ZOS what is YOUR problem with WEREWOLF?! (balance change review)

Tommy_The_Gun

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Roar skill: To make adding werewolves still viable, how about we make the Ferocious roar morph actually 'mark' nightblades for a very short time like a detect pot OR share that heavy attack speed buff w/ other werewolves nearby?

I think the major protection is a great trade-off for the crit buff and should remain. You can source the crit from somewhere else (pots/Oakensoul) as an efficiency exchange).

I also think that WW should have "detection" but imho it should not work like a "detect potion" but rather like NB's Piercing Mark. That skills makes you able to see someone invisible with Mark for X seconds, but only you can see them (the skill caster). It would make sense for a Werewolf to see someone "they sniffed" but it should not reveal them for everyone. And it should be aplied via AOE around you (Roar range).

As for the Deafening Roar, it should at the very least have get access to Terrified de-buff, or it should have some other effect.

The issue with this skill is that Deafening Roar has same power budget as Ferocious Roar, but if you pick this morph, your other skill - Piercing Howl & morphs - becomes weaker, meaning that Werewolf with Deafening Roar is mathematically weaker than Werewolf with Ferocious Roar.

I think that they should keep Major Savagery and Prophecy and instead of Major Protection, they should add Minor Protection.

^ I think that it would be actually safer & healthier, as right now you can stack stuff:
- Pack Leader (10%)
- Oakensoul (Minor Protection - 5%)
- Deafening Roar (Major Protection - 10%)
- Minor Maim (5%)

So technically, you can have 30% passive damage reduction and it might cause some issues. I am surprised that no one noticed that. We already had a couple of updates in the past where some one figured out almost unkillable PvP Werewolf build and as a result stuff got nerfed to Oblivion.

Wuuffyy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Roar skill: To make adding werewolves still viable, how about we make the Ferocious roar morph actually 'mark' nightblades for a very short time like a detect pot OR share that heavy attack speed buff w/ other werewolves nearby?

I think the major protection is a great trade-off for the crit buff and should remain. You can source the crit from somewhere else (pots/Oakensoul) as an efficiency exchange).

I also think that WW should have "detection" but imho it should not work like a "detect potion" but rather like NB's Piercing Mark. That skills makes you able to see someone invisible with Mark for X seconds, but only you can see them (the skill caster). It would make sense for a Werewolf to see someone "they sniffed" but it should not reveal them for everyone. And it should be aplied via AOE around you (Roar range).

As for the Deafening Roar, it should at the very least have get access to Terrified de-buff, or it should have some other effect.

The issue with this skill is that Deafening Roar has same power budget as Ferocious Roar, but if you pick this morph, your other skill - Piercing Howl & morphs - becomes weaker, meaning that Werewolf with Deafening Roar is mathematically weaker than Werewolf with Ferocious Roar.

I think that they should keep Major Savagery and Prophecy and instead of Major Protection, they should add Minor Protection.

^ I think that it would be actually safer & healthier, as right now you can stack stuff:
- Pack Leader (10%)
- Oakensoul (Minor Protection - 5%)
- Deafening Roar (Major Protection - 10%)
- Minor Maim (5%)

So technically, you can have 30% passive damage reduction and it might cause some issues. I am surprised that no one noticed that. We already had a couple of updates in the past where some one figured out almost unkillable PvP Werewolf build and as a result stuff got nerfed to Oblivion.

I understand the concept you mention except that werewolves actual damage will be nerfed into oblivion next patch and they already struggle to kill things, as is, w/ the current patch.

I fully believe that the major protection is absolutely appropriate. A lot of classes, by default, get free resistance w/o slotting anything out of the way such as necro's ghost/several arcanist skills/class-slot only passives, etc. Beyond this, nearly every class gets "free" mitigation from vigor and other skills(minor resolve=5% w/ undo slottable/skills for minor protection= 5%; overall 10% AND another 5% (minor maim) for dealing frost damage///using NB's shade///using the Ele Sus skill).

Add to this they can all slot the support skill, flare, for another 10% (major protection) on their backbar. I think that is absolutely, perfectly balanced. We just shouldn't add free minor protection/// minor resolve to the combo atp outside of sets.

Werewolf is suffering, Tommy. I just want to make sure we are in the understanding that it needs buffs. I appreciate the posts, but the pessimism on us receiving buffs as we fear "it may be nerfed" I find to be wholly unfounded.

I know werewolf was very overtuned several times in history (and that caused the nerf storm to rain down on our parade), the only issue is that things have been standardized and changed for these other classes/specs, and now, because the WW spec hasn't been 'kept up with', and scribing is here: we need these buffs to compete.

Jaraal

So they tried to make PvE werewolf tanking slightly less undesirable, while totally killing PvP werewolf by making their primary damage source cleansable bleeds. And still no weapon passives.

I can't even.

Erickson9610

I think Deafening Roar should have some more utility for PvP scenarios, in addition to making Heavy Attacks taunt while slotted. I'd like to see Deafening Roar be given Detect, which is a valuable effect to have in PvP — that way it's still useful in PvP as well as in PvE.

That, and the Terrified debuff should actually apply a tracking effect to enemies, like the effect Blood Scion has that allows them to see enemies through walls, like what the patch notes heavily implied would happen.

ModernSilver1

Something I want to throw out there: Ferocious Roar's heavy attack speed up doesn't apply to the first heavy attack on live. Has this been fixed on the PTS or should we add that to the list of grievances for the class? In PvE, you barely have time to get one out before you need to refresh Pounce & Carnage, kind of a waste of stamina with that issue prevalent.

Some things I'd personally adjust, bear in mind that this is from a PvE perspective.

Pounce: I'd make the Carnage part of the ability be half off for the sake of sustain. Very similar idea to Flying Blade. Granted, if the above issue can be fixed, then sustain may not be a big issue.

Hircine's Rage: change the buff to minor force and remove the damage taken penalty. Additionally, make that part of the ability activate above 80-90% health rather than full health. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have a penalty even on live as DKs get access to the same buff, but no damage penalty. Could also either extend the buff by ten seconds or cut the cost of the skill in half.

Howl of Despair: change the buff offered by the synergy from minor force to major berserk, to kind of give werewolves some group utility. Everyone and their brother has access to minor force so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for werewolves to provide it with a synergy.

Howl of Agony: only thing here is that I'd increase the base damage to be on par or slightly above the other morph. It kind of falls slightly behind without taking the 10% damage done to terrified & off-balanced into account. Side note: wouldn't it make more sense for the spammable to be a bite rather than a howl? Kind of odd that werewolves have no biting skills.

Deafening Roar: I don't tank (or at least I don't have a build for that), but even I can tell that heavy attacks don't really fit a tank playstyle. Argumenting light attacks to give a taunt might be more doable.

Wuuffyy

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think Deafening Roar should have some more utility for PvP scenarios, in addition to making Heavy Attacks taunt while slotted. I'd like to see Deafening Roar be given Detect, which is a valuable effect to have in PvP — that way it's still useful in PvP as well as in PvE.

That, and the Terrified debuff should actually apply a tracking effect to enemies, like the effect Blood Scion has that allows them to see enemies through walls, like what the patch notes heavily implied would happen.

Right. I just remembered as well, the terrified debuff would also be purifiable. So not only is our damage conditional, it's entirely dependent on our enemy.

Our 'howl' tooltips+buffs itself the way it does (for efficiency), because we lack a 'burst move' or even an ultimate (to burst like dawny, incap, leap, etc.). I cannot believe that we are giving up everything to require other wolves and then still falling short of the mark like this.

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think Deafening Roar should have some more utility for PvP scenarios, in addition to making Heavy Attacks taunt while slotted. I'd like to see Deafening Roar be given Detect, which is a valuable effect to have in PvP — that way it's still useful in PvP as well as in PvE.

That, and the Terrified debuff should actually apply a tracking effect to enemies, like the effect Blood Scion has that allows them to see enemies through walls, like what the patch notes heavily implied would happen.

Right. I just remembered as well, the terrified debuff would also be purifiable. So not only is our damage conditional, it's entirely dependent on our enemy.

Our 'howl' tooltips+buffs itself the way it does (for efficiency), because we lack a 'burst move' or even an ultimate (to burst like dawny, incap, leap, etc.). I cannot believe that we are giving up everything to require other wolves and then still falling short of the mark like this.

Terrified shouldn't be cleansable. It was bad enough when enemy players in PvP could just turn away from you to reduce the bonus damage of your Piercing Howl, but this makes it much easier for non-Werewolf enemies to mitigate that extra damage.

Werewolf has no cleanse. The human form has access to the Purge skill in the Support skill line, and can cleanse the Terrified effect. If you're dueling another Werewolf, you might be able to keep them Terrified, but otherwise that 10% extra damage from your Piercing Howl is viable to be completely removed by a competent player in PvP.

sneakymitchell

This point just allow werewolves to have weapon passives it will lower the discussions of werewolf power creep. One bar okansoul can hand weapon passives. Werewolf has very small amount of psssives used in combat.

Wuuffyy

sneakymitchell wrote: »

This point just allow werewolves to have weapon passives it will lower the discussions of werewolf power creep. One bar okansoul can hand weapon passives. Werewolf has very small amount of psssives used in combat.

Is anyone seriously discussing werewolf power creep right now? We have a werewolf power extraction issue, I'll agree with you on that one, if that's what you meant.

Beyond that, if we can't properly balance a 1-bar spec hardly anyone plays that is wildly underperforming, then werewolf is more than just the problem in terms of balancing.

It's mostly jokes above but could you please elaborate on what you meant? (jokes aside)

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

This point just allow werewolves to have weapon passives it will lower the discussions of werewolf power creep. One bar okansoul can hand weapon passives. Werewolf has very small amount of psssives used in combat.

Is anyone seriously discussing werewolf power creep right now? We have a werewolf power extraction issue, I'll agree with you on that one, if that's what you meant.

Beyond that, if we can't properly balance a 1-bar spec hardly anyone plays that is wildly underperforming, then werewolf is more than just the problem in terms of balancing.

It's mostly jokes above but could you please elaborate on what you meant? (jokes aside)

I find it hard to believe, but there are people who are appalled that Werewolf is receiving any "buffs" at all, even if overall Werewolf is getting nerfed this update. Some people genuinely believe Werewolf is unkillable and overperforming — but I've never seen a dedicated Werewolf player say that Werewolf is overpowered.

I hope Werewolf will be allowed to have weapon passives for build diversity, but it won't solve all of their problems.

shallot

Wuuffyy wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

This point just allow werewolves to have weapon passives it will lower the discussions of werewolf power creep. One bar okansoul can hand weapon passives. Werewolf has very small amount of psssives used in combat.

Is anyone seriously discussing werewolf power creep right now? We have a werewolf power extraction issue, I'll agree with you on that one, if that's what you meant.

Beyond that, if we can't properly balance a 1-bar spec hardly anyone plays that is wildly underperforming, then werewolf is more than just the problem in terms of balancing.

It's mostly jokes above but could you please elaborate on what you meant? (jokes aside)

I assume they mean its time for ESO to finally follow in the footsteps of WOW, DDO, and several other games with druids or other kinds of shapeshifters and have a patch that reworks the shapeshifter builds to use the same passives as non shapeshifters so 1. the actual wolf tree's passives don't have to have higher numbers to accommodate not stacking with the general passives which can make the uninformed think werewolves get special treatment with higher numbers on their skill tree and get upset and 2. werewolves use more of the same systems as other builds and so next time the game has any kind of major combat revision werewolves don't get stuck in limbo with their unique passives that make up all of their damage and defenses being based on outdated systems/numbers or lacking certain buffs that become considered standard for all builds but never get added to the wolf tree.

huskandhunger

I would like Terrified to be adjusted to help visually track stealthed opponents and feature on both Roar morphs.

SirLeeMinion

After years of feedback, these are their changes. Not the changes suggested in many pages of well-intentioned, well-reasoned posts, these changes.

I'm reminded of the song Vincent by Don McLean, "They would not listen, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will."

Wuuffyy

I forgot to mention earlier; I also added the 'suggestions' that are easy-to-implement (to me) before PTS end based entirely around the set of changes they made and working around those parameters/concepts that exist w/in the game already.

It was already present though far-and-detached from the main post/ first page standard viewing section.

Wuuffyy

Just came here to say for everyone browsing the thread: no major updates as of today for the PTS update, obviously as it's week 2. Fingers crossed for positive changes PTS update week 3.

Erickson9610

The bug with Deafening Roar was fixed, but nothing else for Werewolf was done.

I really hoped to see more balance changes for Werewolf. It doesn't feel good to have our main spammable nerfed and be given a reduced cost to compensate. Piercing Howl just doesn't feel as impactful to use anymore.

I'd personally swap Piercing Howl out for a Werewolf Grimoire in a heartbeat, but that's currently not an option.

Panderbander

Yeah nothing happened in week 3 which means more likely than not these changes are going live as is. We've been necromancered, which is truly impressive as we were already in a worse spot than necromancer.

Suppose I won't, in fact, be reinstalling the game after all. I got too caught up in the excitement of actually being addressed for once to realize they were addressing me to tell me they were taking my teeth away.

Tommy_The_Gun

Panderbander wrote: »

Yeah nothing happened in week 3 which means more likely than not these changes are going live as is.

Can't say I am surprised. The moment I saw the 1st PTS patch notes with all the dog jokes, I realized that Werewolves are a joke even for ZOS lol

Erickson9610

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Yeah nothing happened in week 3 which means more likely than not these changes are going live as is.

Can't say I am surprised. The moment I saw the 1st PTS patch notes with all the dog jokes, I realized that Werewolves are a joke even for ZOS lol

It's hard to take all those werewolf jokes in good humor when the playstyle has been nerfed in PvE and PvP. Why don't the 7 Classes get joked about the way Werewolf does?

erdYrrson

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Yeah nothing happened in week 3 which means more likely than not these changes are going live as is.

Can't say I am surprised. The moment I saw the 1st PTS patch notes with all the dog jokes, I realized that Werewolves are a joke even for ZOS lol

It's hard to take all those werewolf jokes in good humor when the playstyle has been nerfed in PvE and PvP. Why don't the 7 Classes get joked about the way Werewolf does?

Hm, somebody had a ball:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656528/the-werewolf-changes-in-v10-0-0-are-appreciated

Erickson9610 wrote: »

[...] P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes were awesome. Always happy to see them!

From your "The Werewolf changes in v10.0.0 are appreciated" post...

Erickson9610

erdYrrson wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Yeah nothing happened in week 3 which means more likely than not these changes are going live as is.

Can't say I am surprised. The moment I saw the 1st PTS patch notes with all the dog jokes, I realized that Werewolves are a joke even for ZOS lol

It's hard to take all those werewolf jokes in good humor when the playstyle has been nerfed in PvE and PvP. Why don't the 7 Classes get joked about the way Werewolf does?

Hm, somebody had a ball:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656528/the-werewolf-changes-in-v10-0-0-are-appreciated

Erickson9610 wrote: »

[...] P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes were awesome. Always happy to see them!

From your "The Werewolf changes in v10.0.0 are appreciated" post...

I didn't realize how much my favorite playstyle had been nerfed. I even thought Terrified actually had a tracking effect.

When the reality of the situation occurred to me, it wasn't funny anymore. It wasn't a buff after all.

Wuuffyy

erdYrrson wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Yeah nothing happened in week 3 which means more likely than not these changes are going live as is.

Can't say I am surprised. The moment I saw the 1st PTS patch notes with all the dog jokes, I realized that Werewolves are a joke even for ZOS lol

It's hard to take all those werewolf jokes in good humor when the playstyle has been nerfed in PvE and PvP. Why don't the 7 Classes get joked about the way Werewolf does?

Hm, somebody had a ball:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656528/the-werewolf-changes-in-v10-0-0-are-appreciated

Erickson9610 wrote: »

[...] P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes were awesome. Always happy to see them!

From your "The Werewolf changes in v10.0.0 are appreciated" post...

To be fair, this was before they had tested this via PTS, etc.

The changes were honestly worded w/ a lot of duality and nobody that plays werewolf could initially fathom that new, werewolf-specific changes were essentially, actually a set of hefty nerfs.

erdYrrson

Yeah, jumping the gun is usually not the best.

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

erdYrrson wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Yeah nothing happened in week 3 which means more likely than not these changes are going live as is.

Can't say I am surprised. The moment I saw the 1st PTS patch notes with all the dog jokes, I realized that Werewolves are a joke even for ZOS lol

It's hard to take all those werewolf jokes in good humor when the playstyle has been nerfed in PvE and PvP. Why don't the 7 Classes get joked about the way Werewolf does?

Hm, somebody had a ball:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656528/the-werewolf-changes-in-v10-0-0-are-appreciated

Erickson9610 wrote: »

[...] P.S., the werewolf jokes in the patch notes were awesome. Always happy to see them!

From your "The Werewolf changes in v10.0.0 are appreciated" post...

To be fair, this was before they had tested this via PTS, etc.

The changes were honestly worded w/ a lot of duality and nobody that plays werewolf could initially fathom that new, werewolf-specific changes were essentially, actually a set of hefty nerfs.

I'm just not sure ZOS sees our Werewolf feedback or wants to address it. I haven't seen them talk about it anywhere, and I don't know if anyone there plays Werewolf seriously like the ESO Werewolf community does. The werewolf jokes in this context just make it sound like we're a joke to ZOS.

The changes seem like buffs on paper, and some streamers were even outraged that Werewolf got "buffs", but the Werewolf community has tested these changes and found that the result is a heavy nerf to the playstyle. I've personally tested the changes, and I'm losing 7k DPS — so now I can only hit about 100k DPS on the trial dummy using the meta sets and rotation.

Werewolf updates were few and far between in the past, so if these changes go live, then that's just how it's going to be. I just hope ZOS eventually gives us our own Scribing skill so we can swap out the most troublesome ability in our toolkit. We currently can't switch to better skills the way Necromancer can use all of their skill lines, and a Grimoire could've added so much that the Werewolf playstyle lacked.

Erickson9610

erdYrrson wrote: »

Yeah, jumping the gun is usually not the best.

I apologize for being excited that Werewolf finally got a lot of attention from ZOS after multiple updates of being a low priority for them. I'll do my best to rein in my excitement in the future — I just wanted to encourage ZOS to keep making Werewolf changes by showing appreciation.

Wuuffyy

Erickson9610 wrote: »

erdYrrson wrote: »

Yeah, jumping the gun is usually not the best.

I apologize for being excited that Werewolf finally got a lot of attention from ZOS after multiple updates of being a low priority for them. I'll do my best to rein in my excitement in the future — I just wanted to encourage ZOS to keep making Werewolf changes by showing appreciation.

Hey Erickson, I was hoping to have everything attached to the thread. Could you attach your CMX before and after to one of your first page posts here, please (edit one of them)?

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

erdYrrson wrote: »

Yeah, jumping the gun is usually not the best.

I apologize for being excited that Werewolf finally got a lot of attention from ZOS after multiple updates of being a low priority for them. I'll do my best to rein in my excitement in the future — I just wanted to encourage ZOS to keep making Werewolf changes by showing appreciation.

Hey Erickson, I was hoping to have everything attached to the thread. Could you attach your CMX before and after to one of your first page posts here, please (edit one of them)?

Done. It's been appended to my post near the bottom of the first page of this thread.

huskandhunger

All please remember to post your comments in the relevant PTS feedback thread on the PTS forums so more perspectives may be shared. Thanks 🐺

Skoomah

It’s all a lost cause. Just hang up them boots and play a non wolf character. Get ready to take an extra 5 seconds to get killed in exchange for hitting with pillow claws.

IncultaWolf

When I went on the pts and saw that "terrified" does nothing, can be purged, and has zero visual effects to know it's even active was extremely underwhelming. Not everyone uses a debuff tracker, and the wording in the patch notes for this change was very poor, pretty much everyone I know thought it was going to be like an actual tracking visual, like what happens in the vampire scion ultimate, or stealth detection.