unchallenged 95% of the time.

Meanwhile, blackreach and gray host are pop locked every single night.

I like the idea of no proc. The concept of a purely stat based sets environment is good. The problem is that the sets available are far too limited in number, and players don't want to have to have a 2nd, or even 3rd pvp build for each character.

They need to make a pass on the sets allowed. Instead of disabling every single set with a proc of any kind, they should just disable sets with procs that heal you/others, cause damage for you, or distribute group buffs.

So sets like clever alchemist, trickery, stuhns, mythics like death dealers, pale order, and monster sets like balorgh, bloodspawn, etc will all be allowed to work. But sets like way of fire, scavenging demise, Tarnished, maras, hist sap, rallying cry, olorime, powerful assault, etc will NOT work.

The environment will remain stats based but with a far larger pool of sets that have more overlap/viability in both proc and no proc campaigns, while still disallowing the most problematic sets such as those that deal damage for you, those that heal for you, and those that distribute buffs to group members which are largely responsible for the oppressiveness of modern ballgroups.

Came here to say the same thing.

Diamond_10 · May 5

Dragonnord wrote: »

There is a reason why ZOS changed things to prevent proc sets to work in no-CP campaigns.

Things are a lot more balanced this way and the gap between experienced and less experienced players is a lot smaller when CP's and proc sets are not allowed.

Again, ZOS decided to change it and it was the right choice.

Thats why BGs are booming and no-cp cyro is not.
Wrong choice.

Diamond_10 · May 5

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

People go to no-CP to avoid proc sets. If you introduce these sets to Ravenwatch, you’ll pretty much kill the game mode. Have you ever played a Battleground and gotten absolutely stomped? Well, it’ll be the same thing in Ravenwatch because BGs are no-cp with procs enabled. Just go there and see whether this is really something you’d want with the potential for ball groups.

same answer as above.
p.s - nobody goes ravenwatch because their sets dont work.

Diamond_10 · May 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If you want procs, go to cp Cyrodiil. Let people who enjoy not having to deal with them go there instead.

You are talking like the no-cp cyro was made as a playground for high-cp players to go play in.
Well you are wrong.
It was made so players with low CP can go and have some fair rvr, so all these arguments from high cp players not wanting their playground messed with are irrelevant, and its dead there anyway.

Give the newbs a real no-cp cyro to play in please.

spartaxoxo · May 5

Diamond_10 wrote: »

You are talking like the no-cp cyro was made as a playground for high-cp players to go play in.

I said no such thing. I said people who enjoy the no-proc ruleset should be able to. It's why the ruleset was added. So people who enjoyed not having to deal with procs had a campaign to go

Diamond_10 · May 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Diamond_10 wrote: »

You are talking like the no-cp cyro was made as a playground for high-cp players to go play in.

I said no such thing. I said people who enjoy the no-proc ruleset should be able to. It's why the ruleset was added. So people who enjoyed not having to deal with procs had a campaign to go

again wrong, it was not added so people who enjoyed not having to deal with procs had a campaign to go, it was added for low cp players to have somewhere to rvr without being stomped by people with thousands of cp.

spartaxoxo · May 5

Diamond_10 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Diamond_10 wrote: »

You are talking like the no-cp cyro was made as a playground for high-cp players to go play in.

I said no such thing. I said people who enjoy the no-proc ruleset should be able to. It's why the ruleset was added. So people who enjoyed not having to deal with procs had a campaign to go

again wrong, it was not added so people who enjoyed not having to deal with procs had a campaign to go, it was added for low cp players to have somewhere to rvr without being stomped by people with thousands of cp.

The no-proc ruleset was explicitly stated to be added because of the positive reception to it back when it was just a test. It was added long after the creation of no-cp.

Edit

We’ve heard from a lot of you that despite performance largely being the same, disabling proc sets has breathed new life into PvP gameplay and has made fights more enjoyable and fun. To that end, we’ll be leaving proc sets disabled until Update 31 launches in Q3. At that point, we will have implemented some new code so we can have more flexibility to campaign rulesets as it applies to proc sets.

First, we want to thank everyone for taking the time to provide so much valuable feedback regarding our decision to leave proc sets disabled in Cyrodiil until Update 31. We understand this is a very polarizing topic and while many of you like this direction, we acknowledge that there are just as many who do not. When we had the last Cyrodiil test activated, we did initially get a lot of positive feedback surrounding the removal of item set procs in Cyrodiil, and from a technical standpoint, it made sense for us to leave proc sets disabled until we were able to complete some additional necessary work for Update 31. We also recognize that disabling proc sets in the long term generated a lot more concern than the three-week test we initially proposed, and that this sudden change in the timeline was quite jarring.

We’ve spent a lot of time discussing our options to improve the experience in the short term. We still plan to leave proc sets disabled in Cyrodiil and will instead reduce the duration of this change until Update 30. With the Update 30 launch, we will then re-enable all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil alongside some additional planned proc set work (we'll provide details in the Update 30 Combat Preview). In Update 31, we still plan to add more flexibility and customizable campaign rulesets as it relates to item sets, and we will be able to fine tune which proc sets we turn on and off.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565283/update-on-proc-set-plan-in-cyrodiil

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p22

Vrienda · May 5

I think it'd be better if they just added a 'banned in no cp' tooltip to sets.

WaywardArgonian · May 5

Before anything is changed about the campaign, what needs to improve is the way whatever ruleset is in place is communicated towards players.

From what I gather from the developers, their vision for Ravenwatch is that of a more accessible campaign that does not require you to farm CP or gear endlessly in order to be competitive.

This is great in theory, but you can't intend for a campaign to be newcomer-friendly while making it so hard to fully grasp its ruleset that it even confuses veteran players. Even to this day I have to clear misconceptions on what sets do/don't work there. It is quite simply not possible to grasp it fully if you just go by in-game info.

All of this could be fixed just by including more robust information on the ruleset in the campaign window and perhaps adding a little icon to a set's tooltip to indicate that it works in a no-proc environment. Maybe then you will see the campaign get used more for the purpose the devs have in mind, and if not they can work towards some rebalancing to make Ravenwatch more attractive to players again.