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Shadowy Disguise is overloaded and needs readjustment

StaticWave
StaticWave
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By pressing 1 button, you get:
- 6s of Major Resolve on a build with zero heavy armor, or 13s of Major Resolve on a build with 5 heavy armor
- 3s of invisibility
- 100% crit chance for the next direct damage attack used within 3s
- 300 WD/SD from stage 2 Vampire passive

You also get Major Savagery/Prophecy if you slot it on either bar.

This is the most overloaded ability in the game right now. You are getting 2 forms of damage mitigation and 3 forms of damage amplifier for the cost of 4k magicka. I can't think of another ability of the same caliber.

Shadowy Disguise needs to be adjusted by either removing the 100% crit chance, Major Savagery, or have its invisibility reworked.

Edited by StaticWave on November 23, 2023 5:34AM
Platform:
PC NA

Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • NoSoup
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    Lol when half you're pain points come from other passive skills I don't think the ability in question is the problem.
    Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....
  • Hotdog_23
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    Ahh, man now you are going to make the disappearing NBs come out of hiding to defend it. Personally, always thought the 100% crit was too much also. No skill should give you 100% crit strike period. Major Savagery/Prophecy was probably added to help PVE damage.

    Stay safe :)
  • Turtle_Bot
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    ZOS should have limited the major prophecy/savagery buff to cloak to be PvE only (which they said was why it was being implemented in the first place).

    I'm just surprised ZOS hasn't Implemented a bunch of things for NB (and other classes as well) that are "PvE only", such as additional damage buffs/debuffs etc that are tied to the "against monsters" clause or "when battle spirit is not active" condition. Doing that would have easily brought NB up to other classes (DK/arcanist) for PvE without breaking the class in PvP.

    The precedents are already there too:
    • Sets like Vicious Death, Plaguebreak and Storm Master.
    • Buffs like Empower, Slayer, Aegis and Battle Spirit itself.
    • CP nodes such as Preperation (blue tree, staving death sub-tree).
    • Abilities such as Negate (Stuns NPCs but Silences players).
    There's even Zone specific buffs like Yokudan's Might (+8% damage done while in craglorn only), so I can't see why this balance solution couldn't have been implemented for cloak and other problematic abilities.

    Battle spirit and the against monsters clauses need to be utilized much more than they currently are. It will help allow ZOS to implement and test out ideas and have the ability that, if those ideas are causing issues, they are super easy to balance that would also keep almost all of the player-base happy at the same time.
  • Vaqual
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    - The addition of passive Major Crit was unnecessary in my eyes, but also in many cases inconsequential since Pots and Camo Hunter are still very good sources for other reasons. This change can be reverted if you ask me.

    -Triggering Vamp stage 2+ passive is indeed an unfair advantage over other classes, as every other class has to spam pots/mist form to keep a high uptime of this passive, but a circumstancial synergy should specifically be removed and not be balanced by applying a general nerf that will also affect non-vampire cloak users

    -Invisibility can be countered and is often buggy, I suppose the topic has been discussed enough. If the invis was more reliable nerfs to the ability cost would be acceptable. When it works it is a powerful tool, but at the same time that is the core of the ability.

    -guaranteed crit is only really useful on burst builds, as it can be consumed by status procs and other inconsequential direct damage ticks. since one gcd is sacrificed for triggering the crit and the second for executing a damage ability the net damage gain over casting 2 damage abilities is very minor, especially since that buff relativates the effectiveness of the natural crit chance. the value of this is ultimately linked to the classes access to overtuned burst abilities, which are way more problematic in my eyes.

    -the passive major resolve: this is the only point I care about tbh. This passive is for me one of the most appealing parts of the NB kit. I don't use cloak, but a change to that ability to balance cloak would be a slap in the face. convoluting class passives that proc on ability activations while not convoluting class passives that are generally active with other abilities is such an incredibly bad and selective practice. How does this evaluation change if the NB has more than one shadow ability slotted? that point alone triggered me enough to write that whole response.

    all of this has been brought up in several threads that have been discussed, and you have been part of those. are you dissatisfied with the outcome of those discussions or why are you bringing it up again now? to hear the same comments? what are you hoping for by opening a new thread instead of replying to the already existing ones?
    Edited by Vaqual on November 23, 2023 8:57AM
  • StaticWave
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    NoSoup wrote: »
    Lol when half you're pain points come from other passive skills I don't think the ability in question is the problem.

    2 pain points out of 5. That's 40%, so not half. But let's say I don't include them.

    - 3s of invisibility
    - 100% crit chance for next direct damage attack within 3s
    - Major Savagery/Prophecy on both bars

    There are only two abilities in the game right now that provide a similar amount of effects and that's Artic Blast and Impervious Runeward. Both of them can't compare though, because 3s of Invisibility and 100% crit chance are much better defensively and offensively, especially if we're talking about how the NB's kit is built.

    So if Cloak isn't the problem then are you suggesting that removing the armor passive from NB's skill line and vamp 2 WD passive would be a better alternative?
    Edited by StaticWave on November 23, 2023 8:58AM
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • StaticWave
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    Vaqual wrote: »
    - The addition of passive Major Crit was unnecessary in my eyes, but also in many cases inconsequential since Pots and Camo Hunter are still very good sources for other reasons. This change can be reverted if you ask me.

    -Triggering Vamp stage 2+ passive is indeed an unfair advantage over other classes, as every other class has to spam pots/mist form to keep a high uptime of this passive, but a circumstancial synergy should specifically be removed and not be balanced by applying a general nerf that will also affect non-vampire cloak users

    -Invisibility can be countered and is often buggy, I suppose the topic has been discussed enough. If the invis was more reliable nerfs to the ability cost would be acceptable. When it works it is a powerful tool, but at the same time that is the core of the ability.

    -guaranteed crit is only really useful on burst builds, as it can be consumed by status procs and other inconsequential direct damage ticks. since one gcd is sacrificed for triggering the crit and the second for executing a damage ability the net damage gain over casting 2 damage abilities is very minor, especially since that buff relativates the effectiveness of the natural crit chance. the value of this is ultimately linked to the classes access to overtuned burst abilities, which are way more problematic in my eyes.

    -the passive major resolve: this is the only point I care about tbh. This passive is for me one of the most appealing parts of the NB kit. I don't use cloak, but a change to that ability to balance cloak would be a slap in the face. convoluting class passives that proc on ability activations while not convoluting class passives that are generally active with other abilities is such an incredibly bad and selective practice. How does this evaluation change if the NB has more than one shadow ability slotted? that point alone triggered me enough to write that whole response.

    all of this has been brought up in several threads that have been discussed, and you have been part of those. are you dissatisfied with the outcome of those discussions or why are you bringing it up again now? to hear the same comments? what are you hoping for by opening a new thread instead of replying to the already existing ones?

    I'm dissatisfied with ZOS's lack of acknowledgement of the class' overpowering strength in PvP for almost 2 years now. It was also a slap in the face that ZOS, even after all of our concerns, managed to go further down the rabbit hole by giving this class Major Savagery on an already strong defensive skill and masking it as a "PvE" buff.

    I've said it multiple times and I'll say it again: I am perfectly fine with NB being strong offensively. However, I am not okay with this class getting defensive buffs one after another. Look at the new Cloak for example. You can now have 12% crit chance on your back bar because slotting Cloak gives you Major Savagery on both bars. This gives NB more chance to crit heal than before when it had to rely on Camo Hunter.

    It's the little things like this that I am against. NB has become very hard to kill while also dishing out insane burst, and that is NOT okay.
    Edited by StaticWave on November 23, 2023 9:07AM
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • Vaqual
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    But if the strongest playstyles are OP they should be adjusted in way that does not harm weaker alternative playstyles.
    The design choice to give every class tools to work as healer/tank/dd is deliberate and very welcome to me. Your personal idea of what NB should be based on outdated iterations of the class is a non-argument.
    I appreciate your response, but you just repeated what you wrote in the opening post and you are not engaging with any concerns that are raised.
  • IZZEFlameLash
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    Hotdog_23 wrote: »
    Ahh, man now you are going to make the disappearing NBs come out of hiding to defend it. Personally, always thought the 100% crit was too much also. No skill should give you 100% crit strike period. Major Savagery/Prophecy was probably added to help PVE damage.

    Stay safe :)

    Lol forum version of detect pot that lasts until closure of this thread I suppose.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • StaticWave
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    Vaqual wrote: »
    But if the strongest playstyles are OP they should be adjusted in way that does not harm weaker alternative playstyles.
    The design choice to give every class tools to work as healer/tank/dd is deliberate and very welcome to me. Your personal idea of what NB should be based on outdated iterations of the class is a non-argument.
    I appreciate your response, but you just repeated what you wrote in the opening post and you are not engaging with any concerns that are raised.

    @Vaqual Yes, by addressing the ability instead of other passives. Let's see what concerns you raised:
    Vaqual wrote: »
    - The addition of passive Major Crit was unnecessary in my eyes, but also in many cases inconsequential since Pots and Camo Hunter are still very good sources for other reasons. This change can be reverted if you ask me.

    Definitely not inconsequential if you consider their applications.

    Camo Hunter provides 3% WD and Minor Berserk, but Cloak gives 300 flat WD that can be amplified and also affect heals. Camo Hunter only gives Savagery on 1 bar whereas Cloak gives it on both bars. Cloak is 100% better than Camo Hunter by a long shot.

    Using pots to make up for Savagery means you sacrifice tri-pots or immovables. Sacrificing sustain to get Savagery is not a good idea. Look at how Sorc has to use Spell pots if they want to free up bar space, making them give up stamina sustain.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    -Triggering Vamp stage 2+ passive is indeed an unfair advantage over other classes, as every other class has to spam pots/mist form to keep a high uptime of this passive, but a circumstancial synergy should specifically be removed and not be balanced by applying a general nerf that will also affect non-vampire cloak users

    Only a minority are non-vampire cloak users, if there are any. The vast majority of them are Vampire to make use of the 300 WD passive as well as other Vamp passives. You are using a very small percentage of the player base as basis for your argument, which doesn't really make this part of your argument very strong.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    -Invisibility can be countered and is often buggy, I suppose the topic has been discussed enough. If the invis was more reliable nerfs to the ability cost would be acceptable. When it works it is a powerful tool, but at the same time that is the core of the ability.

    Yes, the topic has been discussed enough. Cloak is definitely not "often buggy". If you mean randomly getting pulled out of stealth, then you either get hit by a direct damage ability you didn't see coming, or someone was using detect pots. It is very reliable when you aren't being hit by random direct abilities or detected by potions.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    -guaranteed crit is only really useful on burst builds, as it can be consumed by status procs and other inconsequential direct damage ticks. since one gcd is sacrificed for triggering the crit and the second for executing a damage ability the net damage gain over casting 2 damage abilities is very minor, especially since that buff relativates the effectiveness of the natural crit chance. the value of this is ultimately linked to the classes access to overtuned burst abilities, which are way more problematic in my eyes.

    And the entire NB kit is burst damage. NB doesn't have that many DoTs due to bar space issue anyways. You can also just force a crit AW before your status effects deal damage.

    I don't agree with nerfing the burst abilities. They have not been an issue for years until NB received several dmg amplifiers.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    -the passive major resolve: this is the only point I care about tbh. This passive is for me one of the most appealing parts of the NB kit. I don't use cloak, but a change to that ability to balance cloak would be a slap in the face. convoluting class passives that proc on ability activations while not convoluting class passives that are generally active with other abilities is such an incredibly bad and selective practice. How does this evaluation change if the NB has more than one shadow ability slotted? that point alone triggered me enough to write that whole response.

    I didn't ask for this passive to be reworked. I asked for CLOAK to be reworked. I don't think you read my thread carefully. Here is exactly what I said:
    StaticWave wrote: »
    Shadowy Disguise needs to be adjusted by either removing the 100% crit chance, Major Savagery, or have its invisibility reworked.

    So not sure why you brought this up. It's not part of my argument.

    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • Vaqual
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    Ok the last part is my bad, I didn't read that sentence properly. But still you use the bonus of the shadow passive to qualify the power of the ability, while the direct connection is really only given by the trigger condition. Considering a passive bonus in that scenario while not considering permanently active passives at the same time is just not a clean way of comparing passive power between classes, no matter how much power you can generate per ability tap due to linked triggers.

    And yes, cloak is not technically buggy. But speaking from personal experience server lag and desync is enough to completely mess up the reliability of the skill. Direct damage attacks can be registered after the cloak activation is registered and still pull you out.

    For your comparison you are also not looking at the active component of camo hunter, which is again a very incomplete way of looking at things. If you consider counter-cloak tools negligible than I can understand why you take so much issue with the ability. I am not claiming that camo hunter or pots are BiS any longer, but they are also far from being dead slots and have served well in the past. I also said that I personally think it would be completely ok to take that bonus away.

    And the entire toolkit of NB is not burst damage. You can build NBs without burst maxxing. Sure, they are not the best, but many things can be transferred and used in non-wd+crit burst centered builds. If you only just use e.g., debilitate, the guaranteed crit on cloak becomes almost useless offensively, as there is always a chance that magicka steal procs 0.1 ms after cloak activation. Same for blade cloak glyph procs, etc. So you already have to make deliberate build choices to get value from that to exceed the benefit of casting another offensive ability (or even a light weave for that matter) instead. To me that always seemed to be a design choice, while I am admittedly also not attached to this function. But I know for many people this is an engaging class aspect and to remove it as a balance measure because other skills are numerically overperforming is an unnecessary measure.

    I understand your overall point. It is an ability that gives you a unique defensive bonus while providing decent offense in a singular cast. But without abilities to capitalize on those buffs, the net benefit is low. The defensive aspect can also be partially negated when countered correctly. Of course an ability that is conceptualised this way should be stronger than one where success is guaranteed.

    In the end they can do whatever they want, I just hope nothing of value has to be destroyed to keep AW where it is at. I just take issue when demands like this are formulated with a bias to push the message.

    edit: fixed incorrect sentence
    Edited by Vaqual on November 24, 2023 6:41PM
  • OBJnoob
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    I don't think it's the worst thing... But for me it was just one of those eye-roll changes.

    I don't understand how this was supposed to help NBs in PvE for one thing. I mean if your idea of PvE is like world bosses, dolmens, and solo arenas then I suppose I see where it helps but wasn't NB already good at that? I thought they needed help in group content... Dungeons and trials. Do NBs use invisibility in dungeons and trials?

    For PvP... A spell that gives major savagery AND a guaranteed crit is a little redundant, so not quite as powerful offensively as some people may think. But as Static already said what becomes egregious is having it effect both bars and therefore healing.

    In the end it was just a barspace-saving-quality-of-life type thing that NBs really just didn't need.

    Current PvP NB operates a lot like original Oakensoul. You just don't have any buff management; your entire PvP experience is just burst combos and power heals punctuated by occasional periods of invisibility.
  • TechMaybeHic
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    I like low buff management; but the overloading in one class is over the top beyond that. And I am pretty much maining NB now while saying that.
    Edited by TechMaybeHic on November 23, 2023 3:37PM
  • IncultaWolf
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    Going from playing a necromancer, to a nightblade in pvp, I can say it feels like I enabled cheat codes. Within a few days of picking up a brawler nightblade with the new buffs, I was doing a lot of 1vx in IC.
  • Vaqual
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    I left one point unadressed:
    StaticWave wrote: »
    Only a minority are non-vampire cloak users, if there are any. The vast majority of them are Vampire to make use of the 300 WD passive as well as other Vamp passives. You are using a very small percentage of the player base as basis for your argument, which doesn't really make this part of your argument very strong.

    I am not using a small percentage of players as an argument, I am saying that balancing a classes power budget around an optional skill line with inherent drawbacks would just be bad game design 💯.
    If needed, they should address this interaction without hampering non-vamp NBs and forcing playstyles onto players.
    Same goes for DKs. It is not their fault that everyone is stage 3, nobody would ask for their fire damage skills to be nerfed for that.

    If they find a surgical way of severing that link without breaking stuff that would be the most fair, but also a rather boring solution.

    Sure, optional stuff will impact various classes differently. In the end attack from the shadows + cloak is quite thematic. Warden works uniquely well with ice staffs. Is it fair? Not really. Is it good for the game? I think it is.

    I would find it more interesting to see more skills interact outside of their skill line, rather then eliminating synergies. If only a few synergies exist they can feel restricting and unfair, I agree. But there are multiple ways to manage that, and some have the potential to make the game better, while other will just move imbalances elsewhere.

  • Alchimiste1
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    NB cloak is fair and balanced. Maybe its even underperforming

    -Me a ganker main.
  • boi_anachronism_
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    "It just works" - God Howard
  • RemoryAzure
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    i dont even think that a guy 2 posts above is trolling.
    Cloak is extremely strong on paper, but when it comes to practice, u wont be able to hide from a good player, thus making the whole slot on ur bar useless, and what is more important, u waste time and mana trying to escape and it punishes u hard when fails.
    as mag NB main, the core thing is MANA here, coz even 3k mana regen is NOT enough to sustain on MAG nb, and unlike stam nb's, my playstyle is extremely limited in it's possibilities of cloaking
    on the other hand, i agree that cloak is also too strong when u have a "luck proc", or when ganking, or when the enemy doesnt have anti stealth abilities and so on.

    TLDR: i agree with any nerfs incoming to cloak, but please do something with it's cost, reduce it, or maybe change it to stam ability, idk, coz its nearly impossible to use effectively on mag nb.
  • Bushido2513
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    Vaqual wrote: »
    I left one point unadressed:
    StaticWave wrote: »
    Only a minority are non-vampire cloak users, if there are any. The vast majority of them are Vampire to make use of the 300 WD passive as well as other Vamp passives. You are using a very small percentage of the player base as basis for your argument, which doesn't really make this part of your argument very strong.

    I am not using a small percentage of players as an argument, I am saying that balancing a classes power budget around an optional skill line with inherent drawbacks would just be bad game design 💯.
    If needed, they should address this interaction without hampering non-vamp NBs and forcing playstyles onto players.
    Same goes for DKs. It is not their fault that everyone is stage 3, nobody would ask for their fire damage skills to be nerfed for that.

    If they find a surgical way of severing that link without breaking stuff that would be the most fair, but also a rather boring solution.

    Sure, optional stuff will impact various classes differently. In the end attack from the shadows + cloak is quite thematic. Warden works uniquely well with ice staffs. Is it fair? Not really. Is it good for the game? I think it is.

    I would find it more interesting to see more skills interact outside of their skill line, rather then eliminating synergies. If only a few synergies exist they can feel restricting and unfair, I agree. But there are multiple ways to manage that, and some have the potential to make the game better, while other will just move imbalances elsewhere.

    So as part of game design you also have to address when something shows up too much in the player base. Yes vamp and NB are their own separate things but you also have to be fair and say something needs to be looked at when the majority of NB are vamp.

    There is already a thread to rebalance vamp and that's related to undeath. It's not related to the damage passive because really only NB is using that. Basically yes you can say it's technically it's own thing but with vamp being basically on every NB you have to give it a bit more weight as an issue.

    Now here's the thing, I don't think static wanted any power removed in terms of damage. The argument is about having high end damage and defense in one of the most efficient packages we've seen in a long time. Savagery just wasn't needed to be honest, most people can see that I think. The other stuff is mostly fine if you just bring the defensive options in line a bit.


    As far as I'm concerned NB can keep the high melee burst but the trade-off should be high risk/ reward based on the skill of the player.
  • Vaqual
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    Vaqual wrote: »
    I left one point unadressed:
    StaticWave wrote: »
    Only a minority are non-vampire cloak users, if there are any. The vast majority of them are Vampire to make use of the 300 WD passive as well as other Vamp passives. You are using a very small percentage of the player base as basis for your argument, which doesn't really make this part of your argument very strong.

    I am not using a small percentage of players as an argument, I am saying that balancing a classes power budget around an optional skill line with inherent drawbacks would just be bad game design 💯.
    If needed, they should address this interaction without hampering non-vamp NBs and forcing playstyles onto players.
    Same goes for DKs. It is not their fault that everyone is stage 3, nobody would ask for their fire damage skills to be nerfed for that.

    If they find a surgical way of severing that link without breaking stuff that would be the most fair, but also a rather boring solution.

    Sure, optional stuff will impact various classes differently. In the end attack from the shadows + cloak is quite thematic. Warden works uniquely well with ice staffs. Is it fair? Not really. Is it good for the game? I think it is.

    I would find it more interesting to see more skills interact outside of their skill line, rather then eliminating synergies. If only a few synergies exist they can feel restricting and unfair, I agree. But there are multiple ways to manage that, and some have the potential to make the game better, while other will just move imbalances elsewhere.

    So as part of game design you also have to address when something shows up too much in the player base. Yes vamp and NB are their own separate things but you also have to be fair and say something needs to be looked at when the majority of NB are vamp.

    There is already a thread to rebalance vamp and that's related to undeath. It's not related to the damage passive because really only NB is using that. Basically yes you can say it's technically it's own thing but with vamp being basically on every NB you have to give it a bit more weight as an issue.

    Now here's the thing, I don't think static wanted any power removed in terms of damage. The argument is about having high end damage and defense in one of the most efficient packages we've seen in a long time. Savagery just wasn't needed to be honest, most people can see that I think. The other stuff is mostly fine if you just bring the defensive options in line a bit.


    As far as I'm concerned NB can keep the high melee burst but the trade-off should be high risk/ reward based on the skill of the player.

    Yes, I get that. And my concern is just how the risk is increased, without trashing sensible defensive options for non-burst playstyles. Because, based on the way the devs explain their vision for the game, it appears to me that the option to play NB differently should exist.
  • Bushido2513
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    i dont even think that a guy 2 posts above is trolling.
    Cloak is extremely strong on paper, but when it comes to practice, u wont be able to hide from a good player, thus making the whole slot on ur bar useless, and what is more important, u waste time and mana trying to escape and it punishes u hard when fails.
    as mag NB main, the core thing is MANA here, coz even 3k mana regen is NOT enough to sustain on MAG nb, and unlike stam nb's, my playstyle is extremely limited in it's possibilities of cloaking
    on the other hand, i agree that cloak is also too strong when u have a "luck proc", or when ganking, or when the enemy doesnt have anti stealth abilities and so on.

    TLDR: i agree with any nerfs incoming to cloak, but please do something with it's cost, reduce it, or maybe change it to stam ability, idk, coz its nearly impossible to use effectively on mag nb.

    There's a lot of room for variation here. What people think of as a good player, how your build works, etc.

    I can say that on a full damage build you'll have to be a better player to escape a similarly good player once your revealed. It's definitely still doable though if you have path and know how to juke a bit.

    On a build where you've speced into a bit of speed and your heal tooltip and reaction times are good you have a much better change of getting away once discovered. I've been on both sides of this exchange enough times to say that yes you can definitely get killed while using cloak but that you'll also have a great ability to still reset the fight even after getting revealed. Movement speed, defenses, and healing are just too easily available with little trade-off being that NB has power to spare
  • OBJnoob
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    Using shadowy disguise gives you major resolve, major savagery, a guaranteed crit, 300 weapon damage if you're a vampire, and major berserk if you have Concealed Weapon slotted.

    It could not even make you invisible and it'd still be worth a slot.

    People need to stop trying to use cloak like a get out of jail free card. If you get revealed then just fight like everybody else.

    I swear... People that think cloak needs to work better must've never PvPed as anything else. You're seen and so you're screwed? Lol.

    Stop trying to rely so heavily on attacking unaware targets and maybe when you meet an aware one, some day, you'll know what to do.
  • RemoryAzure
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    OBJnoob wrote: »
    People need to stop trying to use cloak like a get out of jail free card. If you get revealed then just fight like everybody else.

    then what's the point of NB existence then? vamp's passive is sufficient enough for this, u are invisible while moving and once u start combat u cant enter stealth again. this is NB's core mechanic, that he can enter stealth in combat.

    first workaround that comes to mind here, if u wanna achieve this "fight like a man" mentality, is to give stealth a penalty that after leaving it, u cant enter again for... 6 seconds, for example? but there's already problem here: any enemy with stealth detection skills makes stealth very hard to use right now, with that penalty it will be totally impossible to deal with (unless u have shade slotted so that means u waste 2 bar slots just for escape while there are classes out there (hi dk) who can comfortably live under pressure of multiple people), so the only solution will be disposal of stealth detection from skills (pots are okay since they have cd). but that only makes the game less skillful which is already quite the problem coz eso has a very tiny gap between a newbie and a pro, i dont mean the actual player skill level, im talking about learning curve, eso's combat is very simplified and for a good player it takes like a week to master everything.
  • StaticWave
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    then what's the point of NB existence then? vamp's passive is sufficient enough for this, u are invisible while moving and once u start combat u cant enter stealth again. this is NB's core mechanic, that he can enter stealth in combat.

    Let's be fair. The notion that NB's core existence is stealth is no longer a strong argument. If something is a core existence, then the class should require it to perform effectively.

    That is no longer the case with the current NB. NB currently has access to both Major + Minor Expedition and a 4s snare cleanse/immunity that gives a free dodge roll every few seconds. NB also has Shadow Image that lets it teleport through walls. These things combined make this class on par with Sorc in terms of slipperiness and kiting prowess. No Cloak needed there.


    first workaround that comes to mind here, if u wanna achieve this "fight like a man" mentality, is to give stealth a penalty that after leaving it, u cant enter again for... 6 seconds, for example? but there's already problem here: any enemy with stealth detection skills makes stealth very hard to use right now, with that penalty it will be totally impossible to deal with

    I personally would opt for a universal ability similar to Piercing Mark, but with a longer duration. 3s is too short to do anything meaningful imo. A universal ability that lets the user see invisible or stealthing enemies for 6 seconds should be enough. It's basically similar to how you need to slot a gap closer against Streaking Sorcs.






    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • CameraBeardThePirate
    CameraBeardThePirate
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    Ramping Cloak Cost.

    Seriously. You'd still be able to use cloak to get some breathing room or kite in combat, but you'd no longer be able to cloak indefinitely whenever you want.
  • Bushido2513
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    OBJnoob wrote: »
    Using shadowy disguise gives you major resolve, major savagery, a guaranteed crit, 300 weapon damage if you're a vampire, and major berserk if you have Concealed Weapon slotted.

    It could not even make you invisible and it'd still be worth a slot.

    People need to stop trying to use cloak like a get out of jail free card. If you get revealed then just fight like everybody else.

    I swear... People that think cloak needs to work better must've never PvPed as anything else. You're seen and so you're screwed? Lol.

    Stop trying to rely so heavily on attacking unaware targets and maybe when you meet an aware one, some day, you'll know what to do.

    Using what the game gives you to win is just playing smart. If you're happy with your personal results then listening to anyone tell you how to play your game is usually a bad idea.

    If the people playing cloak were unhappy with the results wouldn't they just stop on their own?

    As for what makes for good gameplay or combat I say never let anyone tell you how to enjoy the game you paid to play.

    Also I'm not a NB main or anything like that but I do know that if you give them the chance people will criticize everything about the way you play if it isn't to their standards.

    The following are some of the examples of what people will complain about just for reference.

    Cloak spam
    Beam spam
    Block spam
    Streak spam
    Running or los usage
    Shield spam
    Roll dodge spam

    And the list goes on.


    I think it's interesting that some see this as an MMA cage match and others see it as a tactical engagement. They both have very different operating principles so I could see where it probably feels weird to step up with your gloves on only you be taken out by a drone strike. Still both are valid approaches.
  • Bushido2513
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    Ramping Cloak Cost.

    Seriously. You'd still be able to use cloak to get some breathing room or kite in combat, but you'd no longer be able to cloak indefinitely whenever you want.

    I used to argue only that this would affect different playstyles to different degrees which I don't agree with but now I can also say that a NB could just heal or maneuver around the ramp and probably still be just as effective.

    This is why I'd rather leave it as is and just make the burst heal be a choice vs cloak.
  • OBJnoob
    OBJnoob
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    OBJnoob wrote: »
    People need to stop trying to use cloak like a get out of jail free card. If you get revealed then just fight like everybody else.

    then what's the point of NB existence then? vamp's passive is sufficient enough for this, u are invisible while moving and once u start combat u cant enter stealth again. this is NB's core mechanic, that he can enter stealth in combat.

    first workaround that comes to mind here, if u wanna achieve this "fight like a man" mentality, is to give stealth a penalty that after leaving it, u cant enter again for... 6 seconds, for example? but there's already problem here: any enemy with stealth detection skills makes stealth very hard to use right now, with that penalty it will be totally impossible to deal with (unless u have shade slotted so that means u waste 2 bar slots just for escape while there are classes out there (hi dk) who can comfortably live under pressure of multiple people), so the only solution will be disposal of stealth detection from skills (pots are okay since they have cd). but that only makes the game less skillful which is already quite the problem coz eso has a very tiny gap between a newbie and a pro, i dont mean the actual player skill level, im talking about learning curve, eso's combat is very simplified and for a good player it takes like a week to master everything.

    I don't know what you mean by "what's the point of NB existence then." Invis is still plenty useful for PvE. Your ability to use the blade of woe, pass through dungeons unseen and only kill bosses, travel from resource node to resource node, and other stuff is still entirely unparalleled. It's only when it comes to PvP that balance becomes an issue. And it should be kinda obvious that one class shouldn't have unchecked power to make everyone else as oblivious as an NPC? But, even in PvP, it remains useful. You can sit on the outskirts of fights unseen, watching things unfold and deciding upon a target. You can approach undisturbed and open up with a fat crit of your choosing.

    But once you've opened up on a target, since it isn't an NPC, your ability to just dip out whenever you want needs to be checked. So there are detect pots. And certain revealing skills people can use. Some classes incorporate this anyway as part of their kit... Yes, if I'm on my DK, I am going to chase you spamming Noxious Breath. That's an organic counter. It just is what it is. It's still a small concession on the DKs part because it isn't the ability that does the most damage it's just the one that'll hit a cloak spamming NB. If you were anyone else you'd be getting whipped. And there doesn't need to be a counter to this counter. Because there already are organic counters. You can HEAL. You can run out of range. You can turn on them and try to win a fight.

    Other classes may not have a counter. So they can use a guild skill... Or run detect pots. These are much bigger concessions to make, because they have little use anywhere else. So if everybody else is tasked with needing to have counters ready for invisible enemies it doesn't seem that strange to me that a NB might be asked to also make a sacrifice in their build to deal with something that counters them. You just need an organic counter. A heal. A kite. A block. Play the game! Hit literally any button except Shadowy Disguise.

    If you like the high risk high reward playstyle then go ahead and glass yourself up. If you can't kill anyone on an invisible glass cannon NB then that's a you issue. They have plenty of damage. But don't reap all the rewards and then complain about the risks.

    Incidentally NBs aren't forced into a high risk playstyle anymore. That might be what you choose but that isn't all they're good for. Just because you choose not to use Shade, Vigor, Mirage, Fear, Healthy Offering, doesn't mean the NB class-- who has all these survival tools-- needs to be balanced around you.

    All the other players that actually know how to PvP will be obscenely strong and cancerous to the game.

    That being said... I don't necessarily think Shadowy Disguise needs to be weaker either. I don't think it should give major savagery, but the ability to be invisible is fine BECAUSE there are counters. A ramping cost might be in order-- mostly just because other similar skills have one. But I'm not upset that NBs get to walk around invisible. I am however a little upset that people would suggest it isn't strong enough. Upset and deeply confused. If you think the NB identity is "do whatever you want then go invisible to continue doing whatever you want," then you're just wrong.
  • Turtle_Bot
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    OBJnoob wrote: »
    If you like the high risk high reward playstyle then go ahead and glass yourself up. If you can't kill anyone on an invisible glass cannon NB then that's a you issue. They have plenty of damage. But don't reap all the rewards and then complain about the risks.

    Incidentally NBs aren't forced into a high risk playstyle anymore. That might be what you choose but that isn't all they're good for. Just because you choose not to use Shade, Vigor, Mirage, Fear, Healthy Offering, doesn't mean the NB class-- who has all these survival tools-- needs to be balanced around you.

    All the other players that actually know how to PvP will be obscenely strong and cancerous to the game.

    That being said... I don't necessarily think Shadowy Disguise needs to be weaker either. I don't think it should give major savagery, but the ability to be invisible is fine BECAUSE there are counters. A ramping cost might be in order-- mostly just because other similar skills have one. But I'm not upset that NBs get to walk around invisible. I am however a little upset that people would suggest it isn't strong enough. Upset and deeply confused. If you think the NB identity is "do whatever you want then go invisible to continue doing whatever you want," then you're just wrong.

    The other part of what has been so upsetting about the comments made by those who were using that as an excuse to claim that its not strong enough, is that they also had the gall to turn around and tell those calling for the weaker classes to receive buffs to simply update their builds while at the same time refusing to update their own builds to take advantage of the countless tools given to their class and using that as the entire basis for their claims to prevent any balance being done on their class but also as an excuse to attempt to prevent any buffs from being given to the weaker classes...
  • OBJnoob
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    Yup. Again... Major resolve, major savagery, guaranteed crit, 300 weapon damage if vampire (and you are, lol,) major berserk if using Concealed (and you are, lol.)

    If it were a 5-piece it'd be the strongest set in the game. Seriously, it'd be worth putting on your bar even if it didn't make you go invisible.

    Like you can click it, get immediately revealed, and you're still strong AF.
  • TechMaybeHic
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    I run my NB as a brawler and use cloak as a buff. Just kind of a bonus that it makes you go invisible. Most decent players do have ways to keep you visible but it's still good and still have a chance they don't. Especially if you are fast and/or know how to use Shadow image. And its still essentially a mag dodge that does not have the recourse of a Stam dodge
    Edited by TechMaybeHic on December 16, 2023 5:30PM
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