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Do you think Redguard is balanced in the current meta?

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD
M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD
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It will soon be the 7th year in a row of Redguard being the most useless, underpowered race in the game. This topic pops up on the forum every so often and yet practically nothing has been done to change their current state aside from offering a miniscule buff to Adrenaline Rush in a meta where building for sustain isn't needed at all.

I'm going to dissect how Redguard passives fail to bring anything truely useful when compared to the passives of other races in the roles of Tank, DPS, Healer, and general PvP builds.

Tank:
Adrenaline Rush allows Redguards to regain stamina through block which can be useful in permablocking fights, however this pretty much sums up the pros versus the several cons when picking Redguard over another race. Every other races has some sort of defensive passive whether it be resistance to a specific type of damage, a little bit of extra max health or health recovery, or straight up a bonus to resistance in general (Nord). Redguard gets snare resistance, which does NOTHING to improve their tankiness; in other words, they are THE SQUISHIEST race. Other races, specifically Nord and Imperial have ultigen/ult-cost reduction that contribute to group utility through better buff uptimes, and which indirectly contribute to sustain if playing a DK tank where ulting restores a portion of every resource. Argonian likewise offers sustain to all resource pools. Redguard passives pigeon-hole them into purely stam sustain specs in a role where magicka skills are abundant for self healing and buffing, and on top of that they offer no group utility.

Healer:
The healer role is one of the few areas in the game where investing in sustain is important. Redguard's 8% weapon skill cost reduction may help a little bit in this department by reducing the mag cost of the commonly used healer skills Illustrious Springs, Radiating Regen, Combat Prayer, and Wall of Elements, but this accounts for less than half of the skills in a healer's arsenal. In regards to sustain, both Imperial and especially Breton leave Redguard in the dust, not to mention that Redguard has no bonus for maximum magicka and nothing that might boost the strength of their heals. Suffice to say that Redguard passives contribute almost nothing to a healer.

DPS:
DPS do not need to invest in their own sustain because it is generally provided to them from an outside source (support roles in content and by the trial dummy when parsing). Building for damage is best because the shorter the fight, the less need for endurance there is. Redguards have absolutely zero damage passives, meanwhile Altmer, Dunmer, and Orc get the equivalent of an infused weapon/spell damage jewelry enchant that can be further buffed with major/minor brutality. With buffs, this ends up being being over 300 weap/spell damage, which isn't at all insignificant: it's basically a Hunding's Rage or Julianos' 5th piece bonus for free at all times. This bonus has become even more significant since the change to proc sets that cause their damage to scale with stats. Their absolute lack of both damage and survivability passives makes Redguard the best at being the worst pick for DPS.

PvP:
Sustain is an important element in survivability in PvP, but Redguard sustain suffers heavily in this environment because of the way their stamina recovery is obtained. For starters, Redguard will only ever really benefit a stamina setup, making them an inflexible pick from them get-go: the 8% weapon skill cost reduction is just too niche as most builds will at most slot only a handful of weapon skills. Looking at the stamina sustain side of things, Adrenaline Rush seems to offer a pretty nice amount of recovery, right? Perhaps, if PvP involved 2 people parsing away at each other until one dies :D . Obviously, this is not the case. Half the battle in PvP involves running away, kiting around cover, dodging to avoid damage, etc. In these situations where your aren't hitting the enemy, arguably the time where you rely on sustain the most, Redguard gets nothing. For sustain in PvP, Imperial, Bosmer, and Breton are light-years ahead. If damage and tankiness are your preference in PvP, Redguard isn't even on the radar.

When ZOS added the Sea-Serpent's Coil, I thought Redguard might finally have a niche situation to be useful by reducing the strength of the 40% snare down to 25%. Turns out the snare is unaffected by such bonuses. Redguard just can't win.

Knowing the above, do you think Redguard should continue to remain in its current state for another year? Are they balanced when compared to other races?
Edited by M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD on December 19, 2023 12:01AM

Do you think Redguard is balanced in the current meta? 96 votes

Yes
20%
Kendarichans.johansson1958b16_ESOIdinuseSerasWhipRupzSkoomaCerboltAntonShanCerilonkarthrag_inakArchonLucienRasande_RobinIshtarknowsPixiepumpkinVulkunneKisakeeFelisCatusKrymsyn_PandaLunaFloraZhuJiuyinerdYrrson 20 votes
No
79%
SolarikenBlueRavenssewallb14_ESOHargamSheezabeastTheDarkRulerSalamanNZStrib407ReverbCastagereCzeriAces-High-82Ra'ShtarAliyavanaOhtimbarfizl101Hegronbbrown0770Alaztor91NordSwordnBoard 76 votes
  • Cooperharley
    Cooperharley
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    No
    Balanced? Nah not really.

    Look at how many people play redguard currently - it has to be one of the least played races.
  • Vulkunne
    Vulkunne
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    Yes
    I think its balanced but there are too many other ... I don't want to say better but perhaps... more applicable options.
    Edited by Vulkunne on December 19, 2023 3:18PM
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills.
  • AlterBlika
    AlterBlika
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    No
    BiS for stamina solo, if you utilize weapon skills (master 2h build for example). Otherwise not so much.
    I'd rather have redguard as a sustain race, like breton. A buff is needed but not a complete rework.
  • NordSwordnBoard
    NordSwordnBoard
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    No
    Redguard needs help. Adrenaline rush should be converted into some kind of damage buff.
    Fear is the Mindkiller
  • El_Borracho
    El_Borracho
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    No
    Its bad when even Bosmer is used more than Redguard.
  • EF321
    EF321
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    I've read through your points about cost reduction and ult generation, I think you are missing one detail where redguard cost passive also applies to weapon ults. Not like it is a big game changer, I still would rather go Imperial or Bosmer in any situation where redguard would be acceptable choice.
  • Necrotech_Master
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    i wont say its perfect and could use some improvements, but its far from being unbalanced

    my main pvp toon is a redguard stam NB lol, i will say the cost reduction and stam sustain is great for me
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • AlterBlika
    AlterBlika
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    No
    Redguard needs help. Adrenaline rush should be converted into some kind of damage buff.

    We already have plenty of damage races though
  • emilyhyoyeon
    emilyhyoyeon
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    No
    Based on lore it's crazy how redguards are irrelevant for DPS (even tanking as well but I think they suit DPS more out of the three roles).
    Zirasia Firemaker, imperial fire mage & sunbather _ Deebaba Soul-Weaver, argonian spirit minder & soul gem collector
    Tullanisse Starborne, altmer battlemage noble & ayleid researcher _ Qa'Rirra, khajiit assassin & dancer
  • francesinhalover
    francesinhalover
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    racial passives outside of things like lava resistance, swim speed etc. shouldn't exist in the first place.

    so no redguard isn't balanced, because redguard doesn't have 250 wep dmg.

    I hope one day z gives players the options to chose their passives.
    I am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
    Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!
  • SkaraMinoc
    SkaraMinoc
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    No
    Redguard needs a damage passive, probably +crit %.

    Edited by SkaraMinoc on December 19, 2023 9:00PM
    PC NA
  • M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD
    M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD
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    i wont say its perfect and could use some improvements, but its far from being unbalanced

    my main pvp toon is a redguard stam NB lol, i will say the cost reduction and stam sustain is great for me

    I don't really see how Redguard would bring much benefit to you here, unless your build has a majority of weapon skills on your bars. Most every nightblade I see uses a ton of class skills with some alliance war and guild skills sprinkled in, very rarely do I see weapon skills on a nightblade.

    I play stamblade in PvP too, and the amount of time you spend kiting and roll dodging often surpasses the total time actually spent hitting the enemy. Nightblade typically aims to kill the enemy in the smallest window of time possible with huge burst, and in my experience triggering adrenaline rush is just too infrequent due to the nature of the playstyle, whereas Wood Elf would provide you with consistent stamina recovery (and a little boost to pen!) and Khajiit would allow you to hit 12% harder out of cloak. A 12% bonus to incap or the bow proc is a LOT of damage and would be far more beneficial than what little Redguard is actually providing.
    Edited by M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD on December 19, 2023 11:00PM
  • M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD
    M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD
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    EF321 wrote: »
    I've read through your points about cost reduction and ult generation, I think you are missing one detail where redguard cost passive also applies to weapon ults. Not like it is a big game changer, I still would rather go Imperial or Bosmer in any situation where redguard would be acceptable choice.

    You're right that Redguard does give ult cost reduction for weapon skill ults, but these are rarely ever used, and the reason I pointed out the ultigen/ult cost reduction passives for Nord and Imperial is specifically because they can be applied to Warhorn amd Barrier which are extremely commonly used due to their group utility.
  • Araneae6537
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    No
    It does not seem balanced to me. I think a bonus to weapon damage or, as @YandereGirlfriend suggested, a bonus similar to Heartland Conqueror would be more useful and fit Redguard lore.

    In the meantime, if one wanted to make a Redguard character using mostly weapon skills, what class would benefit such a build most? Maybe DK, warden, or sorc for bonuses to poison, bleed, or physical damage, respectively?
  • TaSheen
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    It does not seem balanced to me. I think a bonus to weapon damage or, as @YandereGirlfriend suggested, a bonus similar to Heartland Conqueror would be more useful and fit Redguard lore.

    In the meantime, if one wanted to make a Redguard character using mostly weapon skills, what class would benefit such a build most? Maybe DK, warden, or sorc for bonuses to poison, bleed, or physical damage, respectively?

    My mains are all Redguard stamdens. I use mostly weapon skills - some of my girls are 2 hand, some are dual wield. They're all Oakensoul (not HA - I don't like the HA playstyle), so I have on my bars the Cliffracer morph (never can remember what it's called), then three weapon skills, then Resolving Vigor. Mostly any more I don't call up the bear unless I know I'm going to be having to deal with a lot of tight-packed mobs (like in a delve).

    I use Hexos' Ward - the shield is really nice since my satellite lag can cause major issues sometimes - and Hunding's Rage. I'm sure someone's going to say how non-optimal all this is, but since I don't do group content no one needs to worry about how well I survive.
    ______________________________________________________

    But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending.

    PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- three accounts, many alts....
  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    No
    It almost feels like they've made redguard weak on purpose. Before race overhaul happened redguard was a top race and one of the most popular choices then Zos made it the weakest race and suprisingly they also introduced a race change token into the crown store in the same patch. What a coincidence.
    Edited by Galeriano on December 20, 2023 12:27AM
  • valenwood_vegan
    valenwood_vegan
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    No
    29 characters on two accounts... but zero Redguards. I've tried but they always felt weak and I switched to another race. Could definitely use a buff.
  • Redguards_Revenge
    Redguards_Revenge
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    No
    No. Since the creation of this account name. Even before then. No.

    I have accepted being the weakest in pvp and pve and realizing ZoS will never change that. So I stopped playing pve and pvp. I just walk around and do some quests from time to time.

    In pve, I go to trials and dungeons to be an extra loot dropper and fill in space.

    In pvp, if I ever go in there, I don't even bother trying, I know I will lose every time. So just before every time I embark to go help defend a keep I ask "hows the keep doing?" If they thin they can defend it, I start running. If they can't I just sit around and wait.

    In BGs I just hide mostly in deathmatch because it's best I don't add points by dying.

    I sometimes try on the other BG modes unless there are just people playing it like a deathmatch and ignoring objectives. Then I go back to hiding.



    I've played Redguard Templar since beta. For many reasons and why I won't become a vampire, I am not changing that.

    Redguard Templar is one of the worst combos I've played in ESO. It wasn't always like this.

    I will not change my race, nor will I change my class. All I do is simply play less. I've tried all combinations and realized 100% I am the weakest in the game. Why compete? For a small chance to beat the odds and feel happy for a small amount of time before the reality comes in?

    Since I am the minority of the player base who does not chase meta for various reasons, I just have to accept it. That for 4 years plus I've been playing the worst combo in the game.
  • KlauthWarthog
    KlauthWarthog
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    No
    Nope, and I do not think ZOS intends to do anything about it. Ever since they monetized racial passives with the race change token, all changes get met with flak and requests for free tokens, so it is easier for them to just do nothing.
  • Rasande_Robin
    Rasande_Robin
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    Yes
    When sustain will be an issue, redguards will shine.

    When water content comes, argonian will shine.

    I believe redguards will shine long before argonians ever will...
    PC/EU: Orcana "something"-stone
  • tincanman
    tincanman
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    If i recall the race changes were made to market elsewyr with kahjiit being promoted to the then premier dps race. Before that redguards were bis for stamina for years. the race changes blitzed them. but I think they can get in line behind bosmers. although redguards have probably now been crap as a race for as long as they were best. It is ironic that redguards are described as the sword/weapon masters.
  • Redguards_Revenge
    Redguards_Revenge
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    No
    Aurielle wrote: »
    I may be in the minority here, but after returning to the game following a four year break, I think that race is mostly irrelevant these days — unless you’re chasing world records in trials and vet DLC dungeons, of course. DPS is higher than it has ever been across the board, hybridization changes have made certain builds far more viable now than in the past, and a number of newer OP gear sets/items can make any race/class combo viable for any content in the game (again, unless you’re in the minority pushing for world records).

    No offence intended to any of you who claim you can’t be effective as Redguards, but I would argue that if you’re struggling now (and not actively trying to achieve world records), you’d still struggle if ZOS made the changes you want. We now have more than enough CP and sets available to compensate for any perceived racial “weaknesses.” Learning your class well and allocating your CP appropriately matters far more in the greater scheme of things than 200-odd weapon damage or 100-200 sustain points.

    Then they should change the redguard passives. If it is irrelevant change redguard or outright remove every racial passive from everyone.

    I would go with the latter and remove everyone's racial passives. It's just the easiest way to make them irrelevant.
  • Sockermannen
    Sockermannen
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    No
    Do i believe redguards are balanced to some degree, atleast from a PvE perspective. The main drawback with them that i can see is that there is no viable spot for them in the current META of the game.

    Sustain races are rarely good for damage dealers because resources are so abundant in trial content. Breton is an exception to this because as the dedicated magica sustain race they can make good healers and magica is arguable the more important resource to manage as a tank since so many buffs, debuffs and heals cost magica.

    Rather than throwing the entire META upside down to accomodate one race i’d like for redguard to get some changes to their passives. a crit chance bonus might serve them well.

    Alternatively remove racial passives alltogeather and make it a ”background” feature where the players can pick what they want during character creation and make race entierly cosmetic.
    Edited by Sockermannen on December 20, 2023 4:35PM
  • Araneae6537
    Araneae6537
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    No
    Do i believe redguards are balanced to some degree, atleast from a PvE perspective. The main drawback with them that i can see is that there is no viable spot for them in the current META of the game.

    Sustain races are rarely good for damage dealers because resources are so abundant in trial content. Breton is an exception to this because as the dedicated magica sustain race they can make good healers and magica is arguable the more important resource to manage as a tank since so many buffs, debuffs and heals cost magica.

    Wouldn’t Redguard’s current passives benefit a tank since blocking primarily costs stamina? With XP bonus to the S&B skill line, it seems to me this is what ZOS had in mind. It isn’t the focus I would expect given what I know of the lore, but then neither are Argonian’s.
    Edited by Araneae6537 on December 20, 2023 5:25PM
  • Aurielle
    Aurielle
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    Aurielle wrote: »
    I may be in the minority here, but after returning to the game following a four year break, I think that race is mostly irrelevant these days — unless you’re chasing world records in trials and vet DLC dungeons, of course. DPS is higher than it has ever been across the board, hybridization changes have made certain builds far more viable now than in the past, and a number of newer OP gear sets/items can make any race/class combo viable for any content in the game (again, unless you’re in the minority pushing for world records).

    No offence intended to any of you who claim you can’t be effective as Redguards, but I would argue that if you’re struggling now (and not actively trying to achieve world records), you’d still struggle if ZOS made the changes you want. We now have more than enough CP and sets available to compensate for any perceived racial “weaknesses.” Learning your class well and allocating your CP appropriately matters far more in the greater scheme of things than 200-odd weapon damage or 100-200 sustain points.

    Then they should change the redguard passives. If it is irrelevant change redguard or outright remove every racial passive from everyone.

    I would go with the latter and remove everyone's racial passives. It's just the easiest way to make them irrelevant.

    You’re kind of missing my point. Racial passives are *already* irrelevant for 99.9% of the playerbase. They only matter to players looking to shave a few seconds off their trial completion times. If my team of Khajiits all of a sudden had Redguard passives, I’d still be able to play the game effectively. You’re getting caught up on small stat bonuses that make very little difference in your character’s ability to do content. Racial passives do not bar you from completing any content in this game effectively.
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    i wont say its perfect and could use some improvements, but its far from being unbalanced

    my main pvp toon is a redguard stam NB lol, i will say the cost reduction and stam sustain is great for me

    I don't really see how Redguard would bring much benefit to you here, unless your build has a majority of weapon skills on your bars. Most every nightblade I see uses a ton of class skills with some alliance war and guild skills sprinkled in, very rarely do I see weapon skills on a nightblade.

    I play stamblade in PvP too, and the amount of time you spend kiting and roll dodging often surpasses the total time actually spent hitting the enemy. Nightblade typically aims to kill the enemy in the smallest window of time possible with huge burst, and in my experience triggering adrenaline rush is just too infrequent due to the nature of the playstyle, whereas Wood Elf would provide you with consistent stamina recovery (and a little boost to pen!) and Khajiit would allow you to hit 12% harder out of cloak. A 12% bonus to incap or the bow proc is a LOT of damage and would be far more beneficial than what little Redguard is actually providing.

    when i originally made the character i decided on redguard, but initially i did not decide on him to be my pvp toon until a bit later

    not paying for race change tokens either because i like the character the way it is

    never really fully analyzed the playstyle, but i do notice the stam restore and snare reduction in pvp, and the +15 min for food is helpful
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Sockermannen
    Sockermannen
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    No
    Do i believe redguards are balanced to some degree, atleast from a PvE perspective. The main drawback with them that i can see is that there is no viable spot for them in the current META of the game.

    Sustain races are rarely good for damage dealers because resources are so abundant in trial content. Breton is an exception to this because as the dedicated magica sustain race they can make good healers and magica is arguable the more important resource to manage as a tank since so many buffs, debuffs and heals cost magica.

    Wouldn’t Redguard’s current passives benefit a tank since blocking primarily costs stamina? With XP bonus to the S&B skill line, it seems to me this is what ZOS had in mind. It isn’t the focus I would expect given what I know of the lore, but then neither are Argonian’s.

    Yes but only to some degree

    Normally you don’t block every attack that comes your way which gives you alot of time to heavy attack for resources. For harder content it’s more about timing your HAs with the bosses attacks so that you can trade blows as efficiently as possible. Would redguard’s resources regen help? Yes absolutely, and i’d argue that tank is their best role by a mile. Tanking just tend to be more magica consuming than stamina.

    I always found tanking with breton to be more beneficial between the two
    Edited by Sockermannen on December 20, 2023 5:46PM
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
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    Nothing is balanced, as nothing is each other's equal. Everything has its upsides and downs that could never be adequately compared to others. If all the Classes were balanced with each other, the Racial Passives would have no Combat effectiveness and we'd all be doing the same exact damage.
    CP1,900+ Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
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