NB is useless again

Foxtrot39

Sakiri wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

As assassin they're quite mediocre in single damage DPS but have about no AOE damage skill the problem in group content is they're utterly redundent as they offer no group utility at all (in trial damage reduction debuff don't do crap against mechanics and DOT's based on your health) and when it does its barely noticeable

Other classes can deal similar damage as cleave that a NB can only pull on a single target

Burst damage in PVE is usually worthless, you need sustained damage

Also this graph posted on the NB class discussion official thread



Also mfw tank NB isn't even on the graph

I don't see stam sorc either.

Just tank. I don't play mine to tank right now.

Stam sorc in in the middle

Araneae6537

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

As assassin they're quite mediocre in single damage DPS but have about no AOE damage skill the problem in group content is they're utterly redundent as they offer no group utility at all (in trial damage reduction debuff don't do crap against mechanics and DOT's based on your health) and when it does its barely noticeable

Other classes can deal similar damage as cleave that a NB can only pull on a single target

Burst damage in PVE is usually worthless, you need sustained damage

Also this graph posted on the NB class discussion official thread



Also mfw tank NB isn't even on the graph

I don’t understand what this list is. AFAIK, it’s been a looong time since stam necro DPS was considered good, much less top tier. How is DK healer anything but bottom tier? I like my sorc tank, but since when is it top tier? It must be ranking players who fill certain roles and those who fill niche / specialized roles are some of the best players? 🤔

reazea

As a PvP player few things are sweeter than NB tears.

Foxtrot39

reazea wrote: »

As a PvP player few things are sweeter than NB tears.

we're talking PVE here too, PVP NB dont have this level of handicap

Sakiri

Why are tanks so high up there?

And I'm having a hard time picking a main as it is, and I might have no choice but to swap off stamsorc if it's not even represented...

Foxtrot39

I had to get to page 8

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

As assassin they're quite mediocre in single damage DPS but have about no AOE damage skill the problem in group content is they're utterly redundent as they offer no group utility at all (in trial damage reduction debuff don't do crap against mechanics and DOT's based on your health) and when it does its barely noticeable

Other classes can deal similar damage as cleave that a NB can only pull on a single target

Burst damage in PVE is usually worthless, you need sustained damage

Also this graph posted on the NB class discussion official thread



Also mfw tank NB isn't even on the graph

I don’t understand what this list is. AFAIK, it’s been a looong time since stam necro DPS was considered good, much less top tier. How is DK healer anything but bottom tier? I like my sorc tank, but since when is it top tier? It must be ranking players who fill certain roles and those who fill niche / specialized roles are some of the best players? Is stam necro and not mag necro generally used for EC? 🤔

dunno but vDSR HM still make necro look decent DPS wise even with a large gap between lowest and top perfromers, that is data dating back 12 weeks max

Durham

Prionyx wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[Snip]

Every single patch it's the same thing:

"NB is dead", "NB got gutted", "NB is the worst class in the game for ALL content"

And yet despite these doom posts every single patch, for literally years now, the NB population, especially in PvP, continues to grow exponentially and NB is currently sitting atop the list for THE most played class in PvP at over a whopping 30% of players playing the class, or more than double what the population would be if all classes were equally balanced (which would have them sit at only 14.3%).

NB is going to be extremely broken in PvP next patch and not just solo/gankblades either, it's getting the following thanks to scribing:

- Streak (Vault) on one of its most preferred weapons (bow) (without having to give up cloak) that costs stamina (even when it heals), and (currently) has no ramping cost.
- a burst heal that restores resources and gives NB access to the LAST major buff (vitality) that they were somehow still lacking in their class kit
- AoE semi-spammable gank tool that doesnt break stealth, doesn't require charging stacks and hits as hard as MR
- delayed AoE burst that combines with AND ALSO buffs MR by a flat 2k
- a ranged version of concealed that deals up to twice the damage of regular spammables that also has execute scaling that also has major defile or major breach (frees up from running ele sus or NMG to get breach giving even more bar space)
- an AoE pull for tether bomb builds on a spammable ability
- potential access to strong damage shields
- potential access to a cleanse (removing cloaks only weakness being DoT)
- potential access to unique mitigation

Cloak was also not added to scribing, IN ANY CAPACITY.

This alone will keep NB as the best lead for organized groups because it can get into position much easier than other classes can to set up the dump and now it also has streak (without ramping cost) on-top of cloak and shade to get out again afterwards if things somehow go south.
On top of this, NB even got a new AoE tool that deals oblivion damage with execute scaling. Ball groups will simply run all NB now and stealth in and instantly wipe entire groups in under 1 second that cannot be countered. No need to run other classes when you can all just cloak in and 100-0 entire groups from stealth with 1 button press of a flat damage spammable while being 50k+ invis tanks with streak, movement speed and healing on top. It's going to be the bugged tarnished set fiasco all over again, but this time it will not be fixed because its part of the new scribing system.

NB also already had the most efficient bar space and overloaded abilities in the game, so NB inherently has the easiest time fitting the new scribing abilities alongside their already strong class abilities to fill niche roles, whereas other classes are forced to choose between scribing or class abilities depending which is more effective for their basic roles.

As was mentioned, on the PvE side NB was brought along in group content as a healer for its ulti generation capabilities that are still unmatched. That aspect was not taken away from NB and not even copied to the scribing abilities, so no, NB will not be vanishing at all from that healer role in PvE. NB also has the best way to inflict MAJOR cowardice so NB will still use that, but just won't be forced to keep the uptime on that debuff allowing more flexibility in the builds.

"NB has the most overloaded skills"


Warden with the best damage skill in the game that applies major AND minor breach and is also AoE, with best burst healing skill in the game that is in the same time BY FAR the best stun for solo PvP, with buff skill that grants major brutality and sorcery, passively purges debuffs and restores your resource, best AoE damage ulti in the game that also grants major protection and gives you extra WPD, with literally the best survivability among ALL classes even including arcanist ETC ETC: Am I joke to you? Warden is extremely broken for years yet you don't complain about wardens, while it's obvious for experienced players that warden is broken and strongest PvP class right now. Is it just easier to say "I can't roll dodge, NB is op"?

[Edited quote]

1. Warden does not have best damage skill in the game! Super easy to avoid! Non spamable. Completely false
2. Warden Polar wind is the best heal IMO. The only thing that out burst heals it is the DK heal at low health. However no stun is attached to it. The other heal is not best in the game that has a stun.
3. The stun is not the best stun because you have no idea when its going to hit! Therefore you can't really setup for it. Its good for aggravation and giving out stun immunity.
4. Yes the Netch is a great skill it does purge 1 negative effect every 5 secs.
5. Best AOE in the game again false ! That AOE can be simply be cloaked. Its expensive and I can heal through it on all my classes.
6. Warden is extremely broken for years, um no DKs/Nighblades were better hands down and played more over the past 2 years.
7. Playing a warden is like playing buffing. Your whole back bar is buffing abilities including some slots on your front.

Wardens are a jack of all trades in my opinion but they are not the best in any category. They are a solid class, if you nerf the burst heal they are trash IMO.

Theist_VII

While I don’t agree with Nightblade being bad now, I do agree Polar Wind is absolutely ridiculous and needs the biggest nerf ESO has ever seen. Take away the ability to off-heal.

Give it the jabs treatment.

Polar Wind embodies everything wrong with PvP… high health, high resistance, high sustain, healers. In no game with balance should there be players with +20% more health than the ones they are healing.

master_vanargand

People who say Nightblade is OP are exaggerating, as if Nightblade can use all skills at the same time.
Don't forget that there are only 10 skill and 2 ult slots .

StaticWave

master_vanargand wrote: »

People who say Nightblade is OP are exaggerating, as if Nightblade can use all skills at the same time.
Don't forget that there are only 10 skill and 2 ult slots .

They only need 2 skills for most scenarios. A spammable that deals 8-9k dmg and a burst ability that deals 15k+ dmg on a properly built player. The rest can be used for defensive abilities. A good NB is super lethal and hard to kill at the same time.

StaticWave

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:



Here is the tooltip for Dizzying Swing on that NB build:



Here is the tooltip for Concealed Weapon on that same build:



Guess what? Concealed tooltip isn't buffed by that 10% extra damage after leaving stealth yet. So add 10% of that 15.4k to the 15.4k tooltip, and we get 16.9k final Concealed value.

16.6k Dizzy vs 16.9k Concealed. Dizzy was the hardest hitting single target damage ability in the game until this patch. Concealed hits harder, doesn't come with a 0.8s cast time, and gives a more useful buff (Minor Expedition as oppose to a snare). Then you look at Spectral Bow's tooltip:



28.6k damage, which under Battle Spirit is 14.3k. Every 5s you can use this proc if you light attack weave, and did I mention it also gives you 300 WD/SD at full stacks, that also buffs Concealed tooltip? Let's also not forget the incredibly cheap 75 ult that makes all your attacks deal 20% more damage to a target. NB legitimately does not need more than 2 skills to kill people lol.

The only reliable counter for NB this patch is blocking. If you can permablock, you can negate most of its damage. It won't be easy though, because a good NB will have the tools to counter that. You could also put out so much pressure that the NB can't go offensive, but the NB can still crutch on Cloak and Shade. They'd just have to drop Phantasmal Escape to make room for Shade and they can kite indefinitely. After all, that Siphoning Attack buff has literally allowed them to run with ZERO regen and still almost never run out of sustain lol.

TechMaybeHic

Rush of Agony should not be the NBs source of power for group, although I'd say they still are fine in PvP ground aoe HOT with group hot with major expedition. But they could be made better for group PvP and PvE by reducing their single target damage and giving it to SAP for AOE damage and group healing. But if they want to remain so high single target, then they shouldnt have the group and AOE benefit so high

master_vanargand

StaticWave wrote: »

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:



Here is the tooltip for Dizzying Swing on that NB build:



Here is the tooltip for Concealed Weapon on that same build:



Guess what? Concealed tooltip isn't buffed by that 10% extra damage after leaving stealth yet. So add 10% of that 15.4k to the 15.4k tooltip, and we get 16.9k final Concealed value.

16.6k Dizzy vs 16.9k Concealed. Dizzy was the hardest hitting single target damage ability in the game until this patch. Concealed hits harder, doesn't come with a 0.8s cast time, and gives a more useful buff (Minor Expedition as oppose to a snare). Then you look at Spectral Bow's tooltip:



28.6k damage, which under Battle Spirit is 14.3k. Every 5s you can use this proc if you light attack weave, and did I mention it also gives you 300 WD/SD at full stacks, that also buffs Concealed tooltip? Let's also not forget the incredibly cheap 75 ult that makes all your attacks deal 20% more damage to a target. NB legitimately does not need more than 2 skills to kill people lol.

The only reliable counter for NB this patch is blocking. If you can permablock, you can negate most of its damage. It won't be easy though, because a good NB will have the tools to counter that. You could also put out so much pressure that the NB can't go offensive, but the NB can still crutch on Cloak and Shade. They'd just have to drop Phantasmal Escape to make room for Shade and they can kite indefinitely. After all, that Siphoning Attack buff has literally allowed them to run with ZERO regen and still almost never run out of sustain lol.

The formulas on that website are notorious for having bugs.
Unless you show us the actual game screen, we can't tell if your information is correct.

Jman100582

master_vanargand wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:



Here is the tooltip for Dizzying Swing on that NB build:



Here is the tooltip for Concealed Weapon on that same build:



Guess what? Concealed tooltip isn't buffed by that 10% extra damage after leaving stealth yet. So add 10% of that 15.4k to the 15.4k tooltip, and we get 16.9k final Concealed value.

16.6k Dizzy vs 16.9k Concealed. Dizzy was the hardest hitting single target damage ability in the game until this patch. Concealed hits harder, doesn't come with a 0.8s cast time, and gives a more useful buff (Minor Expedition as oppose to a snare). Then you look at Spectral Bow's tooltip:



28.6k damage, which under Battle Spirit is 14.3k. Every 5s you can use this proc if you light attack weave, and did I mention it also gives you 300 WD/SD at full stacks, that also buffs Concealed tooltip? Let's also not forget the incredibly cheap 75 ult that makes all your attacks deal 20% more damage to a target. NB legitimately does not need more than 2 skills to kill people lol.

The only reliable counter for NB this patch is blocking. If you can permablock, you can negate most of its damage. It won't be easy though, because a good NB will have the tools to counter that. You could also put out so much pressure that the NB can't go offensive, but the NB can still crutch on Cloak and Shade. They'd just have to drop Phantasmal Escape to make room for Shade and they can kite indefinitely. After all, that Siphoning Attack buff has literally allowed them to run with ZERO regen and still almost never run out of sustain lol.

The formulas on that website are notorious for having bugs.
Unless you show us the actual game screen, we can't tell if your information is correct.

While not 100% accurate on tooltips, are you really going to argue that dizzying swing is a better pvp spammable than concealed? I don’t see nbs using d swing. Surely I’m missing something /s

Also, rush doesn’t define nb power in pvp. Rush deserves a nerf, it’s a ridiculously overtuned set and it will see use as long as it doesn’t apply cc immunity. There will always be a nb in EVERY pvp group comp, regardless of if it’s a 4 man or a 12 man, the class is loaded with group utility. Strong burst heals/cross healing, gives the group major expedition with path, a strong aoe cc, can apply both major and minor cowardice which makes your group extremely tanky. None of that is going away because rush got a deserved nerf

xylena_lazarow

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Polar Wind embodies everything wrong with PvP

Healthy Offering comes pretty close, with a buff that offsets its own drawback and rewards you for spamming it, being as strong as Coagulating Blood while adding the ability to heal your allies. On the mega damage assassin class.

Theist_VII

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Polar Wind embodies everything wrong with PvP

Healthy Offering comes pretty close, with a buff that offsets its own drawback and rewards you for spamming it, being as strong as Coagulating Blood while adding the ability to heal your allies. On the mega damage assassin class.

100%

Foxtrot39

StaticWave wrote: »

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:

[cut quote to avoid wall of text].

Sir we're talking PVE NB being useless

xylena_lazarow

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Sir we're talking PVE NB being useless

OP literally includes "PvP" in their argument

StaticWave

master_vanargand wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:



Here is the tooltip for Dizzying Swing on that NB build:



Here is the tooltip for Concealed Weapon on that same build:



Guess what? Concealed tooltip isn't buffed by that 10% extra damage after leaving stealth yet. So add 10% of that 15.4k to the 15.4k tooltip, and we get 16.9k final Concealed value.

16.6k Dizzy vs 16.9k Concealed. Dizzy was the hardest hitting single target damage ability in the game until this patch. Concealed hits harder, doesn't come with a 0.8s cast time, and gives a more useful buff (Minor Expedition as oppose to a snare). Then you look at Spectral Bow's tooltip:



28.6k damage, which under Battle Spirit is 14.3k. Every 5s you can use this proc if you light attack weave, and did I mention it also gives you 300 WD/SD at full stacks, that also buffs Concealed tooltip? Let's also not forget the incredibly cheap 75 ult that makes all your attacks deal 20% more damage to a target. NB legitimately does not need more than 2 skills to kill people lol.

The only reliable counter for NB this patch is blocking. If you can permablock, you can negate most of its damage. It won't be easy though, because a good NB will have the tools to counter that. You could also put out so much pressure that the NB can't go offensive, but the NB can still crutch on Cloak and Shade. They'd just have to drop Phantasmal Escape to make room for Shade and they can kite indefinitely. After all, that Siphoning Attack buff has literally allowed them to run with ZERO regen and still almost never run out of sustain lol.

The formulas on that website are notorious for having bugs.
Unless you show us the actual game screen, we can't tell if your information is correct.

It's only bugged for some tooltips. The stats should be fairly accurate for the most part.

But since you asked, here's the NB build on live:



Max SD and mag:



Max weapon critical, crit damage (no Minor Brittle) and base pen:




Here's the NB build copied to the exact detail on Editor:







So on the live server I have 31249 max mag, 6357 spell damage, 11813 base pen, 85% crit damage, 39.4% crit chance. On the Editor I have 31248 max mag, 6360 spell damage, 11813 base pen, 85% crit damage, 39.4% crit chance. Literally identical stats lol.

Concealed tooltip on live:



Dizzy tooltip on live:


The tooltip on Editor is lower though, so that's probably the bug you're talking about. Regardless, we're comparing tooltips between Dizzy and Concealed, and you can see that Concealed has a bigger tooltip than Dizzy, doesn't come with a cast time, and applies a better minor buff.

StaticWave

Let's also not forget that you're limited to using 2h for Dizzy, which means lower max stats. Concealed allows you to use DW to get an even higher tooltip than Dizzy. It's not uncommon to see 17k Concealed tooltip on a decent build.

master_vanargand

StaticWave wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:



Here is the tooltip for Dizzying Swing on that NB build:



Here is the tooltip for Concealed Weapon on that same build:



Guess what? Concealed tooltip isn't buffed by that 10% extra damage after leaving stealth yet. So add 10% of that 15.4k to the 15.4k tooltip, and we get 16.9k final Concealed value.

16.6k Dizzy vs 16.9k Concealed. Dizzy was the hardest hitting single target damage ability in the game until this patch. Concealed hits harder, doesn't come with a 0.8s cast time, and gives a more useful buff (Minor Expedition as oppose to a snare). Then you look at Spectral Bow's tooltip:



28.6k damage, which under Battle Spirit is 14.3k. Every 5s you can use this proc if you light attack weave, and did I mention it also gives you 300 WD/SD at full stacks, that also buffs Concealed tooltip? Let's also not forget the incredibly cheap 75 ult that makes all your attacks deal 20% more damage to a target. NB legitimately does not need more than 2 skills to kill people lol.

The only reliable counter for NB this patch is blocking. If you can permablock, you can negate most of its damage. It won't be easy though, because a good NB will have the tools to counter that. You could also put out so much pressure that the NB can't go offensive, but the NB can still crutch on Cloak and Shade. They'd just have to drop Phantasmal Escape to make room for Shade and they can kite indefinitely. After all, that Siphoning Attack buff has literally allowed them to run with ZERO regen and still almost never run out of sustain lol.

The formulas on that website are notorious for having bugs.
Unless you show us the actual game screen, we can't tell if your information is correct.

It's only bugged for some tooltips. The stats should be fairly accurate for the most part.

But since you asked, here's the NB build on live:



Max SD and mag:



Max weapon critical, crit damage (no Minor Brittle) and base pen:




Here's the NB build copied to the exact detail on Editor:







So on the live server I have 31249 max mag, 6357 spell damage, 11813 base pen, 85% crit damage, 39.4% crit chance. On the Editor I have 31248 max mag, 6360 spell damage, 11813 base pen, 85% crit damage, 39.4% crit chance. Literally identical stats lol.

Concealed tooltip on live:



Dizzy tooltip on live:


The tooltip on Editor is lower though, so that's probably the bug you're talking about. Regardless, we're comparing tooltips between Dizzy and Concealed, and you can see that Concealed has a bigger tooltip than Dizzy, doesn't come with a cast time, and applies a better minor buff.

Are you using Trial Dummy to make the numbers appear higher?
And Essence Thief and Sea-Serpent's Coil, That's your cheap trick.
This is the real tooltip.

"Concealed Weapon" real tooltip on live:

i11ionward

I still don't understand why shadow disguise doesn't have a ramping cost. This is the most annoying skill, which is currently terribly overloaded.

Turtle_Bot

master_vanargand wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:

Here is the tooltip for Dizzying Swing on that NB build:



Here is the tooltip for Concealed Weapon on that same build:



Guess what? Concealed tooltip isn't buffed by that 10% extra damage after leaving stealth yet. So add 10% of that 15.4k to the 15.4k tooltip, and we get 16.9k final Concealed value.

16.6k Dizzy vs 16.9k Concealed. Dizzy was the hardest hitting single target damage ability in the game until this patch. Concealed hits harder, doesn't come with a 0.8s cast time, and gives a more useful buff (Minor Expedition as oppose to a snare). Then you look at Spectral Bow's tooltip:



28.6k damage, which under Battle Spirit is 14.3k. Every 5s you can use this proc if you light attack weave, and did I mention it also gives you 300 WD/SD at full stacks, that also buffs Concealed tooltip? Let's also not forget the incredibly cheap 75 ult that makes all your attacks deal 20% more damage to a target. NB legitimately does not need more than 2 skills to kill people lol.

The only reliable counter for NB this patch is blocking. If you can permablock, you can negate most of its damage. It won't be easy though, because a good NB will have the tools to counter that. You could also put out so much pressure that the NB can't go offensive, but the NB can still crutch on Cloak and Shade. They'd just have to drop Phantasmal Escape to make room for Shade and they can kite indefinitely. After all, that Siphoning Attack buff has literally allowed them to run with ZERO regen and still almost never run out of sustain lol.

The formulas on that website are notorious for having bugs.
Unless you show us the actual game screen, we can't tell if your information is correct.

It's only bugged for some tooltips. The stats should be fairly accurate for the most part.

But since you asked, here's the NB build on live:



Max SD and mag:



Max weapon critical, crit damage (no Minor Brittle) and base pen:




Here's the NB build copied to the exact detail on Editor:







So on the live server I have 31249 max mag, 6357 spell damage, 11813 base pen, 85% crit damage, 39.4% crit chance. On the Editor I have 31248 max mag, 6360 spell damage, 11813 base pen, 85% crit damage, 39.4% crit chance. Literally identical stats lol.

Concealed tooltip on live:



Dizzy tooltip on live:


The tooltip on Editor is lower though, so that's probably the bug you're talking about. Regardless, we're comparing tooltips between Dizzy and Concealed, and you can see that Concealed has a bigger tooltip than Dizzy, doesn't come with a cast time, and applies a better minor buff.

Are you using Trial Dummy to make the numbers appear higher?
And Essence Thief and Sea-Serpent's Coil, That's your cheap trick.
This is the real tooltip.

"Concealed Weapon" real tooltip on live:

And what's your Dizzy tooltip with the same build and buffs?

Come on now, at least provide BOTH tooltips (in other words, ALL the data) if you're going to try and prove someone wrong.

FYI, he didn't need to any "cheap trick" to show that concealed is stronger than Dizzy:
Here are my real tooltips on live, ZERO buffs, ZERO target dummy, OUT of combat, same simple build, same weapon equipped (2h), same skills slotted, same bar, no "tricks" at all.
Dizzy:

Concealed:


Adding the 10% that concealed gives:


Concealed is 5% stronger than Dizzy Swing!


Concealed is stronger than dizzy without having a cast time, without forcing 2h in the weapon slot (allowing for dual wield which has higher raw damage than 2h) inflicts off balance (same as dizzy) and also grants minor expedition at all times when slotted on either bar.

Concealed weapon is OBJECTIVELY stronger than Dizzy, not even taking into account the strength and reliability of not having a cast time and nobody needs any "tricks" to prove that.

master_vanargand

i11ionward wrote: »

I still don't understand why shadow disguise doesn't have a ramping cost. This is the most annoying skill, which is currently terribly overloaded.

Before we discuss that, please fix the bug where "Elemental Susceptibility" and "Structured Entropy" destroy invisible and stealth.
Many people in PvP are exploiting this bug to destroy invisible and stealth.

[BUG]"Elemental Susceptibility" and "Structured Entropy" destroy invisible

master_vanargand wrote: »

In an update a few years ago, invisible and stealth were no longer broken by single or AoE DoTs.
Only AoE direct damage, Detection potion, and Detection skill can destroy invisible and stealth.
But "Elemental Susceptibility" and "Structured Entropy" destroy invisible and stealth.
This is a bug, I tested how this happens.

Regarding "Elemental Susceptibility", there is a bug that causes some status effects to destroy invisible.
I tested it, and it seems that the "Burning" status effect is destroying invisible.
It's highly likely that other status effects that give DoTs also have a bug that destroys invisibility, just like "Burning".
Game creators should check all status effects just to be sure.

The mechanism by which "Structured Entropy" destroys invisible and stealth probably has to do with the visual effect of the line connecting the player and the target.
In other words, to display the line's visual effect, you need to know the position of the invisible player.

1. "Structured Entropy" DoT damage and cast player to heal.
2. The server tells cast player the position of the target invisible player as information to draw the line's visual effect.
3. The position of the invisible player is now known, so the invisible effect will be destroyed.

I think the above process is probably the cause of the bug of "Structured Entropy".

Below is a video of me testing the bug.

[ESO]"Elemental Susceptibility" and "Structured Entropy" destroy invisible[BUG]
https://youtu.be/GOTjX6kePkQ

[Test]

1. Testing "Structured Entropy", destroy invisible.
2. Testing "Normal DoT skill", Invisible will be maintained.
3. Testing "Elemental Susceptibility", destroy invisible.
4. Testing "Overcharged of Status effect ", Invisible will be maintained.

Dracane

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

I had to get to page 8

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

As assassin they're quite mediocre in single damage DPS but have about no AOE damage skill the problem in group content is they're utterly redundent as they offer no group utility at all (in trial damage reduction debuff don't do crap against mechanics and DOT's based on your health) and when it does its barely noticeable

Other classes can deal similar damage as cleave that a NB can only pull on a single target

Burst damage in PVE is usually worthless, you need sustained damage

Also this graph posted on the NB class discussion official thread



Also mfw tank NB isn't even on the graph

I don’t understand what this list is. AFAIK, it’s been a looong time since stam necro DPS was considered good, much less top tier. How is DK healer anything but bottom tier? I like my sorc tank, but since when is it top tier? It must be ranking players who fill certain roles and those who fill niche / specialized roles are some of the best players? Is stam necro and not mag necro generally used for EC? 🤔

dunno but vDSR HM still make necro look decent DPS wise even with a large gap between lowest and top perfromers, that is data dating back 12 weeks max

I would generally like to know how these rankings/statistics come to be. When I watch dedicated tank or healer channels on YouTube, or see tier lists, Sorcerer tanks and healers are always mentioned as niche and having no real group benefit vs. DK, Arcanist tanks or NB, Templar healers.

I play Sorc tank and healer because I enjoy it, but I definitely see that I offer nothing of value to the group other than my personal skill, when I compare my kit to DK or Arcanist, or anything really. There is no group buffs to speak of?

I would appreciate insight, if only so that I have more leverage over my trial leaders, outlining to them all the things I can offer.

MudcrabAttack

Dracane wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

I had to get to page 8

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

As assassin they're quite mediocre in single damage DPS but have about no AOE damage skill the problem in group content is they're utterly redundent as they offer no group utility at all (in trial damage reduction debuff don't do crap against mechanics and DOT's based on your health) and when it does its barely noticeable

Other classes can deal similar damage as cleave that a NB can only pull on a single target

Burst damage in PVE is usually worthless, you need sustained damage

Also this graph posted on the NB class discussion official thread



Also mfw tank NB isn't even on the graph

I don’t understand what this list is. AFAIK, it’s been a looong time since stam necro DPS was considered good, much less top tier. How is DK healer anything but bottom tier? I like my sorc tank, but since when is it top tier? It must be ranking players who fill certain roles and those who fill niche / specialized roles are some of the best players? Is stam necro and not mag necro generally used for EC? 🤔

dunno but vDSR HM still make necro look decent DPS wise even with a large gap between lowest and top perfromers, that is data dating back 12 weeks max

I would generally like to know how these rankings/statistics come to be. When I watch dedicated tank or healer channels on YouTube, or see tier lists, Sorcerer tanks and healers are always mentioned as niche and having no real group benefit vs. DK, Arcanist tanks or NB, Templar healers.

I play Sorc tank and healer because I enjoy it, but I definitely see that I offer nothing of value to the group other than my personal skill, when I compare my kit to DK or Arcanist, or anything really. There is no group buffs to speak of?

I would appreciate insight, if only so that I have more leverage over my trial leaders, outlining to them all the things I can offer.

The fastest visible clear of tideborn taleria on ESO Logs appears to have a sorcerer tank.

Take a look if you want to see what they’re doing

https://www.esologs.com/reports/mxaZNbCchnj7rg8d#fight=15&type=summary&source=12

I saw one nightblade tank on the list, they’re 57th from the top of speed clears

Not a single dps Nightblade on the list, they’re basically bottom tier

Dracane

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

I had to get to page 8

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

As assassin they're quite mediocre in single damage DPS but have about no AOE damage skill the problem in group content is they're utterly redundent as they offer no group utility at all (in trial damage reduction debuff don't do crap against mechanics and DOT's based on your health) and when it does its barely noticeable

Other classes can deal similar damage as cleave that a NB can only pull on a single target

Burst damage in PVE is usually worthless, you need sustained damage

Also this graph posted on the NB class discussion official thread



Also mfw tank NB isn't even on the graph

I don’t understand what this list is. AFAIK, it’s been a looong time since stam necro DPS was considered good, much less top tier. How is DK healer anything but bottom tier? I like my sorc tank, but since when is it top tier? It must be ranking players who fill certain roles and those who fill niche / specialized roles are some of the best players? Is stam necro and not mag necro generally used for EC? 🤔

dunno but vDSR HM still make necro look decent DPS wise even with a large gap between lowest and top perfromers, that is data dating back 12 weeks max

I would generally like to know how these rankings/statistics come to be. When I watch dedicated tank or healer channels on YouTube, or see tier lists, Sorcerer tanks and healers are always mentioned as niche and having no real group benefit vs. DK, Arcanist tanks or NB, Templar healers.

I play Sorc tank and healer because I enjoy it, but I definitely see that I offer nothing of value to the group other than my personal skill, when I compare my kit to DK or Arcanist, or anything really. There is no group buffs to speak of?

I would appreciate insight, if only so that I have more leverage over my trial leaders, outlining to them all the things I can offer.

The fastest visible clear of tideborn taleria on ESO Logs appears to have a sorcerer tank.

Take a look if you want to see what they’re doing

https://www.esologs.com/reports/mxaZNbCchnj7rg8d#fight=15&type=summary&source=12
I saw one nightblade on the list, they’re 57th from the top of speed clears

I will, thanks. I struggle somewhat to interpret this page, so I would still like some anecdotal knowledge for what makes Sorc Tank favorable.

Araneae6537

Dracane wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

I had to get to page 8

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

As assassin they're quite mediocre in single damage DPS but have about no AOE damage skill the problem in group content is they're utterly redundent as they offer no group utility at all (in trial damage reduction debuff don't do crap against mechanics and DOT's based on your health) and when it does its barely noticeable

Other classes can deal similar damage as cleave that a NB can only pull on a single target

Burst damage in PVE is usually worthless, you need sustained damage

Also this graph posted on the NB class discussion official thread



Also mfw tank NB isn't even on the graph

I don’t understand what this list is. AFAIK, it’s been a looong time since stam necro DPS was considered good, much less top tier. How is DK healer anything but bottom tier? I like my sorc tank, but since when is it top tier? It must be ranking players who fill certain roles and those who fill niche / specialized roles are some of the best players? Is stam necro and not mag necro generally used for EC? 🤔

dunno but vDSR HM still make necro look decent DPS wise even with a large gap between lowest and top perfromers, that is data dating back 12 weeks max

I would generally like to know how these rankings/statistics come to be. When I watch dedicated tank or healer channels on YouTube, or see tier lists, Sorcerer tanks and healers are always mentioned as niche and having no real group benefit vs. DK, Arcanist tanks or NB, Templar healers.

I play Sorc tank and healer because I enjoy it, but I definitely see that I offer nothing of value to the group other than my personal skill, when I compare my kit to DK or Arcanist, or anything really. There is no group buffs to speak of?

I would appreciate insight, if only so that I have more leverage over my trial leaders, outlining to them all the things I can offer.

The fastest visible clear of tideborn taleria on ESO Logs appears to have a sorcerer tank.

Take a look if you want to see what they’re doing

https://www.esologs.com/reports/mxaZNbCchnj7rg8d#fight=15&type=summary&source=12
I saw one nightblade on the list, they’re 57th from the top of speed clears

I will, thanks. I struggle somewhat to interpret this page, so I would still like some anecdotal knowledge for what makes Sorc Tank favorable.

Interesting, they’re wearing EC, so the group did not need an EC necro. They also have vulnerability covered with TT and Archdruid. The other tank was a DK and the healers an arcanist and warden, so I think that covers most of the buffs for the group.

Dracane

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

I had to get to page 8

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

As assassin they're quite mediocre in single damage DPS but have about no AOE damage skill the problem in group content is they're utterly redundent as they offer no group utility at all (in trial damage reduction debuff don't do crap against mechanics and DOT's based on your health) and when it does its barely noticeable

Other classes can deal similar damage as cleave that a NB can only pull on a single target

Burst damage in PVE is usually worthless, you need sustained damage

Also this graph posted on the NB class discussion official thread



Also mfw tank NB isn't even on the graph

I don’t understand what this list is. AFAIK, it’s been a looong time since stam necro DPS was considered good, much less top tier. How is DK healer anything but bottom tier? I like my sorc tank, but since when is it top tier? It must be ranking players who fill certain roles and those who fill niche / specialized roles are some of the best players? Is stam necro and not mag necro generally used for EC? 🤔

dunno but vDSR HM still make necro look decent DPS wise even with a large gap between lowest and top perfromers, that is data dating back 12 weeks max

I would generally like to know how these rankings/statistics come to be. When I watch dedicated tank or healer channels on YouTube, or see tier lists, Sorcerer tanks and healers are always mentioned as niche and having no real group benefit vs. DK, Arcanist tanks or NB, Templar healers.

I play Sorc tank and healer because I enjoy it, but I definitely see that I offer nothing of value to the group other than my personal skill, when I compare my kit to DK or Arcanist, or anything really. There is no group buffs to speak of?

I would appreciate insight, if only so that I have more leverage over my trial leaders, outlining to them all the things I can offer.

The fastest visible clear of tideborn taleria on ESO Logs appears to have a sorcerer tank.

Take a look if you want to see what they’re doing

https://www.esologs.com/reports/mxaZNbCchnj7rg8d#fight=15&type=summary&source=12
I saw one nightblade on the list, they’re 57th from the top of speed clears

I will, thanks. I struggle somewhat to interpret this page, so I would still like some anecdotal knowledge for what makes Sorc Tank favorable.

Interesting, they’re wearing EC, so the group did not need an EC necro. They also have vulnerability covered with TT and Archdruid. The other tank was a DK and the healers an arcanist and warden, so I think that covers most of the buffs for the group.

I also run Elemental Catalyst on my Sorc tank. I like the stats it gives, and that it's light armor.

master_vanargand

StaticWave wrote: »

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:



Here is the tooltip for Dizzying Swing on that NB build:



Here is the tooltip for Concealed Weapon on that same build:



Guess what? Concealed tooltip isn't buffed by that 10% extra damage after leaving stealth yet. So add 10% of that 15.4k to the 15.4k tooltip, and we get 16.9k final Concealed value.

16.6k Dizzy vs 16.9k Concealed. Dizzy was the hardest hitting single target damage ability in the game until this patch. Concealed hits harder, doesn't come with a 0.8s cast time, and gives a more useful buff (Minor Expedition as oppose to a snare). Then you look at Spectral Bow's tooltip:



28.6k damage, which under Battle Spirit is 14.3k. Every 5s you can use this proc if you light attack weave, and did I mention it also gives you 300 WD/SD at full stacks, that also buffs Concealed tooltip? Let's also not forget the incredibly cheap 75 ult that makes all your attacks deal 20% more damage to a target. NB legitimately does not need more than 2 skills to kill people lol.

The only reliable counter for NB this patch is blocking. If you can permablock, you can negate most of its damage. It won't be easy though, because a good NB will have the tools to counter that. You could also put out so much pressure that the NB can't go offensive, but the NB can still crutch on Cloak and Shade. They'd just have to drop Phantasmal Escape to make room for Shade and they can kite indefinitely. After all, that Siphoning Attack buff has literally allowed them to run with ZERO regen and still almost never run out of sustain lol.

What he really wants to say isn't "Dizzy VS Concealed".
He criticizes "Concealed Weapon" as being too powerful and just wants nerfs.
He just wants to increase the tooltip value in sets (+20%) and incite criticism.
If just talking about "Dizzy VS Concealed", it's fine to be naked without any equipment, right?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And to illustrate my point why NB doesn't need more than 2 skills for most scenarios, here's a very strong dueling NB build fully buffed without Continuous Attack:

Here is the tooltip for Dizzying Swing on that NB build:



Here is the tooltip for Concealed Weapon on that same build:



Guess what? Concealed tooltip isn't buffed by that 10% extra damage after leaving stealth yet. So add 10% of that 15.4k to the 15.4k tooltip, and we get 16.9k final Concealed value.

16.6k Dizzy vs 16.9k Concealed. Dizzy was the hardest hitting single target damage ability in the game until this patch. Concealed hits harder, doesn't come with a 0.8s cast time, and gives a more useful buff (Minor Expedition as oppose to a snare). Then you look at Spectral Bow's tooltip:



28.6k damage, which under Battle Spirit is 14.3k. Every 5s you can use this proc if you light attack weave, and did I mention it also gives you 300 WD/SD at full stacks, that also buffs Concealed tooltip? Let's also not forget the incredibly cheap 75 ult that makes all your attacks deal 20% more damage to a target. NB legitimately does not need more than 2 skills to kill people lol.

The only reliable counter for NB this patch is blocking. If you can permablock, you can negate most of its damage. It won't be easy though, because a good NB will have the tools to counter that. You could also put out so much pressure that the NB can't go offensive, but the NB can still crutch on Cloak and Shade. They'd just have to drop Phantasmal Escape to make room for Shade and they can kite indefinitely. After all, that Siphoning Attack buff has literally allowed them to run with ZERO regen and still almost never run out of sustain lol.

The formulas on that website are notorious for having bugs.
Unless you show us the actual game screen, we can't tell if your information is correct.

It's only bugged for some tooltips. The stats should be fairly accurate for the most part.

But since you asked, here's the NB build on live:



Max SD and mag:



Max weapon critical, crit damage (no Minor Brittle) and base pen:




Here's the NB build copied to the exact detail on Editor:







So on the live server I have 31249 max mag, 6357 spell damage, 11813 base pen, 85% crit damage, 39.4% crit chance. On the Editor I have 31248 max mag, 6360 spell damage, 11813 base pen, 85% crit damage, 39.4% crit chance. Literally identical stats lol.

Concealed tooltip on live:



Dizzy tooltip on live:


The tooltip on Editor is lower though, so that's probably the bug you're talking about. Regardless, we're comparing tooltips between Dizzy and Concealed, and you can see that Concealed has a bigger tooltip than Dizzy, doesn't come with a cast time, and applies a better minor buff.

Are you using Trial Dummy to make the numbers appear higher?
And Essence Thief and Sea-Serpent's Coil, That's your cheap trick.
This is the real tooltip.

"Concealed Weapon" real tooltip on live:

And what's your Dizzy tooltip with the same build and buffs?

Come on now, at least provide BOTH tooltips (in other words, ALL the data) if you're going to try and prove someone wrong.

FYI, he didn't need to any "cheap trick" to show that concealed is stronger than Dizzy:
Here are my real tooltips on live, ZERO buffs, ZERO target dummy, OUT of combat, same simple build, same weapon equipped (2h), same skills slotted, same bar, no "tricks" at all.
Dizzy:

Concealed:


Adding the 10% that concealed gives:


Concealed is 5% stronger than Dizzy Swing!


Concealed is stronger than dizzy without having a cast time, without forcing 2h in the weapon slot (allowing for dual wield which has higher raw damage than 2h) inflicts off balance (same as dizzy) and also grants minor expedition at all times when slotted on either bar.

Concealed weapon is OBJECTIVELY stronger than Dizzy, not even taking into account the strength and reliability of not having a cast time and nobody needs any "tricks" to prove that.

Yes, "Concealed Weapon" is better than "Dizzying Swing".
Class skills are better than weapon skills. That's all.