Thanks for making balance changes for Werewolf, but...

Erickson9610

...I have to rewrite this entire thread, as I was initially caught up in the pre-PTS hype.

I'll list my concerns for the balance changes Werewolf received this PTS cycle (U42, Weeks 1-3) one-by-one.

• The damage type of Werewolf light/heavy attacks being changed from Physical to Bleed. This change primarily nerfs Sorcerer Werewolves — while thematically appropriate, it harms the DPS of the most popular Werewolf Class.
• The removal of Major Savagery and Prophecy from Deafening Roar. I suppose it makes sense to differentiate the damage dealer morph from the tank morph, but this change doesn't account for the fact that Werewolf can't slot non-Werewolf skills to source Major Savagery and Prophecy like human form builds can. In other words, humans can build around these limitations in ways Werewolves cannot. This primarily affects PvP werewolf builds, and critical healing in PvE for werewolf tanks.
• The Terrified effect being added to Ferocious Roar but not Deafening Roar. This effect in general is annoying because the patch notes claimed it would be a tracking effect, when it's nothing of the sort. It's also able to be purged by enemies, so it's tough to use in PvP.
• Howl of Agony now only dealing 20% bonus damage when the enemy is both Off Balance and Terrified. Terrified can be refreshed early, but Off Balance has a duration of 7 seconds and a cooldown of 15 seconds — so out of 22 seconds before the debuff can be refreshed, you get 7 seconds of uptime, or 31.82% uptime. If you refresh Terrified once every 10 seconds, then you get up to 20% bonus damage with a combined uptime of 31.82% uptime, whereas on Live, you could get 100% uptime of 25% bonus damage on the trial dummy, or in some places like Sunspire. Again, the requirement to cast Ferocious Roar every 10 seconds and the nerf to Howl of Agony resulted in a 7k DPS loss on the trial dummy — I now deal about 100k DPS. And since enemies in PvP can purge Terrified, they can expect only a 31.82% uptime of only 10% increased damage if they remember to purge every time the enemy Werewolf roars at them.

I've gotten a lot of flak for how I've written the original post, and from members of the ESO Werewolf community in other places regarding my constant pleading to ZOS to address this playstyle. I want to express that I genuinely only want the best for the Werewolf playstyle, and I hoped that by encouraging ZOS to address some of its issues, it'll become viable again. I was too excited to realize how badly the changes impacted us. For instance:

Erickson9610 wrote: »

On Live, I was able to hit 107k DPS with Werewolf:


After the changes to Werewolf on the PTS, I'm only just barely able to hit 100k with the same setup:


Howl of Agony did 29k DPS (27.4% overall) on Live, but it now only does 25k DPS (25.8% overall) on Week 1 of the U42 PTS.


The rotation on Live prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x5) --> repeat.

The rotation on the PTS prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x3) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> repeat.


The changes to Piercing Howl and Roar require Werewolf damage dealers to burn GCDs debuffing with Ferocious Roar, which lowers DPS compared to Live, not to mention that the total bonus damage of Howl of Agony was lowered from 25% to 20% with perfect conditions. The drop in damage is significant.

As someone who plays Werewolf in PvE as well as in PvP, can something be done to give Werewolf back some of the damage it lacks? This update is going to punish PvE Werewolf damage dealers, and it'll undoubtedly make Werewolf's burst in PvP much less effective.

P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes are only going to be viewed with disdain if the patch notes come with such heavy-handed nerfs. Werewolf players aren't a joke — these people genuinely care about trying to be effective with their playstyle.

sneakymitchell

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I've stated this multiple times in multiple different threads, but I appreciate the changes to Werewolf that were made this PTS week. I think the dichotomy between damage dealer werewolves and tank werewolves is a good design decision. I also think that the efforts to make all 5 Werewolf skills useful in a parse is a step in the right direction.

In particular, I'm really happy about the Terrified effect giving werewolves the ability to track their foes, and the light and heavy attacks changing to Bleed damage while having a chance to proc Hemorrhaging. Those are both thematically awesome changes, and fantastic for the roleplay fantasy of rending the flesh of your foes. I like that a damage dealer werewolf can still play as a lone wolf without particularly needing a group member, while a tank werewolf (who operates as the leader of the pack) would naturally want fellow werewolves with them, particularly to supply the Terrified effect to enemies. Of course, werewolves are stronger together.


It's clear that these changes were made with close consideration for the roleplay fantasy of being a werewolf. Many of the previous issues with the playstyle — such as the positional requirement for Piercing Howl and the lack of an in-kit taunt — were rectified this patch. The PTS patch notes even suggest that ZOS is aware of some of the other issues with the playstyle that they didn't get around to fixing this time around. I would say that things are looking up for Werewolf players!

P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes were awesome. Always happy to see them!

Does the terrified effect cloak? Where you know where they are. It be good for pvp if so.

Tommy_The_Gun

I also appreciate the changes, but there are some things that should be adressed.

- I love the idea of werewolf being able to "mark target". It is a good idea. But the issue is that it seems to be done via de-buff (Terrified). The issue is that only one morph of Roar seems to have it & other WW skill - Piercing Howl is dependent on it. So if you pick morph of Roar that does not have Terrified, you are making your other skill much weaker. This is just badly designed and should be adressed. Terrified de-buff should be present on both morphs. This is imho an excellent opportunity to add "detection" to WW toolkit. One morph of Roar can have it in addition to regular Terrified de-buff. It can work kinda like NB's Piercing Mark, but instead of being long range single target it will work in an AOE around you. So if there are invisible targets, if you Roar near them you will be able to see them for x seconds (but only you will see them, just like with Piercing Mark).
- Werewolves still do not have weapon passives. Why ? It is very weird, unintuitive and outdated design. It would give WWs a lot more diversity while not affecting WW's skill power budget.

Erickson9610

I've completely rewritten the original post with more up to date thoughts and opinions of the Werewolf balance changes this update. Thank you all for bringing the severity of the situation to my attention.

IncultaWolf

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I've stated this multiple times in multiple different threads, but I appreciate the changes to Werewolf that were made this PTS week. I think the dichotomy between damage dealer werewolves and tank werewolves is a good design decision. I also think that the efforts to make all 5 Werewolf skills useful in a parse is a step in the right direction.

In particular, I'm really happy about the Terrified effect giving werewolves the ability to track their foes, and the light and heavy attacks changing to Bleed damage while having a chance to proc Hemorrhaging. Those are both thematically awesome changes, and fantastic for the roleplay fantasy of rending the flesh of your foes. I like that a damage dealer werewolf can still play as a lone wolf without particularly needing a group member, while a tank werewolf (who operates as the leader of the pack) would naturally want fellow werewolves with them, particularly to supply the Terrified effect to enemies. Of course, werewolves are stronger together.


It's clear that these changes were made with close consideration for the roleplay fantasy of being a werewolf. Many of the previous issues with the playstyle — such as the positional requirement for Piercing Howl and the lack of an in-kit taunt — were rectified this patch. The PTS patch notes even suggest that ZOS is aware of some of the other issues with the playstyle that they didn't get around to fixing this time around. I would say that things are looking up for Werewolf players!

P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes were awesome. Always happy to see them!

Does the terrified effect cloak? Where you know where they are. It be good for pvp if so.

No, it literally does nothing. There's not even a visual effect/indicator for the debuff. It's very underwhelming and can be purged. There's no "tracking" feature like they worded it in the patch notes. You can only even see if it's active by using a debuff tracker, which not everyone uses.

ModernSilver1

Something I pointed out in the other Werewolf thread, is that Ferocious Roar still apparently has an issue where the first heavy attack is not sped up. Every conscutive heavy attack is, but you if you stop heavy attacking, you have to do a slow heavy attack again. With this issue present we lose quite a bit of sustain & damage in PvE and is a dead cast most of the time as by the time we finish the first one, we need to refresh Brutal Pounce.

It'd be very much appreciated if that issue can receive some more visual. Don't see it talked about too often.

Skoomah

Erickson9610 wrote: »

...I have to rewrite this entire thread, as I was initially caught up in the pre-PTS hype.

I'll list my concerns for the balance changes Werewolf received this PTS cycle (U42, Weeks 1-3) one-by-one.

• The damage type of Werewolf light/heavy attacks being changed from Physical to Bleed. This change primarily nerfs Sorcerer Werewolves — while thematically appropriate, it harms the DPS of the most popular Werewolf Class.
• The removal of Major Savagery and Prophecy from Deafening Roar. I suppose it makes sense to differentiate the damage dealer morph from the tank morph, but this change doesn't account for the fact that Werewolf can't slot non-Werewolf skills to source Major Savagery and Prophecy like human form builds can. In other words, humans can build around these limitations in ways Werewolves cannot. This primarily affects PvP werewolf builds, and critical healing in PvE for werewolf tanks.
• The Terrified effect being added to Ferocious Roar but not Deafening Roar. This effect in general is annoying because the patch notes claimed it would be a tracking effect, when it's nothing of the sort. It's also able to be purged by enemies, so it's tough to use in PvP.
• Howl of Agony now only dealing 20% bonus damage when the enemy is both Off Balance and Terrified. Terrified can be refreshed early, but Off Balance has a duration of 7 seconds and a cooldown of 15 seconds — so out of 22 seconds before the debuff can be refreshed, you get 7 seconds of uptime, or 31.82% uptime. If you refresh Terrified once every 10 seconds, then you get up to 20% bonus damage with a combined uptime of 31.82% uptime, whereas on Live, you could get 100% uptime of 25% bonus damage on the trial dummy, or in some places like Sunspire. Again, the requirement to cast Ferocious Roar every 10 seconds and the nerf to Howl of Agony resulted in a 7k DPS loss on the trial dummy — I now deal about 100k DPS. And since enemies in PvP can purge Terrified, they can expect only a 31.82% uptime of only 10% increased damage if they remember to purge every time the enemy Werewolf roars at them.

I've gotten a lot of flak for how I've written the original post, and from members of the ESO Werewolf community in other places regarding my constant pleading to ZOS to address this playstyle. I want to express that I genuinely only want the best for the Werewolf playstyle, and I hoped that by encouraging ZOS to address some of its issues, it'll become viable again. I was too excited to realize how badly the changes impacted us. For instance:

Erickson9610 wrote: »

On Live, I was able to hit 107k DPS with Werewolf:


After the changes to Werewolf on the PTS, I'm only just barely able to hit 100k with the same setup:


Howl of Agony did 29k DPS (27.4% overall) on Live, but it now only does 25k DPS (25.8% overall) on Week 1 of the U42 PTS.


The rotation on Live prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x5) --> repeat.

The rotation on the PTS prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x3) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> repeat.


The changes to Piercing Howl and Roar require Werewolf damage dealers to burn GCDs debuffing with Ferocious Roar, which lowers DPS compared to Live, not to mention that the total bonus damage of Howl of Agony was lowered from 25% to 20% with perfect conditions. The drop in damage is significant.

As someone who plays Werewolf in PvE as well as in PvP, can something be done to give Werewolf back some of the damage it lacks? This update is going to punish PvE Werewolf damage dealers, and it'll undoubtedly make Werewolf's burst in PvP much less effective.

P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes are only going to be viewed with disdain if the patch notes come with such heavy-handed nerfs. Werewolf players aren't a joke — these people genuinely care about trying to be effective with their playstyle.

Werewolf is ruined if these changes go through. If you don’t have other characters you enjoy playing, then good luck enjoying a gimped class. And yes, werewolf is a joke.

I am one of the most hardcore werewolves on PC NA and I will retire my werewolf after this patch. It’s not worth playing anymore. It just simply won’t be fun being so far behind other classes in terms offense, defense, utility, solo play, group play, trials play, pve, pvp, any scenario.

Here, let me break it down further.

PVE
- Tank - can’t permablock so ww tanking is stupid, you’ll just miss one block and you’re dead. The level of concentration required is impossible
- Healer - can’t be a healer
- Damage - Erickson can barely hit 100k, other classes are reaching 130-150k, why take a class that’s 30% weaker?

PVP
- Solo - Nightblades, Sorcerors, Dragonknights, and other classes do it way better
- Small Group - Werewolves don’t bring anything extra or unique to the table, other classes are way more useful with two bars and access to more sets for more utility
- Large Group - never bring a werewolf, optimal ball groups need access to more skills, sets, situational utility
- RP - werewolves don’t hit harder or instill fear on the battlefield at all, what’s the point? You can’t even customize the look of your character beyond just white or black fur.

There is nothing werewolf does better or uniquely. Can’t be a healer, less tanky even with the major protection, deals less damage, and other classes are straight up better choices for teammates and more useful in every situation.

Erickson9610

Skoomah wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

...I have to rewrite this entire thread, as I was initially caught up in the pre-PTS hype.

I'll list my concerns for the balance changes Werewolf received this PTS cycle (U42, Weeks 1-3) one-by-one.

• The damage type of Werewolf light/heavy attacks being changed from Physical to Bleed. This change primarily nerfs Sorcerer Werewolves — while thematically appropriate, it harms the DPS of the most popular Werewolf Class.
• The removal of Major Savagery and Prophecy from Deafening Roar. I suppose it makes sense to differentiate the damage dealer morph from the tank morph, but this change doesn't account for the fact that Werewolf can't slot non-Werewolf skills to source Major Savagery and Prophecy like human form builds can. In other words, humans can build around these limitations in ways Werewolves cannot. This primarily affects PvP werewolf builds, and critical healing in PvE for werewolf tanks.
• The Terrified effect being added to Ferocious Roar but not Deafening Roar. This effect in general is annoying because the patch notes claimed it would be a tracking effect, when it's nothing of the sort. It's also able to be purged by enemies, so it's tough to use in PvP.
• Howl of Agony now only dealing 20% bonus damage when the enemy is both Off Balance and Terrified. Terrified can be refreshed early, but Off Balance has a duration of 7 seconds and a cooldown of 15 seconds — so out of 22 seconds before the debuff can be refreshed, you get 7 seconds of uptime, or 31.82% uptime. If you refresh Terrified once every 10 seconds, then you get up to 20% bonus damage with a combined uptime of 31.82% uptime, whereas on Live, you could get 100% uptime of 25% bonus damage on the trial dummy, or in some places like Sunspire. Again, the requirement to cast Ferocious Roar every 10 seconds and the nerf to Howl of Agony resulted in a 7k DPS loss on the trial dummy — I now deal about 100k DPS. And since enemies in PvP can purge Terrified, they can expect only a 31.82% uptime of only 10% increased damage if they remember to purge every time the enemy Werewolf roars at them.

I've gotten a lot of flak for how I've written the original post, and from members of the ESO Werewolf community in other places regarding my constant pleading to ZOS to address this playstyle. I want to express that I genuinely only want the best for the Werewolf playstyle, and I hoped that by encouraging ZOS to address some of its issues, it'll become viable again. I was too excited to realize how badly the changes impacted us. For instance:

Erickson9610 wrote: »

On Live, I was able to hit 107k DPS with Werewolf:


After the changes to Werewolf on the PTS, I'm only just barely able to hit 100k with the same setup:


Howl of Agony did 29k DPS (27.4% overall) on Live, but it now only does 25k DPS (25.8% overall) on Week 1 of the U42 PTS.


The rotation on Live prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x5) --> repeat.

The rotation on the PTS prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x3) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> repeat.


The changes to Piercing Howl and Roar require Werewolf damage dealers to burn GCDs debuffing with Ferocious Roar, which lowers DPS compared to Live, not to mention that the total bonus damage of Howl of Agony was lowered from 25% to 20% with perfect conditions. The drop in damage is significant.

As someone who plays Werewolf in PvE as well as in PvP, can something be done to give Werewolf back some of the damage it lacks? This update is going to punish PvE Werewolf damage dealers, and it'll undoubtedly make Werewolf's burst in PvP much less effective.

P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes are only going to be viewed with disdain if the patch notes come with such heavy-handed nerfs. Werewolf players aren't a joke — these people genuinely care about trying to be effective with their playstyle.

Werewolf is ruined if these changes go through. If you don’t have other characters you enjoy playing, then good luck enjoying a gimped class. And yes, werewolf is a joke.

I am one of the most hardcore werewolves on PC NA and I will retire my werewolf after this patch. It’s not worth playing anymore. It just simply won’t be fun being so far behind other classes in terms offense, defense, utility, solo play, group play, trials play, pve, pvp, any scenario.

Here, let me break it down further.

PVE
- Tank - can’t permablock so ww tanking is stupid, you’ll just miss one block and you’re dead. The level of concentration required is impossible
- Healer - can’t be a healer
- Damage - Erickson can barely hit 100k, other classes are reaching 130-150k, why take a class that’s 30% weaker?

PVP
- Solo - Nightblades, Sorcerors, Dragonknights, and other classes do it way better
- Small Group - Werewolves don’t bring anything extra or unique to the table, other classes are way more useful with two bars and access to more sets for more utility
- Large Group - never bring a werewolf, optimal ball groups need access to more skills, sets, situational utility
- RP - werewolves don’t hit harder or instill fear on the battlefield at all, what’s the point? You can’t even customize the look of your character beyond just white or black fur.

There is nothing werewolf does better or uniquely. Can’t be a healer, less tanky even with the major protection, deals less damage, and other classes are straight up better choices for teammates and more useful in every situation.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno This post is very well-written and explains many of the pain points of using Werewolf anywhere in the game currently.

I've personally expressed many of these points before, stressing that things like Grimoires and Skill Styles would massively improve Werewolf for various areas of the game — Werewolf Transformation Skill Styles for giving us basic cosmetic customization for the RP factor, and Werewolf Grimoires for enabling playstyles such as healer or for giving Werewolf more group utility.

Please help this playstyle. Werewolf itself to some may just be a joke, but the players who have stuck with Werewolf are able to do so much with so little.