I'm not sure what to do. [resolved] [please close]

wilykcat

The code of conduct on the forums. It never really seemed to be updated. I am feeling discombobulated with some of the stuff being posted on the forums right now, as appears at the moment that nothing yet is being done. I've seen a lot of rule violations recently including the use of profanity and profanity bypasses, bashing, trolling, and baiting. I've previously reported a bunch of those things but the issue still isn't resolved. This is unexpected.

I do want to make a point that the moderation here does need drastic improvement as the forums can be a very toxic place at times. It appears that there are not enough moderators here to handle all the reports, to remove the bad content, and to help customers. The recent posts including the thread from 2019 is proof of that. It showed me how much these forums are lacking in moderation. Also maybe the tools they currently have could not be working properly or are out of date. I also now see that there is a lack of communication here on these forums between moderators and players specifically with DMS. It is very easy for me to lose patience when waiting for the issue to be resolved and a response.

The reasons why I submit multiple reports is not the intention of annoying the moderators, but, instead its more of that I'm not sure what to do, my anxiety kicks in, and I then get very upset. I have autism which makes social interactions a struggle. I also have a strong fear of changes and the unknown which is behind a lot of my behavior. When I am upset I will vent like anyone else and lots of stuff I do end up saying I don't mean it at all. I often have difficulty remembering things others have previously said to me unless if its a really bad thing. I often can't tell the difference of whats the truth and what is soon to be or already is false. The truth and other kind stuff is very hard for me to believe.

This part is specifically for the moderators: I need more information about what kind of content is ok to report or not and how much reports are my limit. I don't understand when its ok for threads to be closed or not along with similar actions. I notice recently some dirty things have been getting posted and usually there would be a snip or a thread lock, but now there is a stunning lack of it. Which is driving me crazy. I wish there were even more moderators to join these forums who are professionals, have very high standards, and who cannot be deceived.

This is for the community manager: Have the rules been updated? What are the list of changes that are already happening on the forums and which ones are soon to come? I am stressing every day about what is going to happen to the forums. I always think that the worse possible thing that could happen will happen (for me that is profanity and other inappropriate content are allowed, less moderation/moderators in all aspects, and totally big changes such as major alterations to the format, policies, and software).

I am very confused right now of why and when.

I notice I need a lot of improvements for my behavior and that will take me some time. I want to keep my standards but not get freaked out when something bad is posted on the forums. I also want to have friends here on the forums and not get myself banned for life again (even when its hard). I'm trying my best to not make the same mistakes again but I noticed I am still struggling with that. I have received lots of permanent account actions before on many many other online platforms which didn't help me improve. I then feel even worse after when it happened. I was hoping the ESO forums will do me a favor, that the moderators would finally trust me, and that others will see how good I am. And also I could finally undo years worth of my own previous mistakes. Unfortunately that I may never get the chance. I sense a the same account action may happen to me on ESO just like the one on the previous platforms (GW2, WoW, Diablo3, Roblox, and most social media). I am very worried right now.

I came to the forums not only to give out my suggestions, feedback, and ideas, but also to improve. The reasons why I am on these forums is to hopefully overcome my online struggles, become stronger, to learn how to read and understand others better, to write better, and that I am finally considered someone who is worthy of listening to.

What should I do and does anyone have any good advice? I'm specifically looking for moderator or community manager response in order to clarify some things as well. I am sorry.

Arcanasx

For context, here's what the OP is most likely reacting to...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/475595/what-are-the-lyrics-the-singers-of-death-sing-when-you-die/p1

wilykcat

That discussion is part of the cause of my reactions. I'm also talking a lot about previous incidents that happened on the forums as well. Those I wont specifically mention. To add in context.

rabidmyers

don't do anything, it's not even remotely near a big deal at all

NoticeMeArkay

Please finish your drinks, before you click on the link provided above me. Your keyboards will appreciate it.

Trier_Sero

You could actually express yourself on this forum back in 2019?!!! Pity I didn't catch those times!

YffresTrill

This really has nothing to do with ESO... if you want a discussion with someone at ZOS regarding moderation, contact CS or DM a mod.

Edit to add: Just don't expect them to say anything/much that will actually satisfy you.

wilykcat

It kind of does. I'm wrote an essay about the ESO forums ( changes, suggestions, feedback, concerns, thoughts, and questions) and also included somethings I mentioned about myself which are not too personal ( I did notice I kind of gotten a bit far with it in my writings) that relate. The other information is to help those who maybe don't understand to better understand. Its not really about the game, I know. I thought an essay would have more purpose posted as an original post on the forums and not so much as a DM.

ikzaa

The rules, anywhere, are not black and white, there are shades of gray.

If the moderators were 100% strict in the codes of conduct, you would only be allowed to say good morning, good afternoon and good night.

If the rule were applied to 100% any response would be considered baiting, context...

Carcamongus

Dealing with the difference between what should be (rules) and what is (their application) can be difficult for some. Perhaps the mods in 2019 didn't consider censoring part of the word as circumvention of the profanity filter, which brings us to another issue: the interpretation of rules. I happened to go into law, which means I got to discover the beautiful and ideal world of the rules, only to later find out many of those are seen more as guidelines or outright ignored. And then there are authorities who interpret the laws in ways one may find absurd. For someone who likes stability and predictability, this is quite frustrating.

Just like me in the real world, you don't have the power to enforce the rules, so one suggestion would be to avoid telling others to act like this or that. If you feel like a rule has been broken, report. You can't influence the outcome, though, and that is certainly frustrating. You should be able to ask the mods' interpretation of a rule and they'd be wrong to ignore it. Keep in mind that heavy-handed moderation would also kill the forum, as people would get tired of having their posts snipped or removed for every little thing they might have said.

No, your frustration won't disappear, because you're dealing with humans, not exact and predictable machines. But you can lower it, maybe make it more manageable.

EdjeSwift

ikzaa wrote: »

The rules, anywhere, are not black and white, there are shades of gray.

If the moderators were 100% strict in the codes of conduct, you would only be allowed to say good morning, good afternoon and good night.

If the rule were applied to 100% any response would be considered baiting, context...

This is absolutely correct, furthermore, there is one more thing to take into account when it comes to moderation of online communities, the human factor. There are guidelines in place for guidance, but ultimately there is a human being, or some sort of super advanced AI, reading these reports and using their judgement as to how the post plays within or outside of the rules provided.

Not all responses will be what people will want, but there is a reason the company chose these individuals to work with the community.

Ishtarknows

We need a disagree button.

Jazraena

Consider this: If you are uncertain whether you should report someone, and they get moderated, chances are they will be uncertain why they did get moderated.

Is this fair?

wilykcat

Responding to many other comments here:

1.

I'm trying to understand where this is coming from. Too little moderation = too much toxicity. Too much moderation = less toxicity and some players wont want that. There needs to be some kind of compromise.

The profanity filter is a keeper in my opinion, but, it also needs to be improve so it can automatically detect common uses of profanity bypasses for the typical bad words (such as the F one for example). That way the snipping is less manually done. A suggestion for programming the profanity filter should have some type of AI that will also help better detect the extra bad words that will sometimes slip through (uncaught bad words that are past and present tense variations). No bad words are good for any reason and none should be allowed.

Those who would get tired of the minor actions such as snips are those who often get caught due to constant breaking the rules at some extent. They most likely leave because they know that what they are doing is wrong or will find someplace else to post their bad content (where its allowed). Its not really understandable of why some don't prefer or want mostly clean online environments. If some players leave due to good moderation that is their choice (its not the company's fault even know they are easy to blame). It will most likely be a small handful who do so.

If moderation does get reduced. There are some bad results from that. Those bad results could be that more people will feel uncomfortable with the content others are posting, the moderators could lose their job, and the toxicity will only get worse from there. The only good things I came up with for less moderation is some people will be less stressed about rule enforcement.

The forums are not intended to be a clone of social media. Anything can be taken out of context depending on the person who is reading/viewing the content. Mistakes can still be made and no amount of moderation is perfect.

If moderation does increase.. The results could vary. The company will be able to hire more moderators in order to make the current moderator's job easier. More reports would be read, actions will be taken sooner, and more customer service is available. There would be way less bullying and toxicity. Also more people well anyone (individuals, professionals, and other businesses) will be able to view the forums to look up information about the game without any worry, concerns, and struggle. There are some other places out there that I've seen that have moderation that is way more strict than the current ESO forums and are still very successful.

In the end this really all comes down to good vs bad. How would it be if moderation was just right for everyone. Like all the generally bad stuff is blocked and all the good stuff is kept. There shouldn't be "all or nothing" logic for moderation.

2.

Jazraena wrote: »

Consider this: If you are uncertain whether you should report someone, and they get moderated, chances are they will be uncertain why they did get moderated.

Is this fair?

. I'm not really uncertain about reporting people in general. I know which stuff is clearly against the rules or not. In some cases there are times when some obvious rule violations happened and it took a while for that stuff to get removed or it wasn't removed at all (even after many years). That is what I don't get.

What causes confusion about the rules is when different moderators have different views, and when players say one thing and then another. For example: someone may say "this against the code of conduct" and someone else will then say " its totally fine, no one will get in trouble, its not against the rules".

3. It appears to be by what I'm guessing that there was some type of a very bad re-occurring incident on the forums before the later newer rules came out. Someone also did mention before that the rules/moderation were less strict back then on the forums (around and/or before 2019) and still there are some players who haven't gotten use to those previous changes yet.

Araneae6537

Would you be less stressed if you didn’t feel a need to report anything against the rules? I rarely report anything unless I see someone being attacked or disrespected. For instance, against the rules or no, I don’t see any need to report posts as in the thread referenced, which were meant as jokes, though not everyone’s taste in humor, but not aimed at anyone and harmless in my opinion.

I realize that different things stress different people, but so long as you’re following the rules yourself (and I don’t think that is in question), it isn’t your job but the moderators’ to worry about what others post (at least that’s what I’m interpreting as the source of stress from your post).

(Edited for clarity, hopefully.)

UntilValhalla13

It's a forum for a video game. As someone who also has autism, it's not worth stressing over. There's a lot more going on in the world that could use energy directed towards it.

spartaxoxo

Moderators are less active late night, so you may need to wait until normal business hours for something to be handled sometimes.

In addition, we had stricter moderation before and the community begged for it to be less restrictive. Nobody is perfect and part of the mods job is to not only enforce the rules, but to use reasonable discretion to facilitate productive and positive communication. So, that people feel free to share their opinions. Over reporting can also cause people who are pretty normal posters to be banned for life unfairly. Just because very minor mistakes that are so minor that not everyone would even agree it breaks the rules can add up.

As a general rule, mods err towards keeping threads peaceful and not attacking others. They aren't there to scare people to having the perfect communication skills of a professional PR agent. They are there to keep discourse respectful and mostly on topic. The one in question didn't use profanity to offend or hurt anyone (in fact it was censored), but to make people laugh. And it was received in that light by everyone in that thread. So, clearly they let it slide. A harmless joke that made everyone posting in the thread laugh is significantly more likely to be shown a little grace than someone attacking another.

Trejgon

Arcanasx wrote: »

For context, here's what the OP is most likely reacting to...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/475595/what-are-the-lyrics-the-singers-of-death-sing-when-you-die/p1

Which would be funny considering that the "profanity bypasses" are all 4 years old, and OP complains about modern state of ESO forums.

Modern state, which ironically enough is heavily moderated to the point where communities outside of official forums (reddit, various discord servers) have tendencies to not take anything happening in here seriously, because of "overbearing moderation silencing any criticism".

Modern state in which you quite often see multiple threads with "ZOS responded" mark ,where the mark only signifies, that moderator stepped in and cleaned up some stuff.

And this modern state, apparently is not moderated enough in OP's opinion. With a proof in form of a 4 year old thread.

As for the rules changing - there was a change in forum rules somewhen within last year, and within that timespan I noticed increasing moderating activity.

wilykcat

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Moderators are less active late night, so you may need to wait until normal business hours for something to be handled sometimes.

In addition, we had stricter moderation before and the community begged for it to be less restrictive. Nobody is perfect and part of the mods job is to not only enforce the rules, but to use reasonable discretion to facilitate productive and positive communication. So, that people feel free to share their opinions. Over reporting can also cause people who are pretty normal posters to be banned for life unfairly. Just because very minor mistakes that are so minor that not everyone would even agree it breaks the rules can add up.

As a general rule, mods err towards keeping threads peaceful and not attacking others. They aren't there to scare people to having the perfect communication skills of a professional PR agent. They are there to keep discourse respectful and mostly on topic. The one in question didn't use profanity to offend or hurt anyone (in fact it was censored), but to make people laugh. And it was received in that light by everyone in that thread. So, clearly they let it slide. A harmless joke that made everyone posting in the thread laugh is significantly more likely to be shown a little grace than someone attacking another.

It is very obvious that the censored out bad word is the bad F-bomb. Everyone knows what that word is because it was not totally censored.

I never use profanity in any case what so ever, and it never once made me laugh (That's why I don't find tasteless jokes funny). Just because others say "its fine to use profanity" that doesn't mean I should be using it. I know its wrong to use profanity. Lots of those bad words(profanity) have extremely inappropriate definitions and very harsh meanings behind them. I also say that profanity usage is overrated/annoying.

Its a complicated topic because everyone has different views of what are bad words(profanity) or not. Its better to be safe than sorry and to keep profanity off the forums no matter what the circumstances are.

Jazraena

Meanwhile, I'm not American. I don't understand the American attitude towards profanity, doubly so because I never heard anyone IRL use it more than Americans. It's completely opaque to me. I cannot compute what is okay and what is not okay in regards to it because it's so far removed from my own RL that it may well be a concept from Mars.

Sometimes, these two extremes clash. It's an odd thing wanting harsh moderation over.

EF321

Ishtarknows wrote: »

We need a disagree button.

No.

16BitForestCat

I also want to have friends here on the forums and not get myself banned for life again (even when its hard).

I sense a the same account action may happen to me on ESO just like the one on the previous platforms (GW2, WoW, Diablo3, Roblox, and most social media)

Constructive advice here? It's really not normal to be thrown out of so many places unless you're actually part of the problem. You might want to take a look at the common thread in all your suspensions/bannings/blockings/being run out of town/whatever else has been happening to you. By which I mean, take a look at yourself. You've already been disciplined for your behavior. It's time to think about what you can and should change with yourself so you're not constantly distressed at harmless salty language, dirty jokes, and people hugging...three actual things I recall you getting very upset over in the past here. It may just be that you need to learn to step away from the online device when you see something upsetting, and trust that if it's truly a violation and not just something you personally dislike, someone else will report it.

I find it's really helpful to close the tab that's getting on my nerves and go do something I like (or some busywork) for an hour or so. I've usually forgotten all about the tab and what was in it by the time I get back online. Or stay online and just watch funny videos you like for a while or something. But don't stay in the place that's bothering you. There's no cosmic reward for suffering. Just more pain.

I was hoping the ESO forums will do me a favor, that the moderators would finally trust me, and that others will see how good I am. And also I could finally undo years worth of my own previous mistakes. Unfortunately that I may never get the chance.

Some more constructive advice? People do not owe you chances, or even one chance. Everyone's got their own lives and their own inner struggles going on. This burden is not on anyone except you and whatever consenting mental health professionals/life coaches/mentors you may be working with. Take it from someone who has been through some heavy therapy and is still learning to conquer or ignore those inner demons that have their own hair triggers for what sets them off.

spartaxoxo

wilykcat wrote: »

Its a complicated topic because everyone has different views of what are bad words(profanity) or not. Its better to be safe than sorry and to keep profanity off the forums no matter what the circumstances are.

It is up to the mods to decide what is okay and what is not. Words can have different meanings depending on context. As a general rule, you can flag something once. And if the mods decide not to take action, then you know they determined that the post fell within their parameters of allowed.

Edit

BTW discussing moderation and calling people out is also against the rules.

wilykcat

The reason why I reviously recied a permanent penalty on those other online games was out of misunderstandings. On GW2 I remember I was kicked off for saying something about my identity in the chat after a player asked me a very personal question, and then cursed at me over and over. I basically summarized what I said about myself before in GW2 thats similar to what I said here.

The behavior is that also when ever someone is bullying me in some way, trolling, cursing in general, or even is disagreeing with me, I get the thoughts and feelings that I don't belong, so I decide get myself banned for life. Thinking it will make the games and the forums better off without me, but in reality it doesn't do anything at all and only makes the problem worse. After that happens to me in those games/forums I end up being upset about it even after years and regretting the mistakes I did with/without intention.

I guess by whats being said, moderators aren't perfect either and they also make mistakes too like everyone else. Mistakes and misunderstandings can sometimes happen when reading reports, chat logs, forum posts, and such. Some rule violations slip through and then those same exact rule violations get blocked.

wilykcat

For those who reported me for explain myself and how I see things. Turns out (based on the feedback here) I am the cause of some of my problems. I may or may not deserve what ever is going to happen next. I learned that everyone here has different opinions, beliefs, and tastes in a variety of subjects. Some people disagree with anything I say and then turn it against me. Everywhere I go its always the same no matter what.

Based on what others say it turns out profanity isnt against the rules on the ESO forums? As a result, the ESO forums are not that well moderated and professional like how I expected an official online forum to be. I am disappointed, but, so far thank you all for your feedback. I know this is a difficult topic to discuss and you all did your best to respond.

Wolfkeks

You can technically report as much as you want. As far as I know there is no limit. But in the end the moderator who reviews your report has the final say in whether this is report will end up in moderation or not.

Different moderators can have different views on that (as they are humans too). There can also be different understandings of what a poster might have meant. Maybe they joked or used sarcasm and the person who reported them didn't understand that (because for example the person is not a native speaker). That can lead to different moderation.

For the 4-old thread I don't think they will moderate that. It's 4 years old and has no relevance whatsoever so they will probably just close it. Especially if someone from ZOS joined in. If they decided it didn't need moderation then for whatever reason they will probably not moderate it now.

Generally, if you have questions about things you can always shoot a dm to the moderators or Kevin. Or even ask support if they don't answer.

But if it stresses you to the point you get anxiety you either just let these things go or you may need to step back from the forums. This is not meant to be mean, but if it is affecting your mental health in a negative way you need to concentrate on that more than on forum moderation. Been there too.

Another tipp: If you know someone is writing things that annoy you in general you can put them on your ignore list. That might not help with the moderation issue but at least you don't have to see what they are writing.

(Hope this helped!)

ElvenOverlord

Trier_Sero wrote: »

You could actually express yourself on this forum back in 2019?!!! Pity I didn't catch those times!

Yeah I came to the game in 2019 but only joined the forums around a year later. I missed out to lol

Jazraena

I have no idea if you are the cause, honestly. I don't know you well enough.

But yes, people are different, as are their opinions. Something a prior poster said is really something worth remembering, IMHO: Everyone's got their own lives and their own inner struggles going on.

Most people are way too busy with themselves to overly worry about the day to day of other people they aren't good friends with or that don't push themselves into their attention, and even then, it's typically temporary.

Behaviour of strangers on forums is really not something anyone should concern themselves with too much. And most don't, and likely forget even those they argued with quickly unless it becomes frequent repetition.

So don't think you have to fit in or please anyone.

Katheriah

Arcanasx wrote: »

For context, here's what the OP is most likely reacting to...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/475595/what-are-the-lyrics-the-singers-of-death-sing-when-you-die/p1

This topic is hilarious, thank you so much for sharing. I'd love to see more interaction between players and ZOS that's a bit less serious.

Snamyap

Jazraena wrote: »

Meanwhile, I'm not American. I don't understand the American attitude towards profanity, doubly so because I never heard anyone IRL use it more than Americans. It's completely opaque to me. I cannot compute what is okay and what is not okay in regards to it because it's so far removed from my own RL that it may well be a concept from Mars.

Sometimes, these two extremes clash. It's an odd thing wanting harsh moderation over.

Being Dutch, which are apparently renown for being frank and direct, the moderation here annoys the hell out of me. This game is 18+, surely we can discuss the game as aldults. You can't even call a spade a spade here.
It's one of the reasons I stopped playing.

spartaxoxo

Snamyap wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Meanwhile, I'm not American. I don't understand the American attitude towards profanity, doubly so because I never heard anyone IRL use it more than Americans. It's completely opaque to me. I cannot compute what is okay and what is not okay in regards to it because it's so far removed from my own RL that it may well be a concept from Mars.

Sometimes, these two extremes clash. It's an odd thing wanting harsh moderation over.

Being Dutch, which are apparently renown for being frank and direct, the moderation here annoys the hell out of me. This game is 18+, surely we can discuss the game as aldults. You can't even call a spade a spade here.
It's one of the reasons I stopped playing.

The forums have a lower age rating than the game