Where are all the children?

Pixiepumpkin · January 21

SilverBride wrote: »

They introduced adult female dwarfs, not children. Huge difference.

SilverBride wrote: »

The context of the suggestion does matter. So let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The context is that you asserted that there is "huge difference" between female dwarves and chidren. But the discussion in this thread, and more importantly the person you quoted is not about the difference between female dwarves and children, its about developers listening to the requests of the community and that is why @Vaqual used LOTR as a comparison.

That develoment team listened to their player base and implemented female dwarves. That is what the discussion is about, not about the difference between female dwarves and children. Ergo, there is no huge difference because the topic is not about the difference between female dwarves and children, the topic is about developers listening to the customer/player base.

Vaqual · January 21

I do not really get what would be so disturbing about children compared to giant spiders, the undead, khajit roleplayers and login queues. I am not trying to pry, since this is anyway only a minor issue (pun intended), but regardless what personal reasons might have, something as mundane as children NPCs is surely not a problematic topic for the general playerbase.

SilverBride · January 21

Vaqual wrote: »

I do not really get what would be so disturbing about children compared to giant spiders, the undead, khajit roleplayers and login queues.

Children are innocent and are vulnerable in many ways. Giant spiders and undead are dangerous enemies that need to be dealt with to keep Tamriel safe.

Khajiit roleplayers and login queues are not game features.

Ingenon · January 21

Vargr wrote: »

As the title says where are all the children, babies, and pregnant women/mer? The closest I can find are argonian eggs which as far as i can tell hatch as full adults. What horrible cataclysm took place that wiped out all the children? I can't be the only one to have noticed this!

There are lots of children in ESO, On PS/NA server they are on zone chat all day. /s

Oh, you meant in game, not playing the game and filling zone chat with juvenile chatter. ZOS probably excluded children, babies, and pregnant women/mer because some player would discover a way to do things to them that would upset others playing the game.

MidniteOwl1913 · January 21

There aren't any baby animals either, not really. If you look at the names the smaller versions of things have "lesser" or "ette" instead of something that would indicate youth.

Vaqual · January 21

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61825

Ajaxandriel · January 22

Castagere wrote: »

It prevents child murder.

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a huge difference. Children are vulnerable in ways that adults aren't. Bringing children into this game would open a huge can of worms and make a lot of players uncomfortable.

Friendly NPCs can't be harmed anyway, so this explanation does not explain much

SilverBride · January 22

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a huge difference. Children are vulnerable in ways that adults aren't. Bringing children into this game would open a huge can of worms and make a lot of players uncomfortable.

Friendly NPCs can't be harmed anyway, so this explanation does not explain much.

This:

Ingenon wrote: »

ZOS probably excluded children, babies, and pregnant women/mer because some player would discover a way to do things to them that would upset others playing the game.

Amottica · January 22

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

I find it disturbing that so many people are fixated on this. (your thread is far from being the first on the topic, OP.)

This isn't a Sims game; it doesn't have to be a direct analog of real-life.

Let. It. Go.

Fantasy games are far from an analog of real life. It is not a big deal and does not detract from the game.

Elsonso · January 22

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

It prevents child murder.

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a huge difference. Children are vulnerable in ways that adults aren't. Bringing children into this game would open a huge can of worms and make a lot of players uncomfortable.

Friendly NPCs can't be harmed anyway, so this explanation does not explain much

Sadly, there are enough emotes in the game that someone could probably make it look that way.

Syldras · January 23

Vaqual wrote: »

Childhood is an interesting stage in life since a child is comparatively defenseless, inexperienced and impressionable. This opens up ways to set up plots that would make a lot less sense for adult characters (saving imbeciles is annoying). Also they are useful to believably increase the emotional gravity of a situation.

I know some people will strongly disagree, but no, for me, it doesn't matter at all if a child, teen, adult in their prime of life, or an elderly person is in danger. They're all humans and age shouldn't measure a person's worth, nothing should. So while a child is more helpless than an adult person (although one could argue if some adults aren't just as helpless, for example some of the elderly or some people with disabilities), it still doesn't "increase the emotional gravity" for me in any way. No matter what age people are, they are all living, breathing, feeling and sentient beings just the same, so I make no difference when it comes to sympathy. And of course that doesn't change in any way when it's about immersing myself into a fictional story.

I understand that with kids, partly other stories could be narrated. But in the end, what difference would it make if a bandit kidnaps someone's daughter instead of someone's wife? Does it really matter if we search for a child that disappeared while hunting butterflies or a group of scholars during an expedition (or a group of hunters, or wedding guests on their way to a party, or a farmer on his way to the market to sell crops)?

Vaqual wrote: »

Babies could literally be non-interactable world decorations/furnishings or part of the mother-NPCs mesh.

I'm not sure if it's immersive in any way if they lie around like dolls or loaves of bread.

Amottica wrote: »

Fantasy games are far from an analog of real life.

So why the need for child npcs then?

KaosWarMonk · January 23

There was a MW (and OB I think) mod that added kids running around, playing games. They were invulnerable and if you tried to hurt them they just ran away or ignored you.

It did actually make quite a difference to the ambience around towns/villages.

Muizer · January 23

Yes, I have never seen any pregnant women or children in ESO. I have seen many doors with chains drawn across them, so I suppose we can always imagine they're there....

Tyrion87 · January 23

The disappearance of children is more mysterious than the disappearance of Falinesti.

And the fact that we can craft things like this:

is wierd and creepy to say the least.

Syldras · January 23

Tyrion87 wrote: »

And the fact that we can craft things like this:

is wierd and creepy to say the least.

Who ever said this was for humans? It's for dogs.

Vaqual · January 23

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Childhood is an interesting stage in life since a child is comparatively defenseless, inexperienced and impressionable. This opens up ways to set up plots that would make a lot less sense for adult characters (saving imbeciles is annoying). Also they are useful to believably increase the emotional gravity of a situation.

I know some people will strongly disagree, but no, for me, it doesn't matter at all if a child, teen, adult in their prime of life, or an elderly person is in danger. They're all humans and age shouldn't measure a person's worth, nothing should. So while a child is more helpless than an adult person (although one could argue if some adults aren't just as helpless, for example some of the elderly or some people with disabilities), it still doesn't "increase the emotional gravity" for me in any way. No matter what age people are, they are all living, breathing, feeling and sentient beings just the same, so I make no difference when it comes to sympathy. And of course that doesn't change in any way when it's about immersing myself into a fictional story.

I understand that with kids, partly other stories could be narrated. But in the end, what difference would it make if a bandit kidnaps someone's daughter instead of someone's wife? Does it really matter if we search for a child that disappeared while hunting butterflies or a group of scholars during an expedition (or a group of hunters, or wedding guests on their way to a party, or a farmer on his way to the market to sell crops)?

Vaqual wrote: »

Babies could literally be non-interactable world decorations/furnishings or part of the mother-NPCs mesh.

I'm not sure if it's immersive in any way if they lie around like dolls or loaves of bread.

Amottica wrote: »

Fantasy games are far from an analog of real life.

So why the need for child npcs then?

I think you are overvaluing this. Children are just normal, I don't get why there is this weird emotional barrier. But yes, as you said: different stories can be told. Also, there is no reason to give it this humanitarian "everyone is worth saving spin". This is about a video game and the pragmatic nature of building interesting plots. I am not even invested in this topic, but you people are so foreign to me. I understand verbally what you are saying, but I can not relate one bit.

Tyrion87 · January 23

Syldras wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

And the fact that we can craft things like this:

is wierd and creepy to say the least.

Who ever said this was for humans? It's for dogs.

Unfortunately the game tells you that since the name of this furniture is: Breton Cradle, Infant

Syldras · January 23

Vaqual wrote: »

I think you are overvaluing this.

I was replying to your statement that involving children in the quest would make them emotionally more intense. I stated that for me, it makes no difference.

Vaqual wrote: »

Children are just normal,

Exactly, that's the reason I'm not sure why ZOS would have to make efforts to suddenly include them after 10 years (while there are so many more pressing things ZOS should take care of), because they're normal people just like everyone else. So it makes no difference for me whether to save a kid or an adult in a quest.

Vaqual wrote: »

I don't get why there is this weird emotional barrier.

About that, you have to ask other people, because my reasoning is that I don't see a difference emotionwise, so the effort of designing kid characters, writing dialogues, voicing them, creating idle animations seems like a lot of wasted time to me.

Vaqual wrote: »

Also, there is no reason to give it this humanitarian "everyone is worth saving spin". This is about a video game and the pragmatic nature of building interesting plots.

This is not about humanitarian ideals, but about the fact that it makes no difference to me whether I save a child in this game or an adult. Is it so hard to understand that it really doesn't matter to some people?

Vaqual wrote: »

I am not even invested in this topic, but you people are so foreign to me. I understand verbally what you are saying, but I can not relate one bit.

Who is "you people"?

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Unfortunately the game tells you that since the name of this furniture is: Breton Cradle, Infant

"Breton" is actually a good point:

Dogs are unable to speak, so this cradle can also be used by dogs

Tyrion87 · January 23

Syldras wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Unfortunately the game tells you that since the name of this furniture is: Breton Cradle, Infant

"Breton" is actually a good point:

Dogs are unable to speak, so this cradle can also be used by dogs

Haha I would give you a Kuta for your effort of googling that

Syldras · January 23

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Haha I would give you a Kuta for your effort of googling that

I knew it (being a studied historian who also knows Latin), so the real effort was just finding a nice chart as a proof

ClowdyAllDay · January 23

So. If there are people in the game who would make untoward representations involving children if children existed in game then perhaps adding children is the thing to do. If people then engage in such behaviors they can be promptly gotten rid of and the community is better as a whole without them. We should also then refer such persons to the authorities for investigation into lucid activities involving children. Seems to me that adding children in the game would be good for everyone.

Vaqual · January 23

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I think you are overvaluing this.

I was replying to your statement that involving children in the quest would make them emotionally more intense. I stated that for me, it makes no difference.

Vaqual wrote: »

Children are just normal,

Exactly, that's the reason I'm not sure why ZOS would have to make efforts to suddenly include them after 10 years (while there are so many more pressing things ZOS should take care of), because they're normal people just like everyone else. So it makes no difference for me whether to save a kid or an adult in a quest.

Vaqual wrote: »

I don't get why there is this weird emotional barrier.

About that, you have to ask other people, because my reasoning is that I don't see a difference emotionwise, so the effort of designing kid characters, writing dialogues, voicing them, creating idle animations seems like a lot of wasted time to me.

Vaqual wrote: »

Also, there is no reason to give it this humanitarian "everyone is worth saving spin". This is about a video game and the pragmatic nature of building interesting plots.

This is not about humanitarian ideals, but about the fact that it makes no difference to me whether I save a child in this game or an adult. Is it so hard to understand that it really doesn't matter to some people?

Vaqual wrote: »

I am not even invested in this topic, but you people are so foreign to me. I understand verbally what you are saying, but I can not relate one bit.

Who is "you people"?

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Unfortunately the game tells you that since the name of this furniture is: Breton Cradle, Infant

"Breton" is actually a good point:

Dogs are unable to speak, so this cradle can also be used by dogs

Ok fair points. I guess I read a bit much into it. Still, same argument from my side in the end. It makes a difference if you are saving/helping helpless children, fools, unlucky sods, turncoats, allies etc. These are all different characters, where different stories can be told. Lets just take the Aventus Aretino quest from Skyrim. A guy asks you to kill his torturer. The entire quest hinged on him being a child. That is what gave that quest its substance (not trying to debate the quality of the quest). Or the botchling in the Witcher III: Would there have been so much implicit emotional conflict if the Baron was trying to dig up his uncle? What brought Ebenezer Scrooge around in the end? I feel I am spelling out the obvious here, but good storytelling always plays with emotions.
Now imagine an NPC. He has to decide wether he will take the risky approach. He has a fully grown daughter in one version and a young child (who he visibly interacts with, a tangible sympathetic character that the player can relate to, in both cases). Knowing nothing else about these characters but this, what would enhance the internal conflict the character goes through more?
There is an intuitive emotional connection that can be transported with children as plot devices, to raise stakes. They are often a metaphor for future prospects and where the loss of child who didn't get to live a fulfilling life is considered traumatizing.
Children who have been mistreated in young years can be permanently emotionally damaged. Who is suffering more at the hand of their captors just by merit of being torn out of their home? A child or a seasoned veteran?
Or there is an annoying smug brat and you get to lock his arrogant father up? Very satisfying quest reward.

I could go on for a long time, but I anyway feel like this is painfully obvious. But yes, I do think there is an inherent emotional difference to it, when children are involved. They are an inseparable part of humanity. Bla bla better plots, immersion, what I said before. And no, it is not a priority that they include them. I just agree with OP that it is weird that they are not there and that there is untapped potential. If they never bring any, fine. I just don't get why.

And if you are cool with plain and redundant quests: good for you.

CrazyKitty · January 23

Games rates "M" don't need kids. There's plenty of them in real life.

peacenote · January 23

disky wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

I find it disturbing that so many people are fixated on this. (your thread is far from being the first on the topic, OP.)

This isn't a Sims game; it doesn't have to be a direct analog of real-life.

Let. It. Go.

I understand the point, personally. Kids existed in Skyrim, no reason they couldn't exist in ESO with similar "essential" mechanics. Not that ESO and Skyrim are anywhere near the same, but from a world and content perspective, they could exist, and I feel like non-adults do make the game feel a little more realistic. Because of course there would be kids in the world, somewhere, and it just feels a little odd that they're nowhere to be found.

Yea. I'm not remotely "fixated" on it, but I really don't see the harm/problem in adding them and having them be un-killable and immune to the Blade of Woe. It could give us some new stories. It could help with world-building and immersion. It could add to the cuteness factor like the dogs and cats do. Baby khajiit, anyone? It also doesn't seem creepy at all to me -- much less weird than the possibility of introducing romance with thousands of different players romancing the same NPCs!

Syldras · January 23

Vaqual wrote: »

Now imagine an NPC. He has to decide wether he will take the risky approach. He has a fully grown daughter in one version and a young child (who he visibly interacts with, a tangible sympathetic character that the player can relate to, in both cases). Knowing nothing else about these characters but this, what would enhance the internal conflict the character goes through more?

The thing making the emotional difference is not the age of the kid, but the degree of helplessness. It wouldn't be any less tragic if it was the helpless grandma duffering from dementia who can't take care of herself.

Vaqual wrote: »

There is an intuitive emotional connection that can be transported with children as plot devices, to raise stakes. They are often a metaphor for future prospects and where the loss of child who didn't get to live a fulfilling life is considered traumatizing.

That's a personal sentiment. To me, a lost life is a lost life.

Vaqual wrote: »

Children who have been mistreated in young years can be permanently emotionally damaged.

Trauma can ruin everyone, also adults.

Vaqual wrote: »

I could go on for a long time, but I anyway feel like this is painfully obvious. But yes, I do think there is an inherent emotional difference to it, when children are involved. They are an inseparable part of humanity.

Men and women are an inseparable part of humanity, too. Without them, kids wouldn't even exist.

Vaqual wrote: »

And if you are cool with plain and redundant quests: good for you.

I'm all for good quest designs and interesting writing. I just don't think changing the age of the npc quest giver makes any difference. It's just superficial make-up, if that's the only change. A stupid boring fetch quest is a stupid boring fetch quest, no matter if we have to bring an adult Breton farmer his farming tools or a kid their stolen toy. Actually the situation would even be more severe for the farmer, because without his tools, he couldn't harvest his crops, the harvest would be destroyed, meaning he (and his family members) would end of without food and money.

Syldras · January 23

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

So. If there are people in the game who would make untoward representations involving children if children existed in game then perhaps adding children is the thing to do. If people then engage in such behaviors they can be promptly gotten rid of and the community is better as a whole without them. We should also then refer such persons to the authorities for investigation into lucid activities involving children. Seems to me that adding children in the game would be good for everyone.

I have no clue what "untoward representations" and "lucid activities" are, but if you mean violence towards child npcs: While I think it's stupid to behave like that in a game, I'd find it just as questionable to report fictional behaviour towards pixels to authorities, assuming that juvenile edgelord behavior in a game would mean anything about how the person behaves towards real life children. My point is this: Blurring the lines between fiction and reality is not a good idea, otherwise people "murdering" npcs in a game would probably be next ("Why does he murder them? He must enjoy it, he's probably sick, therefore a danger to society!").

Vaqual · January 23

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Now imagine an NPC. He has to decide wether he will take the risky approach. He has a fully grown daughter in one version and a young child (who he visibly interacts with, a tangible sympathetic character that the player can relate to, in both cases). Knowing nothing else about these characters but this, what would enhance the internal conflict the character goes through more?

The thing making the emotional difference is not the age of the kid, but the degree of helplessness. It wouldn't be any less tragic if it was the helpless grandma duffering from dementia who can't take care of herself.

Vaqual wrote: »

There is an intuitive emotional connection that can be transported with children as plot devices, to raise stakes. They are often a metaphor for future prospects and where the loss of child who didn't get to live a fulfilling life is considered traumatizing.

That's a personal sentiment. To me, a lost life is a lost life.

Vaqual wrote: »

Children who have been mistreated in young years can be permanently emotionally damaged.

Trauma can ruin everyone, also adults.

Vaqual wrote: »

I could go on for a long time, but I anyway feel like this is painfully obvious. But yes, I do think there is an inherent emotional difference to it, when children are involved. They are an inseparable part of humanity.

Men and women are an inseparable part of humanity, too. Without them, kids wouldn't even exist.

Vaqual wrote: »

And if you are cool with plain and redundant quests: good for you.

I'm all for good quest designs and interesting writing. I just don't think changing the age of the npc quest giver makes any difference. It's just superficial make-up, if that's the only change. A stupid boring fetch quest is a stupid boring fetch quest, no matter if we have to bring an adult Breton farmer his farming tools or a kid their stolen toy. Actually the situation would even be more severe for the farmer, because without his tools, he couldn't harvest his crops, the harvest would be destroyed, meaning he (and his family members) would end of without food and money.

But the thing is, with these shallow world quests, you have to transport a lot on the implicit layer. Exploiting humans instinct just makes it easier. Either you are genuinely wired differently, or you are making it too easy for yourself.

Syldras · January 23

Vaqual wrote: »

But the thing is, with these shallow world quests, you have to transport a lot on the implicit layer. Exploiting humans instinct just makes it easier.

But wouldn't actually good writing be a better solution than just the usual bad writing with an emotional ploy as a tear-jerker (children and small animals usually work)?

Vaqual wrote: »

Either you are genuinely wired differently, or you are making it too easy for yourself.

There are probably two aspects in which my character differs from the majority (although I'm not the only one, most of my friends aren't that different to me): I know cultural expectations, but don't care much for them. I am more rational than sentimental. And from that perspective, a human is a human, age doesn't change the worth of a person in any way. And a helpless person is a helpless person, no matter which age.

Vaqual wrote: »

Maybe there are cultural differences, but I am certain the average human can see the connection. May I ask, where are you from, region wise?

I know very well that there are insticts that work for many people, they are used everywhere, including in advertising and propaganda. Especially everything related to mating and breeding (to use the biological terms, as this is a biological phenomenon) works best, so we have principles like "sex sells" as well as kids and cute puppies being slapped on all kinds of ads, from cars to yoghurt. It doesn't work for everyone, though, and it's the cheapest solution, really. Normally it's not more than a distraction from the fact that there's no actual content that would be valuable alone. Referring to ESO, that means: I want actual good stories, not bad stories masked by "oh, there's a cute kid in it".

And while there might be cultural differences world-wide, in my country it isn't that much different from how it's in the USA, btw. Although you could argue what my cultural origin actually is. I was born in Germany, currently still live in Germany, my ancestors on my father's side are Germanized Old Prussians most probably from the Sembai tribe, on my mother's side, we were Chinese nobles spread over the world (with a focus on East and South East Asia, though) after the end of monarchy. (I know it's a very unusual parentage, so if someone who reads this recognizes me from somewhere else and wants to renew contact, feel free to PM me).

Vaqual · January 23

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

But the thing is, with these shallow world quests, you have to transport a lot on the implicit layer. Exploiting humans instinct just makes it easier.

But wouldn't actually good writing be a better solution than just the usual bad writing with an emotional ploy as a tear-jerker (children and small animals usually work)?

Vaqual wrote: »

Either you are genuinely wired differently, or you are making it too easy for yourself.

There are probably two aspects in which my character differs from the majority (although I'm not the only one, most of my friends aren't that different to me): I know cultural expectations, but don't care much for them. I am more rational than sentimental. And from that perspective, a human is a human, age doesn't change the worth of a person in any way. And a helpless person is a helpless person, no matter which age.

Vaqual wrote: »

Maybe there are cultural differences, but I am certain the average human can see the connection. May I ask, where are you from, region wise?

I know very well that there are insticts that work for many people, they are used everywhere, including in advertising and propaganda. Especially everything related to mating and breeding (to use the biological terms, as this is a biological phenomenon) works best, so we have principles like "sex sells" as well as kids and cute puppies being slapped on all kinds of ads, from cars to yoghurt. It doesn't work for everyone, though, and it's the cheapest solution, really. Normally it's not more than a distraction from the fact that there's no actual content that would be valuable alone. Referring to ESO, that means: I want actual good stories, not bad stories masked by "oh, there's a cute kid in it".

And while there might be cultural differences world-wide, in my country it isn't that much different from how it's in the USA, btw. Although you could argue what my cultural origin actually is. I was born in Germany, currently still live in Germany, my ancestors on my father's side are Germanized Old Prussians most probably from the Sembai tribe, on my mother's side, we were Chinese nobles spread over the world (with a focus on East and South East Asia, though) after the end of monarchy. (I know it's a very unusual parentage, so if someone who reads this recognizes me from somewhere else and wants to renew contact, feel free to PM me).

Interesting, thanks for the answer. I can not say that I agree with branding the engagement with instinctive behaviour as cheap, though. Mundane stories and plots with great depth benefit from each other by creating contrast. As long as I am engaged and immersed it works for me. Part of that are believable motivations during the plot, and if anything makes sense it is human nature. I can't help but feel that you choose to see the worst in it. You are over-dissecting my examples but at the same time missing my point. I don't want to symphasize with the NPC, I want to be convinced of their story. If the plot manages to even involve me emotionally, ok cool, I take it. And the more quests the game offers, the more variety is needed to maintain the illusion. Nothings breaks immersion more than non-organic and repetitive patterns. At that points quests just become chores. Adding a couple more arrows to the quiver of plot options just seems smart to me.

Syldras · January 23

Vaqual wrote: »

I can not say that I agree with branding the engagement with instinctive behaviour as cheap, though.

In my opinion, throwing a "cute animal" or a "helpless kid" into a story to conceal that it's otherwise mediocre, is (and same goes for the "sex sells" principle). And when the story itself is well-written, it doesn't neccessary need this addition.

What do you think about this story, by the way, if you have played it?
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Memory_Stone
It's a family story without the use of any child npc.

To get back to the main topic: I see that some people would like child npcs for immersion. Others don't care at all. And there are also a lot of people who feel really unconfortable with this for different reasons. Also, I think ZOS want to spare themselves the trouble of a "scandal". Imagine there were child npcs in the game; even if you couldn't attack them, there would be people who made it look like this with emotes. I'm sure, sooner or later someone would make a video of it, and some gaming website would use that for a scandal story. I really can understand that ZOS wants to avoid that. So in the end, I see more negative points about adding child npcs than positives, as good story telling is also possible without them.