CRIT IS NOT ENOUGH for Monolith of Storms

acastanza_ESO

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@Tannus15 I find it's better to compare to Impale and Mages Fury as they're both instant ranged executes that have flat values within execute range instead of scaling based on missing health. The instant melee executes are typically a bit stronger.

Comparing tooltips from base characters, no passives or bonuses:

Impale: Throw a magic blade with lethal precision to strike an enemy, dealing 1161 Magic Damage. Deals 330% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.

Mages Fury: Call down lightning to strike an enemy, dealing 870 Shock Damage. If the enemy falls to or below 20% Health within 4 seconds of being struck, an explosion deals an additional 3195 Shock Damage to them and 695 Shock Damage to other enemies nearby.

Neither morph of Mages Fury gives bonus damage, just sustain vs aoe.

NB: 1161 x 4.3 = 4992 from 25% health
Sorc: 870 + 3195 = 4065 from 20% health

4992 / 4065 = 1.228... so 1.23

Impale has a tooltip worth 23% more than Mages Fury.

• NBs kit gives easy Major Berserk for 10% damage done, ours is from the expensive Atro synergy.
• NBs kit gives easy 300 or 400 base weapon damage, we get 2% per slotted, nowhere near as valuable and NBs can slot Fighters guild skills for 3% per slotted or are already getting 2% crit chance per slotted Assassination skill or 3% healing per slotted Siphoning skill.
• NBs kit guarantees Minor Vulnerability, we have to rely on shock proc chance or again.. wait for Charged Atro which is notobly worse and easy to avoid vs Greater Atro.
• Both NB and Sorc get decent Minor Berserk uptime easily. Null comparison.
• NBs kit gives an additional 20% damage dealt for 8s via cheap af Incap, nothing comparable for Sorc.
• NBs kit gives 3k pen flanking, nothing comparable for Sorc.. maybe the 5% Shock damage passive.
• NBs kit gives 10% crit damage which can stack with Minor Forces 10%, Sorc gets Minor Force via Dark Deal (not for Mag Sorc).
• NBs kit gives 8% max mag passively, Sorcs get 8% max mag for slotting a tank skill that buffs block mitigation for a shielding class where shields don't get block mitigation, Minor Resolve is useless with Resolving Vigor meta and Minor Protection NB can get from Undo.
• NBs kit gives Major Savagery passively from slotting Shadowy Disguise, Sorcs have to waste a skill slot for Camo Hunter or get shoe horned into mag crit/power potions.
• NBs kit gives 1k mag/stam for killing an enemy passively, Sorc has to specifically use Endless Fury to get 5k mag back, a lot, but less versatile and Mages Wrath is the better morph.

Only thing Sorc has over NB is in class Major Sorcery/Brutality on a self buff, NB has it, but they need to get in melee range, can just use Rally, Degen or Pots.
And... Amplitude, a passive that literally gets worse the closer you get to execute. More specifically it gives 2-1% damage done for Mages Fury in execute.

TLDR: So not only is the base tooltip 23% stronger for Impale despite both skills being a ranged magicka instant execute, NB gets much higher damage bonuses that will result in Impale dealing anywhere from 50-100% more damage if I were to guess. 100% is very likely due to the fact that a Mag Sorc is probably going to be using Max Mag sets to get reasonable defence which also scales much worse than a typical setup... Cherry on the cake, it scales from 25% health instead of 20% health.

Only plus sides for Sorc is they can cast Fury early to get some delayed execute burst for a combo and some decent aoe. Whatever.

But seriously @ZOS_Kevin we need a direct response from the combat team on why the Sorc toolkit is allowed to be so completely sub-par when directly compared point-for-point to the Nightblade toolkit. And that's completely independent from the pressure they need to address the objective inferiority of the class armor set.

Tannus15

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@Tannus15 I find it's better to compare to Impale and Mages Fury as they're both instant ranged executes that have flat values within execute range instead of scaling based on missing health. The instant melee executes are typically a bit stronger.

Comparing tooltips from base characters, no passives or bonuses:

Impale: Throw a magic blade with lethal precision to strike an enemy, dealing 1161 Magic Damage. Deals 330% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.

Mages Fury: Call down lightning to strike an enemy, dealing 870 Shock Damage. If the enemy falls to or below 20% Health within 4 seconds of being struck, an explosion deals an additional 3195 Shock Damage to them and 695 Shock Damage to other enemies nearby.

Neither morph of Mages Fury gives bonus damage, just sustain vs aoe.

NB: 1161 x 4.3 = 4992 from 25% health
Sorc: 870 + 3195 = 4065 from 20% health

4992 / 4065 = 1.228... so 1.23

Impale has a tooltip worth 23% more than Mages Fury.

• NBs kit gives easy Major Berserk for 10% damage done, ours is from the expensive Atro synergy.
• NBs kit gives easy 300 or 400 base weapon damage, we get 2% per slotted, nowhere near as valuable and NBs can slot Fighters guild skills for 3% per slotted or are already getting 2% crit chance per slotted Assassination skill or 3% healing per slotted Siphoning skill.
• NBs kit guarantees Minor Vulnerability, we have to rely on shock proc chance or again.. wait for Charged Atro which is notobly worse and easy to avoid vs Greater Atro.
• Both NB and Sorc get decent Minor Berserk uptime easily. Null comparison.
• NBs kit gives an additional 20% damage dealt for 8s via cheap af Incap, nothing comparable for Sorc.
• NBs kit gives 3k pen flanking, nothing comparable for Sorc.. maybe the 5% Shock damage passive.
• NBs kit gives 10% crit damage which can stack with Minor Forces 10%, Sorc gets Minor Force via Dark Deal (not for Mag Sorc).
• NBs kit gives 8% max mag passively, Sorcs get 8% max mag for slotting a tank skill that buffs block mitigation for a shielding class where shields don't get block mitigation, Minor Resolve is useless with Resolving Vigor meta and Minor Protection NB can get from Undo.
• NBs kit gives Major Savagery passively from slotting Shadowy Disguise, Sorcs have to waste a skill slot for Camo Hunter or get shoe horned into mag crit/power potions.
• NBs kit gives 1k mag/stam for killing an enemy passively, Sorc has to specifically use Endless Fury to get 5k mag back, a lot, but less versatile and Mages Wrath is the better morph.

Only thing Sorc has over NB is in class Major Sorcery/Brutality on a self buff, NB has it, but they need to get in melee range, can just use Rally, Degen or Pots.
And... Amplitude, a passive that literally gets worse the closer you get to execute. More specifically it gives 2-1% damage done for Mages Fury in execute.

TLDR: So not only is the base tooltip 23% stronger for Impale despite both skills being a ranged magicka instant execute, NB gets much higher damage bonuses that will result in Impale dealing anywhere from 50-100% more damage if I were to guess. 100% is very likely due to the fact that a Mag Sorc is probably going to be using Max Mag sets to get reasonable defence which also scales much worse than a typical setup... Cherry on the cake, it scales from 25% health instead of 20% health.

Only plus sides for Sorc is they can cast Fury early to get some delayed execute burst for a combo and some decent aoe. Whatever.

But seriously @ZOS_Kevin we need a direct response from the combat team on why the Sorc toolkit is allowed to be so completely sub-par when directly compared point-for-point to the Nightblade toolkit. And that's completely independent from the pressure they need to address the objective inferiority of the class armor set.

They did address this. Not every class has to be good or something like that if I remember.

I get the sentiment though. Sorc shouldn’t have all the same things as nightblade, otherwise why bother, just run a nightblade.

I feel it’s better to steer away from direct class comparisons and just focus on the glaring issues with mag sorc.

The lack of options, the poor cleave, the weak execute, missing spammables, the weak healing, cast time skills, lack of named buffs, lack of debuffs. You know, stuff like that.

MashmalloMan

Tannus15 wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@Tannus15 I find it's better to compare to Impale and Mages Fury as they're both instant ranged executes that have flat values within execute range instead of scaling based on missing health. The instant melee executes are typically a bit stronger.

Comparing tooltips from base characters, no passives or bonuses:

Impale: Throw a magic blade with lethal precision to strike an enemy, dealing 1161 Magic Damage. Deals 330% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.

Mages Fury: Call down lightning to strike an enemy, dealing 870 Shock Damage. If the enemy falls to or below 20% Health within 4 seconds of being struck, an explosion deals an additional 3195 Shock Damage to them and 695 Shock Damage to other enemies nearby.

Neither morph of Mages Fury gives bonus damage, just sustain vs aoe.

NB: 1161 x 4.3 = 4992 from 25% health
Sorc: 870 + 3195 = 4065 from 20% health

4992 / 4065 = 1.228... so 1.23

Impale has a tooltip worth 23% more than Mages Fury.

• NBs kit gives easy Major Berserk for 10% damage done, ours is from the expensive Atro synergy.
• NBs kit gives easy 300 or 400 base weapon damage, we get 2% per slotted, nowhere near as valuable and NBs can slot Fighters guild skills for 3% per slotted or are already getting 2% crit chance per slotted Assassination skill or 3% healing per slotted Siphoning skill.
• NBs kit guarantees Minor Vulnerability, we have to rely on shock proc chance or again.. wait for Charged Atro which is notobly worse and easy to avoid vs Greater Atro.
• Both NB and Sorc get decent Minor Berserk uptime easily. Null comparison.
• NBs kit gives an additional 20% damage dealt for 8s via cheap af Incap, nothing comparable for Sorc.
• NBs kit gives 3k pen flanking, nothing comparable for Sorc.. maybe the 5% Shock damage passive.
• NBs kit gives 10% crit damage which can stack with Minor Forces 10%, Sorc gets Minor Force via Dark Deal (not for Mag Sorc).
• NBs kit gives 8% max mag passively, Sorcs get 8% max mag for slotting a tank skill that buffs block mitigation for a shielding class where shields don't get block mitigation, Minor Resolve is useless with Resolving Vigor meta and Minor Protection NB can get from Undo.
• NBs kit gives Major Savagery passively from slotting Shadowy Disguise, Sorcs have to waste a skill slot for Camo Hunter or get shoe horned into mag crit/power potions.
• NBs kit gives 1k mag/stam for killing an enemy passively, Sorc has to specifically use Endless Fury to get 5k mag back, a lot, but less versatile and Mages Wrath is the better morph.

Only thing Sorc has over NB is in class Major Sorcery/Brutality on a self buff, NB has it, but they need to get in melee range, can just use Rally, Degen or Pots.
And... Amplitude, a passive that literally gets worse the closer you get to execute. More specifically it gives 2-1% damage done for Mages Fury in execute.

TLDR: So not only is the base tooltip 23% stronger for Impale despite both skills being a ranged magicka instant execute, NB gets much higher damage bonuses that will result in Impale dealing anywhere from 50-100% more damage if I were to guess. 100% is very likely due to the fact that a Mag Sorc is probably going to be using Max Mag sets to get reasonable defence which also scales much worse than a typical setup... Cherry on the cake, it scales from 25% health instead of 20% health.

Only plus sides for Sorc is they can cast Fury early to get some delayed execute burst for a combo and some decent aoe. Whatever.

But seriously @ZOS_Kevin we need a direct response from the combat team on why the Sorc toolkit is allowed to be so completely sub-par when directly compared point-for-point to the Nightblade toolkit. And that's completely independent from the pressure they need to address the objective inferiority of the class armor set.

They did address this. Not every class has to be good or something like that if I remember.

I get the sentiment though. Sorc shouldn’t have all the same things as nightblade, otherwise why bother, just run a nightblade.

I feel it’s better to steer away from direct class comparisons and just focus on the glaring issues with mag sorc.

The lack of options, the poor cleave, the weak execute, missing spammables, the weak healing, cast time skills, lack of named buffs, lack of debuffs. You know, stuff like that.

Totally. The main point was our execute is already worse than the closest parallel you can find in the game on NBs Impale, but the 23% tooltip bonus they get doesn't paint the entire picture. It's leagues behind even if you did buff it by 23% because of Sorc's kit vs NB's currently.

I wouldn't care as much about the 23% Impale differencial if Mag Sorc had 5% more execute range, major berserk, unnamed 10% crit dmg, unnamed 2% crit chance, minor vulnerability, 3k pen, 8% passive mag, major prophecy/savagery, +300 base spell damage, forgot to mention how Vampirism is basically a NB sub class for another free +300 base spell damage, couple that all together with stacking minor/major expedition in class for better speed, vamp tele and/or shadow image for evasion and better survivability via an actual burst heal.

Not to mention, passive Major Resolve for NB vs Sorc's who have historically felt the need to waste a monster set just to use Chudan for the same effect. NB in turn can add a set for even more offense or defense in that space.

It would be doing a disservice to not look at the whole picture.

Way off topic, but I get your point. If at minimum Mages Fury at least scaled properly with a similar 20% buff and then other areas of the Sorc kit was improved like healing and named buff/debuff access, the skill and therefore the whole Storm Calling line may shine again.

..But until that happens, I can't picture a set like Monolith ever being decent if it requires you to drop a pet to run subpar skills. The classes needed massive reworks before they began pumping out class sets.

WrathOfInnos

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@Tannus15 I find it's better to compare to Impale and Mages Fury as they're both instant ranged executes that have flat values within execute range instead of scaling based on missing health. The instant melee executes are typically a bit stronger.

Comparing tooltips from base characters, no passives or bonuses:

Impale: Throw a magic blade with lethal precision to strike an enemy, dealing 1161 Magic Damage. Deals 330% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.

Mages Fury: Call down lightning to strike an enemy, dealing 870 Shock Damage. If the enemy falls to or below 20% Health within 4 seconds of being struck, an explosion deals an additional 3195 Shock Damage to them and 695 Shock Damage to other enemies nearby.

Neither morph of Mages Fury gives bonus damage, just sustain vs aoe.

NB: 1161 x 4.3 = 4992 from 25% health
Sorc: 870 + 3195 = 4065 from 20% health

4992 / 4065 = 1.228... so 1.23

Impale has a tooltip worth 23% more than Mages Fury.

• NBs kit gives easy Major Berserk for 10% damage done, ours is from the expensive Atro synergy.
• NBs kit gives easy 300 or 400 base weapon damage, we get 2% per slotted, nowhere near as valuable and NBs can slot Fighters guild skills for 3% per slotted or are already getting 2% crit chance per slotted Assassination skill or 3% healing per slotted Siphoning skill.
• NBs kit guarantees Minor Vulnerability, we have to rely on shock proc chance or again.. wait for Charged Atro which is notobly worse and easy to avoid vs Greater Atro.
• Both NB and Sorc get decent Minor Berserk uptime easily. Null comparison.
• NBs kit gives an additional 20% damage dealt for 8s via cheap af Incap, nothing comparable for Sorc.
• NBs kit gives 3k pen flanking, nothing comparable for Sorc.. maybe the 5% Shock damage passive.
• NBs kit gives 10% crit damage which can stack with Minor Forces 10%, Sorc gets Minor Force via Dark Deal (not for Mag Sorc).
• NBs kit gives 8% max mag passively, Sorcs get 8% max mag for slotting a tank skill that buffs block mitigation for a shielding class where shields don't get block mitigation, Minor Resolve is useless with Resolving Vigor meta and Minor Protection NB can get from Undo.
• NBs kit gives Major Savagery passively from slotting Shadowy Disguise, Sorcs have to waste a skill slot for Camo Hunter or get shoe horned into mag crit/power potions.
• NBs kit gives 1k mag/stam for killing an enemy passively, Sorc has to specifically use Endless Fury to get 5k mag back, a lot, but less versatile and Mages Wrath is the better morph.

Only thing Sorc has over NB is in class Major Sorcery/Brutality on a self buff, NB has it, but they need to get in melee range, can just use Rally, Degen or Pots.
And... Amplitude, a passive that literally gets worse the closer you get to execute. More specifically it gives 2-1% damage done for Mages Fury in execute.

TLDR: So not only is the base tooltip 23% stronger for Impale despite both skills being a ranged magicka instant execute, NB gets much higher damage bonuses that will result in Impale dealing anywhere from 50-100% more damage if I were to guess. 100% is very likely due to the fact that a Mag Sorc is probably going to be using Max Mag sets to get reasonable defence which also scales much worse than a typical setup... Cherry on the cake, it scales from 25% health instead of 20% health.

Only plus sides for Sorc is they can cast Fury early to get some delayed execute burst for a combo and some decent aoe. Whatever.

Great point. I’d like to request buffing the base damage of Mages Wrath and leaving the additional execute damage untouched.

Using your numbers above, the non-execute damage could be doubled from 870 to 1740. This would make Mages Wrath deal 80% of a standard single target ranged spammable (like Swallow Soul or Ele Weapon). That is still much less than Silver Shards, and Mages Wrath only deals splash damage if the target is below 20% health.

Comparing again, we’d see:

NB: 1161 x 4.3 = 4992 from 25% health
Current Sorc: 870 + 3195 = 4065 from 20% health
Proposed Sorc: 1740 + 3195 = 4935 from 20% health

MashmalloMan

What are the chances tomorrows PTS update does anything more to Monolith than the crit chance fix?

Taking bets. I'm betting they fix the crit and make at least 1 extra adjustment... however it will be negligible at best and fix none of the main concerns:

1. Tick on 1s instead of 2s.
2. Monoliths deal aoe damage instead of only links.
3. Can stack more than 1 set in a group.
4. Proc conditions improved from 1st/5th tick.
5. Deal decent dps in comparison to universal proc sets.

All of those changes are at minimum required in my opinion, however they still have bigger fish to fry:

1. PVE Sorcs don't want to drop a pet for Fury/Lightning Splash.
2. PVP Sorcs don't expect to rely on random monolith procs players can walk out of, especially if the minimum changes above aren't tackled.
3. Sorcs in general don't have great aoe or dot damage so the set goes against what they stand for, we forgo those CP bonuses for single target, direct, crit damage, off balance, or weapon/spell damage.
4. Sorcs afinity for Shock staves was finally introduced last patch by making it buff channel/direct and then they add this which doesn't work with it. Screams a lack of vision. 1 hand isn't speaking to the other.

Tannus15

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What are the chances tomorrows PTS update does anything more to Monolith than the crit chance fix?

Taking bets. I'm betting they fix the crit and make at least 1 extra adjustment... however it will be negligible at best and fix none of the main concerns:

1. Tick on 1s instead of 2s.
2. Monoliths deal aoe damage instead of only links.
3. Can stack more than 1 set in a group.
4. Proc conditions improved from 1st/5th tick.
5. Deal decent dps in comparison to universal proc sets.

All of those changes are at minimum required in my opinion, however they still have bigger fish to fry:

1. PVE Sorcs don't want to drop a pet for Fury/Lightning Splash.
2. PVP Sorcs don't expect to rely on random monolith procs players can walk out of, especially if the minimum changes above aren't tackled.
3. Sorcs in general don't have great aoe or dot damage so the set goes against what they stand for, we forgo those CP bonuses for single target, direct, crit damage, off balance, or weapon/spell damage.
4. Sorcs afinity for Shock staves was finally introduced last patch by making it buff channel/direct and then they add this which doesn't work with it. Screams a lack of vision. 1 hand isn't speaking to the other.

the sad thing is that the best thing that can happen is a massive overhaul of the set, reworking it from the ground up. however that means that on the last change for the PTS we find out what the sorc set is and it's too late for any meaningful feedback or testing for it.
So we have to cross our fingers and hope they just get it right first try.
The same people who make monolith of storms and let it sit there for 4 weeks apparently happy with it.

No, I reckon you're right. we'll get a fix for the crit issue and probably something to make it proc easier. every 3rd tick is my guess so that hurricane is enough to let the set work.
then they'll call it done and we'll point out that it's still terrible and the damage is too weak to bother running it, but they won't care because their spreadsheet will tell them that the 28m range on the monoliths somehow makes up for it...

robpr

Maybe this set tries to incentivise using Overload as ult instead of Atro? But that would be not practical in any way

RaptorRodeoGod

robpr wrote: »

Maybe this set tries to incentivise using Overload as ult instead of Atro? But that would be not practical in any way

It'd either have to spike ultimate generation, or make Overload consume, like, no ultimate in order to get it to proc consistently

Tannus15

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Maybe this set tries to incentivise using Overload as ult instead of Atro? But that would be not practical in any way

It'd either have to spike ultimate generation, or make Overload consume, like, no ultimate in order to get it to proc consistently

yeah, for overload to work the set would need to be burst damage. the way the procs work you need to have a constant amount of storm calling skills ticking so you can replace monoliths quickly when they expire

Skullstachio

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

here's another problem with your garbage AOE set



can you spot it?

It spawned all the monoliths in the same spot.

it's SO BAD it's NOT FUNCTIONAL.

Noticed this too. It's beyond incomprehensible why this set is designed this way.

I'm convinced whoever conceived the set design has never played Sorc and thinks Mages Fury is a spammable because thats legitimately the only way this set could work the way they expect it to with the massive 28m links.

Even if we did want to use it, 99% of the time it's going to proc on a random enemy from an aoe skill. Streak.. Lightning Splash.. Lightning Form..

Whats even sadder and downright disappointing, who in the right mind calls a set "Monolith" of storms when it doesn't even look like a flippin Monolith, looks more like a lazy daedric lightningrod pulled from the arena in the deadlands with that mantikora world boss.

May as well just call it the "Lightningrod of Storms" at this point.
When I saw the name, I thought the actual monoliths would look akin to the mini monoliths used against the vestige in the battle against archdruid devyric, but more atronachy and brimming with electricity.

One has to ask: how out of touch are the combat team really with their creations, much less with the players providing honest toiled feedback necessary to bring them up to parity...)

SkaraMinoc

What's the point in doing the Endless Archive if the rewards are this bad?

Turtle_Bot

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

What's the point in doing the Endless Archive if the rewards are this bad?

There is none, at least from a sorcs perspective.

Panderbander

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

What's the point in doing the Endless Archive if the rewards are this bad?

If you play as a Sorc, Warden, Templar, Arcanist, or Werewolf there is next to nothing worth entering this place for.