Snow treaders needs to be reworked

Udrath · January 3

Change this mythic. Either not allow the users to increase their speed at all, or turn it into something else useful for PVE. Being able to negate such a large amount of CC in PVP is a bit ridiculous considering how easy it is to go over 40% movement speed. Also consider it is mandatory for most group pvp (ball groups) points out that it is over performing.

xDeusEJRx · January 3

Don't think Snow treaders needs a change at all despite it's usage. Unlike some mythics this one actually gives a major drawback, which is that it disables one of your core combat abilities completely (Sprinting).

Some mythic item sets don't even have a down side, so I hardly see a reason as to why we need to nerf one that completely removes a core combat skill from you.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 3

"While battle spirit is active, your speed is decreased by X% per group member".

There, it is fixed ^

Udrath · January 3

@xDeusEJRx

Sprinting doesn’t really matter when able to keep 55% movement increase at all times with one skill and one champion perk. Sprinting gives 40% movement speed by default but abilities are locked.

DrNukenstein · January 3

Sprint canceling your heal is like one of the strongest things in this game.

Snow treaders could make me immune to sadness and I still wouldn't use them.

Zabagad · January 4

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Sprint canceling your heal is like one of the strongest things in this game.

I didn't know that - maybe because I play sorc only?

But ty for that L2P input for me.
Anyway - OP is pointing towards ballgroups and they pretty sure don't use that heal/sprintcancel often, because they don't need to do it with all the HoTs on them.

So I like @Tommy_The_Gun's solution very much!
I guess that nerf wouldn't hurt any other then the targeted groups....

xDeusEJRx · January 4

Udrath wrote: »

@xDeusEJRx

Sprinting doesn’t really matter when able to keep 55% movement increase at all times with one skill and one champion perk. Sprinting gives 40% movement speed by default but abilities are locked.

The point of what I'm saying is that it's a tradeoff that you have to make, movement speed IS important and it DOES matter. A lot of fights will not end because people can and will run away from an engagement, snow treaders makes it extremely difficult to run away from a fight, which means if you engage, then you commit. It's honestly disingenuous to make it seem as if losing out on movement speed "Doesn't matter"

I feel like the bias against ballgroups is so prominent people are making bad faith arguments that they'll even imply that there's no tradeoff or downside to what they're doing. They have to trade bar slots, jewelry traits, etc in order to get around an obvious debuff. Every opportunity has a cost.

Erickson9610 · January 4

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

"While battle spirit is active, your speed is decreased by X% per group member".

There, it is fixed ^

You might want to instead reduce speed by X% per nearby ally, because otherwise people will get a speed penalty for not being near their group (such as when they are at the gate, turning quests in), and then you'll have people choosing to not group up but still stick together like a ball group to mitigate the speed penalty.

Udrath · January 4

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

@xDeusEJRx

Sprinting doesn’t really matter when able to keep 55% movement increase at all times with one skill and one champion perk. Sprinting gives 40% movement speed by default but abilities are locked.

The point of what I'm saying is that it's a tradeoff that you have to make, movement speed IS important and it DOES matter. A lot of fights will not end because people can and will run away from an engagement, snow treaders makes it extremely difficult to run away from a fight, which means if you engage, then you commit. It's honestly disingenuous to make it seem as if losing out on movement speed "Doesn't matter"

I feel like the bias against ballgroups is so prominent people are making bad faith arguments that they'll even imply that there's no tradeoff or downside to what they're doing. They have to trade bar slots, jewelry traits, etc in order to get around an obvious debuff. Every opportunity has a cost.

For a ball group to be immune to all snares and roots while moving 25% above default sprint speed is just one of many advantages, and this makes it extremely easy to run away from anything except a stun. The trade off is so good there is no reason not to use snow treaders with this playstyle. There is a night and day difference between ball groups with snow treaders and groups without.

Tyrant_Tim · January 4

Snowtreaders are definitely enabling ball groups.

One common theme with every single one, is they “walk” in set paths stopping periodically to bomb, if it was possible to slow or root individuals in the groups, you could start to trim them off, which 100% should be the case.

It’s actually absurd how overperforming this mythic is in a group setting, to the point where a single group running it can run loops around another factions keep just farming players like they’re adds, preventing entire factions from moving anywhere on the map.

IZZEFlameLash · January 5

Tbh, sounds more like a problem of Swift and other means of speedboost. This mythic alone doesn't do much outside of getting you killed. Because without all the speed boost sources such as Swift, you aren't outrunning anyone. And Swift has been the choice of trait for lots of hardcores for a long time ever since its release.

Udrath · January 5

@IZZEFlameLash
Base movement speed is 100%. Charging manuever gives major (30%) and minor expedition (15%) and celerity CP perk gives 10%. I don’t think any swift is really needed, but if it was 3 traits of swift is another 21% all gold. I’m pretty sure the speed cap is 200%. Sprint alone increases speed from 100% to 140%. Snow treaders are very strong with just the first options I listed, which groups can keep up nearly the entire time, while immune to everything except stuns and pulls all while moving well above default sprint speed.

IZZEFlameLash · January 6

Udrath wrote: »

@IZZEFlameLash
Base movement speed is 100%. Charging manuever gives major (30%) and minor expedition (15%) and celerity CP perk gives 10%. I don’t think any swift is really needed, but if it was 3 traits of swift is another 21% all gold. I’m pretty sure the speed cap is 200%. Sprint alone increases speed from 100% to 140%. Snow treaders are very strong with just the first options I listed, which groups can keep up nearly the entire time, while immune to everything except stuns and pulls all while moving well above default sprint speed.

Swift really is needed to make Snow Treader work. Have you used Snow Treader all by itself in Cyrodiil with 0 form of constant speed boost or played with no speed boost skills? You cannot successfully chase someone who is sprinting without 3 Swifts. Especially if the said runner is using Major Expedition and Celerity on top of sprinting.

Udrath · January 6

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

@IZZEFlameLash
Base movement speed is 100%. Charging manuever gives major (30%) and minor expedition (15%) and celerity CP perk gives 10%. I don’t think any swift is really needed, but if it was 3 traits of swift is another 21% all gold. I’m pretty sure the speed cap is 200%. Sprint alone increases speed from 100% to 140%. Snow treaders are very strong with just the first options I listed, which groups can keep up nearly the entire time, while immune to everything except stuns and pulls all while moving well above default sprint speed.

Swift really is needed to make Snow Treader work. Have you used Snow Treader all by itself in Cyrodiil with 0 form of constant speed boost or played with no speed boost skills? You cannot successfully chase someone who is sprinting without 3 Swifts. Especially if the said runner is using Major Expedition and Celerity on top of sprinting.

If swift is needed then a ball group is moving at 176% movement speed with snow treaders at all times. Snow treaders is just one issue involving ball groups that give them a huge advantage with no counters besides stuns and luck. It needs be changed not swift, expedition buffs, or a cp perk. I don’t see any ball groups not using it, and ball groups use to PVP fine without it. The main problem with snow treaders is snare and root immunity at all times is too strong in PVP for that specific playstyle, and there is no way in the game to really counter it.

It’s an overlooked mythic similar to the first versions of the malacath ring and oakensoul, but for movement. At best snow treaders should reduce the duration of snares and roots by a percentage, not immunity to all, but I am not interested in making up a solution cause it’s not my job, just pointing out an issue it causes to only PVP.

StaticWave · January 6

Bombard spamming is aids so I think Snow Treader shouldnt be nerfed.

Tyrant_Tim · January 6

StaticWave wrote: »

Bombard spamming is aids so I think Snow Treader shouldnt be nerfed.

What’s worse, 12-stack groups locking down an entire map and causing players to drop out of Cyrodiil entirely or the occasional Root spammer waiting on CC immunity?

Blackreach has been doing so well lately. /s

Tyrant_Tim · January 6

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

@IZZEFlameLash
Base movement speed is 100%. Charging manuever gives major (30%) and minor expedition (15%) and celerity CP perk gives 10%. I don’t think any swift is really needed, but if it was 3 traits of swift is another 21% all gold. I’m pretty sure the speed cap is 200%. Sprint alone increases speed from 100% to 140%. Snow treaders are very strong with just the first options I listed, which groups can keep up nearly the entire time, while immune to everything except stuns and pulls all while moving well above default sprint speed.

Swift really is needed to make Snow Treader work. Have you used Snow Treader all by itself in Cyrodiil with 0 form of constant speed boost or played with no speed boost skills? You cannot successfully chase someone who is sprinting without 3 Swifts. Especially if the said runner is using Major Expedition and Celerity on top of sprinting.

People are not chasing anything in Snowtreaders.

They are “walking” routes through keeps owned by other factions, causing the majority of players to stop playing the map and chase them around their own keeps while getting farmed.

“Well, everyone could just ignore them…”

No, because then they will steal your keep with zero effort, the same amount of effort they are each putting into getting the results possible with Snowtreaders.

IZZEFlameLash · January 8

The thing is, Snow Treader, you need Swifts and speed boost to not fall off from others. And I assure you, ballgroups do chase people often, and without someone providing dedicated speed boost, Snow Treader wearers are the slowest things in ESO and easily picked apart.

And not to mention what Static pointed out, there's a lot of immobilization spammed by ballgroups as well. Why stop at nerfing Snow Treaders, the only real counter to it? Why not ask for immobilization nerf as well?

Tyrant_Tim · January 8

Tyrant_Tim · January 8

Without swift, having only one of your dedicated 11 other groupmates, probably a healer, hitting Charging Maneuver once every 8 seconds, you will have 145% movement speed while walking.

That is a 5% lead over sprinting normally.

Now, I personally have never had a problem with Root Spammers, as a single roll dodge gets you out and makes you immune for a time, but I do have a problem with dead Campaigns, and Snowtreaders are one of the enabling factors.

Thanks OP for making a post about it, as until now it has been flying under the radar.

Sylosi · January 8

I rarely play the PvP in this game, because even by the low standards of MMORPG PvP it is bad (which is why it has always been less successful than the other MMO with similar PvP), Snowtreaders are a fine example of that.

When I tell people in other games with one item you can be permanently immune to soft CC they laugh, unless of course they are already so exhausted from laughing because I've told them about the amount of damage/CC/defense proc sets provide and how much they play the game for you.

Udrath · January 8

@IZZEFlameLash

Immobolizations were changed to have a cool down timer sometime ago.

StaticWave · January 20

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bombard spamming is aids so I think Snow Treader shouldnt be nerfed.

What’s worse, 12-stack groups locking down an entire map and causing players to drop out of Cyrodiil entirely or the occasional Root spammer waiting on CC immunity?

Blackreach has been doing so well lately. /s

I run a bombard sorc and I can lock down a fight completely in my team’s favor, even with all the dodge rolling they do to counter it.

Both are equally aids to fight against but you know what the difference is? It only takes 1 competent bombard spammer to lock down an entire group. It takes the entire group running Snow Treaders to mitigate 1 bombard spammer.

Nerfing Snow Treader without nerfing Bombard will just create more problems.

xylena_lazarow · January 20

StaticWave wrote: »

Both are equally aids to fight against but you know what the difference is? It only takes 1 competent bombard spammer to lock down an entire group. It takes the entire group running Snow Treaders to mitigate 1 bombard spammer.

Bombard requires competence though. Snow Treaders just play the game for you.

StaticWave · January 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Both are equally aids to fight against but you know what the difference is? It only takes 1 competent bombard spammer to lock down an entire group. It takes the entire group running Snow Treaders to mitigate 1 bombard spammer.

Bombard requires competence though. Snow Treaders just play the game for you.

Well it's really not that difficult to aim your cursor at a large group and hit Bombard

Turtle_Bot · January 21

The issue with snowtreaders is that it compounds everything else that ball groups already have as an advantage and its downside is a non-factor with how easily obtainable/free movement speed has gotten.

How I would change the mythic to not impact others while having the most impact on ball groups and "troll tanks" would be to reduce the speed cap of those wearing snowtreaders to what the current base run speed is.
They could even remove the "cannot sprint" condition from snowtreaders with this change, since the speed would be capped at base run speed anyway so sprinting wouldn't give extra movement speed, but this change would allow the wearer of snowtreaders to use sprint to proc other things like CP, sets, etc. that proc off sprint being active while keeping the intended theme of the mythic, that being the wearer cannot be slowed/immobilized, but cannot move faster either).

This change means that the ball group must stick together or risk their supports who do wear snowtreaders falling behind (making the groups easier to hit with sieges or be split from their supports), or they no longer run snowtreaders but then become vulnerable to being locked down by soft CC again, with both of these options making it easier to land sieges on them. This also applies to "troll tanks" too, since they will no longer be able to simply stroll out of siege fire/AoE so quickly or they use another mythic and then soft CC locks them down inside siege fire/AoE.

Sure, they could slot RaT for snare removal/immunity instead, but this removes other utility from their bars, meaning they are less tanky, or can now be hit by something else. It also means snare removal/immunity becomes an active defensive tool that requires resources and actively casting it instead of just passively being immune to snares/immobilizes the whole time with effectively zero downside.

Tyrant_Tim · January 21

StaticWave wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bombard spamming is aids so I think Snow Treader shouldnt be nerfed.

What’s worse, 12-stack groups locking down an entire map and causing players to drop out of Cyrodiil entirely or the occasional Root spammer waiting on CC immunity?

Blackreach has been doing so well lately. /s

I run a bombard sorc and I can lock down a fight completely in my team’s favor, even with all the dodge rolling they do to counter it.

Both are equally aids to fight against but you know what the difference is? It only takes 1 competent bombard spammer to lock down an entire group. It takes the entire group running Snow Treaders to mitigate 1 bombard spammer.

Nerfing Snow Treader without nerfing Bombard will just create more problems.

Static we don’t usually disagree but I have to die on the hill with this one, ball groups have been poisoning Cyrodiil.

Let each and every one of them slot a Snare removal skill just like everyone else, with all the off-healing it’s not like they can’t afford the bar space.

StaticWave · January 21

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bombard spamming is aids so I think Snow Treader shouldnt be nerfed.

What’s worse, 12-stack groups locking down an entire map and causing players to drop out of Cyrodiil entirely or the occasional Root spammer waiting on CC immunity?

Blackreach has been doing so well lately. /s

I run a bombard sorc and I can lock down a fight completely in my team’s favor, even with all the dodge rolling they do to counter it.

Both are equally aids to fight against but you know what the difference is? It only takes 1 competent bombard spammer to lock down an entire group. It takes the entire group running Snow Treaders to mitigate 1 bombard spammer.

Nerfing Snow Treader without nerfing Bombard will just create more problems.

Static we don’t usually disagree but I have to die on the hill with this one, ball groups have been poisoning Cyrodiil.

Let each and every one of them slot a Snare removal skill just like everyone else, with all the off-healing it’s not like they can’t afford the bar space.

I think nerfing the mythic because ball groups overperform is a band aid fix. Ball groups have always done well with or without that mythic, so IMO instead of nerfing the set, we can nerf the actual problem which is the ability to stack so many HoTs and using proc sets to score kills.

JerBearESO · January 29

They should change how snare immunity works altogether. It's always been too strong. All immunity should be replaced with reduction, like 50%. There should not be a way to remove snares from the game, that's just silly....

ganzaeso · January 29

The problem with snow treaders is there is 0 stamina consumption for moving, which allows for that resource to be very efficiently managed.

You only need so much stamina regen to account for break free, assuming the Slippery CP and unstoppable pots are not already taking care of the break free cost. Not having to worry about the cost of break free basically means stuns are no longer an effective counter to movement. Those resources can then be used towards stamina HOTS and heals, which are not affected by negate. Negate is only effective if the ball group can not move out of it. With CC immunity it can take a very long time to run a ball group out of stamina so that you can lock them down and finally burst them.

I say the most effective change to snow treaders would be to replace the disability to sprint with the disability to break free.

Being able to be effectively immune to all CC 100% of the time enables too much.