No changes to accommodate the disabled players?

N3rD162

nokturnihs wrote: »

So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs. Is ESO just gonna push the RSI (repetitive stress injury) play style going forward or you guys gonna give those of us with issues a chance to participate in all elements of the game we pay for?

Some suggestions:
- Disable mythics in PvP or balance PvE and PvP separately like you should have done years ago.
- disable light attack weaving altogether by increasing LA cooldowns to 1 second. Alternatively, put a DPS speed limiter in effect that artificially levels the playing field with the try hards and the "hurts to play but i enjoy the game" crowd.
- better than that give us world tiers so the try hards can do any content with as much sweat and blood as they like but those of us who just want ACCESS to the content can enjoy the game more casually.

I have a hard time getting excited over this game anymore. Gold road looked great but then I read the patch notes and it's hard to not come to the conclusion that ZOS just doesn't seem to understand their disabled players or care. It makes it hard to play the game. Was excited about infinite archive but again, it's a game that's really only geared towards try hard chads and has a virtual "No entry" sign over it for disabled or more casual players.

Just my opinion but you already have a ton of activities for the try hards chads and the overland content doesn't offer a lot of value for time like a dungeon or trial.

I'd love someone at ZOS to address the issue with disabled players directly if they'd be so kind?

Suggestions like these are what has been slowly killing off this game, ESO's combat since around high isle has decreased in both enjoyability and balance in both PvE and PvP. The main culprit being the extension of DoT durations making rotations in PvE feels like a slog of placing down your 30+ second DoTs and pressing the same spammable 100 times over and likewise in PvP where you have a group of people attacking you all casting 30 second DoTs on you which essentially guarantees your death even with perfect kiting and defensive play due to these uncounterable 'sticky' dots which basically last forever. Furthermore, the prevalence of these DoTs lead to a playstyle which is extremely unengaging both for the player and if in PvP your opponent as it no longer feels like you are having an impact on what you are doing but instead your DoTs or proc sets are doing all the work and you are simply a passenger.

While I do understand your need for accessibility, you can't expect ZOS to cater fully to a minority rather than doing what is best for the vast majority of the player base. In addition, I don't see the problem with HA builds, 1 bar etc in their current form. You can already complete every vet trial and even some HMs with them and a team comp that is nowhere near optimal. The game is already at it's most accessible (and easiest) in its current form and you can't expect to be able to get trifectas without at least playing in the optimal way. It is already easier than ever to get them with the extreme power creep that has taken place over the last 3 or 4 years and any changes to make it even easier would dumb down the satisfaction when you finally clear that HM or you and your group get that miracle run to get that trifectas you have been working towards for months. Those incredible moments wouldn't have the same significance that make you remember them for years to come, which is what I think makes ESO special and makes me always come back no matter how jaded I am with the state of the game. In PvP it is the same, if you make it too accessible you'll far more rarely be able to make that incredible play that saves you and your friends from certain death when outnumbered with the odds stacked against you.

I would like to reiterate that I am sorry that you feel this way and can empathise to an extent but I do believe for the most part that the game should be catered to the many not to the few.

LunaFlora

N3rD162 wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs. Is ESO just gonna push the RSI (repetitive stress injury) play style going forward or you guys gonna give those of us with issues a chance to participate in all elements of the game we pay for?

Some suggestions:
- Disable mythics in PvP or balance PvE and PvP separately like you should have done years ago.
- disable light attack weaving altogether by increasing LA cooldowns to 1 second. Alternatively, put a DPS speed limiter in effect that artificially levels the playing field with the try hards and the "hurts to play but i enjoy the game" crowd.
- better than that give us world tiers so the try hards can do any content with as much sweat and blood as they like but those of us who just want ACCESS to the content can enjoy the game more casually.

I have a hard time getting excited over this game anymore. Gold road looked great but then I read the patch notes and it's hard to not come to the conclusion that ZOS just doesn't seem to understand their disabled players or care. It makes it hard to play the game. Was excited about infinite archive but again, it's a game that's really only geared towards try hard chads and has a virtual "No entry" sign over it for disabled or more casual players.

Just my opinion but you already have a ton of activities for the try hards chads and the overland content doesn't offer a lot of value for time like a dungeon or trial.

I'd love someone at ZOS to address the issue with disabled players directly if they'd be so kind?

Suggestions like these are what has been slowly killing off this game, ESO's combat since around high isle has decreased in both enjoyability and balance in both PvE and PvP. The main culprit being the extension of DoT durations making rotations in PvE feels like a slog of placing down your 30+ second DoTs and pressing the same spammable 100 times over and likewise in PvP where you have a group of people attacking you all casting 30 second DoTs on you which essentially guarantees your death even with perfect kiting and defensive play due to these uncounterable 'sticky' dots which basically last forever. Furthermore, the prevalence of these DoTs lead to a playstyle which is extremely unengaging both for the player and if in PvP your opponent as it no longer feels like you are having an impact on what you are doing but instead your DoTs or proc sets are doing all the work and you are simply a passenger.

While I do understand your need for accessibility, you can't expect ZOS to cater fully to a minority rather than doing what is best for the vast majority of the player base. In addition, I don't see the problem with HA builds, 1 bar etc in their current form. You can already complete every vet trial and even some HMs with them and a team comp that is nowhere near optimal. The game is already at it's most accessible (and easiest) in its current form and you can't expect to be able to get trifectas without at least playing in the optimal way. It is already easier than ever to get them with the extreme power creep that has taken place over the last 3 or 4 years and any changes to make it even easier would dumb down the satisfaction when you finally clear that HM or you and your group get that miracle run to get that trifectas you have been working towards for months. Those incredible moments wouldn't have the same significance that make you remember them for years to come, which is what I think makes ESO special and makes me always come back no matter how jaded I am with the state of the game. In PvP it is the same, if you make it too accessible you'll far more rarely be able to make that incredible play that saves you and your friends from certain death when outnumbered with the odds stacked against you.

I would like to reiterate that I am sorry that you feel this way and can empathise to an extent but I do believe for the most part that the game should be catered to the many not to the few.

please use more paragraph breaks.
Your comment is funnily enough inaccessible due to how few paragraph breaks it has, reading it is genuinely difficult.


The game is absolutely not at its most accessible.

There are no options for different colour schemes to accommodate colorblind players.
which is something a lot of games do have even if they don't have options that eso does have.

There's still no option to turn off the white flashes we get from Hardmode Scrolls, Aetherian Archive portals, and some story quests.
Though i have never heard of any abled players who actually like those flashes so maybe completely deleting them would be better.


You could think of plenty more ways to make eso more accessible.
- Like a story mode for dungeons which this interview confirmed is on zos' to-do list so it will eventually happen which is awesome.
"Lambert says storymode for dungeons is “really hard because it’s essentially a third difficulty mode”; it’s on the list but probably isn’t happening any time soon."

https://massivelyop.com/2024/01/18/elder-scrolls-onlines-gold-road-chapter-takes-players-back-to-oblivions-best-city-on-june-3/

i don't believe you could ever say a game is at its most accessible.
it can improve and should improve.
Maybe there are some things that can't be added or changed, but not everything is impossible.

Ph1p

LunaFlora wrote: »

The game is absolutely not at its most accessible.

There are no options for different colour schemes to accommodate colorblind players.
which is something a lot of games do have even if they don't have options that eso does have.

With regards to difficulty level and player power, ESO is arguably much more accessible than it has been during most of its lifecycle. I did not interpret the previous post as claiming that it is as accessible as it could possibly be towards every kind of disability out there.

And while there is always more that could be done, ESO does have the option to freely select the color of friendly and enemy ground AOEs, for example.

EDIT: Added emphasis

frogthroat

nokturnihs wrote: »

So we lost HA builds,

I really don't know what you are talking about.

I have a HA build for my templar. It's my crafting/scrying build that can also do whatever else not specialised. I was recently asked to come fill in the last boss at vDSR and I forgot you can't switch builds when you are inside the trial. Oh well, HA build it is then. While I was quite the bottom dps there, I didn't completely suck. So yes, even vDSR is... not optimal, but somewhat possible.

I've helped several players to get started with builds and some of them require a simpler build. One lovely lady who had multiple brain surgeries is unable to join organised raids and did not know how to build any builds. She was relying on a companion to carry her overland. So I crafted Julianos+Order and she got herself Oakensoul. We built her a HA build with just those. She has since soloed some dungeons, world bosses, public dungeons, even a deadlands portal. With crafted sets and a HA build.

I was recently doing a duo IA. Our plan was to just farm arcs 1 and 2 for the gear. I was with a sub-optimal build that does more damage and less survival, and the other one came with a HA sorc. We were talking while playing and somewhere in the middle of arc 4 we realised hey, we should have reset this already. So we finished arc 4 and reset the instance. With HA sorc you can go 4 arcs of IA by accident.

HA builds are not bis, not even close. But they are still viable. Very much so. Even if you don't have the typical sets, but instead rely on crafted sets HA builds are still pretty good.

nokturnihs wrote: »

My disability is related to my nervous system and CNS, causes my extremities to lose most feeling, spasticity, artificial weakness (bad signals) and turns every signal my body receives into pain signals due to small fiber degeneration.

Yeah, that might make la-weaving a tad difficult. I recently helped a guy who had a stroke to build a HA build. He still has issues with one side of his body where his eye and his arm just don't work the same as they used to. Kinda works, but reflexes are not good. Started with the Julianos+Order and two pieces Druid, and laid out an upgrade path. Dig up Oakensoul, farm Wayrest for Slimecraw and Sergeant. Replace Julianos with Sergeant, and then, well, Order can be used longer but that can be eventually replaced. It's still an on-going project but already when he got the build without Oakensoul, he said that it is now possible to play the game. A lot more damage compared to trying conventional builds.

HA oakensorc will not be a top dps, but HA builds are not dead. They do exactly what ZOS intended them to do: help people with disabilities to play the game.

frogthroat

Jammy420 wrote: »

Lmao, I have no meta builds, and have never once used a dummy, and I only play the game every six months or so, and I can tell you with certainty the game is 100 percent being catered to casuals now. If I, someone with bad vision, multiple arythmias, and rheumatism can still light attack weave and do perfect rotations, then so can you.

That's a bit harsh. Not everyone has the same kind of disabilities. Some can have different kinds of physical ailments that prevent la-weaving, or at least makes it really difficult. Others might have learning disabilities that makes learning rotations impossible. "If I can, so can you" is not a very good thing to say in this context. The thing is people are different and some can't do what you can.

LunaFlora

Ph1p wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

The game is absolutely not at its most accessible.

There are no options for different colour schemes to accommodate colorblind players.
which is something a lot of games do have even if they don't have options that eso does have.

With regards to difficulty level and player power, ESO is arguably much more accessible than it has been during most of its lifecycle. I did not interpret the previous post as claiming that it is as accessible as it could possibly be towards every kind of disability out there.

And while there is always more that could be done, ESO does have the option to freely select the color of friendly and enemy ground AOEs, for example.

EDIT: Added emphasis

i might have thought that too if they didn't also say
"In PvP it is the same, if you make it too accessible you'll far more rarely be able to make that incredible play that saves you and your friends from certain death when outnumbered with the odds stacked against you."

something can't be "too accessible". more accessibility is a good thing.
it's supposed to help anyone that wants the help.


And yes we can change the ally and enemy Area of Effect colours which is good. but we do need more.

CameraBeardThePirate

nokturnihs wrote: »

This is specifically related to the Arcanist portions of my original statements but frankly speaking losing 7% damage off the beam isn't that bad - the nerfed damage shield is what most bugged me about the changes considering you're pretty vulnerable while channeling, it's an ability pretty easy to disable and the big insta heals kinda suck on Arcanist.

It doesn't help that I don't remember DK ever getting a nerf without also getting a buff which makes it unique compared to every other class. To be fair i haven't always paid attention to patch notes and DK sucked at launch but it also just gets kinda old seeing that trend in the last several updates without that consistency in other classes. Yes i have DKs, i actually have too many characters (16?) - I'd just like to see all the classes receive the same amount of love.

The damage shield isn't being nerfed - it's being fixed. It was supposed to have a cap, but it didn't. Now it does.

And frankly, a cap of 55% of your health on an offensive ability is still more than enough.

Just because you "don't remember" DK ever getting a nerf without a buff doesn't mean it hasn't happened. That's a logical fallacy.

Ph1p

LunaFlora wrote: »

something can't be "too accessible". more accessibility is a good thing.

There are two ways to improve accessibility:

"Remove the impact of the disability"
You can try to address the specific disability itself so it becomes less of a hindrance. In-game examples include subtitles for the hearing-impaired or an AoE color wheel for the color-blind. Here I would agree with you: Every additional feature improves the experience for someone and allows more people to enjoy the game.

"Adjust the rules of the game"
You can also try to change the game itself, so people can play it despite still being impacted by the same disability. This includes having multiple difficulty levels or game-play less centered around LA weaving, like HA Oakensoul or Arcanist builds.

However, a possible downside of this approach in an MMO is that the changes affect multiplayer balance and also apply to players without disabilities. Your intention may be to lift up someone struggling with arthritis via a new set or ability. But it wouldn't be good for the game, if a non-disabled player using the same suddenly reached trifecta score-pusher levels of power. It trivializes existing content and can upset the learning experience as well as long-term motivation.

Now, I don't know where exactly the sweet spot between those two is and that's a great discussion worth having. Personally, I think it should be somewhere that allows most people to enjoy veteran content. But in this case, more accessibility is not automatically a good thing.

EDIT: Minor wording

Sync01

ESO is not a single player game and can't have players choosing different difficulties. Yes, you can for example choose to do a trial on normal, but that normal will be the same for all players.

Games also need to have a skill progression, and in any mmo the time you need to invest to get from a decent player to a great player is going to be massive. Most players can't do the hardest content in the game, regardless if they have a disability or not, because it requires skill developed over time.

Every single person I know that has all or most trifectas have spent years getting them and groups typically spend months getting a hm clear or a trifecta depending on the skill level of the group, and of course what trial it is. For example, Rockgrove HM is in a different realm than Asylum HM and ties back into skill progression. It's just not realistic to demand that everyone should be able to do everything, especially in an mmo.

You can do most content with a HA build in its current form, including several trifectas, because the dps requirements are honestly quite low for the older trials. That may not mean that you can do those trifectas because there is more to trials than standing in one spot and doing damage.

nokturnihs

Braffin wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I am not trying to "win" anything. I just don't understand this "all or nothing approach".
You can play and enjoy the game without having really high dps or doing trifectas and such. Most of us do. It's like that with any other game, thousands of people enjoy games like Counter-Strike even though they know they will never be on the level of esports CS players. I personally don't play most single-player games on higher difficulties, but I still enjoy them even though I am missing a few achievements.

Even at my best and using the same exact setup as the builds you depicted I haven't been able to achieve that DPS and none of my friends who tried the same thing were able to reach those numbers as well so while that's good for a few people, that's a garbage example like most of the "build videos" we've tried from multiple content creators. Either their numbers are off, they're just that much better or maybe a bit of both. Mind you I'm talking about HA 1B Sorc and a couple other 1b, 2b builds we got interested in. Usually (as an average) our best most try hard buddy could come close but usually at least 20k less than most of the content claiming 100k+ DPS builds. I took a break not too long after arcanist released but regardless - even using a meta build I seem to sit at max maybe 60k? My arcanist is probably my most playable character at the moment and she sits at 40-50k which seems to be where my DPS caps in most cases at least outside of when plaguebreak was causing crazy burst DPS before it got turned off for PvE.

The reason I posted this video was to prove that arcanist's dps ceiling didn't really change all that much. It wasn't a giant devastating nerf like those 30% nerfs of the past. It's very likely that your character won't feel that nerf at all. If you're on pc, you can download combat metrics and look at how much damage your beam does - I bet that 7% of that is not going to make or break your build.
Perhaps for you the 1 bar Oakensoul version of stamina arcanist build would work better?

Either way Princess another person pointed out that ZOS has intentions going forward or making for more IPS/APS intense combat as a Philosophy going forward. That's not going to work for me in the long term.

They just don't want people in the endgame to rely on "cheese" strategies. If you take a look at https://www.esologs.com/, you will see that most trial groups are full of arcanists because it's the easiest class with very high survivability. They just want to make it less of a clear favorite.
If they wanted more intense playstyles to be the most effective, nbs and necros would be on top, not arcanists.

Also just to reiterate, advocating for disabled people is different from advocating for all disabled people or trying to speak for all disabled people. It's hard to see your arguments as anything other than another an attempt to trivialize my position or points.

I am not trivializing your position and struggles. I am just saying that some of your arguments are based off of incorrect assumptions. This, in particular:
"So we lost HA builds, most one bar builds aren't viable for trials and the like anymore and arcanist (a disabled friendly class) is getting significant nerfs"
This is completely untrue. I do trials and usually there is one or more HA/1 bar player in every guild run.
That is my point - the crazy good performance requriements only apply to less than 1% of things you can do in this game. The rest can be done with moderate dps.There are discords that allow people with 50-60k dps in training trials. It is only a problem in hardmodes and such. Yes, you won't get speedruns and such but keep in mind that most able-bodied players don't do extremely optimized runs, either - some don't have time for that, some want to play casually etc. So you can still find a place among mid-game crowd and enjoy the game. You old guild sounds awesome, and I am sure there are others like this, you just got to look for them.

In regards to guilds. My guild was fine and it was great. I find trolling and trash talk being a normalized thing abhorrent because it's basically just hurting other people for your own enjoyment. That said each guild has it's own motivations and culture for sure. The problem wasn't my choice in who I played this game with regularly (AKA my friends) - the problem was from outside of those people. My people actually worked to build each other up solve problems together, help other overcome content they were struggling with and we build crafted, tested builds and did a lot of fun stuff together (we even did PvP although pretty much everyone was terrible at it and it kind of pissed off the cyrodiil crowd).

TLDR though - you won. I'm gonna be quitting the game eventually because that's where the game is going. It's not for me anymore, between my health decay, some seriously awful people and the vision ZOS has for combat going forward. If you'd read my last comment then you could've saved yourself the time and torn down someone new with fake outrage and targeted harassment if that was your intention? Whatever you do try to enjoy it and I hope it entertains you.

You're accusing me and others of toxicity, yet you're asking the devs to remove the playstyles other people enjoy. That is not constructive to begin with.
And yes it really does suck to have physical limitations. And none of us is getting younger and healthier. But the life still goes on and you can find enjoyment in it. I know that, I've been depressed and desperate for many years because of my health issues and other stuff, but you cannot only focus on negatives. It sounds like you have good friends, you can find a community that will accept you and accomodate for you, and why would you care what people in endgame groups do? Because most of your complaints (like not being able to bring a HA build in a trial) mostly apply to them.

I have had CMX installed for quite a while and my lightning staff HA builds took a significant hit in their DPS with the ha changes to storm masters and the destruction staff passive effect on AOE. Don't pretend it didn't because mathematically it did and in real world gameplay it did. Those changes were made at the request of other players so I'm still not sure how that differs from what I was suggesting. Either way, STOP. As soon as my ESO+ expires I'm done. I don't really care any more.

Of course this changes had effects mathematically. That's why they were made.

Storm master required a fully optimized group composition tho, which isn't exactly casual gameplay anymore. The time of lazily cheesing trifectas is thankfully over, the devaluation of meaningful difficulties stopped.

Casual players with unoptimized build weren't affected tho and still use oakensoul with good results in all content up to vet hm trials.

You really shouldn't pretend being casual if you truly aren't.

Installing CMX doesn't make you not a casual. Crunching numbers isn't not being casual either. Wanting more information is typically a good thing right? Wanting to improve your ability to play is a good thing too. I dunno maybe casual means different things to different people. I don't dummy hump because it does nothing for me. I'm not going to develop muscle memory because my body operates at inconsistent levels - some days my hands are totally numb and clumsy claws, some days they're not so bad. I installed CMX so I had a way to roughly compare what worked better for me than other things and mainly as a way to try and improve my abilities. I don't think that eliminates me as a casual player. I've never done a trifecta, don't really care about leaderboards (ok would LOVE to get on one for the self achievement but realistically never gonna happen), and the only thing I'm really interested trials for is access to sets I would like to try (same with PvP which is about all I'm there for when I've done it and to be fair it probably sucks for my teammates when I'm there.)

What's a casual by your definition?

The current iteration of lightning HA does up to 100k dps while giving you a tank's resistances, a good portion of health and the ability to use defensive skills (for the cost of a few dps). The resource management minigame during combat isn't longer of major importance as well.

All of the gear used by this build is easily aquireable outside veteran content and trials.

So, do you really want to tell me, you aren't capable of successfully completing trials in normal mode (for the sake of farming gear not needed for this build)?

If so, then it's definitely not due to the nerfs to storm master and changes to lightning passives, which were made to prevent further trifecta-runs with exactly that build. I assure you that much.

Going up to 100k DPS in it's current state is meaningless - I wasn't able to reach 100k BEFORE the nerfs when managing SM was much easier.

I'm absolutely positive you're right. But it's also just as probable that a player without some of the disabilities or physical/mental/visual limitations players have can also reach even higher numbers with 2 bar or weaving builds on any class.

We're not talking about maximums potential we're talking about realistic performance for people facing challenges that impair basic gameplay components. The pre-nerf usability of SM and HA was a lot easier to use (for me at least).

I realize that endgame players can use anything easy to cheese endgame content other players sweat and push hard for. I'll even admit I don't have an answer for that. That said the hard feelings from these changes are at least partially from the "endgame players mad that other endgame players are using these things to cheese content but it's the bottom of the stack using those things harmed most". Those endgame players cheesing the content just go back to whatever they were using before they started cheesing. Those of us using those builds to gain basic entry into content otherwise out of reach on our own lose said access.

The "on our own" component does matter. I'm not speaking for everyone here I'm sure I was a guy who's been messed up for 15 years now but WAS a successful person, independent and capable of pretty much accomplishing what I set my mind to if I was willing to put in the work. This is a game. It's meant to entertain and help you maybe feel a little better about yourself when you're playing it. Disabled people typically HAVE to rely on a lot of carries from those around us in real life.

When we have to rely on that dependency some of us feel things like guilt, worthlessness, shame, etc. Being able to go into that content without some very kind endgame capable players has a different impact and even if there's more frustration there because it's challenging there's not the sense that you're just baggage being carried around places. It devalues the experience and that psychological component is important - especially to folks like me who play games in general as a way to manage my condition. Either way it's a game and they're supposed to be fun, a form of entertainment and give us respite from whatever is going on in our lives.

Just a question to you endgamers who pushed for the nerf on these sets... If instead the trifecta, etc and were limit locked, excluding specific sets or play styles by checking your gear and disqualifying those things to endgamers using these cheese tricks would that have satisfied you?

It sounds like to at least some people that it wasn't about disabled players or the sets but your peers using these sets to do things you did alongside them but they did without the skill you worked for and felt proud of accomplishing?

nokturnihs

Sync01 wrote: »

ESO is not a single player game and can't have players choosing different difficulties. Yes, you can for example choose to do a trial on normal, but that normal will be the same for all players.

Games also need to have a skill progression, and in any mmo the time you need to invest to get from a decent player to a great player is going to be massive. Most players can't do the hardest content in the game, regardless if they have a disability or not, because it requires skill developed over time.

Every single person I know that has all or most trifectas have spent years getting them and groups typically spend months getting a hm clear or a trifecta depending on the skill level of the group, and of course what trial it is. For example, Rockgrove HM is in a different realm than Asylum HM and ties back into skill progression. It's just not realistic to demand that everyone should be able to do everything, especially in an mmo.

You can do most content with a HA build in its current form, including several trifectas, because the dps requirements are honestly quite low for the older trials. That may not mean that you can do those trifectas because there is more to trials than standing in one spot and doing damage.

Part of skill progression is understanding game mechanics. Most new players understand few mechanics and as they play they begin to develop that understanding. Then maybe they start understanding boss or dungeon mechanics (not necessarily in that order). All of that's fine. And you pointed out some older trials are probably fine for some players.

But there IS a difference between skill progression and physical training. For example: global cooldown is 0.5 seconds for light attacks and 1.0 seconds for every other skill activation. A HA has a cast time of 2 seconds. For those people capable of clicking a button every half second - the same button or multiple buttons, that's fine. But when you're physically incapable of pressing ANY button every half second (maybe you can only do it once a second or whatever) - people just aren't capable of progressing that portion of gameplay. Sometimes it's not a matter of speed but moving across the piano of keys (shaking hands, etc). That blocks any progression there.

Yes every game has skill progression. As an aside the "understanding mechanics" portion of ESO is rather woeful because for some reason ZOS doesn't want to provide clear definitions in the UI on which skills are effected and defined by what (look at shock staff heavy attacks as an example that change what's effected depending on the tick). My able-bodied friends who tried this game and abandoned it at around level 30 or lower left in part because of this confusion. So part of the skill progression because of that deficiency in the UI is learning (usually through trial and error, testing) those interactions.

As far as your choosing difficulties statement I disagree. It works fine in many competing titles and they're all multiplayer. Diablo 4, outsiders, etc. on the backend it's already mostly done (adjusting mobs to be your level or be your level+vet changes, HM modifiers, etc) - even the loot tweaks these games implement (better loot at higher difficulties, expanded loot tables, etc) are already done. The only things needed would be instance management on the servers and expanding those modifiers to new lower (and higher) numbers to allow for a more enjoyable experience for a wider range of players. You said yourself it's a multiplayer game. Catering to a rather limited range of players hinders player growth. Scaling difficulty in this manner helps players of all kinds. Especially when you have those amazing players who've done everything, got their trifecta and whatever in the hardest content in the game. It would revitalize their gameplay experience if suddenly they could scale up their difficulty level by X, giving them more tiers of stuff to conquer. For those players that struggle lowering the bar to just do the content and have that experience (even if it's less rewarding in gear, items, XP) is still giving them the experience.

I'd also like to point out it's a STORY driven MMORPG. It's not an open sandbox, minimal narrative experience. So when players can't engage the story portions of that more challenging gameplay that's diminishing their value as a player experience as well. I don't think people would be able to get behind the position of "well you can watch episodes 1-8, 11 & 12 but you're not a good enough watcher to get episodes 9 & 10" which is kinda what's going on when you talk about difficulty scaling.

I think story mode on dungeons, trials would be great and I feel like the "it's hard, don't expect it soon" is probably a bit of an exaggeration unless the hard part is convincing executives to fund the implementation.

Braffin

@nokturnihs I don't think anyone calling for nerfs to lightning HA did so because they intended to make lives harder for disabled players. So no, this was never about disabilities.

It was about balance. Lightning HA builds caused an immense power-creep for player characters while the content itself still was the same as before, thus trivializing the whole game even further. More people than ever before burned through content instead of playing the mechanics as intended, just because it was possible. After they did so a few times, they lost interest in said content rather quick, leaving it factically abandoned after short time. That's not healthy for the game.

I agree with you, that eso could be more inclusive, that's why I support story mode dungeons for example (not for cheesing transmutes tho) and wouldn't mind a similar solution for trials.

But nerfing this game's content all across the board by firing up obscene power creep isn't the way to solve the issues at hand. Because that helps nobody but damages the game as a whole.

On a sidenote: If you don't reach around 80k dps by simply pressing LMB continuously against a raiddummy, your build doesn't match the one you're trying to copy. For example it's a major fail to use Storm Master in any scenario outside of optimized (= individually adjusted to each other, pen reached, buffs present, etc) raidgroups. It will cause a significant drop in dps compared to other options like Noble Duelist for example. You can check the exact difference by using both setups against a 3/6m dummy (those aren't debuffed) and comparing them in cmx (which you are already using, if I remember correctly).

J18696

I was not even aware people still used storm master on heavy builds everyone I know who do replaced it with relequen

nokturnihs

J18696 wrote: »

I was not even aware people still used storm master on heavy builds everyone I know who do replaced it with relequen

I don't have enough pieces of relequen to use it. Whenever I ran it (normal) I wasn't getting the drops and the people who had ran it tons of times would break it down before I could get it from them.

nokturnihs

Braffin wrote: »

@nokturnihs I don't think anyone calling for nerfs to lightning HA did so because they intended to make lives harder for disabled players. So no, this was never about disabilities.

It was about balance. Lightning HA builds caused an immense power-creep for player characters while the content itself still was the same as before, thus trivializing the whole game even further. More people than ever before burned through content instead of playing the mechanics as intended, just because it was possible. After they did so a few times, they lost interest in said content rather quick, leaving it factically abandoned after short time. That's not healthy for the game.

I agree with you, that eso could be more inclusive, that's why I support story mode dungeons for example (not for cheesing transmutes tho) and wouldn't mind a similar solution for trials.

But nerfing this game's content all across the board by firing up obscene power creep isn't the way to solve the issues at hand. Because that helps nobody but damages the game as a whole.

On a sidenote: If you don't reach around 80k dps by simply pressing LMB continuously against a raiddummy, your build doesn't match the one you're trying to copy. For example it's a major fail to use Storm Master in any scenario outside of optimized (= individually adjusted to each other, pen reached, buffs present, etc) raidgroups. It will cause a significant drop in dps compared to other options like Noble Duelist for example. You can check the exact difference by using both setups against a 3/6m dummy (those aren't debuffed) and comparing them in cmx (which you are already using, if I remember correctly).

Storm master pre-nerf with undaunted infiltrator/unweaver was what I used because keeping the stacks up on Sergeant mail was harder for me to do and noble duelist offered about the same amount of bonus as the undaunted sets did and I would have to proc it anyway using a skill. It was a matter of maintaining the buff. Now storm masters is probably harder to keep up than mail. Have I mentioned I have coordination issues? I lose lock on targets pretty easily due to the missing target lock on controller, which is the only way I can potentially play ANY of these games (hands can't do WASD anymore).

From what i understand keyboard mouse has target lock?

nokturnihs

Braffin wrote: »

@nokturnihs I don't think anyone calling for nerfs to lightning HA did so because they intended to make lives harder for disabled players. So no, this was never about disabilities.

It was about balance. Lightning HA builds caused an immense power-creep for player characters while the content itself still was the same as before, thus trivializing the whole game even further. More people than ever before burned through content instead of playing the mechanics as intended, just because it was possible. After they did so a few times, they lost interest in said content rather quick, leaving it factically abandoned after short time. That's not healthy for the game.

I agree with you, that eso could be more inclusive, that's why I support story mode dungeons for example (not for cheesing transmutes tho) and wouldn't mind a similar solution for trials.

But nerfing this game's content all across the board by firing up obscene power creep isn't the way to solve the issues at hand. Because that helps nobody but damages the game as a whole.

On a sidenote: If you don't reach around 80k dps by simply pressing LMB continuously against a raiddummy, your build doesn't match the one you're trying to copy. For example it's a major fail to use Storm Master in any scenario outside of optimized (= individually adjusted to each other, pen reached, buffs present, etc) raidgroups. It will cause a significant drop in dps compared to other options like Noble Duelist for example. You can check the exact difference by using both setups against a 3/6m dummy (those aren't debuffed) and comparing them in cmx (which you are already using, if I remember correctly).

Also I wasn't trying to match most of those old HA builds, just parallel as best I could. I matched them exactly at first, tried them out a while, found out some of the things weren't gonna work well, adjusted as necessary.

Ph1p

nokturnihs wrote: »

I lose lock on targets pretty easily due to the missing target lock on controller, which is the only way I can potentially play ANY of these games (hands can't do WASD anymore).

From what i understand keyboard mouse has target lock?

On controller, the standard keybind to cycle through and lock on to targets is holding the right stick, I think. You still need to roughly look in the enemy's direction for it to work, but it doesn't have to be exactly in the crosshairs.

J18696

nokturnihs wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

@nokturnihs I don't think anyone calling for nerfs to lightning HA did so because they intended to make lives harder for disabled players. So no, this was never about disabilities.

It was about balance. Lightning HA builds caused an immense power-creep for player characters while the content itself still was the same as before, thus trivializing the whole game even further. More people than ever before burned through content instead of playing the mechanics as intended, just because it was possible. After they did so a few times, they lost interest in said content rather quick, leaving it factically abandoned after short time. That's not healthy for the game.

I agree with you, that eso could be more inclusive, that's why I support story mode dungeons for example (not for cheesing transmutes tho) and wouldn't mind a similar solution for trials.

But nerfing this game's content all across the board by firing up obscene power creep isn't the way to solve the issues at hand. Because that helps nobody but damages the game as a whole.

On a sidenote: If you don't reach around 80k dps by simply pressing LMB continuously against a raiddummy, your build doesn't match the one you're trying to copy. For example it's a major fail to use Storm Master in any scenario outside of optimized (= individually adjusted to each other, pen reached, buffs present, etc) raidgroups. It will cause a significant drop in dps compared to other options like Noble Duelist for example. You can check the exact difference by using both setups against a 3/6m dummy (those aren't debuffed) and comparing them in cmx (which you are already using, if I remember correctly).

Storm master pre-nerf with undaunted infiltrator/unweaver was what I used because keeping the stacks up on Sergeant mail was harder for me to do and noble duelist offered about the same amount of bonus as the undaunted sets did and I would have to proc it anyway using a skill. It was a matter of maintaining the buff. Now storm masters is probably harder to keep up than mail. Have I mentioned I have coordination issues? I lose lock on targets pretty easily due to the missing target lock on controller, which is the only way I can potentially play ANY of these games (hands can't do WASD anymore).

From what i understand keyboard mouse has target lock?

Controller does have the tab target feature keyboard and mouse has press in the right joystick on xbox controller not sure if it's the same for playstation

LunaFlora

J18696 wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

@nokturnihs I don't think anyone calling for nerfs to lightning HA did so because they intended to make lives harder for disabled players. So no, this was never about disabilities.

It was about balance. Lightning HA builds caused an immense power-creep for player characters while the content itself still was the same as before, thus trivializing the whole game even further. More people than ever before burned through content instead of playing the mechanics as intended, just because it was possible. After they did so a few times, they lost interest in said content rather quick, leaving it factically abandoned after short time. That's not healthy for the game.

I agree with you, that eso could be more inclusive, that's why I support story mode dungeons for example (not for cheesing transmutes tho) and wouldn't mind a similar solution for trials.

But nerfing this game's content all across the board by firing up obscene power creep isn't the way to solve the issues at hand. Because that helps nobody but damages the game as a whole.

On a sidenote: If you don't reach around 80k dps by simply pressing LMB continuously against a raiddummy, your build doesn't match the one you're trying to copy. For example it's a major fail to use Storm Master in any scenario outside of optimized (= individually adjusted to each other, pen reached, buffs present, etc) raidgroups. It will cause a significant drop in dps compared to other options like Noble Duelist for example. You can check the exact difference by using both setups against a 3/6m dummy (those aren't debuffed) and comparing them in cmx (which you are already using, if I remember correctly).

Storm master pre-nerf with undaunted infiltrator/unweaver was what I used because keeping the stacks up on Sergeant mail was harder for me to do and noble duelist offered about the same amount of bonus as the undaunted sets did and I would have to proc it anyway using a skill. It was a matter of maintaining the buff. Now storm masters is probably harder to keep up than mail. Have I mentioned I have coordination issues? I lose lock on targets pretty easily due to the missing target lock on controller, which is the only way I can potentially play ANY of these games (hands can't do WASD anymore).

From what i understand keyboard mouse has target lock?

Controller does have the tab target feature keyboard and mouse has press in the right joystick on xbox controller not sure if it's the same for playstation

yea on PlayStation the default is the right stick, R3.
though there are 3 different control templates

Daoin

hi, i have a few conditions which mean i dont react well socially sometimes. my response over the years has been to realize eventually you will be around and meet others that you actaully enjoy gaming with no matter what the situation in eso i can just cut out the trifectas for a first step as it gets on my nerves repetative play if one falls into my lap then great, but as far as i can see all content upto HM in dungeons (challenger) and vet trials is pretty much doable right now for the disabled too and after the the update lets hope scribing add value to our gametime also.. its like pvp is not for everyone and so completion of the achievment points for eso will likely never be done for the majority of people and completionists alike just something thats fact now

Dragonredux

Every time these kind of posts come up I just want to sarcastically go we can go back to pre u35 where HA builds had to

1) Find an Empower source which was 20% at the time.
2) Use the maelstrom staff to boost your damage (it was changed). Recast it wall of elements when enemies ran out of it.
3) Actually use abilities for damage.

And at the all end of it all. You had damage that was passable for vet dungeons.

If HA builds are unviable for hm trials I can live with that considering all other stuff I can do now with it are Arc 5+ IA runs, vet arenas, and vet hm dungeons. All while not having to worry about maintaining sustain, various dps buffs like Brutality, Savagery, Force, etc. You are also tanky with permanent Minor Aegis, Minor Protection, and Major Resolve. You don't even need to be a sorc for this.

Please just play the game and stop complaining about non issues. It is making HA users look worse.

MudcrabAttack

I miss the old 1 bar AOE heavy attack damage, but I remember after finishing some 2-hour long trial marathons that part of my hand above the index finger would have some pain from applying constant pressure on the left mouse button

With Arcanist there’s a repeated 5 second span where you don’t even use a muscle, and I adapted to landing just one light attack in front of each fatecarver beam. The result is fewer actions per minute than even my old heavy attack builds, and zero pain. Even after hours of progging a trial. The nerf isn’t going to impact much of anything because azureblight will continue demolishing everything. We’re progging HM VDSR twins now and azureblight is about equal to the damage of the beam itself. A 7% nerf to the beam is like 2-3% to overall damage. Nothing like the way lightning AOE got hammered

festegios

Oakensorcs where far too strong, there’s no way that they should been able to play at the same level as people who use a ‘full’ build.

It actually devalued a lot of achievements.

You can still use HA builds, they just require a little more effort and don’t fully carry a group through some trifectas

nokturnihs

When I read some comments here I wonder if the people commenting read the whole thread, just the title or skimmed the OP... This pondering is NOT limited to this discussion btw.

Lalothen

Intead of removing the aoe damage completely from the tics of the lightning channel, ZOS could've reduced the splash damage from trifocus down to 25/50% from 50/100%. This would've resulted in a similar overall reduction in lightning HA AoE output whilst not being so enormously frustrating for players for whom one-bar oaken HA builds are pretty much their only viable gateway into tougher content. ZOS didn't listen of course, so we're left with a situation where lightning HAs don't even proc their AoE component a significant amount of the time because targeted mobs die before the fully-charged tic. It's incredibly frustrating in all forms of content, AND causes regular HA glitches where follow-up HAs stutter or don't fire at all.

festegios wrote: »

Oakensorcs where far too strong, there’s no way that they should been able to play at the same level as people who use a ‘full’ build.

The power of Oakensorc should not have been used as a benchmark for nerfing HA builds in such wholesale fashion. ZOS should've looked at WHY Oakensorc had a significant edge over other classes utilising HA builds, and adjusted accordingly (which is exactly what they did when DKs were the best for HA builds because of their unique 50% HA buff from Molten). The simple fact is that sorc's toolkit synergises too well with Oakensoul HA builds, especially using two pets which are constantly doing damage passively, one of which you only need to activate every 20s for additional AoE, with the other - Matriarch - offering an insane two-person burst heal which, when combined with all of the defensive buffs of Oakensoul along with the extra HP offered by Sergeant's Mail & resist pots (which give 45s unique +5280 physical & spell resist buffs), significantly trivialised huge swathes of content.

They could have approached the issue differently - stripped out some of the defensive buffs from Oakensoul, removed the extra target from the Matriarch heal, changed resist pots to grant major resolve, etc - but instead they chose to slap down all HA builds because they were releasing Arcanist and wanted folk paying for a brand spanking new low APM class that essentially combines all of the elements of HA builds that have made them so appealing, only better.

NyassaV

At the end of the day builds for people who struggle to weave or have disabilities can still clear content. As long as you can clear content then there isn't a problem.

Major_Toughness

There is a video on YouTube of a guy doing 81k DPS as an Arcanist using his feet.

So if double amputees using two skills (albeit meta sets) have enough DPS to clear all content, then accessibility is fine.

LunaFlora

Major_Toughness wrote: »

There is a video on YouTube of a guy doing 81k DPS as an Arcanist using his feet.

So if double amputees using two skills (albeit meta sets) have enough DPS to clear all content, then accessibility is fine.

Good for him!
that however does not mean every disabled person can do the same.

edit to add:
Accessibility isn't fine just because some disabled people can do 81k dps and clear all content.

Lalothen

Major_Toughness wrote: »

There is a video on YouTube of a guy doing 81k DPS as an Arcanist using his feet.

So if double amputees using two skills (albeit meta sets) have enough DPS to clear all content, then accessibility is fine.

*so long as you play Arcanist.

Someone using one class with a lot of ST & AOE dps loaded into a couple of skills - along with a bunch of offensive, defensive and resource management passives that further ease gameplay - doesn't equate to accessibility being "fine".

Just as Oakensorc should never have been used as a benchmark for adjusting the effectiveness of HA builds, neither should the Arcanist be used as the benchmark for determining how accessible the game is. In fact, it's no less patronising to say "well you can just play Arcanist" as it is to say "well you can just do normal mode group content", or "you can just be satisfied without those achievements". Nobody else gets to tell me what I should be satisfied with when it comes to the product I'm paying for, and personally I'm rather tired of what I view as a casually discriminatory culture here, where players feel they can do exactly that.

The vast majority of lesser abled players have already had to accept in various ways that we're not going to ever match the top tier of players - nor do we wish or demand to (well, I can't speak for everyone) - and that in order to even get into the top 40-50% of players we have to work that much harder finding ways of compensating for our disabilities, and essentially resign ourselves to a much narrower band of classes and builds than fully abled players can use effectively.

Oakensoul HA builds at the very least worked for every class. They still do after a fashion, but the gameplay is far, far more frustrating than it was - and unnecessarily so given there are different methods of achieving what the devs wanted to do without having a significant impact on players for whom HA builds were their best opportunity to do tougher content without being pigeonholed into one class. This has left the game less accessible than it was.

Drako_Ei

I tested my old heavy attack sorc build and it can do 90k in dummy.

Yesterday I soloed veteran scalecaller peak on hard mode (Using undo to break free from zaan) using a heavy attack sorc, and it was easy.


They are viable, they are fine, they are just not the best, and that is okay.