Why remove the coldharbour start?

Elsonso

Maitsukas wrote: »

Best route for the new character experience in my opinion is as follows:

1. Coldharbour tutorial (Soul Shriven in Coldharbour)
2. Balfiera tutorial (The Gates of Adamant)
   • Post-escape dialogue should occur in the cell before Norianwe approaches you on Balfiera.
   • Going from Coldharbour to Balfiera can make a bit more sense for the following reasons:
     • The Vestige appears on the island out of thin air
     • A Coldharbour-themed Harvester appeares on Balfiera at the same time to cause havoc
     • The newly discovered ability to consume skyshards, which allows the Vestige to progress into the Keywright's Gallery

It isn't even necessary to do a Tutorial in Balfiera. Just drop the player in the gate room, add some dialog, and let them take the portal to where they want. The rest of Balfiera and that whole tutorial can be tossed in the waste bin. New glue dialog to set the context and make it right, and Bob's your uncle!

So, just the Prison tutorial, updated to current standards, find Prophet, escape to Tamriel, land in gate room, pick where you want to go. Center gates go to the latest Chapter or start the base game on the starting island appropriate to their Alliance. If they want to go do another alliance first, then those gates are off to the side, as are the other chapters.

The players that skip the tutorial just start the game in the gate room.

There is no need for hooded figures. Everyone has lost their soul, so the base game dialog and assumptions remain consistent. Players can choose to do whatever content they have available to them.

OtarTheMad

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I suspect they thought the Coldharbour tutorial is too closely tied to the base game's main story and they don't think that's the best part of the game any more so they want to funnel new players into newer stuff instead.

When Morrowind came out it had a new, Morrowind specific tutorial that dropped you on Vvardenfell. If you owned the chapter that completely replaced the base game tutorial and (as now) you had to go to a base game city and pick up the quest to go to Coldharbour.

They did new chapter-specific tutorials for all the ones up to Greymoor, then with Blackwood they added the current tutorial which was designed to be universal (it's not tied to any part of the game) and gave you a choice of where you end up.

ZOS have never said why they did that, but we can speculate. If they just wanted to change what you're taught in the tutorial they could do that (they'd already adjusted the Coldharbour one a few times). If they wanted to change the end -point they could do that too (add a step where the Prophet asks where you want to go or several portals or something).

Considering they've made other efforts to funnel new players into the newest areas of the game right away (like putting difficult to ignore quest givers in starter cities) I suspect they think the older areas of the game are not their best work and they want to show off the newest stuff first because they think it will be more appealing to new players.

I'm not convinced it works like that, new players typically seem to want to do one of 3 things:
1) Play the entire game in chronological/release order
2) Play whatever their friends tell them to play
3) They have their own plan - e.g. they got ESO specifically for trials or PvP or something and want to go straight there

I think the Coldharbour tutorial would work best for group 1 and what/where the tutorial is will be irrelevant for group 2 and 3, but it's not my decision.

I really miss the intro areas, particularly the Morrowind one. They should have left them in as the start to the zone and just removed the skyshard/skillpoint.

You can still go to the Vvardenfell tutorial, or at least part of it, via a quest. Same with the Summerset one.

I am sad that we lost Deepwood Redoubt/Barrow though when Greymoor year was over. Such a big area to lose, and it was one of my favorite places to go in Skyrim so it was nice to run around it again.

No, you cannot do the Summerset one. The place where the tutorial dumps you is just a locked gate now. The zone quest is different and starts with Razumdar, but that is different than the tutorial.

I think we might be talking about different quests maybe. I’ve never gotten the quest that replaces the tutorial for Summerset from Razum-dar.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Whispers_from_the_Deep

This is the quest I am talking about. It’s like the second half of the tutorial kind of. Maybe I’m mistaken, it’s been a while since I’ve done anything Summerset related.

I do not see how you can start that in the game now. Though I guess I do not go to that area much now, so perhaps something is there that I have either bypassed or never seen since whatever came after Summerset replaced the tutorial.

Now I only get the guy at the Shimmerene Wayshrine that leads to Razumdar. (SP? for both names.)

You just find Oriandra in Summerset and can get the quest if you didn’t do the Summerset tutorial.

Back then what ZOS did was create two quests, a tutorial for those who are new or created a new character for Morrowind or Summerset, and then they also made a quest for current characters who already did a tutorial in the past. This was done for skill point reasons I believe but I think also to keep at least some of the tutorial area in the game.

So while you can’t do the tutorial for Morrowind and Summerset anymore you can still go the Mind place and Firemoth Island for another quest.

Alastrine

vsrs_au wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

The Coldharbour introduction should return. The game is enormous and it's probably better for new players to have some sense of direction. The way it is now, some are unaware that there is a main story at all.

Yes, many new players (including myself when I started playing ESO 3 years ago) have no idea what all these references to the "vestige" actually mean.

Exactly this.
Lots of new players aren't even aware of the Cold Harbor / Molag Bal storyline.
I still do it on all my new toons - just for the skill points and xp. I can blow through it now quickly since I've done it so many times but for new players to ESO? I absolutely think it should put them there with their first character.

shadyjane62

I just made a char and ran her thru the new way. I will only say that if this was the way I had started 10 Years ago, I would have deleted the game and demanded my money back and failing that I would have spent all my online explaining how bad the game is.

TaSheen

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I just made a char and ran her thru the new way. I will only say that if this was the way I had started 10 Years ago, I would have deleted the game and demanded my money back and failing that I would have spent all my online explaining how bad the game is.

I, on the other hand, refused to mess with the prophet MQ for a couple of years, preferring (as is normal for me) to "run and find out" - Kipling is STILL the master of visuals produced by words - how this version of the world I've spent my gaming time in since 1994 is constructed, and what this iteration of the Elder Scrolls games has to offer.

I'm not - really interested in any game's MQ for the most part....

OtarTheMad

Alastrine wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

The Coldharbour introduction should return. The game is enormous and it's probably better for new players to have some sense of direction. The way it is now, some are unaware that there is a main story at all.

Yes, many new players (including myself when I started playing ESO 3 years ago) have no idea what all these references to the "vestige" actually mean.

Exactly this.
Lots of new players aren't even aware of the Cold Harbor / Molag Bal storyline.
I still do it on all my new toons - just for the skill points and xp. I can blow through it now quickly since I've done it so many times but for new players to ESO? I absolutely think it should put them there with their first character.

I was in Auridon during a recent event, don’t remember which one, but while at the Impresario I noticed someone in zone ask “what’s the deal with the giant anchors that drop?” It was nuts to me that someone had no idea about the main story. ZOS should really think about that and maybe alter the current tutorial.

Sabre

The fact that the character does not have a soul, it should somehow be made to play into character creation.

The initial Coldharbor start introduces the player to Lyris Titanborn and Cadwell. When you think about it, both are somewhat annoying. The start of this heroic adventure and you run into the comic relief cadwell character. It is lackluster and not their best work. Lyris is heroic, but disappointingly not attractive and of course, they had to put make the big nord girl have a romance with the Redguard Sai. The original story is ok, but again, Cadwell turns it into a joke...I don't get what they were trying to do there. The whole thing should be rewritten, and more drawn out and turned into a solo dungeon -and where Molag Baal is a badass one has to defeat with solo dungeon difficulty (like maelstrom) and not delve difficulty. Besides an achievment to the story, what benefit does one get for defeating Molag Baal? The way the original story interwines the guilds is a nice feature - but the comic relief and disappointing anti-heroic characters as the first thing one meets is a flop.

Sabre

Rework it and make Coldharbor like Craglorn or even more difficult so it feels like an accomplishment.

FlopsyPrince

OtarTheMad wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I suspect they thought the Coldharbour tutorial is too closely tied to the base game's main story and they don't think that's the best part of the game any more so they want to funnel new players into newer stuff instead.

When Morrowind came out it had a new, Morrowind specific tutorial that dropped you on Vvardenfell. If you owned the chapter that completely replaced the base game tutorial and (as now) you had to go to a base game city and pick up the quest to go to Coldharbour.

They did new chapter-specific tutorials for all the ones up to Greymoor, then with Blackwood they added the current tutorial which was designed to be universal (it's not tied to any part of the game) and gave you a choice of where you end up.

ZOS have never said why they did that, but we can speculate. If they just wanted to change what you're taught in the tutorial they could do that (they'd already adjusted the Coldharbour one a few times). If they wanted to change the end -point they could do that too (add a step where the Prophet asks where you want to go or several portals or something).

Considering they've made other efforts to funnel new players into the newest areas of the game right away (like putting difficult to ignore quest givers in starter cities) I suspect they think the older areas of the game are not their best work and they want to show off the newest stuff first because they think it will be more appealing to new players.

I'm not convinced it works like that, new players typically seem to want to do one of 3 things:
1) Play the entire game in chronological/release order
2) Play whatever their friends tell them to play
3) They have their own plan - e.g. they got ESO specifically for trials or PvP or something and want to go straight there

I think the Coldharbour tutorial would work best for group 1 and what/where the tutorial is will be irrelevant for group 2 and 3, but it's not my decision.

I really miss the intro areas, particularly the Morrowind one. They should have left them in as the start to the zone and just removed the skyshard/skillpoint.

You can still go to the Vvardenfell tutorial, or at least part of it, via a quest. Same with the Summerset one.

I am sad that we lost Deepwood Redoubt/Barrow though when Greymoor year was over. Such a big area to lose, and it was one of my favorite places to go in Skyrim so it was nice to run around it again.

No, you cannot do the Summerset one. The place where the tutorial dumps you is just a locked gate now. The zone quest is different and starts with Razumdar, but that is different than the tutorial.

I think we might be talking about different quests maybe. I’ve never gotten the quest that replaces the tutorial for Summerset from Razum-dar.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Whispers_from_the_Deep

This is the quest I am talking about. It’s like the second half of the tutorial kind of. Maybe I’m mistaken, it’s been a while since I’ve done anything Summerset related.

I do not see how you can start that in the game now. Though I guess I do not go to that area much now, so perhaps something is there that I have either bypassed or never seen since whatever came after Summerset replaced the tutorial.

Now I only get the guy at the Shimmerene Wayshrine that leads to Razumdar. (SP? for both names.)

You just find Oriandra in Summerset and can get the quest if you didn’t do the Summerset tutorial.

Back then what ZOS did was create two quests, a tutorial for those who are new or created a new character for Morrowind or Summerset, and then they also made a quest for current characters who already did a tutorial in the past. This was done for skill point reasons I believe but I think also to keep at least some of the tutorial area in the game.

So while you can’t do the tutorial for Morrowind and Summerset anymore you can still go the Mind place and Firemoth Island for another quest.

I was not aware of this and I have 50+ alts and started in Summerset (and ran most of my characters through at least part of the core quest line there.

Thanks to you and the other reply for the enlightentment.

Alastrine

Sabre wrote: »

The fact that the character does not have a soul, it should somehow be made to play into character creation.

The initial Coldharbor start introduces the player to Lyris Titanborn and Cadwell. When you think about it, both are somewhat annoying. The start of this heroic adventure and you run into the comic relief cadwell character. It is lackluster and not their best work. Lyris is heroic, but disappointingly not attractive and of course, they had to put make the big nord girl have a romance with the Redguard Sai. All of the coldharbor part is disappointing. The original story is ok, but again, Cadwell turns it into a joke...I don't get what they were trying to do there. The whole thing should be rewritten, and more drawn out and turned into a solo dungeon -and where Molag Baal is a badass one has to defeat with solo dungeon difficulty (like maelstrom) and not delve difficulty. The way the original story interwines the guilds is a nice feature - but the comic relief and disappointing anti-heroic characters as the first thing one meets is a flop.

I would agree that it wasn't the best but I don't think it is as bad as all that. Of course, it's a matter of personal preference.

I disagree with the solo dungeon part and making it a difficulty like Maelstrom..... more difficult yes, but not so much as to discourage a new player, and I'd prefer they kept it like it is - short story pieces, with a skill point reward for each. Only better written, including Cadwell's comic relief. The part tying the factions together to fight Molag Bal I liked... It helped it make sense to go on and play the other faction lines after completing the first one (Caldwell Silver and Gold) which has also gotten lost over time. Completing Silver gives you a motif (Soul Shriven) you can't earn any other way in the entire game... I bet many don't even realize that.

Don't forget, that whole storyline used to be based on your character level, back when the difficulty ramped up in the different zones instead of this open world / scaling thing. I really miss the zones changing in difficulty as you progressed through them - was always fun when you stuck your nose in where it didn't yet belong and got smacked. Made you play a zone until you were levelled and kitted out to go on. Now it seems to me all the storylines are so easy, in any zone, no matter what level you are. It's all a bit of a yawn now so far as difficulty in questing goes.

But definitely make it first again. So people understand why they are called vestige, what the anchors are and why they are dropping, the Daedric Princes, and so on. I just feel so much is lost if a new player doesn't play it first, even as it is.

FlopsyPrince

Make the tutorial as hard as Maelstrom? Who thought that would be a good idea?

katanagirl1

Sabre wrote: »

The fact that the character does not have a soul, it should somehow be made to play into character creation.

The initial Coldharbor start introduces the player to Lyris Titanborn and Cadwell. When you think about it, both are somewhat annoying. The start of this heroic adventure and you run into the comic relief cadwell character. It is lackluster and not their best work. Lyris is heroic, but disappointingly not attractive and of course, they had to put make the big nord girl have a romance with the Redguard Sai. The original story is ok, but again, Cadwell turns it into a joke...I don't get what they were trying to do there. The whole thing should be rewritten, and more drawn out and turned into a solo dungeon -and where Molag Baal is a badass one has to defeat with solo dungeon difficulty (like maelstrom) and not delve difficulty. Besides an achievment to the story, what benefit does one get for defeating Molag Baal? The way the original story interwines the guilds is a nice feature - but the comic relief and disappointing anti-heroic characters as the first thing one meets is a flop.

I was sad to see the original starter area for the Wailing Prison redone and our characters starting out in a new place. The new tutorial can get you back to your starter area, but only if you know what faction you are in and which starter area corresponds to that faction. You still have to find and do the Benefactor quest after that.

I think the main storyline is actually done quite well. There are big name voice actors there and the voice acting is much better than any done since. I have done it on 7 of my 8 characters so far.

EDIT: clarification

barney2525

The Coldharbor Start FORCED every character to begin at their Faction Starting Zone.

With the advent of DLCs they wanted to give the Players More Options and more freedom to progress as the Player wanted to.

Although something I found interesting. I have abrand new account for Gold Road, so first character is forced into the tutorial. At the end of the tutorial, instead of being able to choose any of the Zones I Have access to, everything except my Faction Starting zone was chained off.

I imagine this is because it was the first character ever, on the account.

Sakiri

barney2525 wrote: »

The Coldharbor Start FORCED every character to begin at their Faction Starting Zone.

With the advent of DLCs they wanted to give the Players More Options and more freedom to progress as the Player wanted to.

Although something I found interesting. I have abrand new account for Gold Road, so first character is forced into the tutorial. At the end of the tutorial, instead of being able to choose any of the Zones I Have access to, everything except my Faction Starting zone was chained off.

I imagine this is because it was the first character ever, on the account.

Yes. They changed it for the patch.

jle30303

Still... Even with the whole Coldharbour thing... Even if you get pointed towards your main faction... There is the issue of the starter zones versus the main zones within the faction quest.

Like, you go to the starter islands... you get through the starter islands... you get to the main zone... you meet The Prophet... You get soul shriven in Coldharbour... You get dumped back on the starter island, where there is now nothing to do because you did it already.

No. Coldharbour and Soul Shriven should start BEFORE your faction quests, and dump you INTO your faction quests.

So... From the new tutorial, assuming the new tutorial is kept... Once you get to the final chamber... For those who want the original zones and the game's main quest: Instead of 3 separate gates to the faction starter zones, there should be 1 gate, and it leads to "Soul Shriven in Coldharbour" DIRECTLY, and completing this should then drop you in your faction starter zone (as it does now!): so you learn to start both Soul Shriven and Your Own Faction's Questline simultaneously.

And this should be THE MOST OBVIOUSLY SIGNPOSTED GATE even if there are options of others (depending on whether the player has any or all of Morrowind, Summerset, Elsweyr, Greymoor, Blackwood, High Isle, Necrom, Gold Road.) Like, flashing, glowing, larger than the others, different colour, whatever makes it more visible and more signposted. But, ONE, not THREE, and it leads to Soul Shriven In Coldharbour, not to any Faction zone.

The one thing you shouldn't have the option of, is going straight to an enemy faction to start there, with no indication of which is even yours. (Like, a new player who has chosen a Pact race, is not even told which of the starter zones is the Pact zone, and if not knowing where to go, could just as easily choose a Dominion or Covenant zone. People should be OPENLY DIRECTED to their OWN faction if they are choosing that part of the game at all.)

Gates to alternative Chapters... If you take those, it's assumed you know what you're doing: and you can later pick up "Soul Shriven in Coldharbour" the current way, if you want to pick it up at all.

Choosing to "auto-complete the tutorial" should put the player, not in the newest zone, but in the choice chamber with a selection of equipment that one could have picked up during the tutorial, at level 3 and with whatever skills or skill points could have been picked up during the tutorial.

katanagirl1

jle30303 wrote: »

Still... Even with the whole Coldharbour thing... Even if you get pointed towards your main faction... There is the issue of the starter zones versus the main zones within the faction quest.

Like, you go to the starter islands... you get through the starter islands... you get to the main zone... you meet The Prophet... You get soul shriven in Coldharbour... You get dumped back on the starter island, where there is now nothing to do because you did it already.

No. Coldharbour and Soul Shriven should start BEFORE your faction quests, and dump you INTO your faction quests.

So... From the new tutorial, assuming the new tutorial is kept... Once you get to the final chamber... For those who want the original zones and the game's main quest: Instead of 3 separate gates to the faction starter zones, there should be 1 gate, and it leads to "Soul Shriven in Coldharbour" DIRECTLY, and completing this should then drop you in your faction starter zone (as it does now!): so you learn to start both Soul Shriven and Your Own Faction's Questline simultaneously.

And this should be THE MOST OBVIOUSLY SIGNPOSTED GATE even if there are options of others (depending on whether the player has any or all of Morrowind, Summerset, Elsweyr, Greymoor, Blackwood, High Isle, Necrom, Gold Road.) Like, flashing, glowing, larger than the others, different colour, whatever makes it more visible and more signposted. But, ONE, not THREE, and it leads to Soul Shriven In Coldharbour, not to any Faction zone.

The one thing you shouldn't have the option of, is going straight to an enemy faction to start there, with no indication of which is even yours. (Like, a new player who has chosen a Pact race, is not even told which of the starter zones is the Pact zone, and if not knowing where to go, could just as easily choose a Dominion or Covenant zone. People should be OPENLY DIRECTED to their OWN faction if they are choosing that part of the game at all.)

Gates to alternative Chapters... If you take those, it's assumed you know what you're doing: and you can later pick up "Soul Shriven in Coldharbour" the current way, if you want to pick it up at all.

Choosing to "auto-complete the tutorial" should put the player, not in the newest zone, but in the choice chamber with a selection of equipment that one could have picked up during the tutorial, at level 3 and with whatever skills or skill points could have been picked up during the tutorial.

Yep, you mentioned something I forgot to put in my post.

After I go through the new tutorial, I choose the appropriate starter zone from the portals, then I have to skip through the first starter zone and get to the next zone with a major city to get the Benefactor quest, go through the Wailing Prison, and end up back in the first starter zone again. That ‘s a lot of hoops to jump through for each character.

Also, I don’t do dlc or chapter zone quests on any but my main character. I’ll only go there later on if that character needs skyshards and I already have all the base game ones.

So this system might serve new players who don’t care about the story and just want to jump into an active zone, but not long-time players like me.

Sabre

The reason for this confusion and lack of order is because originally, the first thing a new character would see is the film of being chained and dragged to Mannimarco to be killed and have the soul stolen. The character would then wake up in Coldharbor and have to escape. Upon Escaping, the new character was then put into the starting island area. Upon completing the starter area the prophet would approach the character (there was no benefactor). Also, the prophet only bothered you every 5 levels so it wasnt like you could complete a harborage quest and immediately do another one. There was an actual progression to the main story to start the game and it felt like upon escaping Coldharbor that the character had a break, a relief on the starter island like a breath of fresh air. In fact, you used to have to go to a wayshrine on the starter island to travel to the main zone starting cities (lDaggerfall, Vulkhel Guard, Davon's Watch).
The Coldharbor start was a bit underwhelming - and to defend the way things are now, the character is not murdered and have the soul stolen until the start of the benefactor quest, coldharbor, etc.
Some may remember the game when it first came out and how it was fun just exploring the first areas, then doing all the quests and fighters guild, mage's guild - along with the harborage - it was quite fun.
If it were still setup that way, it would be easy for an experienced player on a new character to travel to the new dlc by going to a wayshrine.
Sometimes think that the game should start with the murder scene then the first harborage quest where you 'enter the prophet's mind' where he describes dark anchors, what happened and you are presented the 5 companions. Going straight to that and skipping the coldharbor start, or reordering things somehow with the Lyris/Prophet trade etc. would show new players what is happening, dark anchors, and get things moving along a little faster until one decided to proceed further into the main story/harborage questline.
Oh the time I remember spent running around Auridon and Stonefalls on new characters! (didn't get into DC story as much, but it may actually be because of the elves).