PvE Nightblade, Purpose (2024)

Tyrant_Tim · January 31

What makes a class shine, is a sense of purpose. Right now, Nightblade’s only purpose in raid is ult-generation, this isn’t working.

Making Nightblade relevant in all forms of PvE, and for every role, is as easy as adding Major Vulnerability to Mark Target *instead of Major Breach* so every role can use the skill, buffing the DoT of Lotus Fan so Nightblade finally has some cleave, and either changing Dark Cloak to a health-based burst heal instead of a HoT or adding a smaller burst heal in addition.

Those changes are all that needs to be done for PvE Nightblade without any relevance for PvP.

Any scenario where DDs have to split from the main group to handle a high priority add, we would see Nightblade damage dealers overnight, and Nightblade tanks would finally be able to stay alive during Bahsei and Taleria HM.

Perhaps then we can stop giving the class non-solution buffs that only result in a worse PvP experience for everyone else.

*Edited for clarity.

Tyrant_Tim · January 31

Now that I’ve contributed to the solution, let’s address the problem.

Nightblade is extremely oppressive in PvP. Getting hit by repeated 6-7k Concealed Weapons by someone blocking only to be peppered with 20k Spectral Bows from an unkillable Nightblade is not fun, yet is so fun to play.

There needs to be a balance for everyone, where the class is fun to play, but doesn’t make your opponent want to leave PvP altogether.

When this patch goes live and every Nightblade brawler is running Sea Serpent’s Coil again, I don’t want to have to deal with 8-9k Concealed Weapons and 22-25k Bows, in fact, I won’t.

I shouldn’t have to build a tank to avoid getting 2-tapped by any class in this game.

Lykeion · January 31

My first character was NB, and I played it as my main character for 6 years from Morrowind until I changed to Arcanist last year.

The game's updates have been unfriendly to PvE NBs for a long time, but the last straw that made me leave was U38, which changed Concealed Weapon's buffs to have to be actively used. NB damage dealers, especially Stamblade's rotations had become unbearably complex. Too many things to be tracked, and at the same time the damage dealt is pitifully low. I tried to stay, I even wrote an addon for myself for CW tracking( https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info3655-ConcealedWeapon.html ), but it didn't improve the experience much. I ended up giving up on the character I'd been playing for 6 years.

The NB change in U41 didn't upset me much because I don't touch it anymore. I don't enjoy PvP and I don't want to change my goal for so-called strength. And for PvE it seems NB has long since run out of room. I just hope ZOS finds a better way to balance classes before the next unbearable change comes to Arcanists, or any other class for that matter

Vaqual · January 31

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Tyrant_Tim · January 31

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Absolutely.

For PvE, this is the answer. Plain and simple.

When Major Vulnerability was 30%, I would see the concern for PvP, but this is a 10% damage buff that Nightblade would have to sacrifice another skill for in PvP, and would help backbar bow Nightblades get away from Ice Staves. Right now, Mark Target and Elemental Susceptibility are not in competition.

And if this proves near-sighted, they can shave off damage elsewhere to make up for the damage increase, it doesn’t matter, what does matter would be the 10% increase in damage for your group in 4-man and trials where DDs break off from group.

Remiem · January 31

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Absolutely.

For PvE, this is the answer. Plain and simple.

When Major Vulnerability was 30%, I would see the concern for PvP, but this is a 10% damage buff that Nightblade would have to sacrifice another skill for in PvP, and would help backbar bow Nightblades get away from Ice Staves. Right now, Mark Target and Elemental Susceptibility are not in competition.

And if this proves near-sighted, they can shave off damage elsewhere to make up for the damage increase, it doesn’t matter, what does matter would be the 10% increase in damage for your group in 4-man and trials where DDs break off from group.

Mark Target should get a "MONSTERS ONLY" damage modifier, a much bigger one than Major Vuln.
That would let them become what they were before and should still be today, king of single target damage, without giving them anything on the PvP side.

Tyrant_Tim · January 31

Dekrypted wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Absolutely.

For PvE, this is the answer. Plain and simple.

When Major Vulnerability was 30%, I would see the concern for PvP, but this is a 10% damage buff that Nightblade would have to sacrifice another skill for in PvP, and would help backbar bow Nightblades get away from Ice Staves. Right now, Mark Target and Elemental Susceptibility are not in competition.

And if this proves near-sighted, they can shave off damage elsewhere to make up for the damage increase, it doesn’t matter, what does matter would be the 10% increase in damage for your group in 4-man and trials where DDs break off from group.

Mark Target should get a "MONSTERS ONLY" damage modifier, a much bigger one than Major Vuln.
That would let them become what they were before and should still be today, king of single target damage, without giving them anything on the PvP side.

I've been saying for so long that they need a monsters only type of buff. They put it on velothi. Just put it on nb and give them as much as they need.

When they put the buffs flat across the board, you just end up thinking they have bias for the class in pvp.

It could work, I see no reason why they couldn’t make up some new debuff for monsters only and throw it on Mark Target.

You can only stick it on a single target at once, as it falls off when you apply it to another, so I see no reason why they can’t let this ability be the answer.

Tyrant_Tim · January 31

Remiem wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Absolutely.

For PvE, this is the answer. Plain and simple.

When Major Vulnerability was 30%, I would see the concern for PvP, but this is a 10% damage buff that Nightblade would have to sacrifice another skill for in PvP, and would help backbar bow Nightblades get away from Ice Staves. Right now, Mark Target and Elemental Susceptibility are not in competition.

And if this proves near-sighted, they can shave off damage elsewhere to make up for the damage increase, it doesn’t matter, what does matter would be the 10% increase in damage for your group in 4-man and trials where DDs break off from group.

Mark Target should get a "MONSTERS ONLY" damage modifier, a much bigger one than Major Vuln.
That would let them become what they were before and should still be today, king of single target damage, without giving them anything on the PvP side.

Whatever decision they make, it needs to revolve around buffing Mark Target for group damage, it doesn’t matter if it’s an entirely new debuff, but that has to be the skill they tweak.

It’s exhausting watching them do these weird buffs to skills like Concealed Weapon, tacking on 10%, like they just also did with Incap, knowing that these “solutions” are not going to solve anything.

autocookies · January 31

deleted

Tyrant_Tim · January 31

autocookies wrote: »

I am 100% for this change to Mark Target. This should not offer anything when the target dies but add a debuff to an enemy that is group wide the entire duration of the skill. Not major vul as that would kill any necro's chance of joining a trial. Not major berserk ether as a sorcerer needs a chance of joining the group. Needs to be something else…

It would need to be a debuff, that way only the individual target is affected, as the identity of the skill traps it to one target at a time.

That’s also why Major Vulnerability would work too, in most fights, there will always be more than one enemy that needs to be debuffed, and Nightblade could ONLY ensure it for their priority target, and when certain fights like Dreadsail portals/bridge team and Falgravn 3rd floor require you to separate and kill the Torturers, your tanks are not going to be present to apply the debuff.

Necromancer could still handle any and all AoE application of the debuff.

Tyrant_Tim · February 1

I’ve been thinking about Lotus Fan’s AoE DoT and I honestly believe that if we got that to Acid Spray values, the skill would give Nightblade the cleave that would be necessary when paired with a change to Mark Target.

I don’t know why this hasn’t been done yet, as this is the most obvious route to take in addressing PvE without messing up PvP even worse.

Those are two skills that never land on your bar in PvP these days.

Zastrix · February 1

I did recommend last (or even the PTS cycle before that) that mark target sholud get a 20% single target debuff on the enemy which only the caster can utilize. It would be good damage AND you won't have a case of where you use one nightblade healers to buff the whole group. I like the other changes though.

I do like the HoT from cloak 100% but I can see a burst heal being good. Maybe a stronger HoT which doesn't have that dumb heals you for 150% if you don't move. Tanks have to move most of the time, it's impossible to survive without vigor, cloak and master S&B on vDSR (non-HM) last boss without it during maelstrom if you're main-tanking.

MashmalloMan · February 1

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

bar_boss_A · February 1

You are forgetting power creep when suggesting a group wide debuff/buff.

But I really wanted to talk about Lotus fan as I absolutely love the animation. Sadly the damage values are ridiculous low and will probably stay so for ever. The issue is it falls under the "gap closer" category which only allows a *0.6 damage following ZOS standards. Nonetheless I would really like for the Concealed Weapon buffs to instead be applied to Lotus Fan, maybe completely remove the upfront direct damage and switch it to the DoT.

Tyrant_Tim · February 1

bar_boss_A wrote: »

You are forgetting power creep when suggesting a group wide debuff/buff.

It’s an active power throw-away even having a Nightblade damage dealer in group to begin with so it would help balance out with something like Major Vulnerability, as a tank could run Yolnahkriin instead of Turning Tide.

Vaqual · February 1

Remiem wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Absolutely.

For PvE, this is the answer. Plain and simple.

When Major Vulnerability was 30%, I would see the concern for PvP, but this is a 10% damage buff that Nightblade would have to sacrifice another skill for in PvP, and would help backbar bow Nightblades get away from Ice Staves. Right now, Mark Target and Elemental Susceptibility are not in competition.

And if this proves near-sighted, they can shave off damage elsewhere to make up for the damage increase, it doesn’t matter, what does matter would be the 10% increase in damage for your group in 4-man and trials where DDs break off from group.

Mark Target should get a "MONSTERS ONLY" damage modifier, a much bigger one than Major Vuln.
That would let them become what they were before and should still be today, king of single target damage, without giving them anything on the PvP side.

Monster's only is the most annoying condition in game. Everything should at least have a bit of use in either game mode. Still thinking empower is trash.

Tyrant_Tim · February 1

Vaqual wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Absolutely.

For PvE, this is the answer. Plain and simple.

When Major Vulnerability was 30%, I would see the concern for PvP, but this is a 10% damage buff that Nightblade would have to sacrifice another skill for in PvP, and would help backbar bow Nightblades get away from Ice Staves. Right now, Mark Target and Elemental Susceptibility are not in competition.

And if this proves near-sighted, they can shave off damage elsewhere to make up for the damage increase, it doesn’t matter, what does matter would be the 10% increase in damage for your group in 4-man and trials where DDs break off from group.

Mark Target should get a "MONSTERS ONLY" damage modifier, a much bigger one than Major Vuln.
That would let them become what they were before and should still be today, king of single target damage, without giving them anything on the PvP side.

Monster's only is the most annoying condition in game. Everything should at least have a bit of use in either game mode. Still thinking empower is trash.

Have to say, never been a fan of sets that only work for one form of content or the other, when Plaguebreak lost it’s PvE application I haven’t touched it since.

Vaqual · February 1

Dekrypted wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Absolutely.

For PvE, this is the answer. Plain and simple.

When Major Vulnerability was 30%, I would see the concern for PvP, but this is a 10% damage buff that Nightblade would have to sacrifice another skill for in PvP, and would help backbar bow Nightblades get away from Ice Staves. Right now, Mark Target and Elemental Susceptibility are not in competition.

And if this proves near-sighted, they can shave off damage elsewhere to make up for the damage increase, it doesn’t matter, what does matter would be the 10% increase in damage for your group in 4-man and trials where DDs break off from group.

Mark Target should get a "MONSTERS ONLY" damage modifier, a much bigger one than Major Vuln.
That would let them become what they were before and should still be today, king of single target damage, without giving them anything on the PvP side.

Monster's only is the most annoying condition in game. Everything should at least have a bit of use in either game mode. Still thinking empower is trash.

While it may seem annoying, a large portion of players have asked for some separation of pve and pvp. Monster only conditions and usage of battle spirit requirements are one of the best vehicles to achieve this. Some skills are designed in a way where they aren't functionally useable in pve or pvp, ergo causing separation but in an effort to achieve balance or some semblance of it, it may likely be the best route to take.

Just my 2 cents

Sure, but also a popular opinion can be bad. If a skills balancing is so bad that it needs to be disabled in another game mode, while there are countless options to make single digit % changes for any form of quantifiable performance, that is just poor effort.

J18696 · February 1

Adding a monster only type of debuff to mark target would add more reason to bring nbs into raids but it wouldn't change the current raid composition it would still just be one nb healer but they would just slot mark now

Tannus15 · February 2

stop thinking that adding 1 unique buff will fix a class. it just means maybe they will run one support in that class.

classes need to be competitive in dps on an individual level. it's that simple.
the differences can be cleave vs single target, execute vs burst vs sustained damage.

if you add unique buffs like major berserk on atro's, if it's worth running then you get sorc healers.

if you want to fix the class for PVE then fix the damage. everything else is just wasting time.

Tyrant_Tim · February 2

Adding Major Vulnerability to Mark Target was only half of the solution provided.

The other half is increasing the damage-over-time of Lotus Fan to increase their overall damage and cleave impact in the group.

Currently Lotus Fan doesn’t do enough damage to land itself on DD Nightblade bars, and if it did, your groups would have easy up-time on an AoE Minor Vulnerability without the need for a Necro’s Agony Totem.

Those two changes are enough to guarantee a Nightblade in most trial compositions as a DD, even in weird scenarios like vAsylum where you’re forced at Range, that change to Mark Target would make killing the shielding dwemer a breeze.

Tyrant_Tim · February 2

@Tannus15 unless you propose multiplying Nightblade’s single-target DPS by 1.5x, they are never going to compete with other Damage Dealers that can cleave.

The best you can hope for, is getting them into a position where it’s beneficial to have them in team, and the Mark Target solution would be best on a Damage Dealer for trials, obviously this would change for 4-man, but dungeons and arenas tend to have a lot more variation to begin with.

I have NEVER heard of sending a Healer on Bridge Team during Dreadsail, and I have absolutely never seen one go left or right for Torturers, don’t even get me going on portal team for Sunspire and Cloudrest...

All of those scenarios would see a Nightblade DD.

When I say, “It’s that simple.” it literally is.

Tannus15 · February 3

adding major vuln, one of the most valuable debuffs in the game, to an easy to upkeep skill is madness.
that's a ult level debuff. it's not just that it's too strong for the NB kit, but it devalues other classes and sets.
it would be like adding major berserk for 10 seconds to a random skill ... oh wait.

sorc and blade single target should be a solid 10% to 15% above dk and arcanist. they have the weakest cleave, it should be factored in.

Tyrant_Tim · February 3

Tannus15 wrote: »

adding major vuln, one of the most valuable debuffs in the game, to an easy to upkeep skill is madness.
that's a ult level debuff. it's not just that it's too strong for the NB kit, but it devalues other classes and sets.
it would be like adding major berserk for 10 seconds to a random skill ... oh wait.

sorc and blade single target should be a solid 10% to 15% above dk and arcanist. they have the weakest cleave, it should be factored in.

Then what would your proposed solution be?

In your opinion, what would be the way to handle improving Nightblade’s PvE DD performance without completely destroying PvP?

My stance is unchanged, I do believe Major Vulnerability could either replace Major Breach or the full-health heal on kill of Mark Target because the skill is limited to “one target at a time.”

Which is exclusive to Mark Target.

w002exp · February 3

Tannus15 wrote: »

adding major vuln, one of the most valuable debuffs in the game, to an easy to upkeep skill is madness.
that's a ult level debuff. it's not just that it's too strong for the NB kit, but it devalues other classes and sets.
it would be like adding major berserk for 10 seconds to a random skill ... oh wait.

sorc and blade single target should be a solid 10% to 15% above dk and arcanist. they have the weakest cleave, it should be factored in.

Minor Brittle or Minor Mangle would be good candidates to replace major breach on marked target. Major Brittle or Major Mangle would be good candidates to put on Consuming Darkness.

Those debuffs are not nearly common enough. (Mangle probably better suited for a PvP morph or utilization)

Also the Major Berserk condition on Piercing Target is a bit underwhelming but I think it would have strong PvP utility if everyone on your team got the Major Berserk so long as that team mate attacked the marked target within the 5-10 seconds or so. That would make an interesting PvP dynamic where the NB is marking targets for focus and the team is being rewarded for team work with a strong buff to use on next target.

BlueRaven · February 4

I think at this point, the purpose of pve NBs is to make Necro players not feel so bad about their class choice.

FoJul · February 5

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

What makes a class shine, is a sense of purpose. Right now, Nightblade’s only purpose in raid is ult-generation, this isn’t working.

Making Nightblade relevant in all forms of PvE, and for every role, is as easy as adding Major Vulnerability to Mark Target so every role can use the skill, buffing the DoT of Lotus Fan so Nightblade finally has some cleave, and either changing Dark Cloak to a health-based burst heal instead of a HoT or adding a smaller burst heal in addition.

Those changes are all that needs to be done for PvE Nightblade without any relevance for PvP.

Any scenario where DDs have to split from the main group to handle a high priority add, we would see Nightblade damage dealers overnight, and Nightblade tanks would finally be able to stay alive during Bahsei and Taleria HM.

Perhaps then we can stop giving the class non-solution buffs that only result in a worse PvP experience for everyone else.

Swallow Soul rework!

Avran_Sylt · February 6

Dekrypted wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Major Vuln on Mark Target sounds nuts, are you sure about that?

Absolutely.

For PvE, this is the answer. Plain and simple.

When Major Vulnerability was 30%, I would see the concern for PvP, but this is a 10% damage buff that Nightblade would have to sacrifice another skill for in PvP, and would help backbar bow Nightblades get away from Ice Staves. Right now, Mark Target and Elemental Susceptibility are not in competition.

And if this proves near-sighted, they can shave off damage elsewhere to make up for the damage increase, it doesn’t matter, what does matter would be the 10% increase in damage for your group in 4-man and trials where DDs break off from group.

Mark Target should get a "MONSTERS ONLY" damage modifier, a much bigger one than Major Vuln.
That would let them become what they were before and should still be today, king of single target damage, without giving them anything on the PvP side.

I've been saying for so long that they need a monsters only type of buff. They put it on velothi. Just put it on nb and give them as much as they need.

When they put the buffs flat across the board, you just end up thinking they have bias for the class in pvp.

They do. Kinda...
Major/Minor Slayer. Could expand that to "non-player enemies".

Could add the Following to Mark Target:

"When your target dies, gain Major Slayer for 30s"

Could give NB's a mid/high gearspace role of Trash cleanup priority to then collapse back onto the main boss.

Cominfordatoothbrush · February 6

I gotta say adding major vuln to nightblade as an active class skill is kinda bonkers. It would contribute a lot to power creep and completely obsolete necro, turning tide, archdruid, and nazaray with one skill and still not fundamentally solve the issue that we have currently, which is that in terms of raw dps the nightblade is far too far behind. You'd have a nightblade healer or support dps and they'd be the vuln slot in the group.

While they do need 10-15% or so more damage with the current concealed change I also don't think major berserk or major slayer are the correct answers. The reason why these are also problematic is how common the buffs are. In the current live version even if you can out-single-target an arc on the dummy (not likely) you can't do it in a trial because the arc also has major berserk from the sorc, and major slayer is very common as well. Concealed weapon's buff was much better when it was a unique buff, and changing it to major berserk created a similar issue to U41's nightblade.

I think there are two options that will work in actually making NB competitive in dps
- simply give the class straight buffs. Increased damage for its skills, or passives, to make up for how far behind it is. But that creates further issues for PVP
- what is probably best imo. adding some kind of unique [+x% damage done to monsters for y seconds]. I really don't like adding this to reaper's mark for several reasons - it wouldn't be useful on bosses unless you could constantly apply it to adds (setting us back to square one, and not every boss has adds), it does no damage itself, and it already gives major berserk. I think what would be good is if nightblade either applied the buff I described by reworking twisting path to give it to yourself, or adding it as a passive to one of the class skill trees, like "Casting a [skill tree] ability while in combat grants +x% damage done to monsters for y seconds]"

Unrelated but the +10% crit damage imo should be changed to some amount of crit chance since this passive hasn't been changed since the introduction of the crit cap and it very easily puts NB over

Tannus15 · February 6

@Cominfordatoothbrush agreed on all points.

the class needs straight buffs.
if need be move some damage out of the burst skills that make them so strong in PVP and put it somewhere else. add a dot, change some damage types, i don't care. but adding it to a major buff or debuff on mark is not it. that's how you get 1 nightblade support in trial groups and nothing else.

let's be clear, all classes need to be balanced against arcanist, or arcanist needs to be nerfed. I don't care which. but some sort of equity needs to be reached.

Avran_Sylt · February 6

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Cominfordatoothbrush agreed on all points.

the class needs straight buffs.
if need be move some damage out of the burst skills that make them so strong in PVP and put it somewhere else. add a dot, change some damage types, i don't care. but adding it to a major buff or debuff on mark is not it. that's how you get 1 nightblade support in trial groups and nothing else.

let's be clear, all classes need to be balanced against arcanist, or arcanist needs to be nerfed. I don't care which. but some sort of equity needs to be reached.

Min-maxers want "variety" via unique buffs that do require at least 1 "support" from each class providing their unique passive bonus to the entire raid.

Thematic players want "variety" through different DPS/Healer/Tank features.

Most players are usually a mix of both.

NB has Minor Savagery as the "min-max" group stat.

Funnel Health is the thematic heal skill (heal off of damage dealt)

Merciless is the thematic damage ability.

Shadow Cloak is the "Tank" ability, but has prevalent usage in PvP offense.

DoT's don't fit the theme of an assassin all too well: It's about hitting the target when they're vulnerable, not sitting idly by.

It seems that Zeni wants to thematically approach this by using cloak as a primer.

But maybe it could be approached by using Mark Target as a Primer instead?

In PvE this doesn't change much as NPC's don't aggro from the application (I think), so overland solo should still feel thematic, and wouldn't double-dip with the cloak while sneaking.

In PvP this alerts the other player that something is coming, so it can be used to "stagger" damage by allowing the other player to block or roll-dodge, to get defensive.

EG:

Mark Target has the following additional effects:

A Successful Heavy Attack on a Marked Target applies Minor/Major Vulnerability to them for [x] seconds and consumes the Mark. (Tank/Support DPS... Needs work)

Attacking the flank of a Marked Target grants (some kind) of damage boost and consumes the Mark. (DPS)

Siphoning Abilities consume the Mark and heal allies nearby the enemy for [X]% of the Damage dealt (Healer)

It should be noted that I don't think these effects should be mutually exclusive, and that the Mark should be consumed such that it falls off in PvP if the effect is successfully defended against, costing more resources for another try.