arcanist low health bug?

React

Brakkish wrote: »

@React

Simple: Desyncs (if we were to concede it's in fact a desync) are an unintended anomaly with the game that can occur for a number of reasons, irresponsible to claim we know all reasons at this point. A bug in the game. Surely we agree on that.


It's a bug when something in game is unintended.
It's an exploit when something unintended is repeated at will for benefit.

It isn't "repeated at will". It just happens. Just like every single other desync in the game. There isn't a distinct "benefit" to being desynced like this either. Both the person who is desynced, and the people who are targeting that person cannot tell what their HP is.

By your logic, if I can't break free of a stun the person that stunned me is an "exploiter" who is cheating, right?

https://streamable.com/47pyf3
https://streamable.com/d3m1os

And if I get location desynced by a person using a knockback/knockup stun, they're exploiting right?

https://streamable.com/cd9tya

Leap cancels your dodge roll if you get hit while CC immune in a dodge. So if someone leaps me while I'm dodge rolling with CC immunity, they're exploiting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUIsp8gRu1c

Leap often doesn't provide a stun animation. So if I get leapt and don't receive an animation so that I can immediately know to break free, then that DK is abusing an exploit right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgtDocSWXJ0

Now if you were to argue something like the negate bug, which was introduced at the beginning of the patch and then fixed later, I'd agree with you. But desyncs like this aren't done intentionally, and they don't benefit the victim anymore than they harm that person.

Brakkish

Goa

React wrote: »

<snip> But desyncs like this aren't done intentionally, and they don't benefit the victim anymore than they harm that person.

I respect your viewpoint; but disagree completely.
The statement is full of assumption as not all can agree therefore It can't be considered.

I do appreciate the back and forth though, I like a good discussion. But knowing it's a post away from being moderated for "Back and Forth" - I'll agree to disagree to keep it simplistic and open to other commentary.

React

Brakkish wrote: »

Goa

React wrote: »

<snip> But desyncs like this aren't done intentionally, and they don't benefit the victim anymore than they harm that person.

I respect your viewpoint; but disagree completely.
The statement is full of assumption as not all can agree therefore It can't be considered.

I do appreciate the back and forth though, I like a good discussion. But knowing it's a post away from being moderated for "Back and Forth" - I'll agree to disagree to keep it simplistic and open to other commentary.

I mean you can disagree if you'd like, but it is factual that this is a health desync. I'm telling you that because I understand how health desyncs work from experience, and I went out firsthand to experience this bug so I could confirm this.

It's just disingenuous and harmful to insist that people who are experiencing this bug are exploiting or abusing it in some way, when you don't even understand what is occurring.

SandandStars

Lots of players have used/abused the desync that is present in ESO PVP for the years I’ve been playing.

Ever notice how certain stamsorc 2h/dizzy spammers will hit you from 30m away, knock you flat on your back for five seconds and continue to dizzy/execute while your controller (xbox) is unresponsive?

The same is true for the stun version of incap, and werewolf’s fear in battlegrounds. With desync, you will be stuck in the stun animation for five seconds, unable to break free, which most of the time is the end of the fight.

Do people think that the werewolves spamming fear, and blades using incap stun, the 2h dizzy spammers, are unaware of this?

I don’t mean to be pessimistic, but if the arcanist zero health “bug” is simply another symptom of desync, which seems likely, we’re all just going to have to get used to it.

I agree that most Arcs are unaware of how it is happening, and are not using it as an exploit. But that’s not really the main issue from my perspective. I’m disappointed that there is yet another crappy glitch that makes PVP less fun play.

React

SandandStars wrote: »

Lots of players have used/abused the desync that is present in ESO PVP for the years I’ve been playing.

Ever notice how certain stamsorc 2h/dizzy spammers will hit you from 30m away, knock you flat on your back for five seconds and continue to dizzy/execute while your controller (xbox) is unresponsive?

The same is true for the stun version of incap, and werewolf’s fear in battlegrounds. With desync, you will be stuck in the stun animation for five seconds, unable to break free, which most of the time is the end of the fight.

Do people think that the werewolves spamming fear, and blades using incap stun, the 2h dizzy spammers, are unaware of this?

I don’t mean to be pessimistic, but if the arcanist zero health “bug” is simply another symptom of desync, which seems likely, we’re all just going to have to get used to it.

I agree that most Arcs are unaware of how it is happening, and are not using it as an exploit. But that’s not really the main issue from my perspective. I’m disappointed that there is yet another crappy glitch that makes PVP less fun play.

You're talking about multiple completely different things, none of which have anything to do with health desync.

The first example you gave would be "location desync", although getting hit from further away than should be possible due to location desync having nothing to do with being unable to break free. The following two examples you gave have nothing to do with health or location desync, CC break itself is buggy and does not always work properly. People just often assign the term "desync" to bugs they don't understand.

Health desync is when your health value becomes permanently (until death or relog) visually desynchronized from it's actual value, and then the user interface reports a value other than what your health actually is.

I do agree that in general it sucks that these things are present, but this was reported on the original PTS for arcanist and is still present today.

SandandStars

youre right. i figured if it’s a delay in time/calculations between one player, the server, and another player, then that’s what “desync”(chronization) refers to.

can you you give me a clearer definition so that I have a better understanding of what’s going on? i’d appreciate it.

React

SandandStars wrote: »

youre right. i figured if it’s a delay in time/calculations between one player, the server, and another player, then that’s what “desync”(chronization) refers to.

can you you give me a clearer definition so that I have a better understanding of what’s going on? i’d appreciate it.

In the case of health desyncs, its just a failure of the game to properly update the UI to reflect the value of your health after certain criteria are met (refer to my earlier comment for some examples of these criteria). In the case of location desync, there are sort of two things that the term is frequently used to describe. The first is that there is sort of an ever present "location desync" on the server end, which prevents it from accurately determing the location of two players in relation to one another. This is why you frequently see "out of range" on targets that are definitely in range, and why you sometimes get hit from seemingly out of range. Basically, people are never exactly where they appear to be ingame. The second thing the term is often used to describe is that you can also become severly "location desynced" by certain things. In particular, magnum shot, aurora javelin, meteor, leap, chains, silver leash, and pull sets tend to cause this to happen.

Here is an example of the latter. I get hit by a stun, and although visually on my screen my character is moving up the stairs after breaking free and attempting (but failing) to use abilities, the reality that every other player is witnessing is that my character is standing still in a stun in the location I was originally CC'd in. You can tell this is the case by closely watching the clip, and observing where the enemies are targeting and where the projectiles are coming from as they hit my character on my end. Just like health desync, this isn't done intentionally.

https://streamable.com/cd9tya

It's just that the CC breaking issues have nothing to do with either of these things (presumably).

Here are several examples of the break free issue which I presume is what you're referencing. I promise, the players doing this have no control over it whatsoever and are not doing it intentionally.

https://streamable.com/47pyf3
https://streamable.com/d3m1os

SandandStars

Thanks @React , This really helps. I use a wireless router and my latency sits between 80 and 100 ms. I have read in various posts that this likely makes lag and desync worse for me than someone on a wired connection. Of course since I don’t have a wired connection, I can’t really check to see if this is true.

What I can say is that 90% of the time when I get cc’d by something like werewolves fear or incap, my character just stands there swooning or crouch-stunned for at least five seconds, and I’m pretty much dead, regardless of having enough stamina to break free. So what you are saying is that the cc bug is unrelated to desync or lag. I had been under the impression that my controller responses to break free were simply not getting through to the server, which is why the stun animation continues playing as though I am not trying to break free, or do not have the stamina to do so. But it is actually a separate bug? Sorry for my ignorance. I really do appreciate your knowledge on this. Thanks

Theignson

React wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

Goa

React wrote: »

<snip> But desyncs like this aren't done intentionally, and they don't benefit the victim anymore than they harm that person.

I respect your viewpoint; but disagree completely.
The statement is full of assumption as not all can agree therefore It can't be considered.

I do appreciate the back and forth though, I like a good discussion. But knowing it's a post away from being moderated for "Back and Forth" - I'll agree to disagree to keep it simplistic and open to other commentary.

I mean you can disagree if you'd like, but it is factual that this is a health desync. I'm telling you that because I understand how health desyncs work from experience, and I went out firsthand to experience this bug so I could confirm this.

It's just disingenuous and harmful to insist that people who are experiencing this bug are exploiting or abusing it in some way, when you don't even understand what is occurring.

React,
Can you tell us how you replicated this bug? Of course I know and respect your experience in the game (I've even paid you for your advice on Twitch at times;). You are the best player I've ever known.
However, I also have at least 10,000 hours and have played all the classes and this is the strangest bug I've seen. I've played my arcanist for 20 some levels and never had it. Also, I've only seen it regularly on one player-- so what are they doing/what setup do they have, to induce this desync, is the question?
I've had fantastic location desyncs wherein my screen shows my character moving for 5, 7 seconds, unable to cast, then I die back where the desync happened.
I've had health desyncs where I die suddenly from full health to zero.
But I've never had 10, 12 people whacking me while I'm apparently at zero health, not blocking, and still dishing out damage, and never die. Like I said, their health drops rapidly and only stops dropping at 5% or so.
How would you know from your perspective as a player whether what you experienced is what is happening here? In other words, do you know that other players were seeing you at zero health while you were not at zero health-- how would you know that? Did you receive tells?
I assume as a health desync what you mean is this players screen does not show zero health, but what we see on our screens is zero health-- however, the player would not necessarily know that
All that being said, of course I have seen tanks that can take damage from 10, 15 players and not die. Maybe if you add in the impervious rune plus undeath to an otherwise tank setup, this is what you get. But, I use that rune all the time and Im stage 3 vamp and as far as I know this has not happened to me( but would I know it??)

React

Theignson wrote: »

React wrote: »

Brakkish wrote: »

Goa

React wrote: »

<snip> But desyncs like this aren't done intentionally, and they don't benefit the victim anymore than they harm that person.

I respect your viewpoint; but disagree completely.
The statement is full of assumption as not all can agree therefore It can't be considered.

I do appreciate the back and forth though, I like a good discussion. But knowing it's a post away from being moderated for "Back and Forth" - I'll agree to disagree to keep it simplistic and open to other commentary.

I mean you can disagree if you'd like, but it is factual that this is a health desync. I'm telling you that because I understand how health desyncs work from experience, and I went out firsthand to experience this bug so I could confirm this.

It's just disingenuous and harmful to insist that people who are experiencing this bug are exploiting or abusing it in some way, when you don't even understand what is occurring.

React,
Can you tell us how you replicated this bug? Of course I know and respect your experience in the game (I've even paid you for your advice on Twitch at times;). You are the best player I've ever known.
However, I also have at least 10,000 hours and have played all the classes and this is the strangest bug I've seen. I've played my arcanist for 20 some levels and never had it. Also, I've only seen it regularly on one player-- so what are they doing/what setup do they have, to induce this desync, is the question?
I've had fantastic location desyncs wherein my screen shows my character moving for 5, 7 seconds, unable to cast, then I die back where the desync happened.
I've had health desyncs where I die suddenly from full health to zero.
But I've never had 10, 12 people whacking me while I'm apparently at zero health, not blocking, and still dishing out damage, and never die. Like I said, their health drops rapidly and only stops dropping at 5% or so.
How would you know from your perspective as a player whether what you experienced is what is happening here? In other words, do you know that other players were seeing you at zero health while you were not at zero health-- how would you know that? Did you receive tells?
I assume as a health desync what you mean is this players screen does not show zero health, but what we see on our screens is zero health-- however, the player would not necessarily know that
All that being said, of course I have seen tanks that can take damage from 10, 15 players and not die. Maybe if you add in the impervious rune plus undeath to an otherwise tank setup, this is what you get. But, I use that rune all the time and Im stage 3 vamp and as far as I know this has not happened to me( but would I know it??)

Appreciate the support.

So when I replicated this, all I did was go solo PVP for several hours. Doing the typical 1vX play I like, getting hit by a lot of people, spamming abilities, not dying. After multiple fights and being alive for nearly an hour, I started to notice my health value on my UI hitting 0. It would make sense that it would take a good amount of time in combat/without dying before you noticed this, as typically desyncs get worse and "stack" the more they occur.

A while after noticing this I decided to just die because I figured I was desync'd, and the circumstance of my death more or less confirmed this to me - I stopped casting abilities/doing anything while getting hit by a few people, and just 2 or 3 seconds after my health value hit 0 on my UI I died.

There have been health desyncs related to damage shields in the past, and it seems likely to me that this desync is probably caused by taking heavy damage while spamming impervious runeward. This is just a guess really, but out of the toolkit this is the most likely culprit. Could also be the bubble ult as it's a "damage shield" that only absorbs 60% of damage, a mechanic that hasn't existed in ESO before. Could even be the runeguard of freedom, which is another unique skill that also has several buggy interactions tied to it.

My bar setup was as follows
DW - Turn Evil, Quick Cloak, Recuprative, rending slashes, cephiarch, unblinking eye
Ice - Runeguard, Evolving runemend, cruxweaver armor, impervious runeward, ele susc, Sanctum

No crazy sets that would have caused this, unless it's related to Death Dealer's Fete.

It is important to understand that a vampire arcanist with 45-50k HP, who is on low HP spamming impervious runeward, is undoubtedly the tankiest thing that exists in the game outside of a few specific pure tank setups. If the health desync is only visible when they're on low HP, there are going to be plenty of scenarios where a health desynced arcanist is getting hit by a zerg while appearing to take no damage at 0 HP.

SandandStars wrote: »

Thanks @React , This really helps. I use a wireless router and my latency sits between 80 and 100 ms. I have read in various posts that this likely makes lag and desync worse for me than someone on a wired connection. Of course since I don’t have a wired connection, I can’t really check to see if this is true.

What I can say is that 90% of the time when I get cc’d by something like werewolves fear or incap, my character just stands there swooning or crouch-stunned for at least five seconds, and I’m pretty much dead, regardless of having enough stamina to break free. So what you are saying is that the cc bug is unrelated to desync or lag. I had been under the impression that my controller responses to break free were simply not getting through to the server, which is why the stun animation continues playing as though I am not trying to break free, or do not have the stamina to do so. But it is actually a separate bug? Sorry for my ignorance. I really do appreciate your knowledge on this. Thanks

You'll certainly experience more lag on a wireless connection, and more scenarios where you might run into things like not breaking free due to a delay of inputs from your end. This will be especially noticeable on a poor quality wireless connection.

That said, yes there are plenty of scenarios where the game will not allow you to break free due to a bug, like the two clips I linked above. I'm not really sure what causes those honestly. They've been present for years and I've never seen a consistent factor between the instances where they occur, other than the skills I see causing it the most frequently are fossilize, streak, and javelin.

Brakkish

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650443/new-arcanist-zombies-video/p1?new=1

React

Brakkish wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650443/new-arcanist-zombies-video/p1?new=1

Looks like health desync. Every time they're hitting "0%", they're pressing impervious runeward, which can be upwards of a 20k shield. On top of that, you're dealing almost 0 damage yourself, so it's unlikely you'd break that ward before they heal.

Brakkish

I suspect the tooltip is for others - reasonable to assume that since I'm playing an Arc in the video and spam the skill, I'm aware of it's use.