I think we should hear more about Crowns expiring after 6 months in Japan

Nebs

In today's patch notes, we were informed that players in Japan will see their Crowns expire after 6 months.


Can we hear more about this? Are my Crowns at risk of expiring in 6 months eventually? Is this just a test to see how much it negatively affects player purchases? Can players in Japan earn Crowns outside of buying them directly? Is Microsoft just taking advantage of Japanese law that allows them to expire purchased digital currency?

I enjoy taking advantage of Crown sales when they happen to stockpile for the year to pick up new items, but I can't comfortably do that any more knowing that, as far as I know, the "test" on players in Japan might suddenly and they'll start rolling out the policy worldwide.

The only mention of something expiring in the current terms of service available on the elderscrollsonline website was mention that Digital Goods might expire 180 days after an account isn't logged into during that time (which is also kind of messed up as an aside? Is Zenimax in their right to revoke access to my DLC and Chapters if I take a half a year break from the game? But now I'm getting distracted).


EDIT (thanks!):

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just following up on this. The note for Japan is due to us keeping in accordance with Japanese law regarding virtual currency. This only for Japan and will not impact other territories.

YetAnotherLinuxUser

now here's cause not to buy eso+ if i buy eso+ and i wish to save up the crowns for a large purchase i can't because they will expire in 6 months?

If i were living in japan i would immediately quit eso.

Soraka

I noticed that too. I'm glad you're asking.

Jimbru

Seeing as this change is restricted to Japan, it most likely has something to do with Japanese laws and legal compliance. Perhaps someone from Japan or ZOS who knows the relevant legalities can comment.

That said, to take the plain reading of the language, it seems like the crowns will expire only if:

A. The account is closed, which is understandable. When your account is deleted, so is everything in it.

B. 180 days past the most recent login by you, or the end of your membership for the "applicable service". So it's not just a "180 days after purchase" expiration; there are conditions that trigger the start of the 180 day timer. So the way I read this is, if you're playing regularly, you should be fine. if you just leave the game and walk away, if you're gone more than 180 days, your crowns may expire.

I would like clarification from ZOS of what "applicable service" means. Does that mean ESO Plus and all the things attached to it? What about DLC content we have purchased, our pets and mounts and other things?

ghastley

That’s 180 days of not logging in. Log in before that and it resets.

Vynera

Jimbru wrote: »

B. 180 days past the most recent login by you, or the end of your membership for the "applicable service". So it's not just a "180 days after purchase" expiration; there are conditions that trigger the start of the 180 day timer. So the way I read this is, if you're playing regularly, you should be fine. if you just leave the game and walk away, if you're gone more than 180 days, your crowns may expire.

But it's not just crowns, above the screenshotted section of the OP there is a definition what is "Downloadable Content"
So by definition it's not just crowns (virtual currency), basically any unlockable content as of cosmetics / achievements / Inventory (virtual items), or do I understand that wrong?

YetAnotherLinuxUser

i think everybody is understanding it wrong.

Jimbru

Vynera wrote: »

But it's not just crowns, above the screenshotted section of the OP there is a definition what is "Downloadable Content" So by definition it's not just crowns (virtual currency), basically any unlockable content as of cosmetics / achievements / Inventory (virtual items), or do I understand that wrong?

That is why I said we need a clarification of what the "applicable service" is. We need a clear statement of what all this applies to. Because I mean, if you want to extend it as far as the whole hyperbolic slippery slope will go, technically the ENTIRE GAME is downloadable content.

Nebs

Yes, Downloadable Content is a very broad description of basically the entire account and everything in it.
Also yes, as described, it's 180 days of account inactivity. Which I still don't like, because that's not even a half-year break. However, we're getting distracted and I don't want that to be the focus of discussion.

I think the focus should be on Crowns suddenly getting an expiration date on certain players, and I think we need to hear more context about this sudden change so we can determine if accounts in other regions might be subject to this change and adjust our behavior accordingly.

Department stores stopped making Gift Cards expire in the US for a reason

ProudMary

Why though? Why this new policy of expiring? And why only in Japan? Would ZOS do this worldwide if they could?

YetAnotherLinuxUser

ProudMary wrote: »

Why though? Why this new policy of expiring? And why only in Japan? Would ZOS do this worldwide if they could?

as a general rule, corporations do whatever the laws allow if it is deemed in their best iterest to do so and quite often ignore the law if they have set a different policy. corporations operate from a supposed stance of amoral behavior. You should always keep a keen eye on the behavior of corporations.

centime

ProudMary wrote: »

Why though? Why this new policy of expiring? And why only in Japan? Would ZOS do this worldwide if they could?

I'm sure ZOS isn't doing it arbitrarily or for some capricious reason. There may be legal reasons relevant to Japan that don't occur elsewhere in the world. Perhaps it is best to wait for clarification from them before making assumptions.

Nebs

centime wrote: »

I'm sure ZOS isn't doing it arbitrarily or for some capricious reason. There may be legal reasons relevant to Japan that don't occur elsewhere in the world. Perhaps it is best to wait for clarification from them before making assumptions.

This is exactly why I wanted to start this discussion to get a response from the developers. That single line in the patch notes carries way to much baggage to not be addressed with more context.

centime

Nebs wrote: »

centime wrote: »

I'm sure ZOS isn't doing it arbitrarily or for some capricious reason. There may be legal reasons relevant to Japan that don't occur elsewhere in the world. Perhaps it is best to wait for clarification from them before making assumptions.

This is exactly why I wanted to start this discussion to get a response from the developers. That single line in the patch notes carries way to much baggage to not be addressed with more context.

Yes, Nebs, I was suggesting that perhaps they might wait for clarification (i.e., an answer to your questions) before assuming anything. I probably should have worded it differently but that's what I meant.

ssewallb14_ESO

I wouldn't put it past a large corporation to attempt to monetize a country's weak consumer protection laws.

It would be nice to have some context though, so I don't jump to that conclusion.

Soarora

I don’t think we are in danger. Looking into it, Apex Legends, RAGE, and Fallout 76 have already done this. I’m not sure why though, saw some answers saying it’s by law, others saying it gets taxed differently…

ZOS_Kevin

Just following up on this. The note for Japan is due to us keeping in accordance with Japanese law regarding virtual currency. This only for Japan and will not impact other territories.

Granamere

LOL see what happens when they keep the servers down too long for patching. We all start reading the patch notes! Now I am beginning to think they do it on purpose.

centime

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just following up on this. The note for Japan is due to us keeping in accordance with Japanese law regarding virtual currency. This only for Japan and will not impact other territories.

Thank you for the clarification.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

That’s still rough for the Japanese players. I know I’ve taken breaks longer than 180 days.

peacenote

Hmm. What's interesting about this, to me, is that I wouldn't have thought twice about the TOS wording, which based on the grouping kind of seems to be focused on avoiding having to give refunds for content after six months... while the patch notes do make it seem way more literal, like they are starting to operationalize this clause in a way I wouldn't have anticipated.

I can't imagine that the profits from the repurchasing of Crowns by players who have returned and don't mind the rule would outpace the permanent exit of people would be upset and abandon the game if they took a break unawares and realized the loss of their investment, combined with people who will hesitate to buy Crowns at all if they are casual players... not to mention the time having to field customer support inquiries angry about it. It seems to me like it isn't in anyone's best interest for clients to be reminded how transient their investment is in the colorful Tamriel pixels.

So, it might be nice to get extra info. Perhaps this is in response to a local law in Japan that expanded a customer's right to pursue refunds in some way?

Cantankerous_Kuma

You are looking at the wrong section of Terms of Service. The section related to "virtual currencies" in Japan is as follows:

EXPIRING VIRTUAL CURRENCY FOR RESIDENTS OF JAPAN

IF YOU LIVE IN JAPAN the terms in this paragraph will apply. Virtual Currency shall be valid for ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY (180) DAYS from the date on which the acquisition of Virtual Currency is recorded on Your Account. Virtual Currency is used in order of its respective expiration date, where Virtual Currency with the earliest expiration date is used PRIOR TO any other Virtual Currency. If Purchased Virtual Currency and Complimentary Virtual Currency are issued concurrently, Purchased Virtual Currency is used prior to Complimentary Virtual Currency. Upon the expiration of the period for which Virtual Currency is valid, such Virtual Currency will expire and have no further value. Even if Your Account or Your access to or receipt, play or use of some or any Services is restricted or suspended in accordance with these Terms of Service, such restriction or suspension does not interrupt the period for which Virtual Currency is valid, and Virtual Currency will expire upon the expiration of such period. If Your Account or Your access to or use, receipt or play of some or any Services is terminated in accordance with these Terms of Service, all Virtual Currency held by You will expire immediately upon such termination. ZeniMax may limit the amount of Virtual Currency that You can purchase, hold, or use within a certain period.

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/terms-of-service

It's a hard expiration date of 180 days from the date the crowns are purchased/added to your account (logging in/not logging in, doesn't matter, they expire 180 days after purchase no matter what, the only exception is if you are banned, than they expire immediately upon the ban).

Several other Bethesda games and other companies' games have had similar provisions for a few years. It's most likely to do with avoiding some legal liabilities/responsibilities related to "virtual currencies" or "electronic payment instruments" in Japanese law (specifically changes made to Japanese law to more strictly regulate "virtual currencies" after the whole Mt. Vox thing happened). Unfortunately the definition of "virtual currency" in the amended law is extremely broad. ESO was the exception up until now for some reason, not sure why it is changing now (several years after the relevant law changes)

If they expire within 6 months they are not considered a "virtual currency" in the same manner as like bitcoin etc., which requires a bunch of legal hoops to be jumped through, including registration with the government, special bookkeeping etc.

Still annoying for those of us in Japan. Not really sure how to deal with it at the moment, since I usually sub for a year and then use the crowns throughout the year as stuff I want pops up/goes on sale. Giving the crowns from the sub an expiration kills a major benefit of subbing in the first place.

Can read more about some of the laws in question here if anyone is interested:
https://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp/en/laws/view/4395
https://innovationlaw.jp/en/japanese-vc-act-and-registration-overview/
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=b32af680-1772-4983-8022-a2826878bcd5

Lots more detailed sources in Japanese obviously:
https://www.clairlaw.jp/qa/it/game/virtual-money.html
https://nao-lawoffice.jp/venture-startup/platform/online-game1.php#toc_5

Interestingly, according to the site for DMM, the company that manages the "official" Japanese version of ESO "crowns do not expire":

※有料、無償を問わず、クラウンには有効期限はございません。

https://eso.dmm.com/store#item-service

Not sure if there is a difference (DMM has their own "virtual currency services, so they likely already do all the government requirements anyway) or if they just haven't updated their information yet.

Grizzbeorn

peacenote wrote: »

So, it might be nice to get extra info. Perhaps this is in response to a local law in Japan that expanded a customer's right to pursue refunds in some way?

You needed to read the whole thread. Kevin already responded.

centime

@Cantankerous_Kuma Thank you for the information. Sorry you have to deal with this.

Nebs

Cantankerous_Kuma wrote: »

You are looking at the wrong section of Terms of Service. The section related to "virtual currencies" in Japan is as follows:

Thanks for the additional context! That makes sense, though it's a shame crytpocurrencies are causing new and exciting issues for regular folk.

EdjeSwift

This has actually been in the Terms of Service before U40. I was looking into it a month or so ago and saw the Japan note and this is the note in it's entirety.

IF YOU LIVE IN JAPAN the terms in this paragraph will apply. Virtual Currency shall be valid for ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY (180) DAYS from the date on which the acquisition of Virtual Currency is recorded on Your Account. Virtual Currency is used in order of its respective expiration date, where Virtual Currency with the earliest expiration date is used PRIOR TO any other Virtual Currency. If Purchased Virtual Currency and Complimentary Virtual Currency are issued concurrently, Purchased Virtual Currency is used prior to Complimentary Virtual Currency. Upon the expiration of the period for which Virtual Currency is valid, such Virtual Currency will expire and have no further value. Even if Your Account or Your access to or receipt, play or use of some or any Services is restricted or suspended in accordance with these Terms of Service, such restriction or suspension does not interrupt the period for which Virtual Currency is valid, and Virtual Currency will expire upon the expiration of such period. If Your Account or Your access to or use, receipt or play of some or any Services is terminated in accordance with these Terms of Service, all Virtual Currency held by You will expire immediately upon such termination. ZeniMax may limit the amount of Virtual Currency that You can purchase, hold, or use within a certain period.

Which as you can see is more stringent than their normal policy on virtual currency. If you notice, it's 180 days beyond ACQUISITION, so you can't ESO+ store more than 6 months of crowns before they expire.

ssewallb14_ESO

That's interesting. You'd think the law would distinguish between currencies that can be traded for real world goods or currency and those that can't.

Nebs

Honestly, if this is designed to avoid regulations on digital currencies, I feel like players in those regions should have the option to buy crown store goods directly, or at least the big purchases like homes and the like, but I get how that might be a nightmare for the development team to manage.

If we see more rules like that one implemented, hopefully we'll see a larger shift to, imagine, just buy the thing we want with money rather than shuffle digital currencies which is all the rage.

belial5221_ESO

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

That's interesting. You'd think the law would distinguish between currencies that can be traded for real world goods or currency and those that can't.

Well,any game currency can be exchanged for real world money,how else do you thing gold sellers buy/sell gold/crowns.They need a separate sub for 8-10$ a month without the crowns.Would be useful for countries with those type laws,and might bring in more subbers for craftbag and DLCs.

Soarora

Cantankerous_Kuma wrote: »

ESO was the exception up until now for some reason, not sure why it is changing now (several years after the relevant law changes)

It might have to do with the situation regarding crown store gifting. Not directly, but I mean that ZOS might be working on catching up with legal things.

ssewallb14_ESO

belial5221_ESO wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

That's interesting. You'd think the law would distinguish between currencies that can be traded for real world goods or currency and those that can't.

Well,any game currency can be exchanged for real world money,how else do you thing gold sellers buy/sell gold/crowns.They need a separate sub for 8-10$ a month without the crowns.Would be useful for countries with those type laws,and might bring in more subbers for craftbag and DLCs.

Crowns can only be exchanged with a single buyer/seller (ZoS), which makes them effectively a token/voucher rather than a currency. If we count illicit exchanges then the law would apply to anything digital that could be physically traded in any way.