Update 41 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

Do yall really want this game to be Tekken but with spammable burst heals?

xylena_lazarow
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Stop nerfing pressure damage. Pressure needs to be able to exceed the ridiculous healing capabilities around these days.

Something like the MDW nerf only reduces build diversity, screws solo players, makes the meta more tanky, and screws classes with holes in their toolkits.

I'll adapt to using MDW more as an enabler than a primary damage source and see what spellcrafting brings, but this is a terrible decision. 7815 wd? Pff.
PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps
  • Arcanasx
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    MDW's damage cap should have matched maelstroms 2h weapon damage value of around 6300. The current 7815 is "My weapon damage comes from other player's sets buffing my weapon damage for me." Yet another buff for playing in groups. Master's 2h didn't get the same treatment either, despite being a flat damage bonus.

    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right? I guess all those NBs will finally be able to drop MDW in favor of concealed weapon, because only NB and DK should have access to good instant melee spammables. /s

  • xylena_lazarow
    xylena_lazarow
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right?
    Yea that really threw me. Like, I don't even have a response to how ridiculous that Concealed buff is.

    Also "no major combat changes" then goes and overhauls the entire status effect system.

    Edit: friend on PTS said NB change might not be as ridiculous as feared, PvP sustain is up but Spectral Bow burst is down.
    Edited by xylena_lazarow on January 30, 2024 11:15PM
    PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps
  • Arcanasx
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right?
    Yea that really threw me. Like, I don't even have a response to how ridiculous that Concealed buff is.

    I was already expecting more NB buffs but even I was surprised by the amount of mental gymnastics being displayed for why they need to keep justifying buffing NB for PvP lol.


  • Necrotech_Master
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    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Arcanasx
    Arcanasx
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    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    The point is that the weapon damage value you need to reach the damage cap is absurdly high and basically impractical for solo players to reach.
  • GusTheWizard
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    Well when 80% of pvp builds are abusing this set I understand the change, the main Arcanist build was to throw MDW on and stack max health to be a tank with a 15k damage shield in pvp now those players will need to use a real weapon or spell damage set in turn making them less tanky.
  • Arcanasx
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    Well when 80% of pvp builds are abusing this set I understand the change, the main Arcanist build was to throw MDW on and stack max health to be a tank with a 15k damage shield in pvp now those players will need to use a real weapon or spell damage set in turn making them less tanky.

    It has less to do with "this set is common because its really strong", and more to do with "what else would I use as a melee brawler without a good class spammable since damage generally keeps getting nerfed while survivability remains the same or receives buffs."

    Also, Undeath and Elemental Susceptibility (also more responsible for status effect spam than MDW is), are actually far more common than MDW in PvP, and yet they aren't getting any adjustments whatsoever for some reason...Oh right, they don't show up on your death recap, so they're completely fine as they are I guess.
    Edited by Arcanasx on January 29, 2024 10:52PM
  • GusTheWizard
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Also, Undeath and Elemental Susceptibility (also more responsible for status effect spam than MDW is), are actually far more common than MDW in PvP, and yet they aren't getting any adjustments whatsoever for some reason...Oh right, they don't show up on your death recap, so they're completely fine as they are I guess.

    I don’t really care about the status effect spam of Elemental Susceptibility or Rending by all means use them for that. as far as undeath goes I’ve never had an issue killing anyone through it, really the only people who complain about undeath are pure dot builds, just burst them down there’s so much damage in the game rn (undeath also comes with downsides increased costs to skills/block/dodge/bash/ults, 0 health recovery, 12% flame damage taken). What I do care about is MDW giving 1635 free damage to both initial hits of rending and the 10 ticks that follow, that’s 19620 not including crits or the skills base damage just for free, plus it can be applied with no cooldown on multiple different individuals, off of one 2 piece front bar set, imo this should’ve never made it to live like that and I’m surprise it didn’t get the nerf sooner.
    Edited by GusTheWizard on January 30, 2024 12:12AM
  • Twohothardware
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    This was a good change that wasn't over the top and it's how every proc set should be dealt with. You used to have to get really high weapon/spell damage to get the max damage from proc sets and then they decided they wanted to make proc sets more accessible to the casual player and made them deal a flat damage value regardless of your stats. In doing that they created the current terrible meta we've been in where everyone has 40K health and deals damage with procs.
    Edited by Twohothardware on January 30, 2024 12:27AM
  • xylena_lazarow
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    This was a good change that wasn't over the top and it's how every proc set should be dealt with. You used to have to get really high weapon/spell damage to get the max damage from proc sets and then they decided they wanted to make proc sets more accessible to the casual player and made them deal a flat damage value regardless of your stats. In doing that they created the current terrible meta we've been in where everyone has 40K health and deals damage with procs.
    See the earlier post by @Arcanasx for why 7815 is a ridiculous number and not even aligned with their proc standards.

    Those 40k hp builds do stalemate amounts of damage when on their own, procs or not.
    PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps
  • gariondavey
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    MDW's damage cap should have matched maelstroms 2h weapon damage value of around 6300. The current 7815 is "My weapon damage comes from other player's sets buffing my weapon damage for me." Yet another buff for playing in groups. Master's 2h didn't get the same treatment either, despite being a flat damage bonus.

    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right? I guess all those NBs will finally be able to drop MDW in favor of concealed weapon, because only NB and DK should have access to good instant melee spammables. /s

    Yeah 6300 would be the more appropriate number
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • Twohothardware
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    MDW's damage cap should have matched maelstroms 2h weapon damage value of around 6300. The current 7815 is "My weapon damage comes from other player's sets buffing my weapon damage for me." Yet another buff for playing in groups. Master's 2h didn't get the same treatment either, despite being a flat damage bonus.

    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right? I guess all those NBs will finally be able to drop MDW in favor of concealed weapon, because only NB and DK should have access to good instant melee spammables. /s

    Yeah 6300 would be the more appropriate number

    I don't think so because 6300 weapon/spell damage isn't that hard to hit while still running a defensive set. The point of this change was so that you cannot deal the current MDW damage unless you're a glass cannon.
  • Twohothardware
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    This was a good change that wasn't over the top and it's how every proc set should be dealt with. You used to have to get really high weapon/spell damage to get the max damage from proc sets and then they decided they wanted to make proc sets more accessible to the casual player and made them deal a flat damage value regardless of your stats. In doing that they created the current terrible meta we've been in where everyone has 40K health and deals damage with procs.
    See the earlier post by @Arcanasx for why 7815 is a ridiculous number and not even aligned with their proc standards.

    Those 40k hp builds do stalemate amounts of damage when on their own, procs or not.

    Arcanist builds on live with 40K health actually deal a very good amount of damage with procs and even with other classes you're never facing solo players on these builds in Cyrodiil. You're facing two or three or four of them at the same time.
  • Arcanasx
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Also, Undeath and Elemental Susceptibility (also more responsible for status effect spam than MDW is), are actually far more common than MDW in PvP, and yet they aren't getting any adjustments whatsoever for some reason...Oh right, they don't show up on your death recap, so they're completely fine as they are I guess.

    I don’t really care about the status effect spam of Elemental Susceptibility or Rending by all means use them for that. as far as undeath goes I’ve never had an issue killing anyone through it, really the only people who complain about undeath are pure dot builds, just burst them down there’s so much damage in the game rn (undeath also comes with downsides increased costs to skills/block/dodge/bash/ults, 0 health recovery, 12% flame damage taken). What I do care about is MDW giving 1635 free damage to both initial hits of rending and the 10 ticks that follow, that’s 19620 not including crits or the skills base damage just for free, plus it can be applied with no cooldown on multiple different individuals, off of one 2 piece front bar set, imo this should’ve never made it to live like that and I’m surprise it didn’t get the nerf sooner.

    Undeath is more of a counter against burst builds than DoT builds...especially since it comes with a health recovery reduction which indirectly helps pressure builds while the % damage reduction really mitigates kill secure potential. Also kind of odd to not care about the literally FREE status effect spam coming from what is one of the most overloaded skills in the game that not only doubles as a defensive tool as well, but also is getting yet another indirect BUFF because of the status effect changes. But sure, we need even more players running ice ele sus on the back bar (already more common than MDW already) because that'll totally help improve build diversity, instead of auditing the existing underwhelming arena weapon sets to make them worth using.

    Your calculation for MDW's "free damage" doesn't include battle spirit, armor resistance, and other damage reduction sources either, and the absurd 7.8k weapon damage needed for a CAPPED damage value while Maelstrom 2h is about 6.3k and other uncapped "proc" scaling sets were adjusted around 6.6k weapon damage to match the original damage values, isn't justified either.

    As if ele sus wasn't used enough, Vate Destro also does about two to three times the amount of DoT than the DoT from the MDW bonus itself while also capable of hitting multiple players at the same time with a single free cast. Meanwhile, how many players decide to use rending slashes without MDW? But whatever, Its clear you've got tunnel vision on wanting any purely offensive, dedicated damage sets nerfed even if TTK becomes higher as if heal stacking and stalemating wasn't already an issue.
  • GusTheWizard
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    As if ele sus wasn't used enough, Vate Destro also does about two to three times the amount of DoT than the DoT from the MDW bonus itself while also capable of hitting multiple players at the same time with a single free cast. Meanwhile, how many players decide to use rending slashes without MDW? But whatever, Its clear you've got tunnel vision on wanting any purely offensive, dedicated damage sets nerfed even if TTK becomes higher as if heal stacking and stalemating wasn't already an issue.

    Elemental Susceptibility Is completely different from Elemental Susceptibility with vat desto I don’t like that set either, Elemental Susceptibility and Rending without vat or masters are balanced skills.
  • Arcanasx
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    MDW's damage cap should have matched maelstroms 2h weapon damage value of around 6300. The current 7815 is "My weapon damage comes from other player's sets buffing my weapon damage for me." Yet another buff for playing in groups. Master's 2h didn't get the same treatment either, despite being a flat damage bonus.

    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right? I guess all those NBs will finally be able to drop MDW in favor of concealed weapon, because only NB and DK should have access to good instant melee spammables. /s

    Yeah 6300 would be the more appropriate number

    I don't think so because 6300 weapon/spell damage isn't that hard to hit while still running a defensive set. The point of this change was so that you cannot deal the current MDW damage unless you're a glass cannon.

    Interesting how it went from "tanks shouldn't be able to take full advantage of MDW and that's why it needs to scale" to "you should have to be a glass cannon to be able to get most of the value from MDW now, unless you play with others who can buff your weapon damage for you."

    Regardless, 7.8k weapon damage is absurdly high even for "glass cannon" builds (can't forget about pen and crit damage investment you know) unless you play in a group where you can benefit from multiple group buff sets. Even the uncapped scaling damage sets are around 6.6k weapon damage (for original flat damage values), so Imagine how much better these other sets will be for a build that does manage to get 7.8k weapon damage...
    Edited by Arcanasx on January 30, 2024 2:08AM
  • GusTheWizard
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Undeath is more of a counter against burst builds than DoT builds...especially since it comes with a health recovery reduction which indirectly helps pressure builds while the % damage reduction really mitigates kill secure potential.

    I don’t think you understand how undeath works if I hit someone with a 9k shalks and 12k dawny at 70% health all at once and kill them they’ll only have gotten 9%-ish of their undeath passive. If I’m trying to slowly burn someone down with dots slowly getting them lower and lower my dots will keep doing less damage with each tick at 20% health they’ll have 26% mitigation from undeath

    Also the health recovery reduction is for the player who has undeath, not the person they’re fighting.
    Edited by GusTheWizard on January 30, 2024 2:39AM
  • MashmalloMan
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Arcanasx wrote: »
    MDW's damage cap should have matched maelstroms 2h weapon damage value of around 6300. The current 7815 is "My weapon damage comes from other player's sets buffing my weapon damage for me." Yet another buff for playing in groups. Master's 2h didn't get the same treatment either, despite being a flat damage bonus.

    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right? I guess all those NBs will finally be able to drop MDW in favor of concealed weapon, because only NB and DK should have access to good instant melee spammables. /s

    Yeah 6300 would be the more appropriate number

    I don't think so because 6300 weapon/spell damage isn't that hard to hit while still running a defensive set. The point of this change was so that you cannot deal the current MDW damage unless you're a glass cannon.

    Interesting how it went from "tanks shouldn't be able to take full advantage of MDW and that's why it needs to scale" to "you should have to be a glass cannon to be able to get most of the value from MDW now, unless you play with others who can buff your weapon damage for you."

    Regardless, 7.8k weapon damage is absurdly high even for "glass cannon" builds (can't forget about pen and crit damage investment you know) unless you play in a group where you can benefit from multiple group buff sets. Even the uncapped scaling damage sets are around 6.6k weapon damage (for original flat damage values), so Imagine how much better these other sets will be for a build that does manage to get 7.8k weapon damage...

    Really unfortunate. I can't see my Stam Sorc ever coming close to 7.8k weapon damage unless every one of my sets was dedicated to damage bonuses instead of trying to get some penetration or crit to which I need to proc Crit Surge reliably.

    Gee it sure would be nice to get Surge heals for dealing any type of damage. It would also be nice to get Major Savagery/Prophecy passively for having my most common class skill slotted. Maybe I could find a way to get +600 weapon damage coming out of stealth or +100 from guaranteed sundered.. Too bad, I forgot I'm not a NB. It's not like they don't already have a great instant melee spammable other classes use a 2 piece set to replicate.

    Lol yeah jokes aside, 7800 is just too high, without the full bonus upfront, it starts to dip out of spammable territory and into hot dog water. Not sure why they chose this number when 6600ish for sets has been the go to.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on January 30, 2024 2:40AM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Galeriano
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    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep dmg
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    Edited by Galeriano on January 30, 2024 3:03AM
  • MashmalloMan
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    I'd equate that to a bug seeing as they said "up to 1635" in the patch notes. It seems unreasonable to allow it infinite scaling like that.

    Did you test it on a target to see if this is just the tooltip?
    Edited by MashmalloMan on January 30, 2024 3:00AM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Arcanasx
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    That doesn't seem intended according to how the PTS notes were written. Now, it would also be interesting to see what tooltip values you'd reach with sets like Rushing Agony, Zaan's, Relequen, Vate destro, etc at 12.9k weapon damage, if they still do continue to scale to that point.
  • Galeriano
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    As if ele sus wasn't used enough, Vate Destro also does about two to three times the amount of DoT than the DoT from the MDW bonus itself while also capable of hitting multiple players at the same time with a single free cast. Meanwhile, how many players decide to use rending slashes without MDW? But whatever, Its clear you've got tunnel vision on wanting any purely offensive, dedicated damage sets nerfed even if TTK becomes higher as if heal stacking and stalemating wasn't already an issue.

    Elemental Susceptibility Is completely different from Elemental Susceptibility with vat desto I don’t like that set either, Elemental Susceptibility and Rending without vat or masters are balanced skills.

    I am not sure about elemental susceptibility after new patch. These new values on status effects can be a bit too much tbh and can make ele sus pretty unbalanced especially for classes that have passive buffs to status effects. From what I've seen on PTS ele sus is dealing damage equal to 40-50% of regular spammable ability while being completly free to cast and that was on a sorc which doesn't have buffs to status effects like DK, warden or arcanist so these classes could deal even around 60% of regular spammable dmg with ele sus spam. Let's keep in mind that we're talking about very long range, long lasting, undodgable free to cast ability.
    Edited by Galeriano on January 30, 2024 3:55AM
  • Arcanasx
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Arcanasx wrote: »
    MDW's damage cap should have matched maelstroms 2h weapon damage value of around 6300. The current 7815 is "My weapon damage comes from other player's sets buffing my weapon damage for me." Yet another buff for playing in groups. Master's 2h didn't get the same treatment either, despite being a flat damage bonus.

    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right? I guess all those NBs will finally be able to drop MDW in favor of concealed weapon, because only NB and DK should have access to good instant melee spammables. /s

    Yeah 6300 would be the more appropriate number

    I don't think so because 6300 weapon/spell damage isn't that hard to hit while still running a defensive set. The point of this change was so that you cannot deal the current MDW damage unless you're a glass cannon.

    Interesting how it went from "tanks shouldn't be able to take full advantage of MDW and that's why it needs to scale" to "you should have to be a glass cannon to be able to get most of the value from MDW now, unless you play with others who can buff your weapon damage for you."

    Regardless, 7.8k weapon damage is absurdly high even for "glass cannon" builds (can't forget about pen and crit damage investment you know) unless you play in a group where you can benefit from multiple group buff sets. Even the uncapped scaling damage sets are around 6.6k weapon damage (for original flat damage values), so Imagine how much better these other sets will be for a build that does manage to get 7.8k weapon damage...

    Really unfortunate. I can't see my Stam Sorc ever coming close to 7.8k weapon damage unless every one of my sets was dedicated to damage bonuses instead of trying to get some penetration or crit to which I need to proc Crit Surge reliably.

    Gee it sure would be nice to get Surge heals for dealing any type of damage. It would also be nice to get Major Savagery/Prophecy passively for having my most common class skill slotted. Maybe I could find a way to get +600 weapon damage coming out of stealth or +100 from guaranteed sundered.. Too bad, I forgot I'm not a NB. It's not like they don't already have a great instant melee spammable other classes use a 2 piece set to replicate.

    Lol yeah jokes aside, 7800 is just too high, without the full bonus upfront, it starts to dip out of spammable territory and into hot dog water. Not sure why they chose this number when 6600ish for sets has been the go to.

    You have to wonder where they even got the idea to have 7800 as the number to reach the original damage value (and apparently supposed to be capped as well) when maelstrom's capped value is at 6300. What arcane spreadsheet methods are they using now to determine why an arena weapon that was last changed over 44 months ago with the intention of having near spammable levels of damage, suddenly needs a significant nerf while the class that already has the best spammable gets even more buffs for PvP?
    Edited by Arcanasx on January 30, 2024 3:28AM
  • Arcanasx
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    Arcanasx wrote: »
    As if ele sus wasn't used enough, Vate Destro also does about two to three times the amount of DoT than the DoT from the MDW bonus itself while also capable of hitting multiple players at the same time with a single free cast. Meanwhile, how many players decide to use rending slashes without MDW? But whatever, Its clear you've got tunnel vision on wanting any purely offensive, dedicated damage sets nerfed even if TTK becomes higher as if heal stacking and stalemating wasn't already an issue.

    Elemental Susceptibility Is completely different from Elemental Susceptibility with vat desto I don’t like that set either, Elemental Susceptibility and Rending without vat or masters are balanced skills.

    I am not sure about elemental susceptibility after new patch. These new values on status effects can be a bit too much tbh and can make ele sus pretty unbalanced especially for classes that have passive buffs to status effects. From what I've seen on PTS ele sus is dealing damage equal to 40-50% of regular spammable ability while being completly free to cast and that was on a sorc which doesn't have buffs to status effects like DK, warden or necro so these classes could deal even around 60% of regular spammable dmg with ele sus spam. Let's keep in mind that we're talking about very long range, long lasting, undodgable free to cast ability.

    There's also the Infinite Archives to consider too. As if it wasn't strong enough there already as well.
  • Galeriano
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Arcanasx wrote: »
    MDW's damage cap should have matched maelstroms 2h weapon damage value of around 6300. The current 7815 is "My weapon damage comes from other player's sets buffing my weapon damage for me." Yet another buff for playing in groups. Master's 2h didn't get the same treatment either, despite being a flat damage bonus.

    Concealed weapon however, it really needed that buff though right? I guess all those NBs will finally be able to drop MDW in favor of concealed weapon, because only NB and DK should have access to good instant melee spammables. /s

    Yeah 6300 would be the more appropriate number

    I don't think so because 6300 weapon/spell damage isn't that hard to hit while still running a defensive set. The point of this change was so that you cannot deal the current MDW damage unless you're a glass cannon.

    Interesting how it went from "tanks shouldn't be able to take full advantage of MDW and that's why it needs to scale" to "you should have to be a glass cannon to be able to get most of the value from MDW now, unless you play with others who can buff your weapon damage for you."

    Regardless, 7.8k weapon damage is absurdly high even for "glass cannon" builds (can't forget about pen and crit damage investment you know) unless you play in a group where you can benefit from multiple group buff sets. Even the uncapped scaling damage sets are around 6.6k weapon damage (for original flat damage values), so Imagine how much better these other sets will be for a build that does manage to get 7.8k weapon damage...

    Really unfortunate. I can't see my Stam Sorc ever coming close to 7.8k weapon damage unless every one of my sets was dedicated to damage bonuses instead of trying to get some penetration or crit to which I need to proc Crit Surge reliably.

    Gee it sure would be nice to get Surge heals for dealing any type of damage. It would also be nice to get Major Savagery/Prophecy passively for having my most common class skill slotted. Maybe I could find a way to get +600 weapon damage coming out of stealth or +100 from guaranteed sundered.. Too bad, I forgot I'm not a NB. It's not like they don't already have a great instant melee spammable other classes use a 2 piece set to replicate.

    Lol yeah jokes aside, 7800 is just too high, without the full bonus upfront, it starts to dip out of spammable territory and into hot dog water. Not sure why they chose this number when 6600ish for sets has been the go to.

    You have to wonder where they even got the idea to have 7800 as the number to reach the original damage value (and apparently supposed to be capped as well) when maelstrom's capped value is at 6300. What arcane spreadsheet methods are they using now to determine why an arena weapon that was last changed over 44 months ago with the intention of having near spammable levels of damage suddenly needs a significant nerf while the class that already has the best spammable gets even more buffs for PvP?

    I think You're looking at it from the wrong angle. First of all that value doesn't seem to be caped so it seems they're treating MWD like standard proc set now. I think they just wanted to nerf the weapons and they set their desired goal at standard 6,6k but that desired goal is simply lower than it used to be and is now sitting at 1380 dmg instead of 1635. That being said like with every traditional proc set You can push it further and You will reach old value eventually but old value is not their standard anymore.

    In short they want for average PvP setup to just reach their new standard value of around 1,3-1,4k. Why it was changed? Because MDW finally found itself in enviroment where it started to be really strong. Sometimes it takes time. During that 4 years there were many things that were holding MDW back from stepping into the stage. When it comes to sets sometimes for them to be buffed they just need to not get nerfed for long enough.
  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    I'd equate that to a bug seeing as they said "up to 1635" in the patch notes. It seems unreasonable to allow it infinite scaling like that.

    Did you test it on a target to see if this is just the tooltip?
    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Galeriano wrote: »
    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    That doesn't seem intended according to how the PTS notes were written. Now, it would also be interesting to see what tooltip values you'd reach with sets like Rushing Agony, Zaan's, Relequen, Vate destro, etc at 12.9k weapon damage, if they still do continue to scale to that point.

    Yuu both seem to be reading patch notes incorrectly. They don't say new value is set up to 1635 they are saying old value was up to 1635.

    It says quote "This set’s damage done bonus now scales off 20.925% of the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage, RATHER than offering a flat bonus based on the item level, up to 1635"
    Word rather is a key here. It means now this set will be scaling from 21% of user's wep/spell dmg rather than having old value of up to 1635. Why they've used phrase "up to"? Because it was maximum value when user had 2x CP 160 gold quality weapons but not having that perfect combo would result with slightly lower value.
  • Arcanasx
    Arcanasx
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    Galeriano wrote: »
    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    I'd equate that to a bug seeing as they said "up to 1635" in the patch notes. It seems unreasonable to allow it infinite scaling like that.

    Did you test it on a target to see if this is just the tooltip?
    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Galeriano wrote: »
    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    That doesn't seem intended according to how the PTS notes were written. Now, it would also be interesting to see what tooltip values you'd reach with sets like Rushing Agony, Zaan's, Relequen, Vate destro, etc at 12.9k weapon damage, if they still do continue to scale to that point.

    Yuu both seem to be reading patch notes incorrectly. They don't say new value is set up to 1635 they are saying old value was up to 1635.

    It says quote "This set’s damage done bonus now scales off 20.925% of the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage, RATHER than offering a flat bonus based on the item level, up to 1635"
    Word rather is a key here. It means now this set will be scaling from 21% of user's wep/spell dmg rather than having old value of up to 1635. Why they've used phrase "up to"? Because it was maximum value when user had 2x CP 160 gold quality weapons but not having that perfect combo would result with slightly lower value.

    If that's the intention, given their reasoning for the change, you'd think they would also apply the same logic to other flat damage bonuses from other sets, but its just MDW which is quite odd. I also think their reasoning of "allowing tanks to do too much damage with it" is off the mark because it isn't uniquely MDW enabling tanks to do damage.

    They also seem to not have taken into consideration how easy it is to stack 40k hp with undeath and use an over-tuned, ranged, no resource costing, force amplifying weapon that is also the greatest source of status effect spam, and that also doubles as a defensive backbar with the incredibly strong heals and shields that we have now. Because with that, any build can become a "tank with damage."

    But sure, MDW was more of an issue according to those who still think concealed weapon and elemental susceptibility needs PvP buffs, and sets like Ice Vate Destro with ele sus, Jerral Mountain's, Relequen and rushing agony are currently fine.
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    Galeriano wrote: »
    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    I'd equate that to a bug seeing as they said "up to 1635" in the patch notes. It seems unreasonable to allow it infinite scaling like that.

    Did you test it on a target to see if this is just the tooltip?
    Arcanasx wrote: »
    Galeriano wrote: »
    my understanding of the change is its ~21% of the highest of your weapon and spell dmg, capping at the current value of 1635 additional dmg

    so it only really hurts low dmg specs from benefitting from the bonus too much

    It actually have no cap of 1635 at 7,8k wep/spell dmg and it continues to scale further above that value although somwhere around 10k wep/spell dmg scaling seems to be getting weaker. Here is a value with 12,9k wep
    b1bhzu8pl3yu.png

    That doesn't seem intended according to how the PTS notes were written. Now, it would also be interesting to see what tooltip values you'd reach with sets like Rushing Agony, Zaan's, Relequen, Vate destro, etc at 12.9k weapon damage, if they still do continue to scale to that point.

    Yuu both seem to be reading patch notes incorrectly. They don't say new value is set up to 1635 they are saying old value was up to 1635.

    It says quote "This set’s damage done bonus now scales off 20.925% of the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage, RATHER than offering a flat bonus based on the item level, up to 1635"
    Word rather is a key here. It means now this set will be scaling from 21% of user's wep/spell dmg rather than having old value of up to 1635. Why they've used phrase "up to"? Because it was maximum value when user had 2x CP 160 gold quality weapons but not having that perfect combo would result with slightly lower value.

    Well you're probably right, but that is terribly worded.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    But sure, MDW was more of an issue according to those who still think concealed weapon and elemental susceptibility needs PvP buffs, and sets like Ice Vate Destro with ele sus, Jerral Mountain's, Relequen and rushing agony are currently fine.

    This is the weird part for me, if they're aware of MDW being a problem, why did they leave every other culprit the same.

    Not even just Vat Destro, Ele Sus is even more of a must have seeing as status effects were buffed too.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Arcanasx
    Arcanasx
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    Arcanasx wrote: »
    But sure, MDW was more of an issue according to those who still think concealed weapon and elemental susceptibility needs PvP buffs, and sets like Ice Vate Destro with ele sus, Jerral Mountain's, Relequen and rushing agony are currently fine.

    This is the weird part for me, if they're aware of MDW being a problem, why did they leave every other culprit the same.

    Not even just Vat Destro, Ele Sus is even more of a must have seeing as status effects were buffed too.

    I mentioned Vate destro because next patch its easily going to achieve more than three times the DPS compared to MDW if we're comparing the DoT DPS only. And then you have ele sus which is insanely overloaded on top of that; stronger than Vate destro itself and especially compared to rending slashes without MDW.

    This targeted nerf likely happened because the forums were complaining about MDW more than the other sets simply because it started showing up on more death recaps in recent times, and not because they suddenly decided to "correct" or "update" their spreadsheet balancing after 44 months of baking for MDW's case. Otherwise, we'd see a lot more changes happening to the other strong(er) sets, mythics, (and skills) at the same time as well.

    The issue I find with the "MDW has become too strong because of these other changes that have happened since then" reasoning that's also somewhat common on the forums, is that these other problematic changes introduced since then are still going to continue to be problematic regardless of MDW getting practically nerfed for solo players, especially when they decide to indirectly buff ele sus...

    I mean, it also goes to show that they also must believe MDW is stronger and more of a problem than undeath too. And it seems like they haven't even bothered to take a look at bringing up other underperforming arena weapons like Maelstrom dw or BRP 2h...
    Edited by Arcanasx on January 30, 2024 6:38AM
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