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Siphoning Strikes and its morph is a slap to Sorc buff requests

StaticWave
StaticWave
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mg9mtwbem5za.png

Sorc mains have been asking for a more reliable Dark Deal and Crit Surge for months, if not years, yet the changes are a slap to our efforts. Instead of making Crit Surge heal more reliable, you have made Siphoning Strike what we asked of Crit Surge. Instead of making Dark Deal more reliable, you have also made that change on Siphoning Strike.

I honestly don't understand the reasoning, especially when we have complained about how tanky NB is on the live server. Don't get me wrong, I like the Sorc changes even though it's mostly for magsorc and stamsorc still gets nothing, but these NB changes are absurd.
Platform:
PC NA

Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • monkidb16_ESO
    monkidb16_ESO
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    NB gets nerfed.
    Sorc mains: "I wish that were me" :D

    Let's take a look at both versions over 20 seconds:

    Old costs:
    • 1 GCD
    • 1080 Mag
    Old gains:
    • Heals 1452 * 20
    • Restores 106 * 20 + 4270

    So 1 GCD for 29040 and 5310 main resource

    New costs:
    • 2 GCD
    New gains:
    • Heals 1800 * 20
    • Restores 4000 (dual)

    So 2 GCD for 36000 health and 4000 resources

    Difference:
    Lose 1 GCD and 1310 main resource every 20 seconds for 7000 health and 4000 off resources.
    And thats not even accounting for losing reave (another 2000 all resources)

    Just saying: "Be careful what you wish for"
  • Trejgon
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    New costs:
    • 2 GCD

    Not sure where you got that one from, Patch notes clearly state that siphoning are being changed to always provide the heal bonus when slotted, and can be activated to do the sustain thing.

    That being said while I agree that new siphoning strikes are superior critical surge (needs only slotting, and any damage once per second will proc the heal off, vs needs to be manually activated and then only proc on critical hits, which requires alot of investment into proccing reliably) But I would argue that they are not superior dark deal in same package.

    Dark deal provides a chunky heal, big primary resource sustain in burst and over-time value, but also minor berserk/force. New Siphoning strikes cost hp to cast, and provide no named buff, over time resource sustain is delegated to one specific morph.

    In the end, siphoning strike was always ability I as a sorc main was always envious of NBs having, and it is getting only better, and don't let the fact that I disagree with it being superior version of 2(!) of sorc skills take away from the fact that in the end it is vastly superior version of critical surge.

    Just as Grim focus is functionally superior version of bound armaments, tho I guess at least in that case sorcs get superior visual indication of skill being ready to fire, instead of fashion-defining permanent weapon glow for having thing slotted....
  • monkidb16_ESO
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    Did you miss the part where it's not a 20s duration skill anymore? It's passive. You could literally never press it and get the sustain/healing.

    No, but you seemed to have missed me adressing that.

  • MashmalloMan
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    Did you miss the part where it's not a 20s duration skill anymore? It's passive. You could literally never press it and get the sustain/healing.

    No, but you seemed to have missed me adressing that.

    I did :D
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Again both not accounted for losing reave (2000 both resources)

    Reeve gave 100 mag and stam, but Siphoning only gave 106 mag OR stam, not both. You're also able to have Soul Harvest ult gen from either bar now, any miniscule mag/stam you lost is instantly regained by the fact that you can cast your ults with higher uptime or get some much needed ult flexibility if you were double slotting it.

    Edit: I didn't even think about the fact that you can get this while block casting, so tank buff as well.

    Both Reeve and Siphoning attacks were based on light attacks. We can't pretend that in any given combat scenario you always had 100% uptime on 1 light attack a second. Was there an enemy to light atack? What about a melee build, how often do you spend closing the distance or line of sighting? How about all the time you spend in stealth? For pve, what about boss mechanics and phases?

    Even DPS Gods don't average 1 light attack a second, the general player will average around 0.85-0.9 on a target dummy and the thing doesn't even move so you can't begin to compare them 1:1 over 20s like that unless you're willing to concede how much easier it is to proc these effects with any damage source vs only auto attacks.

    Anyway, this is all to say it's just odd that Sorc has been asking directly for changes like Siphoning Attacks to Crit Surge and Dark Deal, and they somehow ignored them and gave it to NB despite no one asking for this. There are other positives our 2 skills give that Siphoning doesn't have, but honestly I'd trade both of them for Siphoning Attacks in a heart beat. Saving that bar space and not being so reliant on Crit Chance RNG procs.. or spending 4 GCDs in a 30 second window on 2 abilities with mismatching timers vs Siphoning Attacks where you just cast the resource return when you need it, not just to keep up a buff.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on January 30, 2024 7:56AM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Faulgor
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    Crit Surge has been nerfed so many times over the years, especially because crit chance has steadily been lowered, that when you also consider all the other ways and sets we have to heal or mitigate damage, it's just completely lackluster in the current iteration of the game.

    What always bugged me about the skill is that it made no sense conceptually that your lightning would heal you, but I put that off because it was just a really good skill. Now its main use is for Major Sorcerery/Brutality, and that's just not enough imo.

    Meanwhile we have Dark Exchange, which is supposed to be a resource skill/heal (with a cast time lol) that for some reason got an offensive buff element a couple of patches ago, which would be more fitting for something like Crit Surge.
    Both skills seem to step on each others turf while neither is particularly good at what it does.

    NB's new Siphoning skill on the other hand just focuses on resource restore and does that excellently. You don't even have to activate it! And no need to jump through Crit RNG hoops! And when you heal 10 times, you even get to use the Leeching Strikes morph for free to restore 2000 magicka and stamina! Instantly!

    Now, I would say that we shouldn't just copy the NB skill for Sorcerers, although it's pretty clear that NBs took the whole concept from Sorcs to begin with ... but my line of thinking is, to disentangle Dark Exchange and Crit Surge, let them focus on resources or damage, and simply enhance already existing skills.

    Because, guess what, Sorcerer already has a passive that heals us on dealing damage!


    Surge
    Grants Major Brutality and Sorcerery for 33 seconds.
    (maybe) While active, dealing Critical Damage grants you Major Prophecy and Savagery for 10 seconds.

    Critical Surge
    new: While active, dealing Critical Damage grants you Minor Berserk and Minor Force for 3 seconds.

    Power Surge
    new: While active, activating a Critical Heal grants Minor Vitality to the target and Minor Mending to you for 6 seconds.


    Dark Exchange
    Instantly restore 8000 Health and 3600 of your highest resource, as well as 2400 of your highest resource over 20 seconds.
    Always costs your lowest resource.

    Dark Conversion
    new: Increases the amount to 10000/4500/3000, and decrease restore time from 20 to 10 seconds.

    Dark Deal
    new: This skill now costs a filled Soul Gem to use. Enchants your weapon with a trapped Soul for 60 seconds, dealing another 50 (Dark) Magic damage when you deal damage.
    While slotted, killing an enemy fills an empty Soul Gem and restores 1000 Health, Magicka and Stamina.


    Blood Magic
    When you deal damage with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 1800 and restore 200 Magicka and Stamina, up to once every second.

    Of course things could be tweaked here or there, especially the values which I just copypasted, but I think the concept makes sense. The Surges become really powerful offensive fire-and-forget buffs, and dynamic resource costs for skills allow us to consolidate both Dark Exchange morphs into one, freeing up one morph for a long-lasting buff that finally makes effective use of the Blood Magic passive.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • monkidb16_ESO
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    1) You are missing the fact that old Siphoning Attacks requires you to deal light and heavy attack to proc the mag sustain and the heal.

    No, I'm just assuming that people are able to light attack weave, adding in a blue star just to proc is ridiculous. And yeah EleSus is totally busted for and should be nerfed.
    StaticWave wrote: »

    2) 8k HP is IF you cast it back to back. You cast it once, and it would restore 2.6k stam + mag for 4k hp, which is already covered by the HoT from the skill in 4 seconds.
    Its actually 6-7 seconds because of Battle Spirit, and against any PvPer worth their salt you don't get 6 seconds, the moment you drop 4k youre gonna get bursted on.
  • monkidb16_ESO
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    4k HP cost is not a lot if you consider the class's survivability. Because of the fact that it restores 2.6k stam and mag, I could just as easily gain all that HP back by block casting Healthy Offering and dumping my mag for stam

    So spend 2 GCDs to flip health and magicka back and forth just to gain 2600 stam? Why not just heavy attack at that point?
    And good luck trying to block cast all of that when im Streaking through you :D
    StaticWave wrote: »
    I'm calling it right now. NB will become the easiest class to sustain on while having the highest burst in the game.
    I don't know if you have realized it yet, but as things stand Sorcs will get 15k shield + 5k heal on Ward and a total of 50k barrier on minefield next patch (after Battle Spirit mind you), so just sit back and relaxt for those NB "buffs". ;)
  • monkidb16_ESO
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    it also gives a HoT that's better than Crit Surge

    StaticWave wrote: »
    [50k barrier on minefield]


    this only barely puts magsorc on par with NB.

    ok, lol
    Edited by monkidb16_ESO on January 30, 2024 8:31AM
  • MashmalloMan
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    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    StaticWave wrote: »
    4k HP cost is not a lot if you consider the class's survivability. Because of the fact that it restores 2.6k stam and mag, I could just as easily gain all that HP back by block casting Healthy Offering and dumping my mag for stam

    So spend 2 GCDs to flip health and magicka back and forth just to gain 2600 stam? Why not just heavy attack at that point?
    And good luck trying to block cast all of that when im Streaking through you :D
    StaticWave wrote: »
    I'm calling it right now. NB will become the easiest class to sustain on while having the highest burst in the game.
    I don't know if you have realized it yet, but as things stand Sorcs will get 15k shield + 5k heal on Ward and a total of 50k barrier on minefield next patch (after Battle Spirit mind you), so just sit back and relaxt for those NB "buffs". ;)

    I just tested this on PTS, the wards from mines don't stack, they replace the previous ward if it is still active, so no, sorcs will not be getting a "50k barrier on minefield next patch", even before battle spirit. At best sorc is getting an approx 7k shield (post battle spirit) that can be refreshed to last 15 seconds (assuming the sorc remains in the minefield and no-one else takes any of the runes and the wards last the 2 seconds cooldown before another rune can be proc'd on the same person). The duration of the mines (15s) means that you have to deliberately be walking over the runes on cooldown to get the most out of them and even then, you'll often only proc 4/5 runes most of the time due to lag/delay.

    Mines is a group buffing skill, it will buff 5 members of the group with typically a 5-7k shield depending on how invested the sorcerer is into . Expect to see it used in organized groups to add another shield on top of arcanist shields + barrier, or small scales to give the group a shield or by tanky solos running around tight LoS (towers/rocks). Definitely useful, but 100% not as busted as a 50K barrier as claimed.

    He said total. I think he meant over the course of 1 cast, the 5 shields = 50k.

    Which. I mean it's good, but it's never gonna be 50k every cast good. I wouldn't expect a Sorc to stand in the same place for 10-15s walking over each shield to get the most bang for their buck. Being mobile is the name of the game.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Turtle_Bot
    Turtle_Bot
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    I mean, that's still not a 50k shield though, at best its a potentially refreshable 7k shield assuming the sorcerer constantly runs back and forth across the same area 5 times within 15 seconds.

    Like I said, it is definitely a usable skill, but its best use case will be for organized group play as an additional health buffer for turn and burn or as a tank running around a tower/rocks and Hardened Ward is already significantly better for the second case being almost 25% cheaper to cast and providing a heal on top of the bigger shield to bring you out of execute range.
  • olsborg
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    The passive healing just for slotting it is a welcome change imo, BUT the resource given instantly for each active cast at the mere cost of 4k hp is way,way too strong and should get looked at.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Vaqual
    Vaqual
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    There is a huge discrepancy between melee weapons and ranged weapons for leeching/siphoning strikes regarding the realistic value you could get from the skill. If you don't play something with high mobility or the enemy is very elusive, ranged weapons have a significant advantage. I am glad they are trying to close this gap a bit. Let's see in what form this goes live, but so far this is my favourite change.
    Edited by Vaqual on January 30, 2024 10:06AM
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    Ekhem... does anyone remembers how Siphoning Strikes used to work in the past ? I mean like looong time ago ? The OG skill was a "toggle". It did not costed anything, but it was basically like "stance change" or mode button. You gained a benefit & a penalty when it was "on" or something like that. That was kind in line with class theme & would be definitely better if they reworked it back into a toggle. If players have issue with rotation then having to recast it kinda does not help.
  • IncultaWolf
    IncultaWolf
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    I think you just need to swap your main to nightblade already, sorcerer is old news :mrgreen:
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