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Simple changes to make NB good and why they are needed

Prionyx
Prionyx
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Greetings to everyone who decided to look up this thread. There will be 4 following sections in here:
1. Ranking: Here I will state how good or bad NB is a in various types of content, both PvE and PvP. There will be 7 grades: 1 - Horrible; 2 - Weak 3 - Decent, but can't stand the competition; 4 - Decent; 5 - Good; 6 - Excellent; 7 - Overperforming.
2. Explanation: Here I will explain why exactly NB belongs to the grades I mentioned.
3. Suggestions: Here will be a list of the changes that will make NB good both in PvP and PvE.
4. Introduction: I'll quickly introduce myself just so you know what kind of player made this thread. It may sound silly but you will get the point of why I decided to write it down.

Since I've wrote an entire essay here you can skip it straight to the third section if you don't want to read all of this, it is the most important one.


And here we go.

1. Rankings:
PvE rankings:

Trials:
Trial DD/DPS: 1(Horrible)
Trial Healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)
Trial Tank: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)

Dungeons(and 4 people arenes):
Dungeon DD/DPS: 6(Excellent)
Dungeon Healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)
Dungeon Tank: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)

Solo Arenas: 6(Excellent)

PvP rankings:

Battlegrounds:
Solo battlegrounds: 2(Weak)
Group battlegrounds: 2(Weak)
Solo Battlegrounds healer: 4(Decent)
Group Battlegrounds healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)
Imperial City:
Solo regular builds gameplay: 2(Weak)
Unorginized group: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)
Orginized small group(Small scale): 4(Decent)
Orginized big group(Ball group): 4(Decent)
Any unorginized group healer: 6(Excellent)
Orginized small group(Small scalle) healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)
Orginized big group healer(Ball group): 6(Excellent)
1vX Builds: 5(Good)

Cyrodiil:
Solo regular builds gameplay: 1(Horrible) (That's the only difference from the Imperial City list so you can skip it)
Unorginized group: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)
Orginized small group(Small scale): 4(Decent)
Orginized big group(Ball group): 4(Decent)
Any unorginized group healer: 6(Excellent)
Orginized small group(Small scalle) healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)
Orginized big group(Ball group): 6(Excellent)
1vX or Kite Builds: 5(Good)

Duels: 1(Horrible)

2. Now onto the explanations, this is a long one.

Trials:
Trial DD/DPS: 1(Horrible) - There is a lot to say and it's not as obvious as you may think. NB DD has 3 core problems: First - it's designed to be single target damage class, while the vast majority of trial bosses are all about AoE and there is no way to make single target designed class to be a good sheer damage dealer(parser) without changing the game's balance entirely. Second - even the single target damage is just too low. NB is lacking good class source of major savagery(cloak is NOT a good source. Examples of a good sources - flames of oblivion and vampire's bane) so there is no way to get minor heroism and skills damage is mostly just lower than it should be. Third - NB is just overall useless. NB grants no damage increase to the group whatsoever, the only unique buff NB can give is minor savagery which is not needed because minor prohpecy is basically the same thing now, but unlike NB sorcerers are useful and can give major berserk to the whole group(and they also have more DPS, both aoe and ST).

Trial Healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition) - Since the only thing that is actually important for PvE supports is how they can buff their group - let's see what NB can do... Oh well, NB can't do anything. As I mentioned above minor savagery is not needed, so the only thing that healer or tank can do is to uptime major cowardice on the enemy(can uptime minor cowardice but warden can do this as well). Major cowardice is a solid debuff but it only decreases NPC's damage, which is not exactly valuable for PvE. It is comfortable and can even be good sometimes, but in the most scenarios it's absolutely rudimental.

Trial Tank: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)(SAME THING AS A HEALER, you can skip that part) - Since the only thing that is actually important for PvE supports is how they can buff their group - let's see what NB can do... Oh well, NB can't do anything. As I mentioned above minor savagery is not needed, so the only thing that healer or tank can do is to uptime major cowardice on the enemy(can uptime minor cowardice but warden can do this as well). Major cowardice is a solid debuff but it only decreases NPC's damage, which is not exactly valuable for PvE. It is comfortable and can even be good sometimes, but in the most scenarios it's absolutely rudimental.

Dungeons(and 4 people arenas):
Dungeon DD/DPS: 6(Excellent) - This is one of the few things in which NB is actually good at. NB has excellent sustain(which is needed for dungeons unlike trials), great survivability/passive self healing(which is also needed for dungeons unlike trials) and a master assassins passive(which grants you 2974 penetration). These 3 things combined allows NB to use medium armor in dungeons without forcing support or another DD to wear a penetration set or changing your mundus to lover etc while any other class besides arcanist can't do that, which may not sounds too outstanding but it is actually a very good advantage. Major berserk actually makes sence in dungeons since there will be no sorcerer to give it to you, AoE damage is mostly not really needed in dungeons. Besides that NB's ulti is just good for most of the dungeons because it's cheap and very stable. Most of the other skills are stable as well, you don't have to slot more than 2 AoE ground dots which makes NB quite versatile.

Dungeon Healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)(SAME THING AS TRIAL) - Since the only thing that is actually important for PvE supports is how they can buff their group - let's see what NB can do... Oh well, NB can't do anything. As I mentioned above minor savagery is not needed, so the only thing that healer or tank can do is to uptime major cowardice on the enemy(can uptime minor cowardice but warden can do this as well). Major cowardice is a solid debuff but it only decreases NPC's damage, which is not exactly valuable for PvE. It is comfortable and can even be good sometimes, but in the most scenarios it's absolutely rudimental.

Dungeon Tank: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition)(SAME THING AS TRIAL) - Since the only thing that is actually important for PvE supports is how they can buff their group - let's see what NB can do... Oh well, NB can't do anything. As I mentioned above minor savagery is not needed, so the only thing that healer or tank can do is to uptime major cowardice on the enemy(can uptime minor cowardice but warden can do this as well). Major cowardice is a solid debuff but it only decreases NPC's damage, which is not exactly valuable for PvE. It is comfortable and can even be good sometimes, but in the most scenarios it's absolutely rudimental.

Solo Arenas: 6(Excellent) - Basically same thing as dungeons but healing, versatility and sustain are even more important here and NB is the most versatile class with best self healing and second best sustain among all PvE DD classes.

PvP rankings:

Imperial City:
Solo regular builds gameplay: 2(Weak) - NB lacks damage to shine in "regular" pvp with average builds. NB's core problem is that NB doesn't have any burst whatsoever. I'll give you a 2 examples of what burst combo is: Warden - Warden's shalks are the best burst ability in the entire game, it has a delay and deals massive damage, not to mention that it applies minor and major breach, but DELAY is what makes it this good. You can combine it with your ultimate(DB) and after that you can still make a guaranteed executioner hit. If you timed 1 skill well than other 2 are guaranteed and they both deal massive damage. That is incredible burst. One more example - Templar. Templar's burst skill is purifying light or POTL(Power of the light). It's damage is way lower compared to warden's shalks, but it also has a delay. What can templar do? Use purifying light and pressure you while it holds with crescent sweep and biting jabs. If everything is done right you will be at low health to the moment when purifying light procs, when you are at low health and purifying light is about to proc templar uses binding javelin, purifying light damages you and than templar uses radiant opression. If you get that UNBLOCKABLE stun while at low health you are dead, and javelin guarantees radiant opression(while purifying lights guarantees itself unless purged). These are 2 examples of what good burst should be. Sorcerers, necromancers and DKs have their burst abilities as well, but there is no point explaining how their burst works, you should have get my point here already. What combines EVERY burst combo is that they have delayed skill in them and are guaranteed if you managed to land one skill. Now what does NB have? Is there a damaging skill with delay? No, there is none. Is there any guaranteed damage after your ultimate like warden, DK or necro can do? No. The best thing NB can do is using incap or soul tether and landing guaratneed spammable after. That's it. Basically 12 ulti combined with 8k spammable. After which your enemy will simply break free, hold block and outheal your damage in 2 seconds. That is not a burst, especially compared to warden's 30k damage combo. It would be very good burst if you could land merciless resolve after incap, but the thing is... You can't. It's not guaranteed. It's predictable, can and WILL be dodged by players that are at least above average level, which doesn't even fit criterion of a burst. It's not a burst, you just use your ultimate and then use your skill, the significant difference is that it's not guaranteed and everyone will dodge it unllike other classes' combos. Besides damage problem NB has good buffs and debuffs, bad defence(there is no defence buffs whatsoever), OK healing(the only 2 healing skills you can slot are vigor and offering, but with NB's high stats they heal fairly good. Don't even mention that siphoning attacks/leeching strikes is a healing ability too, it's healing is mediocare and will not even consistently heal you when you need it the most because NB doesn't have passive damage in PTS contidition or can't use light attacks while blocking on LIVE condition) and best mobility among all classes due to shadow image and shadow disguise, + minor expedition from concealed is also good but not as close as important as shadow image and shadow disguise.

Unorginized group: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition) - All problems of "Solo regular builds gameplay" are applied here as well. NB doesn't have a burst damage, as well as any pressure, but can provide plenty of decent buffs to the group and soul shred synergy, which makes the situation slighty better. Choosing a warden(or any other more useful class) over NB would still be much more reasonable becase they would provide both more damage and more survivability.

Orginized small group(Small scale): 4(Decent) - Here is another thing. It is preferable *** have one nightblade in smallscale because of buffs it provides and because mass hysteria is the best aoe crowd control. But not more than one and it's basically a support, not a DD. Also group doesn't loose to much if there will be a warden controlling with turn evil instead of NB, and sometimes this is even better than having a NB.

Orginized big group(Ball group): 5(Good) - It is also preferable *** have one nightblade in a ballgroup because mass hysteria is the best aoe crowd control. But not more than one and it's basically a support, not a DD. Just as in smallscale. The grading is higher because range of AoE Crown Control for ballgroups is more important, so any group would like to have one nightblade to use it. It's not 6(Excellent) because it's overall replacable and not mandatory.

Any unorginized group healer: 6(Excellent) - Now here is where NB truly shines. As a pure healer(healbot) NB is currently the best class among all. NB's healer sustain is just the best, NB has class access to major evaison so you don't have to use dual wield to get it, just a regular healing output is highest because of the healing done and other stats NB has, magicka pool, WPD etc. On top of that there is the best healing ultimate, Soul Siphon. NB healer doesn't provide anything useful to the group like sorc or templar does but sheer healing output and major vitality is enough for NB to get it's 6 grade.

Orginized small group(Small scalle) healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition) - But it's another thing in a small groups. It's important to have a healer in a smallscale and NB still has the best healing output, but that's basically it.If you only have 6 people to play with healer templar or/and sorcerer are way more impactful due to they overpowered ultimates(Negare and nova), and of course you will not fill your group with healers only, so can't stand the competition here.

Orginized big group healer(Ball group): 6(Excellent) - Overall same thing as unorginized group because NB doesn't have anything that would make difference between them unlike other healers. Still insane healbot though, which makes NB useful and needed here.

1vX/Kite Builds: 5(Good) - Now here is the thing: There are no builds or classes that will that will let you fight multiple people that are same skill level as you are alone and win. It doesn't work like that. But you can make a build with high sustain and mobility to fight multiple players that are WAY below your skill level, and that's how "1vXers" play. Such builds requier you to use sustain set and get very high mobility, because it's 2 most important things for kitings. Sure, defence is important, but it will not make much difference while there are 10 players trying to kill you. The only thing you can do is run and kite, you need sustain and mobilty for that. NB has good sustain and best mobility among all classes due to shadow image and shadow disguise, and it's core problem(Very low damage) isn't as noticible here because such build are only oriented for very experienced player to fight very unexperienced one, mostly just PvErs who decided to get tier ones in Cyro or something like that. To kill such players you don't really need any damage, while NB can't kill an actuall PvPrs everyone can kill PvErs that are way below your skill level, any class and to be honest you don't even need any class passives or abilities to kill such players. So damage is not very important here, sustain and mobility are kings, NB has it both, which makes NB good for such builds, currently it's second best class to fight players that are below your skill level, even though you can't kill decent players - all the point of such builds is avoiding decent players and fighting only against below average ones.

Cyrodiil:
Solo regular builds gameplay: 1(Horrible) (That's the only difference from the Imperial City list so you can skip it) - Mostly same thing as IC "Solo regular builds gamelay" but the damage problem is even more noticable here because everyone is more tanky.

Unorginized group: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition) - All problems of "Solo regular builds gameplay" are applied here as well. NB doesn't have a burst damage, as well as any pressure, but can provide plenty of decent buffs to the group and soul shred synergy, which makes the situation slighty better. Choosing a warden(or any other more useful class) over NB would still be much more reasonable becase they would provide both more damage and more survivability.

Orginized small group(Small scale): 4(Decent) - Here is another thing. It is preferable *** have one nightblade in smallscale because of buffs it provides and because mass hysteria is the best aoe crowd control. But not more than one and it's basically a support, not a DD. Also group doesn't loose to much if there will be a warden controlling with turn evil instead of NB, and sometimes this is even better than having a NB.

Orginized big group(Ball group): 5(Good) - It is also preferable *** have one nightblade in a ballgroup because mass hysteria is the best aoe crowd control. But not more than one and it's basically a support, not a DD. Just as in smallscale. The grading is higher because range of AoE Crown Control for ballgroups is more important, so any group would like to have one nightblade to use it. It's not 6(Excellent) because it's overall replacable and not mandatory.


Any unorginized group healer: 6(Excellent) - Now here is where NB truly shines. As a pure healer(healbot) NB is currently the best class among all. NB's healer sustain is just the best, NB has class access to major evaison so you don't have to use dual wield to get it, just a regular healing output is highest because of the healing done and other stats NB has, magicka pool, WPD etc. On top of that there is the best healing ultimate, Soul Siphon. NB healer doesn't provide anything useful to the group like sorc or templar does but sheer healing output and major vitality is enough for NB to get it's 6 grade.

Orginized small group(Small scalle) healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition) - But it's another thing in a small groups. It's important to have a healer in a smallscale and NB still has the best healing output, but that's basically it.If you only have 6 people to play with healer templar or/and sorcerer are way more impactful due to they overpowered ultimates(Negare and nova), and of course you will not fill your group with healers only, so can't stand the competition here.

Orginized big group(Ball group): 6(Excellent) - Overall same thing as unorginized group because NB doesn't have anything that would make difference between them unlike other healers. Still insane healbot though, which makes NB useful and needed here.

1vX or Kite Builds: 5(Good) - Now here is the thing: There are no builds or classes that will that will let you fight multiple people that are same skill level as you are alone and win. It doesn't work like that. But you can make a build with high sustain and mobility to fight multiple players that are WAY below your skill level, and that's how "1vXers" play. Such builds requier you to use sustain set and get very high mobility, because it's 2 most important things for kitings. Sure, defence is important, but it will not make much difference while there are 10 players trying to kill you. The only thing you can do is run and kite, you need sustain and mobilty for that. NB has good sustain and best mobility among all classes due to shadow image and shadow disguise, and it's core problem(Very low damage) isn't as noticible here because such build are only oriented for very experienced player to fight very unexperienced one, mostly just PvErs who decided to get tier ones in Cyro or something like that. To kill such players you don't really need any damage, while NB can't kill an actuall PvPrs everyone can kill PvErs that are way below your skill level, any class and to be honest you don't even need any class passives or abilities to kill such players. So damage is not very important here, sustain and mobility are kings, NB has it both, which makes NB good for such builds, even though you can't kill decent players - all the point of such builds is avoiding decent players and fighting only against below average ones.

Battlegrounds:
Solo Battlegrounds: 2(Weak) - All problems of "Solo regular builds gameplay" are applied here as well. NB's lack of damage and defence is noticable in here.

Group Battlegrounds: 2(Weak) - All problems of "Solo regular builds gameplay" are applied here as well. Despite NB being somewhat useful to the group it would be much more reasonable to get a better classes for a Group Battleground because NB's control isn't mandatory here and it's the most important thing NB has.

Solo Battlegrounds healer: 4(Decent) - Unlike Group Battlegrounds you have no communication with your team and it makes other healers less useful, NB doesn't have any huge dependency on communication so it makes NB's healing output more valuable.

Group Battlegrounds healer: 3(Decent, but can't stand the competition) - NB has insane healing but it's overkill for a Battlegrounds, getting more useful healer that will tremendously increase group's damage(sorcerer or templar) if far more reasonable.

Duels: 1(Horrible) - All problems of "Solo regular builds gameplay" are applied here as well and are FAR more noticable. The only thing that is actually important in duels is damage, because you can easily boost your sustain, defence or healing in PvP, but you can't boost damage enough on certain classes to the point where you will be able to kill decent players, which are NB and necro(but necro is another story). NB doesn't have a burst combo, doesn't have any pressure of any kind - the only way to deal at least some damage is to use full proc build, but anyone can do this and anyone will be better in duels than NB because it doesn't help NB too much, core problems are the same, NB doesn't have any damage. No burst, no pressure.

So let's sum up what we have: NB is literally the worst PvE class that has no value to the team, deals no damage and is only viable in 4 people content as DD. NB is a good healer class in PvP, somewhat OK support for orginized groups and is one of the worst classes for a "regular" PvP, which is the only way 95% of the PvPers play. I think it's quite obivious that NB needs adjustment to make it better and I'm glad that ZOS are aware of this.

3. Here comes the most important part of the whole thread - changes that would make NB actually good.

I will divide this one to 2 parts: First is the 2 changes that alone would make this class useful and good for every type of content but will not even affect places where NB is already good(PvP Healer) and second is just some tweaks that are not necessary but it still would be nice to have them. Also it's worth noticing that I've seen necromancer's changes, the idea of reworking morphs if the only significant difference between them is their resourse cost and type of damage into a completely new ability is an amazing idea and I asbolutely like it, I hope ZOS will keep such amazing work with other abilities. It was a bold and good idea, so if ZOS are willing to make such changes then there are 2 NB's abilities that needs that treatment. Let's proceed:

Death Stroke
Soul Harvest (morph): This morph no longer increases your damage done against your target by 20% for 8 seconds and no longer applies Major Defile, instead it now applies unique debuff that increases target's damage taken from all sources by 10% for 8 seconds. - This will solve one of the NB's PvE core problems: value to the group(it's absence).
Incapacitating Strike (morph): Current PTS version with enchanced version of ultimate dealing 10% increased damage and debuff lasting 12 seconds is an awesome idea, this morph would better just stay like this.

Grim Focus
Relentless Focus (morph): This morph now requires 4 stacks instead of 5 and is no longer and instant projectile. It now has a delay between cast and dealing damage(3.5 seconds). Each stack increases you weapon damage by 125 instead of 80. Reduced the damage done by this morph by 30%. This change will solve NB's PvP core problem: Lack of damage and burst, while at the same time not affecting 1vX builds.
Merciless Resolve (morph): Should remain the same as it is on LIVE.

Now let's talk about less important changes, but the ones that would still be welcome.

Path of Darkness
Twisting Path: Damage of this ability is increased by 15%.

Cripple
Debilitate (morph): revert overcharged's application nerf, increase the cost of this ability from 2970 to 3500. - At first sight this change makes sence but we should just not forget that NB is worst DD in PvE so nerfing it's damage is not good. Cost increase would make sence because overcharged now restores your magicka.

Summon Shade
Dark Shade (morph): Damage of this morph is increased by 10%

Teleport Stike: Increase the duration of Minor Vulnerability to 20 seconds to this ability and both morphs.
Abmush: Increase the duration of Minor Berserk to 20 seconds. Replace empower with minor force.

Shadow Cloak
Dark Cloak: Morph: Increase healing of this ability by 150%. Remove effect of increasing healing while not moving. Let it grant Major Savagery and Prophecy like Shadow Disguise does. - This ability have suffered a lot of undeserved nerfs to the point it became absolutely useless in PvP... The only question is why?

Blur
Mirage (morph): Replace Minor Resolve with unique 5% damage reduction. - Minor Resolve is the buff you will have in absolutely any build in PvP so it would make sence to replace it with something else. NB lacks defence quite a lot so unique 5% damage reduction would make sence.

Magicka Flood(Passive): This ability now grants you 8% magicka and stamina, rather than only magika. Would also make sence to change it's name to something more fittng.

Master Assassin(Passive): This ability now grants you 258 weapon and spell damage for 5 seconds after dealing critical damage from an enemy's flank, rathen than 2974 penetration against enemy you are flanking.

4. Onto the point of why I think introducing myself makes sense in this thread: I'm @Prionyx, PC EU player. NB mainer. I have 12+ thousands of playtime and most most of them are NB playtime in both PvE and PvP. Onto the PvP: Around 70% of my playtime in PvP is NB playtime which was spent in every possible way to effectively play this class. Many people consider me to be one of the EU's best NBs to touch PvP. I'm also a member of the current strongest PvP group(Kirua). Onto the PvE: I barely play NB in PvE because nobody will take NB to the group anymore xD Outside of this I've cleared most of the trial trifectas(I'm missing one but it's in progress), some on NB, later on other classes because NB is now too weak in PvE for someone to take NB to the group. The point of this paragraph is not to brag about anything, it's to say that I'm far from being a new player and I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Edited by ZOS_Volpe on February 1, 2024 4:45PM
  • NotTaylorSwift
    NotTaylorSwift
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    Prionyx wrote: »
    Greetings to everyone who decided to look up this thread. There will be 4 following sections in here:

    4. Onto the point of why I think introducing myself makes sense in this thread: I'm @Prionyx, PC EU player. NB mainer. I have 12+ thousands of playtime and most most of them are NB playtime in both PvE and PvP. Onto the PvP: Around 70% of my playtime in PvP is NB playtime which was spent in every possible way to effectively play this class. Many people consider me to be one of the EU's best NBs to touch PvP. I'm also a member of the current strongest PvP group(Kirua). Onto the PvE: I barely play NB in PvE because nobody will take NB to the group anymore xD Outside of this I've cleared most of the trial trifectas(I'm missing one but it's in progress), some on NB, later on other classes because NB is now too weak in PvE for someone to take NB to the group. The point of this paragraph is not to brag about anything, it's to say that I'm far from being a new player and I know exactly what I'm talking about.

    Not reading all that but why would u write all of this and then say 'not to brag'. Also calling your group the 'current strongest pvp group' is kinda a reach when you consider that you don't even play anymore and you managed to get a 6 man signup in what? 5 months?
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Can I get a tldr? This is alot to read :( I just want nightblade buffed
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • IncultaWolf
    IncultaWolf
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    I'm not reading that, but yes nightblade needs a lot of buffs
  • merpins
    merpins
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    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Can I get a tldr? This is alot to read :( I just want nightblade buffed

    PVE nightblade needs buffs. PVP nightblade has its highs and lows and should get buffs to make up for its lows

    It shouldn't get buffs to make up for its downsides, since every class needs downsides and NB is too dominant already in PVP. PVE nightblade definitely needs buffs, though.
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
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    Prionyx wrote: »
    Greetings to everyone who decided to look up this thread. There will be 4 following sections in here:

    4. Onto the point of why I think introducing myself makes sense in this thread: I'm @Prionyx, PC EU player. NB mainer. I have 12+ thousands of playtime and most most of them are NB playtime in both PvE and PvP. Onto the PvP: Around 70% of my playtime in PvP is NB playtime which was spent in every possible way to effectively play this class. Many people consider me to be one of the EU's best NBs to touch PvP. I'm also a member of the current strongest PvP group(Kirua). Onto the PvE: I barely play NB in PvE because nobody will take NB to the group anymore xD Outside of this I've cleared most of the trial trifectas(I'm missing one but it's in progress), some on NB, later on other classes because NB is now too weak in PvE for someone to take NB to the group. The point of this paragraph is not to brag about anything, it's to say that I'm far from being a new player and I know exactly what I'm talking about.

    Not reading all that but why would u write all of this and then say 'not to brag'. Also calling your group the 'current strongest pvp group' is kinda a reach when you consider that you don't even play anymore and you managed to get a 6 man signup in what? 5 months?

    We had a break and we are back now^^ Do you think this is the best place to talk about it?
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
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    merpins wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Can I get a tldr? This is alot to read :( I just want nightblade buffed

    PVE nightblade needs buffs. PVP nightblade has its highs and lows and should get buffs to make up for its lows

    It shouldn't get buffs to make up for its downsides, since every class needs downsides and NB is too dominant already in PVP. PVE nightblade definitely needs buffs, though.

    When your only serious up is mobility and everything else is mediocare(sustain is good, but currently all classes have at least good sustain in PvP) making up for downsides is a way to go.
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
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    Have you considered the possibility that your incredible PvP success is due to NB being stronger than you're giving it credit for?

    Unlikely... When I relog to templar or warden i have a results I'm absolutely unable to reach as a NB. With my 70% of the playtime on NB that is.
    Edited by Prionyx on January 31, 2024 10:45PM
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
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    Sluggy wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Can I get a tldr? This is alot to read :( I just want nightblade buffed

    I gave up after the ranks lists but the tldr is: They are not very good at playing nightblades.

    So basically you have skipped my words and don't have anything to to confirm your words with, just regular idle talk. Way to go ;)
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
    ✭✭✭
    For you to say that Night Blades have no burst in PVP whatsoever indicates to me that you probably haven't played much PVP. Unless you went in on a tank build. Undoubtedly you would have gotten your wig split by a Night Blade out of cloak at least once and then you wouldn't say they don't have any burst.

    1. Name one burst skill NB has
    2. Tell me how can NB burst someone that is not a new player
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
    ✭✭✭
    The PVP ratings here are just entirely disconnected from the reality of the class's state, and frankly impossible to take seriously. There are admittedly serious issues with Nigthblade's performance on the PVE side, and this post does manage to capture them, but to say that NB is anything other than the #1 or #2 PVP class in most scenarios outside BGs and dueling is wild.

    Also you have said that NB is not good in BGs and duels. What makes NB soo special in IC or Cyro? NB recieves some 50% damage buff in there? Huh?
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
    ✭✭✭
    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    Prionyx wrote: »
    For you to say that Night Blades have no burst in PVP whatsoever indicates to me that you probably haven't played much PVP. Unless you went in on a tank build. Undoubtedly you would have gotten your wig split by a Night Blade out of cloak at least once and then you wouldn't say they don't have any burst.

    1. Name one burst skill NB has
    2. Tell me how can NB burst someone that is not a new player

    Merciless Resolve
    - The only ability with a higher base tooltip IN THE GAME is DK stam leap!).
    - NB also has the most damage modifiers in the game to buff that ability's damage even further than leap can reach.
    - NB can also force that ability to crit on demand.

    Next patch we can include Concealed in that too, since it will hit as hard as most ultimates unless it get adjusted before the change goes live.

    Hmm, lets see:
    Merciless Resolve, Ganking builds including the Force pulse gank builds, forcing crits by smart use of cloak, tether bombs.

    Oh and just for fun lets add in a few additional things that NB has that's not just limited to offense shall we:

    - The CHEAPEST burst heal in the game that is on par with coag and is only behind polar winds in terms of raw power.

    - NB also has the most flexible bar space in the entire game, able to freely slot an absurd amount of utility/niche options that other classes can only dream of having room to slot.

    - NB has unique mitigation via dodge roll cost reduction, MAJOR evasion, both major + minor cowardice, minor courage, major berserk (x2), a unique form of major vulnerability that is twice as strong that also stacks with vulnerability, guaranteed crits that can be timed to force merciless resolve to crit.

    I honestly don't know how you can say NB has no burst or is so weak. I ran my NB less than a week ago, on a hybrid brawler/ganker build and with 1 heavy attack into force pulse I was chunking 50% of good players 30k+ health bars instantly. Others on a more ganking focused version of my build (they still had 30k+ health) were deleting health bars by 90% or taking them from full to 0 left and right and it was constant and consistent with no real counter play.

    It honestly sounds like your build is completely outdated, or you just honestly aren't as good at NB as you think (claim) you are, or you haven't played at all since U34, or it's a combination of these.
    NB is currently one of the strongest and most well rounded classes in PvP. There are no downsides to playing NB at the moment (in PvP), hence why the population of NBs has exploded (in PvP) and all the meta chasers have jumped from DK to NB.

    In PvE, sure, NB definitely needs help there, I've been saying as much all along, but the issue is that NB is so over tuned in PvP right now and the devs just keep adding buffs that are not limited to PvE that keeps pushing NB even further up the tier list in PvP and that needs to change and the way to change that is to make use of battle spirit and the against monsters clause.

    You didn't name a burst skill. I'm still waiting... Claiming that one single skill that is IMPOSSIBLE to combine with anything is a good burst is redicilious. Hitting one skill for 15k IS NOT a burst.

    NB has unique mitigation via dodge roll cost reduction, MAJOR evasion, both major + minor cowardice, minor courage, major berserk (x2), a unique form of major vulnerability that is twice as strong that also stacks with vulnerability, guaranteed crits that can be timed to force merciless resolve to crit. - this is all nice but something like this can be said about any class. Buffs and debuffs... Yes it's good but NB doesn't have any good skills for this buffs to buff.

    It honestly sounds like your build is completely outdated, or you just honestly aren't as good at NB as you think (claim) you are, or you haven't played at all since U34, or it's a combination of these.
    NB is currently one of the strongest and most well rounded classes in PvP. There are no downsides to playing NB at the moment (in PvP), hence why the population of NBs has exploded (in PvP) and all the meta chasers have jumped from DK to NB. - Basically more idle talk... If you say I'm a bad player than I will be happy to see what would you do in a fight against me, would be especially nice if you would log NB so I can block and dodge all your bows and ultis.

    I ran my NB less than a week ago - that's just crazy how someone with less than a week of playtime on NB thinks they know better than someone with 6 years of NB playtime, don't you think?
    Edited by Prionyx on January 31, 2024 11:39PM
  • Turtle_Bot
    Turtle_Bot
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    xDeusEJRx wrote: »
    I'm a Magic Nightblade main and I seriously can't believe there's people who think Nightblade isn't great at everything in PVP.

    There's a lot to be desired for PVE nightblade for sure but I cannot believe this group of nightblade PvP players exist. I think some people are perpetually stuck in 2019''s Elsweyr

    This, so much this. It is simply mind boggling...
  • Foxtrot39
    Foxtrot39
    ✭✭✭✭
    Im gonna keep ranting about consumming darkness and its morphs being *** and being repeatedly ignored (even during the "touching underused skills combat changes" multiple patches ago) while stuff that is just fine keeps getting modified left and right causing more heated debate than constructive one

    No ultimate should be in the "so bad a sloted universal skill passive outdo it" position
    Edited by Foxtrot39 on February 1, 2024 12:16AM
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
    ✭✭✭
    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    Prionyx wrote: »
    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    Prionyx wrote: »
    For you to say that Night Blades have no burst in PVP whatsoever indicates to me that you probably haven't played much PVP. Unless you went in on a tank build. Undoubtedly you would have gotten your wig split by a Night Blade out of cloak at least once and then you wouldn't say they don't have any burst.

    1. Name one burst skill NB has
    2. Tell me how can NB burst someone that is not a new player

    Merciless Resolve
    - The only ability with a higher base tooltip IN THE GAME is DK stam leap!).
    - NB also has the most damage modifiers in the game to buff that ability's damage even further than leap can reach.
    - NB can also force that ability to crit on demand.

    Next patch we can include Concealed in that too, since it will hit as hard as most ultimates unless it get adjusted before the change goes live.

    Hmm, lets see:
    Merciless Resolve, Ganking builds including the Force pulse gank builds, forcing crits by smart use of cloak, tether bombs.

    Oh and just for fun lets add in a few additional things that NB has that's not just limited to offense shall we:

    - The CHEAPEST burst heal in the game that is on par with coag and is only behind polar winds in terms of raw power.

    - NB also has the most flexible bar space in the entire game, able to freely slot an absurd amount of utility/niche options that other classes can only dream of having room to slot.

    - NB has unique mitigation via dodge roll cost reduction, MAJOR evasion, both major + minor cowardice, minor courage, major berserk (x2), a unique form of major vulnerability that is twice as strong that also stacks with vulnerability, guaranteed crits that can be timed to force merciless resolve to crit.

    I honestly don't know how you can say NB has no burst or is so weak. I ran my NB less than a week ago, on a hybrid brawler/ganker build and with 1 heavy attack into force pulse I was chunking 50% of good players 30k+ health bars instantly. Others on a more ganking focused version of my build (they still had 30k+ health) were deleting health bars by 90% or taking them from full to 0 left and right and it was constant and consistent with no real counter play.

    It honestly sounds like your build is completely outdated, or you just honestly aren't as good at NB as you think (claim) you are, or you haven't played at all since U34, or it's a combination of these.
    NB is currently one of the strongest and most well rounded classes in PvP. There are no downsides to playing NB at the moment (in PvP), hence why the population of NBs has exploded (in PvP) and all the meta chasers have jumped from DK to NB.

    In PvE, sure, NB definitely needs help there, I've been saying as much all along, but the issue is that NB is so over tuned in PvP right now and the devs just keep adding buffs that are not limited to PvE that keeps pushing NB even further up the tier list in PvP and that needs to change and the way to change that is to make use of battle spirit and the against monsters clause.

    You didn't name a burst skill. I'm still waiting... Claiming that one single skill that is IMPOSSIBLE to combine with anything is a good burst is redicilious. Hitting one skill for 15k IS NOT a burst.
    I did name a burst skill, you have simply chosen to ignore it.
    NB has unique mitigation via dodge roll cost reduction, MAJOR evasion, both major + minor cowardice, minor courage, major berserk (x2), a unique form of major vulnerability that is twice as strong that also stacks with vulnerability, guaranteed crits that can be timed to force merciless resolve to crit. - this is all nice but something like this can be said about any class. Buffs and debuffs... Yes it's good but NB doesn't have any good skills for this buffs to buff.
    NB has an abundance of GOOD skills to buff with these buffs.
    Merciless Resolve
    Incap
    Concealed
    Offering
    Tether
    just to name a few
    It honestly sounds like your build is completely outdated, or you just honestly aren't as good at NB as you think (claim) you are, or you haven't played at all since U34, or it's a combination of these.
    NB is currently one of the strongest and most well rounded classes in PvP. There are no downsides to playing NB at the moment (in PvP), hence why the population of NBs has exploded (in PvP) and all the meta chasers have jumped from DK to NB. - Basically more idle talk... If you say I'm a bad player than I will be happy to see what would you do in a fight against me, would be especially nice if you would log NB so I can block and dodge all your bows and ultis.

    I ran my NB less than a week ago - that's just crazy how someone with less than a week of playtime on NB thinks they know better than someone with 6 years of NB playtime, don't you think?

    I have played NB on and off for literally years now (going on 9 years in this game btw). Sorc is my main, as that was my first class, but NB was my main for PvP for the first 2 years of getting into PvP (because my friends also played NB) and NB has been something I have constantly played on and off the whole time outside of a small break around U29/U30 where I played more DK (right before DK got all of its buffs).

    It's not less than a week of experience on NB, that was simply the most recent time I played the class. When was the last time you played NB?

    I also didn't say you were bad, I said that maybe you aren't as good as you think you are, that is not the same thing.

    I think you haven't played PVP at all if you think that your points about damage skills here makes any sence... PvP is not PvE. Players can heal, block and dodge... You have to burst or pressure to kill a decent players. NB doesn't have any single burst ability and no pressure without full proc build. What's the point of merciless if you can't do anything with it? You can't combine it with anything... My offer is still relevant, if you think I'm unexperienced or not as good as I say - welcome to alikr, waiting for you to 1v1 me, will gladly have a look on how "good" nightblade's damage is... Until then almost everything you said here is idle talk.
    Edited by Prionyx on February 1, 2024 1:01AM
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
    ✭✭✭
    Just to make clear: I'll stop responding to someone who has absolutely 0 clue about what they are talking, didn't even read the thread itself where I've wrote an entire essay about why exactly nightblade is a weak class and are just saying something like "NB is op, you are noob". All I can say to all of you is go read my first message.
    Edited by Prionyx on February 1, 2024 1:16AM
  • Prionyx
    Prionyx
    ✭✭✭
    xDeusEJRx wrote: »
    Prionyx wrote: »
    xDeusEJRx wrote: »
    I'm a Magic Nightblade main and I seriously can't believe there's people who think Nightblade isn't great at everything in PVP.

    There's a lot to be desired for PVE nightblade for sure but I cannot believe this group of nightblade PvP players exist. I think some people are perpetually stuck in 2019''s Elsweyr

    Idle talk with no arguments whatsoever as a responce to 25k+ characters text, how relevant.

    If I'm to genuinely give a critique, your discussion on burst and why Nightblade's burst doesn't line up with other classes is disingenuous, Nightbade is fundamentally not the same as a class like Warden, and Templar(which you mentioned in the IC section). Delayed burst combinations work for them because they are classes meant to be tank and spank classes. You cannot compare nightblade fundamentally to that. Nightblade is a stealth class, a lot of it's burst IS from situation where people DO NOT see you.

    It's extremely disingenuous to not even mention that in the breakdown. Is it a predictable combo? it sure is, however you seem to not mention that half of the time people in PVP will not SEE you incap them considering that's how most PVP nightblades play. Also, most PVP is high player count PVP so how often do you see the nightblade trying to incap you out of stealth in a 30+ man fight. Be serious for a second

    Hence why I say this is disingenuous, most nighblades are NOT brawlers, you could MAYBE make the argument of the burst combo not fitting in line with other classes if it was a brawler class. But ZOS does not intend for nightblade to be a tank and spank class and neither do most nightblade players play that way.

    Why is that every meta nightblade is primarily gank you with insane damage from stealth? Cause that's literally what Nightblade's burst is. You might argue that procs can and will carry proc damage sure, but I wonder how that burst combination is possible? Maybe it has to due with the evasive and mobile nature of Nightblade's skill set.

    Nightblade has ALL the tools necessary to kill with it's entire assassiin playstyle in mind. It has the evasiveness and mobility necessary to burst people like how an assassin is meant to feel. You did mention that for 1vx, which I'll credit you for but not mentioning this in the breakdown of how nightblade's burst works makes it so disingenuous.

    If a Nightblade fails to assassinate it's target, the only thing stopping them from moving to the next target is a 30+ man zerg, it's difficult to evade that, but they have ALL the tools to set up high damage ganks and get out there. However, to say "Nightblade has no burst whatsoever" as you claim is the biggest lie I've ever seen in this game.

    Basically you have said that NB is good because a good NB can kill weak players and run away from good ones...? What kind of argument is this...? Oh and because of extremely niche ganker gameplay which requires you to play 20k HP 0 defence build in which you will die from anything, while it's gameplay being as boring as possible since you just get an ultimate for 50% of the time, look for your target for 45% and at best 5% will be your action. Good class... Very interesting to play, just how it should be and obviously fits what ZOS stand for(play how you want. If play how you want means that if you choose NB then you can only play in one extremely boring way then something is definitely wrong here).

    And I don't even know how to comment on the part where you said that it's not right to compare NB to other classes. Why? Just why? Other classes have tools to kill player, some have huge burst(warden), some huge pressure(arcanist), some have a little of both(templar), but NB has nothing... No burst and no pressure. What makes NB good then?
    Edited by Prionyx on February 1, 2024 2:27AM
  • FoJul
    FoJul
    ✭✭✭
    I just want swallow soul buff, maybe even a ranged ultimate and/or stun.
  • xDeusEJRx
    xDeusEJRx
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Prionyx wrote: »
    xDeusEJRx wrote: »
    Prionyx wrote: »
    xDeusEJRx wrote: »
    I'm a Magic Nightblade main and I seriously can't believe there's people who think Nightblade isn't great at everything in PVP.

    There's a lot to be desired for PVE nightblade for sure but I cannot believe this group of nightblade PvP players exist. I think some people are perpetually stuck in 2019''s Elsweyr

    Idle talk with no arguments whatsoever as a responce to 25k+ characters text, how relevant.

    If I'm to genuinely give a critique, your discussion on burst and why Nightblade's burst doesn't line up with other classes is disingenuous, Nightbade is fundamentally not the same as a class like Warden, and Templar(which you mentioned in the IC section). Delayed burst combinations work for them because they are classes meant to be tank and spank classes. You cannot compare nightblade fundamentally to that. Nightblade is a stealth class, a lot of it's burst IS from situation where people DO NOT see you.

    It's extremely disingenuous to not even mention that in the breakdown. Is it a predictable combo? it sure is, however you seem to not mention that half of the time people in PVP will not SEE you incap them considering that's how most PVP nightblades play. Also, most PVP is high player count PVP so how often do you see the nightblade trying to incap you out of stealth in a 30+ man fight. Be serious for a second

    Hence why I say this is disingenuous, most nighblades are NOT brawlers, you could MAYBE make the argument of the burst combo not fitting in line with other classes if it was a brawler class. But ZOS does not intend for nightblade to be a tank and spank class and neither do most nightblade players play that way.

    Why is that every meta nightblade is primarily gank you with insane damage from stealth? Cause that's literally what Nightblade's burst is. You might argue that procs can and will carry proc damage sure, but I wonder how that burst combination is possible? Maybe it has to due with the evasive and mobile nature of Nightblade's skill set.

    Nightblade has ALL the tools necessary to kill with it's entire assassiin playstyle in mind. It has the evasiveness and mobility necessary to burst people like how an assassin is meant to feel. You did mention that for 1vx, which I'll credit you for but not mentioning this in the breakdown of how nightblade's burst works makes it so disingenuous.

    If a Nightblade fails to assassinate it's target, the only thing stopping them from moving to the next target is a 30+ man zerg, it's difficult to evade that, but they have ALL the tools to set up high damage ganks and get out there. However, to say "Nightblade has no burst whatsoever" as you claim is the biggest lie I've ever seen in this game.

    Basically you have said that NB is good because a good NB can kill weak players and run away from good ones...? What kind of argument is this...? Oh and because of extremely niche ganker gameplay which requires you to play 20k HP 0 defence build in which you will die from anything, while it's gameplay being as boring as possible since you just get an ultimate for 50% of the time, look for your target for 45% and at best 5% will be your action. Good class... Very interesting to play, just how it should be and obviously fits what ZOS stand for(play how you want. If play how you want means that if you choose NB then you can only play in one extremely boring way then something is definitely wrong here).

    And I don't even know how to comment on the part where you said that it's not right to compare NB to other classes. Why? Just why? Other classes have tools to kill player, some have huge burst(warden), some huge pressure(arcanist), some have a little of both(templar), but NB has nothing... No burst and no pressure. What makes NB good then?

    The fact you called "ganker" a "niche" gameplay for PVP really says all that needs to be said. Ganking is not niche even remotely. I dont know if you were around for 2022 but most nightblades were running caluurion's legacy and stygians, which were not Brawler playstyles, they played from stealth. The ENTIRE reason Caluurions legacy got nerfed was BECAUSE of gankers. They wouldn't nerf caluurion because of a "niche" playstyle, it WAS meta.
    Ganking and stealth playstyle has NEVER been niche on Nightblade. What you're advocating for IS the niche of Nightblade. There are few nightblades out there trying to tank and spank other classes.

    This is why I say this is disingenuous, you clearly don't know how most nightblades play this game's PVP.

    And as to why it's not right to compare Nightblade, is because Nightblade is fundamentally not the same as the other classes. It's a high mobility, high evasiveness, high damage class. It is not a brawler class, full stop. People playing brawlers are NOT the norm for nightblade. Shadowy disguise is NOT a tank and spank skill, I don't know if you know this. More nightblades run shadowy disguise in PVP than DON'T.

    Nightblade burst combo is meant to be where you get behind players and burst them from the flank or out of stealth. They literally have a passive where they DEAL MORE DAMAGE FROM FLANK. It's MEANT to be. This is why I think it's disingenuous, you look at the passives and skill how can you possibly think this class is meant to be played like how Warden or Templar is meant to be played? Be serious for a second.
    Solo PvP'er PS5 NA player

    90% of my body is made of Magblade
This discussion has been closed.