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PLEASE reconsider the Necromancer changes

arch1t3ct
arch1t3ct
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Necromancer is already suffering from the lack of offensive toolkit, and Blastbones was pretty much the only usable offensive skill in PvP. Besides being the main source of damage, it was a delayed burst damage mechanic which made non-dot necromancer somehow viable. Yes, stamina morph stays there, but its damage is much lower than the magicka one. This change just completely removes magicka Blastbones from PvP and gives NOTHING viable in return. 20% boost to DoTs and Grave Lord damage? Okay. But:
1. DoTs. Which DoTs are we supposed to use exactly? Siphon and Boneyard? These both are stationary AoE which are completely useless in PvP scenario. There is not a single viable DoT for PvP in necro’s toolkit. Are we supposed to rely on procs more than on our class skills? Is this the new class identity?
2. Grave Lord tree. This tree isn’t much viable for PvP as well. As mentioned, Siphon and Boneyard are unusable in PvP. Let’s talk about other skills in this tree:
  • Skulls are slow and clunky, you can not combo them with anything. It’s not a delayed burst, it’s not an execute, it doesn’t apply DoT, it’s just a clunky spammable. The 3rd cast damage boost is nice but it’s still not enough to recover necro’s lack of damage especially when you can’t combine it with delayed burst.
  • Skeletal Archer is okay, but still not worth slotting since there are plenty of other skills and procs that would outperform this skill.
  • Colossus is good, but it’s an ultimate. Good for bombers, but I doubt regular players would want to waste a whole skill slot just to boost their ultimate.
Even if we slot all these 3 skills and boost them by 20%, it would still be less DPS, less pressure and less burst than just having normal Blastbones. Epic.

ALSO, don’t forget that the class is still missing important buffs and combat mechanics such as Brutality, Savagery, Breach, hard CC on demand, execute, mobility, etc etc.
I genuinely do not understand the idea behind these changes. This would just narrow the variety of playstyles available on necro even harder. If this goes live, this would be the final nail to the Necromancer’s coffin in PvP.

Please, @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno , the class has been neglected for too long.
Here are my suggestions on REASONABLE class tweaking:
  • Rasande_Robin
    Rasande_Robin
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    This is not the way to go!

    Even a "cooldown" on the one we have now would be a better patch notes update and we would be able to cast a new one even if one is stuck in a negate!
    PC/EU: Orcana "something"-stone
  • MotherOfMoss
    MotherOfMoss
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    Yes please reconsider. It's hard to see reasons for converting the core damage ability of a damage-poor class (or at least a challenging-to-do-good-damage-with class) into a buff... Necros have comparatively little outbound damage to buff, so why and what are we buffing?
    Long-time fan of TES Online: Furnishing and fashion simulator with massively multiplayer online chatting features.
  • Urvoth
    Urvoth
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    Decimus wrote: »
    A good solution would be moving Stalking Blastbones +50% damage done based on distance to the Blighted Blastbones morph and keep the Major Defile on top of it to compensate for Flame Damage->Disease Damage, which makes it hit less on vampires.

    The new buff morph has some potential in niche setups, but it is currently replacing the one decent, fun playstyle necromancer has in PvP (bombing/burst with Blastbones/Colossus).


    What we need is alternatives (and buffs) to that, not replacements.

    At the point they should either make blighted cost mag or make it have a cost based on your highest resource.
  • CameraBeardThePirate
    CameraBeardThePirate
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    Decimus wrote: »
    A good solution would be moving Stalking Blastbones +50% damage done based on distance to the Blighted Blastbones morph and keep the Major Defile on top of it to compensate for Flame Damage->Disease Damage, which makes it hit less on vampires.

    The new buff morph has some potential in niche setups, but it is currently replacing the one decent, fun playstyle necromancer has in PvP (bombing/burst with Blastbones/Colossus).


    What we need is alternatives (and buffs) to that, not replacements.

    This. If they absolutely insist on deleting one of the morphs, consolidate their bonuses into 1 skill.

    It's not like adding Defile and the Stalking modifier to a single blastbones morph would make necro OP. Necro doesn't really have much else going for it.

    The new buff has potential for DoT builds, but it's just going to push Necros into the ol' AoE DoT Proc setups which are incredibly boring (and incredibly limiting due to the issues Necro still has with barspace).

    And to top it all off, ZOS still hasn't done anything to the many abilities in their kit that are completely dead in the water.
    Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on January 30, 2024 2:57PM
  • Twohothardware
    Twohothardware
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    The problem with Blastbones was never a difficulty with needing to recast it every 3 seconds. That’s no different than the old Shalks on Warden that everyone wishes they could have back.

    Necro needs a damage buff but not by removing it’s single only high damage burst skill in the toolkit.
  • Remathilis
    Remathilis
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    The problem with Blastbones was never a difficulty with needing to recast it every 3 seconds. That’s no different than the old Shalks on Warden that everyone wishes they could have back.

    Necro needs a damage buff but not by removing it’s single only high damage burst skill in the toolkit.

    Blastbones feels bad because every part of it feels clunky. It requires aim, has a 3 second cast animation, then takes 7 seconds to reuse. There is no precast like shalks, it is clunky to LA or even HA weave, and isn't fire and forget like a DoT. It also doesn't have an instant-cast option like fragments. It's the worst of all possible worlds and it's testament to the necro that this is the best skill in it's kit.

    Blastbones absolutely needed to be reworked, but this probably isn't the fix needed.
  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
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    Decimus wrote: »
    A good solution would be moving Stalking Blastbones +50% damage done based on distance to the Blighted Blastbones morph and keep the Major Defile on top of it to compensate for Flame Damage->Disease Damage, which makes it hit less on vampires.

    The new buff morph has some potential in niche setups, but it is currently replacing the one decent, fun playstyle necromancer has in PvP (bombing/burst with Blastbones/Colossus).


    What we need is alternatives (and buffs) to that, not replacements.

    I have my sustain finely tuned on my Altmer necro in PVP. This change will force me to build for more stamina sustain and that's going to be a loss of damage. I was already just doing okay using NMA and Wretched Vitality. This will make things worse.
  • RaptorRodeoGod
    RaptorRodeoGod
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    Idk the new skill feels pretty good with venom skull spam, at least on a dummy
    Give all classes access to a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.
  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
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    They should change Empowering Grasp instead. Maybe like this:

    EMPOWERING GRASP
    Summon skeletal claws from the ground in front of you, increasing your damage done to enemies in the area by (?)% . It also applies Empower to your allies. The effect lasts (?) seconds.
  • CameraBeardThePirate
    CameraBeardThePirate
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    Idk the new skill feels pretty good with venom skull spam, at least on a dummy

    Outside a dummy parse, the new skill screws with corpse rotations.

    You can no longer place a corpse at the enemies feet, making it difficult to get corpses in location for Boneyard and Siphon.

    In PvP, Skulls are close to worthless because the dodge window is too long - Sacrifice will only push PvPers to running boring AoE DoT Proc setups since the class doesn't have any usable DoTs in PvP.
    Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on January 30, 2024 6:54PM
  • RaptorRodeoGod
    RaptorRodeoGod
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    Idk the new skill feels pretty good with venom skull spam, at least on a dummy

    Outside a dummy parse, the new skill screws with corpse rotations.

    You can no longer place a corpse at the enemies feet, making it difficult to get corpses in location for Boneyard and Siphon.

    In PvP, Skulls are close to worthless because the dodge window is too long - Sacrifice will only push PvPers to running boring AoE DoT Proc setups since the class doesn't have any usable DoTs in PvP.

    Sooo if you want to use this morph... Play in melee? That's what I intend to do at least.

    I'm no good at pvp, so I couldn't debate you on that front.

    I'm also not against a blighted blastbone damage buff or anything, I just think the new alternative is good for those that don't like regular blastbones gameplay
    Give all classes access to a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.
  • CameraBeardThePirate
    CameraBeardThePirate
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    Idk the new skill feels pretty good with venom skull spam, at least on a dummy

    Outside a dummy parse, the new skill screws with corpse rotations.

    You can no longer place a corpse at the enemies feet, making it difficult to get corpses in location for Boneyard and Siphon.

    In PvP, Skulls are close to worthless because the dodge window is too long - Sacrifice will only push PvPers to running boring AoE DoT Proc setups since the class doesn't have any usable DoTs in PvP.

    Sooo if you want to use this morph... Play in melee? That's what I intend to do at least.

    I'm no good at pvp, so I couldn't debate you on that front.

    I'm also not against a blighted blastbone damage buff or anything, I just think the new alternative is good for those that don't like regular blastbones gameplay

    Cool, but playing in melee isn't an option in every fight. Some boss fights necessitate staying at range, others have adds, phases, or mechanics that need to be burned quickly at range.

    ZOS made an oversight. Acting like they purposefully made ranged corpse gen impossible while using Sacrifice is silly.
    Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on January 30, 2024 7:24PM
  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    LOL I see this as "Why aren't you necros using Doom Basketball more often? Let us wreck the one thing you kind of like about necro, albeit buggy and unreliable; so you use doom basketball more""
  • RaptorRodeoGod
    RaptorRodeoGod
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    Idk the new skill feels pretty good with venom skull spam, at least on a dummy

    Outside a dummy parse, the new skill screws with corpse rotations.

    You can no longer place a corpse at the enemies feet, making it difficult to get corpses in location for Boneyard and Siphon.

    In PvP, Skulls are close to worthless because the dodge window is too long - Sacrifice will only push PvPers to running boring AoE DoT Proc setups since the class doesn't have any usable DoTs in PvP.

    Sooo if you want to use this morph... Play in melee? That's what I intend to do at least.

    I'm no good at pvp, so I couldn't debate you on that front.

    I'm also not against a blighted blastbone damage buff or anything, I just think the new alternative is good for those that don't like regular blastbones gameplay

    Cool, but playing in melee isn't an option in every fight. Some boss fights necessitate staying at range, others have adds, phases, or mechanics that need to be burned quickly at range.

    ZOS made an oversight. Acting like they purposefully made ranged corpse gen impossible while using Sacrifice is silly.

    Seems to be a super high endgame problem because I can be in melee for most fights, as the average dps chump I am.

    However I agree that you should be able to select corpses at range if you were to prefer those.
    Give all classes access to a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.
  • CameraBeardThePirate
    CameraBeardThePirate
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    Idk the new skill feels pretty good with venom skull spam, at least on a dummy

    Outside a dummy parse, the new skill screws with corpse rotations.

    You can no longer place a corpse at the enemies feet, making it difficult to get corpses in location for Boneyard and Siphon.

    In PvP, Skulls are close to worthless because the dodge window is too long - Sacrifice will only push PvPers to running boring AoE DoT Proc setups since the class doesn't have any usable DoTs in PvP.

    Sooo if you want to use this morph... Play in melee? That's what I intend to do at least.

    I'm no good at pvp, so I couldn't debate you on that front.

    I'm also not against a blighted blastbone damage buff or anything, I just think the new alternative is good for those that don't like regular blastbones gameplay

    Cool, but playing in melee isn't an option in every fight. Some boss fights necessitate staying at range, others have adds, phases, or mechanics that need to be burned quickly at range.

    ZOS made an oversight. Acting like they purposefully made ranged corpse gen impossible while using Sacrifice is silly.

    Seems to be a super high endgame problem because I can be in melee for most fights, as the average dps chump I am.

    However I agree that you should be able to select corpses at range if you were to prefer those.

    All they'd have to do is make it still target an enemy but apply a long lasting AoE sticky DoT. Keep the self corpse because more corpse gen isn't a bad thing. You could then either keep the Sacrifice buff on the skill itself or move the buff to one of the many unused Necromancer skills to incentivise actually slotting necromancer abilities.

    The idea of completely removing the damage of the skill just to buff your other damage is weird - the other skills aren't good. Why not add the buff somewhere else and change one Blastbones morph to a sticky DoT, something Necro desperately needs?

    Im not at all opposed to adding an alternate playstyle. Its implementation just wasn't very well thought out, and dumpsters the better morph.
    Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on January 30, 2024 8:02PM
  • OtarTheMad
    OtarTheMad
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    Necro needs a sticky dot with this change, we need more reason to put class skills on our bar. I’d say this:

    Boneyard: Change one morph of this ability to need a target. Boneyard now attaches to the target doing X damage over X seconds to them and all around them. This also now drops corpses

    Skeletal Mage: One morph of this places “Corruption” on the targets with the first hits, doing X damage over X seconds.

    These are just quick examples I thought up but you get the idea.
  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
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    LOL I see this as "Why aren't you necros using Doom Basketball more often? Let us wreck the one thing you kind of like about necro, albeit buggy and unreliable; so you use doom basketball more""

    It could be a really cool spammable if it had the flight time and weave-ability as destructive reach, but for some reason it has the stupid floaty arc. I actually like the skill aesthetically.
  • CameraBeardThePirate
    CameraBeardThePirate
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    NuarBlack wrote: »
    LOL I see this as "Why aren't you necros using Doom Basketball more often? Let us wreck the one thing you kind of like about necro, albeit buggy and unreliable; so you use doom basketball more""

    It could be a really cool spammable if it had the flight time and weave-ability as destructive reach, but for some reason it has the stupid floaty arc. I actually like the skill aesthetically.

    Seriously, for any PvP outside of melee range, Skulls are awful. The dodge window feels like an entire 5 seconds - you can cast the ability after seeing your opponent dodge, the Skull reaches the opponent a full 2 seconds after the dodge, and yet the ability still gets dodged. It's ridiculous.
  • NuarBlack
    NuarBlack
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    NuarBlack wrote: »
    LOL I see this as "Why aren't you necros using Doom Basketball more often? Let us wreck the one thing you kind of like about necro, albeit buggy and unreliable; so you use doom basketball more""

    It could be a really cool spammable if it had the flight time and weave-ability as destructive reach, but for some reason it has the stupid floaty arc. I actually like the skill aesthetically.

    Seriously, for any PvP outside of melee range, Skulls are awful. The dodge window feels like an entire 5 seconds - you can cast the ability after seeing your opponent dodge, the Skull reaches the opponent a full 2 seconds after the dodge, and yet the ability still gets dodged. It's ridiculous.

    Yeah if Zos wants us to use it that's all they have to do is fix it rather than destroying other options.
  • ItsNotLiving
    ItsNotLiving
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    I know I’m in the minority but I really like the change. I think it’s probably going to a lot stronger than people realize in PvP at least.
  • Hottytotz
    Hottytotz
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    IDK after tying out the changes on the PTR its actually pretty good. While I see most of your points, none of your points actually fix the underlying problems. None of them... I was hoping to hear some good ideas but many of you just want to keep your huge blastbones nuke skill while also buffing it by 20%?... I know necro is behind but we have to keep things in perspective.

    I agree that blastbones as a rotational ability is an issue despite many of you suddenly acting like its not just so you can keep it. However I also agree that removing it is not the way to go. I agree that some other ability should have had this effect added and maybe only have its effect buff DOTS and Pets besides blast bones etc. Having strong short duration dots be necros niche would make sense. This change to blastbones feels incomplete like its step 1 of a 3 step process...

    Finally even though I dont think blastbones should go away, I also dont think that it can stay like it is. The core issue of having to spam this every 3rd ability is a pain and makes necro rotation the worst feeling in the game and thats not an opinion.

    So whats the solution? IMO! Flaming skull is and has always been trash.
    1. Remake skull and morphs into the sacrifice line massively buffing dots and pets.
    2. Make blastbones some kind of skill you dont spam every 3 seconds. IMO make either a very strong 6-10s dot OR have it deal a burst of damage when it lands and every 3 seconds for 9-10s. That way it only needs to be cast once very 10s etc.
    3. Rework 2-3(1-2 if making blast bones have a dot component) into short duration 4-10s class dots. Thinking things like boneyard and siphon and maybe one more.
    4. If necro pet is not strong enough with buff from sacrifice figure out how to make it so.

    In the end you would have a class based around keeping up short but strong dots and pets. Buffing them to carry your damage.

    I get a portion of you love your blast bones but necro will never again be good or even just ok outside of EC support if we rely on the blastbones crutch and trash rotation gameplay.
  • Lystrad
    Lystrad
    Honestly my biggest issue with sacrificial bones is that it lacks it's own identity. You can very easily tell it was ironically enough cobbled together from the bones of a different ability that was offered up in sacrifice. Like, why raise a skeleton so that the skeleton can sacrifice itself to buff you? That's just weird and has too many unnecessary steps. They clearly just needed something to do with the skeleton.

    The way the ability should work is just, you buff yourself, if there is a corpse to sacrifice you get an additional effect or maybe it costs health but if you sacrifice a corpse the heal cost is negated, maybe both. It would honestly be a great way for one of the siphon abilities to work, not so much blastbones.
    Edited by Lystrad on January 31, 2024 2:25AM
  • Remiem
    Remiem
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    "Your huge blastbones nukes", lmao.
    I get hit by bigger Deep fissures on average, despite Stalking's modifier and its better damage type.

    No to everything you proposed and live Blastbones' rotation is fine. I know ZOS will go through, they just need to replace Blighted instead of Stalking so I and other PvPers can at least ignore it.
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