Why does jumping not cost stamina?

Zabagad

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

On PC, ALL the "bunny hoppers" are using controller and have assigned macros to the "bunny hop"

lol - I use mouse and keyboard like fizzylu - so your "ALL" is totaly wrong.
And you have no clue if you say we would use macros to do whatever while jumping.

Drawing conclusions from one friend to all and then linking cheating accusations to it - if your story is true you should better report your "friend" to ZOS rather than saying something like that [snip] here...

SpacemanSpiff1

jumping is very unfair and triggering.

Amottica

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Those in support to bunny hopping, either don't have a clue what people complain about or abuse the system for themselves.

On PC, ALL the "bunny hoppers" are using controller and have assigned macros to the "bunny hop" which are attacks either light or skills alongside the bunny hop and fast movement with skills like Streak. That creates disorientation and anyone with keyboard & mouse is at HUGE disadvantage not been able to rotate fast enough even at maximum mouse sensitivity on someone who's just with click on the controller has done 2-3 things all together. (Again talking about PC here)

I have a friend like this, who is abusing this system and is not alone. Nobody can land a single hit on him because of the different latency each one has. Anyone with over 30ms is just a sitting duck for him and he admitted it so.

There is no skill involved is just outright EXPLOIT due to combination of factors and is not just the bunny hopping alone here.

So yeah I am up for bunny hopping costing stamina, A LOT OF stamina on consecutive jumps after 5 seconds progressively to whole pool. And then ZOS needs to start looking at the HUGE advantage controllers have on PC over keyboard & mouse.

I know for a fact that not all bunny hoppers use controllers or macros. I do not have a controller in the house and do not use macros.

I get hate whispers from players that I killed complaining that I played the game with skills such as movement and LOS and such. It is part of the game part of PvP in many MMORPGs. It is all part of attacking and countering which makes this more than a turn-based game. Fortunately Zenimax is not likely to change this.

dem0n1k

Realistically, jumping should increase your stamina as your character gets fitter from all that cardio! 😀

Sluggy

In the early days of ESO it actually did have a mechanical function. It would prevent the DK talons from gripping you which meant you could actually save stamina by not having to roll dodge to escape that. These days it's mostly for the reasons people stated above: Avoiding debris on the ground, maintaining a slight amount of momentum, making it easier to aim at ranged targets on hills (I personally use it for this a lot), and of course as a well-known taunt mechanic that directly travels through the internet and to your opponents brain In all of these cases I really can't say that a stamina cost would be justified.

AnduinTryggva

Considering how hard some fight for maintaining the stamina free chain jumping you can tell that it HAS an advantage.

fizzylu

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Considering how hard some fight for maintaining the stamina free chain jumping you can tell that it HAS an advantage.

Or people just don't want a nonsensical restriction that would be nothing but an inconvenience added onto something that never had one 10 years into the games existence just because some people dislike it and/or apparently don't realize that tab targeting is a thing.

AnduinTryggva

You mean like calling something "nonsensical" makes it "nonsensical"?

Your post is best proof of to what you just replied

of course making chain jumping cost some stamina will impact how people will play. No more running in circles around a pile of stones like a rabbit. I know that some really love this play style for obvious reasons. Of course people who got accustomed to something that plays in their favor don't want to lose that advantage.

WaywardArgonian

Because having to wait 5 seconds before you can jump over a knee-high fence because you ran out of stamina is bad game design. Just look at Graven and its horrid stamina system.

AnduinTryggva

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Because having to wait 5 seconds before you can jump over a knee-high fence because you ran out of stamina is bad game design. Just look at Graven and its horrid stamina system.

In how is it bad? I see people just write "it is bad", "it is nonsensical" but up to now I have not seen an explanation that is comprehensible.
To me that let me jump 100 times in a row over that fence is just because people got used to a body physics that is absolutely non physical. And having something more physical will challenge the habits of players. I understand that some players are absolutely against changes. They want things to always stay the same, not learn new stuff etc.

I mean if that stamina thing is such a bad thing I have another proposition: Don't apply a stamina cost on jumps but apply a cooldown so you cannot chain jump.

I still think that a first free jump and then stamina costs increasing with jumps made too soon might be still a more convenient solution as it won't block you against jumping twice in a row but you have to make that trade-off.

Sluggy

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Because having to wait 5 seconds before you can jump over a knee-high fence because you ran out of stamina is bad game design. Just look at Graven and its horrid stamina system.

In how is it bad? I see people just write "it is bad", "it is nonsensical" but up to now I have not seen an explanation that is comprehensible.
To me that let me jump 100 times in a row over that fence is just because people got used to a body physics that is absolutely non physical. And having something more physical will challenge the habits of players. I understand that some players are absolutely against changes. They want things to always stay the same, not learn new stuff etc.

I mean if that stamina thing is such a bad thing I have another proposition: Don't apply a stamina cost on jumps but apply a cooldown so you cannot chain jump.

I still think that a first free jump and then stamina costs increasing with jumps made too soon might be still a more convenient solution as it won't block you against jumping twice in a row but you have to make that trade-off.

So your argument is... realism? We should change core mechanics of a decade-old game to force people to learn how to play all over again because realism? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Galeriano2

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Because having to wait 5 seconds before you can jump over a knee-high fence because you ran out of stamina is bad game design. Just look at Graven and its horrid stamina system.

In how is it bad? I see people just write "it is bad", "it is nonsensical" but up to now I have not seen an explanation that is comprehensible.
To me that let me jump 100 times in a row over that fence is just because people got used to a body physics that is absolutely non physical. And having something more physical will challenge the habits of players. I understand that some players are absolutely against changes. They want things to always stay the same, not learn new stuff etc.

I mean if that stamina thing is such a bad thing I have another proposition: Don't apply a stamina cost on jumps but apply a cooldown so you cannot chain jump.

I still think that a first free jump and then stamina costs increasing with jumps made too soon might be still a more convenient solution as it won't block you against jumping twice in a row but you have to make that trade-off.

By that logic not only sprinting but also regular walking and running should also cost stamina because You know, body physics.

Majority of things we are doing in this game wouldn't be possible physically in real life. I won't even go for low hanging fruit which is magic but for example perfectly aimed bow shot every 1 second? Good luck with that.

Majority of actions in ESO in non convertable into real life one on one so why excatly are some people fixated so much over jumping specifically?

AnduinTryggva

It looks silly for a MMORG (ESO is not a jump'n'run game - at least it never was sold as such so some people dislikes because it destroys the "illusion" for ppl who bought it for the rpg aspects.

It is like getting aircraft or cars in a LoTR inspired game or a spaceship in a flic about King Arthur...

Sluggy

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It looks silly for a MMORG (ESO is not a jump'n'run game - at least it never was sold as such so some people dislikes because it destroys the "illusion" for ppl who bought it for the rpg aspects.

It is like getting aircraft or cars in a LoTR inspired game or a spaceship in a flic about King Arthur...

You know what? You win. Jumping, spaceships, eating, robots. They are all the same thing.

zaria

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Bunny hopping isn't irritating; mounts that completely obliterate my screen when summoned. . . now that's irritating.

This, rolling out of resource flag while shouting bomber because some has an flashy mount is weird, yes enemy see that flash too I assume.

fizzylu

Sluggy wrote: »

So your argument is... realism? We should change core mechanics of a decade-old game to force people to learn how to play all over again because realism? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

The "realism" argument cracks me up because what is realistic about our ESO characters with magic and super strength that come face to face with god level beings and can stand their ground against them? But sure, yeah.... I guess it makes sense for these not at all ordinary mortals to get winded from jumping a couple of times.

ESO_player123

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It looks silly for a MMORG (ESO is not a jump'n'run game - at least it never was sold as such so some people dislikes because it destroys the "illusion" for ppl who bought it for the rpg aspects.

It is like getting aircraft or cars in a LoTR inspired game or a spaceship in a flic about King Arthur...

It looks like most of the arguments against jumping concern PvP. Some say jumping gives advantages, some disagree (I do no know, I do not PvP). If you do not like something in PvP, could you please advocate for that thing to be changed in PvP and leave the rest of the game alone.

Rowjoh

JanTanhide wrote: »

If you want it to be more realistic then everything should cost stamina. When you pick up that huge 2H Broad Sword it should cost stamina. When you swing it it should cost stamina. Sure as heck shouldn't get stamina BACK from a heavy attack.

If you want realism then PVP players that are unkillable on 35k+ heath and max resistances, yet have high damage, high mobility and infinite sustain shouldn't exist either.

Amottica

ESO_player123 wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It looks silly for a MMORG (ESO is not a jump'n'run game - at least it never was sold as such so some people dislikes because it destroys the "illusion" for ppl who bought it for the rpg aspects.

It is like getting aircraft or cars in a LoTR inspired game or a spaceship in a flic about King Arthur...

It looks like most of the arguments against jumping concern PvP. Some say jumping gives advantages, some disagree (I do no know, I do not PvP). If you do not like something in PvP, could you please advocate for that thing to be changed in PvP and leave the rest of the game alone.

Zenimax tends to have things work the same in both areas with battle spirit being the only modification.

I do not think there is anything to be concerned about as I doubt this will change. It does not offer a real advantage, only psychological.

Sakiri

Amottica wrote: »

LadyLavina wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

No offense but a dislike of certain behavior is not a reason for it to cost something.

Hopping around is very common in Cyrodiil-style PvP and it is rare for a game like this to have it cost stamina. That rarity is likely a driving factor in the design here and is unlikely to change.

I suggest looking past it. If it is while in combat, well, it does not stop attacks from landing.

lol Amottica , in my experience the vast majority of the forums have been "I don't like (insert X), please destroy/get rid of/nerf it for (insert Y flimsy reasons or just no reasons).

Jumping in other games? Sure, stamina, exhaustion, what have you.

ESO with no stamina cost to jumping for 10 years? No added stamina cost should happen

Of course, a lot of threads are complaints about something or someone wanting things differently. That does not mean most of those threads should lead to changes. Heck, There does not seem to be a lot of agreement with the suggestion.

I cannot recall the last MMORPG I played where jumping cost stamina. I certainly can't recall a major title where this happens.

It does not provide an advantage so there is no justification for a cost. Ok, it offers an advantage with trolling a player which leads to them making a mistake but self-control and making wise choices counteracts that.

Morrowind iirc.

sharquez

If there was an Acrobatics skill it would make sense but there is not so forget about it. No trade off or progression it's just basic mobility method so no cost.

AnduinTryggva

fizzylu wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

So your argument is... realism? We should change core mechanics of a decade-old game to force people to learn how to play all over again because realism? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

The "realism" argument cracks me up because what is realistic about our ESO characters with magic and super strength that come face to face with god level beings and can stand their ground against them? But sure, yeah.... I guess it makes sense for these not at all ordinary mortals to get winded from jumping a couple of times.

It's not about jumping a couple of times. There are players out there that use jumping as their SOLE means of translational movement (in pve you can see this very rarely so much more in pvp that is why I don't get this argument "it is fun". Seems to be predominantly a pvp thing to have fun jumping while one would assume that statistically you would see this approximately as often in pve too)

master_vanargand

What should be prohibited are macros that enable bunny hopping.
It's a shame that this game has no or poor ability to detect hardware cheats.

Zabagad

master_vanargand wrote: »

What should be prohibited are macros that enable bunny hopping.
It's a shame that this game has no or poor ability to detect hardware cheats.

Even somebody said his friend is doing this with macros - I have my doubts that this is realy possible and/or senseful.

My personal experience since I'm a bunny hopper myself - the timing highly depends on the terrain. When jumping up/down stairs/hills/obstacles you cannot use the normal timing - you have to wait for the right moment when you land.
If you want to use horizontal actions like gapcloser/mistform/streak/dodgeroll you can't do that in the air.

So I guess a macro cannot do that without bigger problems like getting out of the rythm or you often miss the right moment for a horizontal action.
So - even some say so - and maybe some realy use macros, it's hard to believe that any advantage comes with it.
And if the people who claim that "there is no advantage to jumping", like Amottica recently, were right, it would be even worse.
Using a disadvantage for something which has only "psychological" effects
But I don't think they are right...

At the end of the day - it's just another button press like LA weaving and I don't see any reason why somebody needs a macro for that.

wolfie1.0.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Those in support to bunny hopping, either don't have a clue what people complain about or abuse the system for themselves.

On PC, ALL the "bunny hoppers" are using controller and have assigned macros to the "bunny hop" which are attacks either light or skills alongside the bunny hop and fast movement with skills like Streak. That creates disorientation and anyone with keyboard & mouse is at HUGE disadvantage not been able to rotate fast enough even at maximum mouse sensitivity on someone who's just with click on the controller has done 2-3 things all together. (Again talking about PC here)

I have a friend like this, who is abusing this system and is not alone. Nobody can land a single hit on him because of the different latency each one has. Anyone with over 30ms is just a sitting duck for him and he admitted it so.

There is no skill involved is just outright EXPLOIT due to combination of factors and is not just the bunny hopping alone here.

So yeah I am up for bunny hopping costing stamina, A LOT OF stamina on consecutive jumps after 5 seconds progressively to whole pool. And then ZOS needs to start looking at the HUGE advantage controllers have on PC over keyboard & mouse.

Report them for using macros. Your not supposed to use macros in eso it's a terms of service violation.

wolfie1.0.

If implemented then jumping should allow you to avoid ground aoe damage, it should also function similar to roll dodge, high ground should also matter as well. If we are going to have an action cost a resource then it had better do something in ALL aspects of the game.

And if we are doing this because of a "this makes no sense" aspect then we need to address a lot more things in the game. But let's also include siege. It makes no sense for siege to reload on its own. Someone should be present to reload the weapon during the process. One character being able to fire 2-3 siege weapons constantly is not in reality possible. Not only should the character be present but it should cost stamina or Magicka.

Sakiri

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Those in support to bunny hopping, either don't have a clue what people complain about or abuse the system for themselves.

On PC, ALL the "bunny hoppers" are using controller and have assigned macros to the "bunny hop" which are attacks either light or skills alongside the bunny hop and fast movement with skills like Streak. That creates disorientation and anyone with keyboard & mouse is at HUGE disadvantage not been able to rotate fast enough even at maximum mouse sensitivity on someone who's just with click on the controller has done 2-3 things all together. (Again talking about PC here)

I have a friend like this, who is abusing this system and is not alone. Nobody can land a single hit on him because of the different latency each one has. Anyone with over 30ms is just a sitting duck for him and he admitted it so.

There is no skill involved is just outright EXPLOIT due to combination of factors and is not just the bunny hopping alone here.

So yeah I am up for bunny hopping costing stamina, A LOT OF stamina on consecutive jumps after 5 seconds progressively to whole pool. And then ZOS needs to start looking at the HUGE advantage controllers have on PC over keyboard & mouse.

Report them for using macros. Your not supposed to use macros in eso it's a terms of service violation.

Would have to be able to prove it. Just saying it doesn't prove anything.

fizzylu

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Seems to be predominantly a pvp thing to have fun jumping while one would assume that statistically you would see this approximately as often in pve too)

I jump constantly in PvE and PvP, so there you go. And I disagree. Coordinated endgame PvE requires players to stand in certain spots to benefit from AoE buffs, synergies, and heals. You're not going to see players that focus on group endgame PvE do this nearly as much because it would possibly make them miss out on things like buffs from teammates, more damage/sustain from synergies, and heals. And all that would do is slow down and hinder the progress of the group through whatever content it is that they are doing.
Non ball group PvP players or casual PvE players like myself on the other hand don't have to worry about this and can jump around to our hearts content without having a healer yell at us that we stepped out of their AoE range. Instead, I just have to hear nonsense about a simple habit I developed before ESO even existed being me "trying hard" or the cries of people that apparently want players to be still targets. Which is wild since so much of this games combat is built around mobility. I mean, seriously.... we have players running around at constant super speeds with "one-shot rotations", dodging entire abilities left and right, and evading projectiles by going invisible.... but repetitive jumping is where the line should be drawn. Yeah, makes sense.

DrNukenstein

"I try so hard that I jump, LA, hold block use a skill, bash and sprint every GCD. I would never simplify these 5 non conflicting and entirely clippable actions I do every second down to one button (lol). Because using macros like some players but not myself definitely not myself is cheating, and cheating is wrong. Good players push all the buttons every second. Only losers use macros, not me because I don't use macros and I'm not a loser. I'm a good player I'm a good player"

MEBengalsFan2001

In pvp jumping does have a benefit where you are making a player miss and might help a player with avoiding aoe ground skills. It’s quite annoying. The same can be said in pve where you may have an enemy miss you due to aiming.

Jumping multiple times in row should have a negative consequence. I think on a third jump it should remove 500 stamina, 1500 on the fourth and fifth should be 4500, etc…