The burst heal from Sorcerer's Conjured Ward and its morphs needs to be value capped

Vaqual · February 2

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

I just dont understand why this Long overdue improvement to magsorc should be butchered while Arcanist can Hit 2.4.0.K shield on pts.
Every other aspect of sorc kit issues went almost untouched eg CF travel time, no access to major savagery, bar space in general, ramping Streak cost....the list goes on.

Improvements can be made without making the skill too strong. Don't forget Sorc just got 3 buffs to survivability and damage:

1) 10% max stam and max mag

This is a huge damage and defense buff. This passive alone adds 4k magicka to your 40k max mag build, making your shield and damage better. If you're a stamsorc and you run Dragon's Appetite, then you can literally get tooltips like this without sacrificing much:

This buff also means using Sugar Skull food is more valuable too. It might be the go to food for Sorc next patch compared to Orzoga.

2) Encase - an AoE burst heal with 10k+ tooltips that also applies AoE Major Maim

This is essentially a true burst heal that puts stamsorc on par with other brawler classes in terms of survivability. Major Maim is a really strong mitigation debuff and combined with the heal being instant cast, stamsorc's strong offensive heals, stamsorc will be really tanky next patch.

3) Hardened Ward and burst heal

This buff is what I will mainly address. The heal is fine if your max magicka is around 40k on the live server, as it would only add 4k to your max mag and won't make the heal too strong. HOWEVER, the problem arises when you start stacking max mag. The 10% max mag and stam passive allows you to reach 55k max mag really easily. I can get to 50k max mag with just Crafty/Rallying Cry. My shield value would be ~13.3k and my heal tooltip would be ~8k. It's TOO strong. Even with Encase, my highest tooltip achieved without being near a keep was 10.5k.

Just compare that for a second. It's just 2.5k lower, but it has a 13k+ shield attached to it. I can use Hardened Ward as an actual burst heal and block cast it lol. It would be equivalent to Healthy Offering getting a 7-8k shield on top. There definitely needs to be a cap to how much you can get the heal to imo.

Healthy Offering kinda does have a 7-8k shield on top of it though, it’s just called Cloak.

Okay that’s 2 abilities vs 1 lol. And if you want to compare it like that then Streak + Hardened Ward on PTS are better than Cloak + Healthy Offering

Maybe, I want to see actual gameplay against groups, not tooltips.

Streak has a ramping cost, Cloak doesn’t. Cloak stops all incoming damage outside of AOE, Streak doesn’t.

I’m a sorc main. Against groups I’m already doing fine with high mobility. I’m telling you right now the shield change will make sorc one of the tankiest classes in the game.

@StaticWave

I'm catching up on multiple posts and touching on this one. These changes are for all players of different skill levels and playstyles. People are already commenting that in their testing on pts that the change feels fair currently.

Are you accounting for how others that don't want to push the max night want to play? For instance I don't use a max mag spec in the same way you do so for me the heal will be very useful but definitely not make me op by any means. So have you considered that yes some skilled players will do interesting things with this but that average or sub average players will just get to enjoy the game?

This isn't like NB or Arcanist where a very simple build nets you a character with high damage and superior evasion or huge mitigation and an easy combo.

I'm not saying you're wrong exactly but just asking if you've thought out how the change effects everyone and not just specific scenarios?

But these people wont be affected by the cap then?
He just wants the change to be sustainable, that makes sense. Cheese builds are fun for like 3 days, then months of suffering lie ahead.

Well if players in general wouldn't be affected by the cap and only a lesser number of the population can make use of it then why even add one? I mean to me that sounds like someone could stand out if they had the exceptional skill which I'm perfectly ol with.

Caps and things like that should be used in cases where the majority would be too powerful such as Arcanist shield, masters de, etc. But if we're talking about a niche build that a very skilled player can run then I say sure.

Also we are in an environment where so many have high power levels easily that I don't see why we need to limit even the potential that a few sorcs might stand out.

No I don't think the majority should be considered at all. The boundaries should always be the mathematically optimal performances (more difficult for utility skills, but pretty clear for heal/dps). If players are unable to bring the necessary skill that is 100 % on them, and at the same time, I don't think building for cheese is exceptional skill. Releasing something that can be abused/cheesed just invites nerfs long term, and we have seen how poorly those can go. Aiming for good balance early is just pragmatic. This can get tricky once a change is generally accepted and contributing to the overall class power budget, because people thend to set their priorities differently.
I am not trying to blow this out of proportion, but I completely get the concern.

I wouldn't say this would be building for cheese. It's not easy at all to run this kind of build. Watch most sorcs right now and they will show that it's hard to run this kind of build on live and you can easily get killed.

But ok throw that to the side for a second. How is anyone able to make any reasonable determination on what effect this will really have being that they are also making changes to things that can effect shields and changing the damage of status effects.

We can say on paper this is what this possibly cheese build could look like but there's no way to say how effective it would be without knowing what the player base will do to the other changes. Just seems like preparing for something to be bad on the chance that it might be viable to some particular group of players. I'm not against reasonable ideas but this is just more conjecture before the thing even happens.

All I can say to that is that the arguments have been laid out in this thread and Statics points have been convincing to me. It's a mostly non-invasive safety brake. I think it is possible for an experienced player to make a good prognosis and I would count him among the last to be biased about this.

jaws343 · February 2

I think one thing that is being overlooked in all of this is Major/Minor Vitality and Defile.

Sorcs don't have native access to Major Vitality. And to get Minor Vitality in class, they have to use a nearly 5K costing heal with the changes to Encase. So, back to needing to slot two skills to boost effectiveness of shields and healing.

Meanwhile, without those two buffs active in the toolkit, and with Major Defile being fairly prevalent and Disease status effect applying Minor defile in aoe, Sorc shields and healing are pretty much at a 12-18% reduction in power.

Unless a sorc is maintaining Vitality buffs somehow, their shields are effectively at a disadvantaged due to the change in how defile works.

Bushido2513 · February 2

jaws343 wrote: »

I think one thing that is being overlooked in all of this is Major/Minor Vitality and Defile.

Sorcs don't have native access to Major Vitality. And to get Minor Vitality in class, they have to use a nearly 5K costing heal with the changes to Encase. So, back to needing to slot two skills to boost effectiveness of shields and healing.

Meanwhile, without those two buffs active in the toolkit, and with Major Defile being fairly prevalent and Disease status effect applying Minor defile in aoe, Sorc shields and healing are pretty much at a 12-18% reduction in power.

Unless a sorc is maintaining Vitality buffs somehow, their shields are effectively at a disadvantaged due to the change in how defile works.

Thanks that's one of the things I was trying to get across but you did a much better job of explaining it clearly.

Turtle_Bot · February 2

jaws343 wrote: »

I think one thing that is being overlooked in all of this is Major/Minor Vitality and Defile.

Sorcs don't have native access to Major Vitality. And to get Minor Vitality in class, they have to use a nearly 5K costing heal with the changes to Encase. So, back to needing to slot two skills to boost effectiveness of shields and healing.

Meanwhile, without those two buffs active in the toolkit, and with Major Defile being fairly prevalent and Disease status effect applying Minor defile in aoe, Sorc shields and healing are pretty much at a 12-18% reduction in power.

Unless a sorc is maintaining Vitality buffs somehow, their shields are effectively at a disadvantaged due to the change in how defile works.

This is why I noted in my examples that I had vitality active and no defile to achieve my values. It was quite literally a best case scenario (all buffs active, no debuffs present) to get those heal + shield values.

I understand where static is coming from, but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes, hence why if any change is to be done at all, it has to be very small changes and preferably limited to these niche builds.

Also, the vast majority of people won't run this build, they love using procs far too much to ever give them up, even if it would mean having such large wards.

J18696 · February 2

What if they just made the ward heal unable to crit? Not a sorc main I barely ever play it but just a suggestion

caperon · February 2

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes

Should then streak be removed to put mobility more in line with other classes?

Bushido2513 · February 3

caperon wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes

Should then streak be removed to put mobility more in line with other classes?

This has already been done with all of the available movement speed in the game. At this point it's fairly easy to catch a sorc. I should know, I get chased at some point nearly every time I log in and players aren't shy at all about their ability to keep up with me.

Mind you streak still works very well. I'm just saying it's easy countered if any class even remotely wants to build into the freely available movement speed in the game.

Twohothardware · February 3

caperon wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes

Should then streak be removed to put mobility more in line with other classes?

Every class but Necro has an out of line skill. Nighblade Cloak, DK Corrosive armor, Arcanist Flail, Wardens Polar Wind, Templars Radiant Destruction they’re all better than options on the other classes.

caperon · February 3

Twohothardware wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes

Should then streak be removed to put mobility more in line with other classes?

Every class has an out of line skill. Nighblade Cloak, DK Corrosive armor, Arcanist Flail, Wardens Polar Wind, and Templars Radiant Destruction all are superior to what’s on the other classes.

Skills that make the class strong in something to compensate being weak in others (other than arcanist). Remove beam from templar, does it have mobility? And you are comparing ultimates with regular skills...

Bushido2513 wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes

Should then streak be removed to put mobility more in line with other classes?

This has already been done with all of the available movement speed in the game. At this point it's fairly easy to catch a sorc. I should know, I get chased at some point nearly every time I log in and players aren't shy at all about their ability to keep up with me.

Mind you streak still works very well. I'm just saying it's easy countered if any class even remotely wants to build into the freely available movement speed in the game.

And what about the oportunity cost? It is not free to counter streak, much more expensive than 1 skill slot. With your reasoning: slot resto staf and no more heals needed, slot 1hand and shield or frost staff and no more defensive skill needed.

Bushido2513 · February 3

caperon wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes

Should then streak be removed to put mobility more in line with other classes?

Every class has an out of line skill. Nighblade Cloak, DK Corrosive armor, Arcanist Flail, Wardens Polar Wind, and Templars Radiant Destruction all are superior to what’s on the other classes.

Skills that make the class strong in something to compensate being weak in others (other than arcanist). Remove beam from templar, does it have mobility? And you are comparing ultimates with regular skills...

Bushido2513 wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes

Should then streak be removed to put mobility more in line with other classes?

This has already been done with all of the available movement speed in the game. At this point it's fairly easy to catch a sorc. I should know, I get chased at some point nearly every time I log in and players aren't shy at all about their ability to keep up with me.

Mind you streak still works very well. I'm just saying it's easy countered if any class even remotely wants to build into the freely available movement speed in the game.

And what about the oportunity cost? It is not free to counter streak, much more expensive than 1 skill slot. With your reasoning: slot resto staf and no more heals needed, slot 1hand and shield or frost staff and no more defensive skill needed.

So for sorc it's a larger damage loss to build in more speed. Most of the other classes don't have this issue. NB and warden get it for free, DK has more than enough damage to give up overall so it wouldn't really feel the loss as much. With sorc everything is tight so you can give up damage for speed but so many things about the build suffer.

I and other sorcs make do but we have some of the worst bar space issues in the game compared to the other classes so the opportunity costs you bring up are unfortunately overall much larger for sorc.

And just to be clear I'm speaking from experience of being chased down many a time by other classes that still manage to have amazing damage, nb is the easiest one to point to but others can do the same. I've managed to strike a balance that's playable for me at the moment but far from optimal when compared to what other classes can easily do because they are just better optimized.

And yes to be clear I've tried the scenarios you suggested and I can only say that anything is playable if you want it it to be but those options all still easily end up showing how outclassed sorc is by most other classes at the moment and streak is definitely not a great equalizer though certainly very useful depending on the situation.

Turtle_Bot · February 3

caperon wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but sorcs actual defense (not just running away) has been extremely horrible for far too long now and these changes are a good step in the right direction to bringing them more in line with other classes

Should then streak be removed to put mobility more in line with other classes?

Mobility was already given to the other classes to bring them more in line with sorcerer, PLENTY of times. This was already done multiple times via abilities like mist form and RaT and all the free/easy to obtain movement speed options that ZOS has given EVERYONE over the past few years, ranging from traits, to mythics, to CP, and other sources of movement speed.

Gap closers have also ALWAYS existed as options to counter/keep up with streak, so no, streak has always had counters for it and ZOS has given more than enough equivalent mobility abilities/effects for the other classes to keep up with streak too.

Also, you take away streak, sorc (on live servers) has literally nothing.

Take away beam from plar, it still has really good defenses, healing and cleanse.
Take away corrosive from DK, it still has insane mitigation as well as really strong damage, CC, healing and pressure
Take away cloak from NB and it still has one of the best overall kits in the entire game.

Amottica · February 3

JonnytheKing wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

i think your not seeing the big picture here, u have to give a lot up to get to 60k magic,

and others have pointed out that when effected by battle spirit the numbers for the shield and heal combined are in line with what burst heals can do.

Further, this discussion starts with an example of gearing to an extreme which has been noted that such an extreme requires giving up a lot including sustain.

StaticWave · February 3

Amottica wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Giving Conjured Ward a burst heal was a nice change but the value needs to be capped. On PTS magsorcs are stacking upwards of 60k max magicka to get an 8k heal tooltip on top of a 13k Hardened Ward size. That's too strong and singlehandedly makes it the best defensive skill in the game, even with the Minor/Major Defile change on PTS. Please consider capping the heal value to 50k max magicka.

i think your not seeing the big picture here, u have to give a lot up to get to 60k magic,

and others have pointed out that when effected by battle spirit the numbers for the shield and heal combined are in line with what burst heals can do.

Further, this discussion starts with an example of gearing to an extreme which has been noted that such an extreme requires giving up a lot including sustain.

Doesn't look like giving up much a lot to me. 4.1k spell dmg and 62k mag > 5k spell dmg and 44k mag.

StaticWave · February 3

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Looks absolutely acceptable compared to eg offering or coag but your already gimping your damage running a Max Stat Set.
To achieve higher mag you'd sacrifice even more gear traits, chc, chd, boon, racial choice, cp's.....

Cmon man healthy offering and coag don’t always crit lol… that’s such a skewed comparison. 13.6k ward at all times + a 4k heal that can potentially crit for 6.5k is already stronger than a coag.

I don’t want sorc to become another NB tank class. This change going thru will make it just that.

So I was testing a similar build on live with more armor and a 12k or so ward and of course no heal. It's not an easy build to protect yourself in so yes I think higher end players will make this change really shine, get in more 1vx, etc.

The average player will live longer and be able to have a chance to streak away and come back but won't be able to really just absolutely face tank most common pvp scenarios.

Like with one or multiple high damage builds coming at you this heal will keep you from dying but not by a degree that other classes don't currently enjoy.

In fact I might just actually survive templar execute with this but probably not any other player hitting me at the same time or dual executes. My point being that bad on my experience as a sorc main and what I see from other high and mid tier sorcs, this change would mostly just level things on average.

Also, and this is very important @StaticWave , why try to pre nerf something when other factors are changing that will affect the outcome of the change in ways we can't predict?

With the status effect changes and shield changes we can't predict what the new meta will be so why try to nerf now when what's on paper might not even be enough once all players get access and start developing build? Then what, you ask to buff the very thing you asked to be nerfed and just have to wait?

Making this change shine is an understatement. On the live server I can already survive up to 4.5 - 5k DPS with pre buff shield. The only time I die is when I get low and my HoTs aren't enough to bring me out of execute range.

This change will do just that, and it will do that in 2 GCDs when combined with my HoTs. The status effect change will impact it sure, but sorc also just got 10% more max mag. My shield will be bigger, and I can run more defensive CPs because of that change as well.

My friend runs a 25k HP, 55k max mag build on the live server and is extremely hard to kill. On the PTS server he runs in 23k HP with a 16k ward and a 10k burst heal tooltip. He said, quote un quote: "I feel invincible". Even @MetallicMonk, who most people here are probably familiar with as being one of the better magsorcs, said "the only way I could kill him is if he drops his shield and I 100-0 him, otherwise he won most of the duels we had on PTS"

The point I'm making is if a 23k HP sorc feels invincible, then a 30k HP sorc with the same shield value will feel just as invincible and be harder to kill, like what @Jsmalls showed in his screenshots and what he experienced during duels on PTS. We keep complaining about classes being too tanky, but then we ignore the changes that will make Sorc tanky.

jaws343 wrote: »

I think one thing that is being overlooked in all of this is Major/Minor Vitality and Defile.

Sorcs don't have native access to Major Vitality. And to get Minor Vitality in class, they have to use a nearly 5K costing heal with the changes to Encase. So, back to needing to slot two skills to boost effectiveness of shields and healing.

Meanwhile, without those two buffs active in the toolkit, and with Major Defile being fairly prevalent and Disease status effect applying Minor defile in aoe, Sorc shields and healing are pretty much at a 12-18% reduction in power.

Unless a sorc is maintaining Vitality buffs somehow, their shields are effectively at a disadvantaged due to the change in how defile works.

It doesn't matter that much. Major Defile is harder to get unless you use specific sets or skills, and let's be honest most people won't run those sets. Minor defile is easier to get, but once you stack enough max mag it's negligible.

StarOfElyon · February 3

I was so hyped when Hardened Ward was changed to scale with health so that my bow sorc could use it but I had to give it up because I needed a second heal (vigor alone wasn't enough). With this change, not only can I use Hardened Ward again but I get a second heal. This is all I need. I won't even be OP. I'll just be a bit better than mid.

Bushido2513 · February 3

StaticWave wrote: »

The point I'm making is if a 23k HP sorc feels invincible, then a 30k HP sorc with the same shield value will feel just as invincible and be harder to kill, like what @Jsmalls showed in his screenshots and what he experienced during duels on PTS. We keep complaining about classes being too tanky, but then we ignore the changes that will make Sorc tanky.

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

So when points are being made I relate them to the game being about small to large scale combat. The builds and info being posted to me just sounds like a fighting chance when you're being focused down.

I'll put it another way, currently Arcanist is terribly tanky, as is warden, and dk. Trying to kill one solo is pretty much a no go, even a templar or necro, same. I mean to say if they are built decently and even remotely know how to play the game.

But they still die because people just start to say hey here's that one person not dying, let's gang up as much as possible and throw a kitchen sink with whatever cheese or non cheese we have.

The same would happen to the sorc bulds being posted here. So yes in a 1v1 this would be very hard to kill but the game isn't balance around that.

Perform another test, get 3 - 5 players to bang on that same build and see how long it is before retreating is the option. That's not to say those couldn't be 5 bad players that might get xd but that can happen on Live right now as well so again, this wouldn't be unacceptable.

StaticWave · February 3

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

Bushido2513 · February 3

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

StaticWave · February 3

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

Bushido2513 · February 3

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

StaticWave · February 3

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

StaticWave · February 3

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

Bushido2513 · February 3

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

StaticWave · February 3

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

Even if you use a 1vX scenario, my statement still stands. A 13.5k ward and 4k-6.5k heal is really strong. Sorcs are already 1vXing with 11k wards and no burst heal.

So if your argument is Sorc will be on the same level as these classes with these changes, then my argument is Sorc will be better than these classes in a 1v1 and will be just as good, if not better 1vX. It’s no contest Sorc will take that place if this change goes live. I can bet on that. It will be the new NB

Bushido2513 · February 3

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

Even if you use a 1vX scenario, my statement still stands. A 13.5k ward and 4k-6.5k heal is really strong. Sorcs are already 1vXing with 11k wards and no burst heal.

So if your argument is Sorc will be on the same level as these classes with these changes, then my argument is Sorc will be better than these classes in a 1v1 and will be just as good, if not better 1vX. It’s no contest Sorc will take that place if this change goes live. I can bet on that. It will be the new NB

So I do agree that sorc can 1vx potatoes right now. What I'm saying is that this change will invite the chance that sorc can 1vx on a higher tier while not being OP. Look at any of the latest sorc 1vx content that you can find and it will be against uncoordinated, lower level opponents, that don't heal, rebuff, etc. I think if someone runs the build you're talking about they will still have to be on their game to compete at a higher level. Now yes of course they will tank and fry zerglings until said zerglings just get a big enough group or enough cheese and hey that's the way of the game.

So to be honest I may or may not even play the build you're posting. I'll give it a try but if it's not for me I'll just stay on what I'm on but my point is that I'd rather be able to try something that pushes the limits a bit more and not like it than to just have it not as an option at all.

And again if it proves to be too much they can just nerf it in a later patch and we're all good. How is that not better than just nerfing it before we see it even go live especially when there are people on both sides of the argument?

I could see if it was just me saying and agreeing with the change against a sea of voices saying no but hey put up a poll and see maybe? Because as I see it a good amount seem to be ok with this idea.

StaticWave · February 3

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

Even if you use a 1vX scenario, my statement still stands. A 13.5k ward and 4k-6.5k heal is really strong. Sorcs are already 1vXing with 11k wards and no burst heal.

So if your argument is Sorc will be on the same level as these classes with these changes, then my argument is Sorc will be better than these classes in a 1v1 and will be just as good, if not better 1vX. It’s no contest Sorc will take that place if this change goes live. I can bet on that. It will be the new NB

So I do agree that sorc can 1vx potatoes right now. What I'm saying is that this change will invite the chance that sorc can 1vx on a higher tier while not being OP. Look at any of the latest sorc 1vx content that you can find and it will be against uncoordinated, lower level opponents, that don't heal, rebuff, etc. I think if someone runs the build you're talking about they will still have to be on their game to compete at a higher level. Now yes of course they will tank and fry zerglings until said zerglings just get a big enough group or enough cheese and hey that's the way of the game.

So to be honest I may or may not even play the build you're posting. I'll give it a try but if it's not for me I'll just stay on what I'm on but my point is that I'd rather be able to try something that pushes the limits a bit more and not like it than to just have it not as an option at all.

And again if it proves to be too much they can just nerf it in a later patch and we're all good. How is that not better than just nerfing it before we see it even go live especially when there are people on both sides of the argument?

I could see if it was just me saying and agreeing with the change against a sea of voices saying no but hey put up a poll and see maybe? Because as I see it a good amount seem to be ok with this idea.

I don’t think a vote would be fair to prove the point. Out of all the people commenting in this thread, maybe 3 actually tested the shields (me, @Turtle_Bot , and @Jsmalls). 2 out of 3 agreed the burst heal is too strong and needs a cap or reworked to a HoT, and all 3 agreed it should be monitored.

The rest havent tested the shield and only heard thru other people or saw what others posted here. How would they have a fair assessment of the ability?

I strongly believe this skill will make magsorc extremely hard to kill. The only way to have a fair assessment is to have everyone download PTS and test it too. Either way, I don’t mind if the change goes live. What I’m concerned about is the history of over nerfing Sorc when something does make it to live and catches attention. We wouldn’t want that happening again.

Duke_Falcon · February 3

StaticWave wrote: »

[/quote]

StaticWave wrote: »

These 2 builds are not the same build. I'm guessing that first build is Crafty/Wretched, while that second build is Crafty/Rallying. That second build on a Dark Elf is Unsustainable, your probably setting at 1400-1600 mag & 600 stam for recoveries.

With 20k physical resistance (which is really low) on either build your Night blade Fodder especially the one with 1.7k crit resistance.

I'm thinking that 30k HP pool is with Deathdealers fully proced, without it your setting at like 27.5k which is really low.

Your still only sitting at 4k heal on that Hardened Ward on either build.

Something else to consider is a damage shield does not reduce the damage an execute skill is doing to you when your HP is low, and a 4k heal won't bring you out of execute range, so that damage shield will be getting stripped off with every execute. If a Sorc Spams Hardened Ward they can probably live, but your resources will be gone, because that's not a cheap skill compared to an execute.

Overall I'm thinking Sorc is looking fairly balanced with the other Classes, except Necro needs help and maybe Templar could use a little lovin too.

LukosCreyden · February 3

Sure hope this thread doesn't lead to the cool skill changes being butchered in the next pts patch.

Bushido2513 · February 3

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Like it doesn’t take the patch going live to know how strong a spammable 13k ward + 4k-6.5k burst heal is. Literally just put a 5k shield on a 9k spammable healthy offering and every single sorc main here will complain about it, yet when it comes to sorc getting a broken change everyone pretends it isnt lol

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So a big point right here. This game is NOT balanced around 1v1 and so it's not a valuable metric to this conversation. I'm not saying this because I care one way or the other but just because it's obvious that zos does not care about the 1v1 balance.

Sorc is already 1 of the best classes for OW, and it does it without a burst heal. It will be THE best class for OW with this change.

The 10% max mag buff on PTS is huge, and I can't stress that enough. This is my shield size and heal tooltip with 2x Swift:

This is my shield size with 2x Swift and Celerity instead of Bastion:

Still a 11.1k shield size with a 8k+ heal tooltip with +24% movement speed. Yes, I lost damage, but we're talking about OW, and 1vXing in OW doesn't need that much damage for most cases. Now add the burst heal on top and Sorc will be the best class for OW next patch.

I mean straight up it just sounds like you're talking about nb levels of defense without the amazing damage. My point is that if we already have classes doing similar things then why shouldn't sorc be able to perform at their level if they aren't going to be brought in line?

For what it's worth I do think the next set of patch notes will adjust this down. ZOS usually starts big then gives another pass based on feedback. I would just rather see it get implemented as is then get trimmed down. I know some things are just very obvious but based on my own experiences and the fact that we don't know how players will respond I'd prefer to start a little high ish and tweak from there

Just think of it this way. If they nerf it to your or anyone here's specifications and it turns out to not be good look at how long it will take us to possibly get it buffed. If we go the other way and it is too much then we get to enjoy some tanky sorc action up to an eventual buff.

Wouldn't it be better to at least start high, see it in action and then work our way down? And I don't mean that I always support this. I'm just saying it would be ok for sorc because sorc has gotten screwed in so many ways and for so long now.

Let the man go through.

Sure, I don't think I can convince you at this point so I'll just wait until patch drops.

On the live server, I've already adapted and done really well when I built for more movement speed. Damage obviously dropped slightly but I've made other adjustments to compensate for that. The only issue is of course, not having a burst heal, but now that I get 10% more max stam and mag, an AoE burst heal with minor Vit and Major Maim, or Hardened Ward with a burst heal, I'm going enjoy several months of being quite literally unkillable, at least in an OW setting. Who cares if they build for status effects lol. I can just get out of the fight at will like I do on the live server, and heal up to full with the new changes.

I don't actually think it will come to this but honestly if we get to be the Arcanist or the NB for a patch or two is that so bad?

The way I see it it's just fair for all the whispers sorc gets about having to streak / kite away or the bags that come after an overtuned class gets a kill on you as if it was a fair fight.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fights that go my way as well and I understand this change will likely bring more sorcs out up play and that it may be for better or worse. I just don't know when we'll see this again so I'd like to fully enjoy it within reason.

I can tell you right now that I'm just at the edge of ok with an 8k tooltip. I understand there will be crits and group/other buffs that can make it even bigger but those cases are what they are and not at always common.

If it were even 10k I'd probably be getting weird about it. And I mean 10k without even really trying not 10k on some build that might not be viable or that most might not survive on.

Most I'll say is that I would take a hot instead because that could be more balanced but when it comes to the high damage of this game especially when outnumbered by better players or cheese builds I'm very ok with again an 8k tooltip heal.

On the PTS I can cast Hardened Ward twice and heal for 8k-13k total with a 13.5k shield per cast. There is no way any competent magsorc will die next patch. All they gotta do is cast a couple wards like they normally do and instantly recover to full HP. You would need to literally 1 shot them when their shield is down to have any chance of killing them at all on PTS. Their only weakness was removed with the Hardened Ward change. What’s stopping them from casting 13.5k wards 4 times in a row and healed for 16k-24k HP?

It doesn’t matter if you remove their ward every second (which I doubt you could considering it’s a 13.5k ward that will get harder to remove with vamp 3 and as they heal up to full). The heal will just help them recover again, and that’s accounting for only ONE heal. I haven’t even accounted for Surge and Vigor heals lol.

I just find it ironic that Sorc mains complain so much about how Nb mains are biased, then act the same when it comes to changes that would make Sorc as tanky as NB.

Sorc never lacked damage. It’s just that their burst is telegraphed and hence avoidable. With the changes to status effects next patch, Sorcs will have access to pressure as well with a charged Asylum staff. Even the normal charged staff is super strong on PTS already. Combined with the Hardened Ward change, I don’t see how magsorc isn’t going to be top tier and possibly fotm next patch.

Honestly you keep making this into a 1v1 scenario and I admit you're quite possibly correct.

Now tell me what happens to that same sorc if an Arcanist or dk is hitting them with root and cc combo while two hard hitting nbs are coming with incaps and spec bows oh and all of them are fast enough to out pace streak

Or a sorc comes in with a negate while the dk is about to execute you with piled up damage.

I honestly stopped dueling a long time ago when it became clear ZOS didn't care about the 1v1.

I can name several scenarios that would end in the sorc you're talking about on pts either end up dead or retreating. And as we all know the game is full of players ready to get a kill by any means necessary be it cheese, ganging up with cheese, etc.

So yes in some scenarios this sorc will be op, I admit but I also believe no more so than any of the other top classes.

Ok so to your point about why I would let this go through but support NB either having a heal or cloak but not both.

The problem is that NB currently still has heal and cloak with no change in sight so yes if that's not going to happen then why wouldn't I support sorc getting the same treatment? I mean that's just leveling the playing field plain and simple.

Tell you what, they can keep the heal if they will do something about cloak with heals, Warden heal, templar auto lock on ranged execute with busted scaling, sorc bar efficiency, and the list goes on.

Oh what's that, none of that is changing? Ok well I'll take my heal and yes if it needs to be rebalanced later cool.

Also please understand that I truly don't support sorc being flavor.of the month. I like having my class to myself and that it be challenging.

I just don't see what's so scary about releasing this as is, seeing how it goes being that it's been done to sorc SEVERAL times previously with other classes gaining an overt advantage.

Even if you use a 1vX scenario, my statement still stands. A 13.5k ward and 4k-6.5k heal is really strong. Sorcs are already 1vXing with 11k wards and no burst heal.

So if your argument is Sorc will be on the same level as these classes with these changes, then my argument is Sorc will be better than these classes in a 1v1 and will be just as good, if not better 1vX. It’s no contest Sorc will take that place if this change goes live. I can bet on that. It will be the new NB

So I do agree that sorc can 1vx potatoes right now. What I'm saying is that this change will invite the chance that sorc can 1vx on a higher tier while not being OP. Look at any of the latest sorc 1vx content that you can find and it will be against uncoordinated, lower level opponents, that don't heal, rebuff, etc. I think if someone runs the build you're talking about they will still have to be on their game to compete at a higher level. Now yes of course they will tank and fry zerglings until said zerglings just get a big enough group or enough cheese and hey that's the way of the game.

So to be honest I may or may not even play the build you're posting. I'll give it a try but if it's not for me I'll just stay on what I'm on but my point is that I'd rather be able to try something that pushes the limits a bit more and not like it than to just have it not as an option at all.

And again if it proves to be too much they can just nerf it in a later patch and we're all good. How is that not better than just nerfing it before we see it even go live especially when there are people on both sides of the argument?

I could see if it was just me saying and agreeing with the change against a sea of voices saying no but hey put up a poll and see maybe? Because as I see it a good amount seem to be ok with this idea.

I don’t think a vote would be fair to prove the point. Out of all the people commenting in this thread, maybe 3 actually tested the shields (me, @Turtle_Bot , and @Jsmalls). 2 out of 3 agreed the burst heal is too strong and needs a cap or reworked to a HoT, and all 3 agreed it should be monitored.

The rest havent tested the shield and only heard thru other people or saw what others posted here. How would they have a fair assessment of the ability?

I strongly believe this skill will make magsorc extremely hard to kill. The only way to have a fair assessment is to have everyone download PTS and test it too. Either way, I don’t mind if the change goes live. What I’m concerned about is the history of over nerfing Sorc when something does make it to live and catches attention. We wouldn’t want that happening again.

Well I'm totally with you in the context of a 1v1 but that's most all I'm guessing that you or anyone else has been able to test and again not really relevant to what zos appears to care about.

At this point it's not really possible test how this will really end up looking in the intended environment of large and small scale pvp.

So my point about why it matters how people feel is that it's the only commonality that we all share. For instance if it was a 32k heal we would all obviously know it was too big. If it was a 1k heal we would all think it's not really going to help. My point is that if we know what looks like too much and we know what looks like too little then we can probably spot what feels like a good mid us.

So I understand you feel it needs a cap and what I'm saying is there are others that feel that it doesn't so if the numbers on both sides are remotely close that to means it needs to be tested because everyone is unable to come to an agreement.

So that's why I'm saying why not test as is and then we can actually know more about if this is a good or bad change as it stands for small and large scale encounters? And again we need to know how this will look once all players get a chance to test new builds that include ways to deal with sorcs? The testing that's being done is good in general but it's hardly exhaustive to be fair.

StaticWave · February 4

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

These 2 builds are not the same build. I'm guessing that first build is Crafty/Wretched, while that second build is Crafty/Rallying. That second build on a Dark Elf is Unsustainable, your probably setting at 1400-1600 mag & 600 stam for recoveries.

With 20k physical resistance (which is really low) on either build your Night blade Fodder especially the one with 1.7k crit resistance.

I'm thinking that 30k HP pool is with Deathdealers fully proced, without it your setting at like 27.5k which is really low.

Your still only sitting at 4k heal on that Hardened Ward on either build.

Something else to consider is a damage shield does not reduce the damage an execute skill is doing to you when your HP is low, and a 4k heal won't bring you out of execute range, so that damage shield will be getting stripped off with every execute. If a Sorc Spams Hardened Ward they can probably live, but your resources will be gone, because that's not a cheap skill compared to an execute.

Overall I'm thinking Sorc is looking fairly balanced with the other Classes, except Necro needs help and maybe Templar could use a little lovin too.

@Duke_Falcon

Mate, the screenshot of 2nd build literally shows 1.9k magicka regen and 1k stam regen.. I also have 24k physical resist and 27k spell resist. You can literally plug that build in the editor and see the numbers. Most magsorcs also run 30k-31k HP max.

Idk it sounds like you’re just trying to find reasons to oppose me. Good luck executing thru a 13.5k ward with vamp 3 and block casting underneath (Yes, you can actually block cast the heal on PTS).