Undeserved Soulcleaver(Nightblade set) change

Prionyx

I would like to talk about a change that soulcleaver received in second week of PTS(9.2.1 patch).
According to 9.2.0 patch notes it was stated that siphoning ultimates not gaining bonuses from soulcleaver was an issue:

Soulcleaver
Siphoning Ultimate and its morphs do not currently gain the correct bonuses from Soulcleaver.

However, in 9.2.1 patch notes there is a this change:

Soul Cleaver: Updated this set’s tooltip to mention that the Siphoning Ultimate does not gain the damage or healing increase since you spend your Ultimate upon activation, putting you under its requirement of 20 Ultimate to gain the set’s effects.

Why shouldn't soulcleaver affect ultimates? "since you spend your ultimate upon activation, putting you under it's requierement of 20 ultimatee to gain the set's effect" - there are other sets that work in a simmilar way, for example if you cast siphoning ultimate(or any ultimate) with balorgh equipped the ultimate WILL receive balorgh's buff! It was stated that this is an issue that siphoning ultimates do not gain "correct bonuses from soulcleaver", so I thought there will be a patch next week that will fix the problem that siphoning ultimates don't gain any damage and healing buff from soulcleaver, but instead we have a change that makes this set allmost useless . It makes no sence for soulcleaver to not affect ultimates both balance wise(because this set is not overpowered this way, it forces you to use different skills that you would never use without it, like swallow soul, but makes them a good alterantive to a regular builds, which is just perfect!) and logic wise(why wouldn't soulcleaver affect ultimates if balorgh does? Not to mention that balorgh's requierement is to SPEND your ultimate points, but it still affect your ultimate, but soulcleaver's requierement is just having 20+ ultimate points, which you obisuously have while casting your siphoning ultimate)

Among all of the other class sets soulcleaver was the most unique and interesting one since if you decide to wear it will absolutely change your nightblade's playstyle, adding soo much of variativity to this class since all of the nightblaes use one the same build structure unline DKs or wardens whos playstyle can be completely different but equially good depending on the build(even magicka and stamina nightblades are barely different from each other...). Magicka warden feels soo much different from stamina warden but if you see a nightblade it's hard to tell if it's magicka or a stamina one(also about stamina nigthblades, if soulcleaver will not affect ultimates then stamina nigtblades are absolutely left behind since they allmost don't benefit from it). There is a one change that can turn another useless set that nobody is going to use into a verry interesting set that has a unique mechanic and gives nightblades a completely new playstyle while keeping the current one at the same time. This change is letting soulcleaver to affect ultimate.

P s. Answer to everyone who say that it was not intended for soulcleaver to affect ultimates because if you cast your ultimate it no longer meets set's requirements. Soulcleaver reduce ultimate's cost but not damage. Both in first and second week of pts. So "you spend your ultimate, that's why set isn't working" is not an excuse.

Navagod

Agree with Prionyx. Make nightblade great again!

Vaqual

If the change can be made without breaking the rest of the set I guess it's a fair point, but personally I think the 30 % damage on the spammable is significantly more important than a bit of extra oomph on the ult (will be a dps loss as you gimp your spammable for a long time, bonus on ult should be compensated within very few casts of swallow soul).

I get the idea, but to say that will be playstyle defining only if the ult benefits sounds a bit exaggerated. It can be used for bombing then, that's it. The set is quite OK without this, though. On a single target it will not be better than incap, even with the change.

Panderbander

A short persistent effect could be applied on using an ultimate to continue buffing Siphoning abilities (including the Siphoning ultimate) for a couple seconds afterward at the bonus level it was prior to using the ultimate.

YandereGirlfriend

This set went from interesting to deconstruction fodder overnight with this change.

Prionyx

Vaqual wrote: »

If the change can be made without breaking the rest of the set I guess it's a fair point, but personally I think the 30 % damage on the spammable is significantly more important than a bit of extra oomph on the ult (will be a dps loss as you gimp your spammable for a long time, bonus on ult should be compensated within very few casts of swallow soul).

I get the idea, but to say that will be playstyle defining only if the ult benefits sounds a bit exaggerated. It can be used for bombing then, that's it. The set is quite OK without this, though. On a single target it will not be better than incap, even with the change.

34% damage on the ultimate is singifically more important since it's not a PvE set for sure, I doubt a lot of people would like to use in in PvE. Meanwhile in PvP burst damage is everything for a nightblade(and currently nightblade have a low burst potential unlike stam warden or acuity mag DK). Changing your concealed weapon for swallow soul means you can also change your axes to lighting staff(or maybe even bow?) and play as semi-ranged nightblade(and since you don't slot concealed you have to slot hysteria), of course you change your incapacitatating strike to soul tether with this set so yes, it will create a new nightblade playstyle if it will affect ultimate, but will not replace the old one since it will be good still, better in some scenarios and worse in another.

acastanza_ESO

Prionyx wrote: »

and currently nightblade have a low burst potential unlike stam warden or acuity mag DK

You're being sarcastic here, right?

Panderbander

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

and currently nightblade have a low burst potential unlike stam warden or acuity mag DK

You're being sarcastic here, right?

I've certainly never been two tapped by a 14k incap followed by a 22k bow proc. Nope, never! Buff NB burst!

...

/s

Prionyx

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

and currently nightblade have a low burst potential unlike stam warden or acuity mag DK

You're being sarcastic here, right?

Of course I'm not, while wardens and DKs are able to hit 30K+ combos nightablades don't even have any burst skills... All you can do is use your incap and pray that your enemy will be unexperienced enough to not roll dodge your bow proc(and most of the experienced players dodge is easily), while warden's burst will still deal more damage and is harder to aviod since you can't dodge it. If you get hit by warden's DB and shalks at like 65% of health and had no crowd control immunity you will die no metter what(unless you have a tanky build), if you get hit by nightblade's incap you just break free and roll dodge his bow proc... It's allmost impossible to outplay good DK, warden, templar or sorc as nightblade.

To be clear you can just compare what warden can do if he got lucky with one gcd: dizzying swing/wrecking blow ~7k damage, shalks ~11k damage, DB ~11k damage, execute(while you are stunned after DB) = rest of your health. Dizzying swing and DB comes at one gcd because it has 0.8 cast time and gcd is 1 second, so you can use your DB right after 0.2 second after you hit someone with dizzying swing.

What NB can do if he got lucky with one gcd: incap ~14k damage, concealed ~8k damage. If he tries to use bow proc instead of concealed it will be dodged since it's a projectail. NBs have excelent sustain and literally best mobility among other classes but NB's damage is low comparing to other classes

grzes848909

bruh

Vaqual

I will try formulate my comment with a bit more detail:

1. Soul Shred has less than twice the tooltip of Swallow Soul (I will now abbreviate both with SS for simplicity)(hehe jk). By forgoing ult usage (reminder: you lose the damage buff if you ult) you compensate for the extra damage on the ult within less than 2 casts, and you compensate the entire ult + bonus within 8 casts of Swallow Soul. If you value that kind of damage (call it DPS or pressure) then ulting becomes already optional. These are ballpark values, so don't math me. So the set has a use if you do not decide to ult on CD, lets call that a "playstyle".

2. If you are solely interested in maximizing burst potential for Soul Shred you are likely more stat efficient by going for a direct damage burst proc set (Before you comment on this point, read 5.).

Prionyx wrote: »

... and play as semi-ranged nightblade...

3. Soul shred has 8m radius, melee abilities have 7m. I do not know how that is now making that much of a difference compared to other ultimates. I know you mainly related to the spammable there, but what I get from your text is that you view this "playstyle" as a bundle.

4. The set grants a considerable cost reduction to an AoE direct damage and a single target direct damage spammable, as well as a single target direct heal spammable. This can generate massive resource value on its own. It also grants substantial buffs to self heals. Writing this:

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This set went from interesting to deconstruction fodder overnight with this change.

is absolutely not justified and makes a mockery of what the other classes (expect you know who) are gonna get with their sets. The set offers offensive buffs while being highly versatile on the defensive side. And I personally like it for that exact reason.

5. I get that 34 % more damage on your ult = 34 % more damage on your ult. It's not like I don't understand how the game works. That is why I said that I am open for buffs, but the set is already good as it is. You can not expect a set to be good for all "playstyles" and scenarios. It might be that this ships without being an ult burst set. Just make your peace with that possibility. And if they buff it, great.

6. I will consider the "NB lacking burst" thing a meme comment and not engage with that.

I know advocating for moderation is highly unpopular on these forums, but I am really not a fan of waiting 12+ months for nerfs on overtuned sets. For me it is completely OK if stuff comes out on the weaker side and gets adjusted along the way, instead of facing droves of player NPCs rolling with the new fotm.

And just be real, this set isn't trash. And I am not a NB hater, I play only NB.

YandereGirlfriend

Vaqual wrote: »

I will try formulate my comment with a bit more detail:

1. Soul Shred has less than twice the tooltip of Swallow Soul (I will now abbreviate both with SS for simplicity)(hehe jk). By forgoing ult usage (reminder: you lose the damage buff if you ult) you compensate for the extra damage on the ult within less than 2 casts, and you compensate the entire ult + bonus within 8 casts of Swallow Soul. If you value that kind of damage (call it DPS or pressure) then ulting becomes already optional. These are ballpark values, so don't math me. So the set has a use if you do not decide to ult on CD, lets call that a "playstyle".

2. If you are solely interested in maximizing burst potential for Soul Shred you are likely more stat efficient by going for a direct damage burst set (Before you comment on this point, read 5.).

Prionyx wrote: »

... and play as semi-ranged nightblade...

3. Soul shred has 8m radius, melee abilities have 7m. I do not know how that is now making that much of a difference compared to other ultimates. I know you mainly related to the spammable there, but what I get from your text is that you view this "playstyle" as a bundle.

4. The sets grants a considerable cost reduction to an AoE direct and a single target direct spammables, as well as a single target direct heal spammable. This can generate massive resource value on its own. It also grants substantial buffs to self heals. Writing this:

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This set went from interesting to deconstruction fodder overnight with this change.

is absolutely not justified and makes a mockery of what the other classes (expect you know who) are gonna get with their sets. The set offers offensive buffs while being highly versatile on the defensive side. And I personally like it for that exact reason.

5. I get that 34 % more damage on your ult = 34 % more damage on your ult. It's not like I don't understand how the game works. That is why I said that I am open for buffs, but the set is already good as it is. You can not expect a set to be good for all "playstyles" and scenarios. It might be that this ships without being an ult burst set. Just make your peace with that possibility. And if they buff it, great.

6. I will consider the "NB lacking burst" thing a meme comment and not engage with that.

I know advocating for moderation is highly unpopular on these forums, but I am really not a fan of waiting 12+ months for nerfs on overtuned sets. For me it is completely OK if stuff comes out on the weaker side and gets adjusted along the way, instead of facing droves of player NPCs rolling with the new fotm.

And just be real, this set isn't trash. And I am not a NB hater, I play only NB.

You're looking at this from like a dueling or 1v1 POV which is a very narrow approach to take toward the set. And if we are doing that then why even consider using Soul Tether at all - Incap is the obvious choice. If we're just fishing for more single-target damage then a standard proc set is by far the easier path as well.

And in the meantime, this change chucks the set out the window for Cyro group play, bombing or any other scenario where AOE damage is desirable (and it never was ever viable for PvE). You mention Power Extraction as being buffed by the set but it hardly matters, because you are dealing AOE damage on your spammable then you are also wanting AOE damage on your ultimate, which this set does not deliver. Nobody is going to use Power Extraction as their spammable in a 1v1 fight.

My sort of over-arching point, though, is that it is malpractice from a design perspective to introduce a "skill line set" that excludes the hallmark feature of a given skill line - the ultimate. Both the Nightblade and Arcanist sets do this and it makes literally zero sense. It also feels quite bad since those ultimates will literally never have this opportunity again.

I can think of super niche situations where this set could be okay - such as when I'm Nightblade healing using the now-godly Funnel Health and Healthy Offering in a BG - but that tiny niche scenario is not at all worth nerfing the set for basically every other use case apart from dueling.

Prionyx

Vaqual wrote: »

I will try formulate my comment with a bit more detail:

1. Soul Shred has less than twice the tooltip of Swallow Soul (I will now abbreviate both with SS for simplicity)(hehe jk). By forgoing ult usage (reminder: you lose the damage buff if you ult) you compensate for the extra damage on the ult within less than 2 casts, and you compensate the entire ult + bonus within 8 casts of Swallow Soul. If you value that kind of damage (call it DPS or pressure) then ulting becomes already optional. These are ballpark values, so don't math me. So the set has a use if you do not decide to ult on CD, lets call that a "playstyle".

2. If you are solely interested in maximizing burst potential for Soul Shred you are likely more stat efficient by going for a direct damage burst set (Before you comment on this point, read 5.).

Prionyx wrote: »

... and play as semi-ranged nightblade...

3. Soul shred has 8m radius, melee abilities have 7m. I do not know how that is now making that much of a difference compared to other ultimates. I know you mainly related to the spammable there, but what I get from your text is that you view this "playstyle" as a bundle.

4. The sets grants a considerable cost reduction to an AoE direct and a single target direct spammables, as well as a single target direct heal spammable. This can generate massive resource value on its own. It also grants substantial buffs to self heals. Writing this:

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This set went from interesting to deconstruction fodder overnight with this change.

is absolutely not justified and makes a mockery of what the other classes (expect you know who) are gonna get with their sets. The set offers offensive buffs while being highly versatile on the defensive side. And I personally like it for that exact reason.

5. I get that 34 % more damage on your ult = 34 % more damage on your ult. It's not like I don't understand how the game works. That is why I said that I am open for buffs, but the set is already good as it is. You can not expect a set to be good for all "playstyles" and scenarios. It might be that this ships without being an ult burst set. Just make your peace with that possibility. And if they buff it, great.

6. I will consider the "NB lacking burst" thing a meme comment and not engage with that.

I know advocating for moderation is highly unpopular on these forums, but I am really not a fan of waiting 12+ months for nerfs on overtuned sets. For me it is completely OK if stuff comes out on the weaker side and gets adjusted along the way, instead of facing droves of player NPCs rolling with the new fotm.

And just be real, this set isn't trash. And I am not a NB hater, I play only NB.

1. You can't compensete anything if your enemy will just outheal all of your damage standing in block. You just can't "pressure" a decent player with just your spammable and bow procs.

3. Why don't just stay ranged and come closer to enemy to use your ulti when you have a lot of points? Isn't it "semi-range"?

4. So you basically say that "necro set it useless' let's make NB set useless too"?

5. The set is not really good as it is because it just makes no sence to use it instead of other ones and sacrifice your concealed weapon. You lose more than you gain with this set that has to be double bared.

6. If you will "burst" my (full damage, 0 def sets or CP) DK or warden as nightblade I'll give you 10m gold. I already said why nightblalde doesn't have good burst damage.And I said it with facts instead of yours "oh you are probably joking".

Vaqual

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

You're looking at this from like a dueling or 1v1 POV which is a very narrow approach to take toward the set. And if we are doing that then why even consider using Soul Tether at all - Incap is the obvious choice. If we're just fishing for more single-target damage then a standard proc set is by far the easier path as well.

And in the meantime, this change chucks the set out the window for Cyro group play, bombing or any other scenario where AOE damage is desirable (and it never was ever viable for PvE). You mention Power Extraction as being buffed by the set but it hardly matters, because you are dealing AOE damage on your spammable then you are also wanting AOE damage on your ultimate, which this set does not deliver. Nobody is going to use Power Extraction as their spammable in a 1v1 fight.

My sort of over-arching point, though, is that it is malpractice from a design perspective to introduce a "skill line set" that excludes the hallmark feature of a given skill line - the ultimate. Both the Nightblade and Arcanist sets do this and it makes literally zero sense. It also feels quite bad since those ultimates will literally never have this opportunity again.

I can think of super niche situations where this set could be okay - such as when I'm Nightblade healing using the now-godly Funnel Health and Healthy Offering in a BG - but that tiny niche scenario is not at all worth nerfing the set for basically every other use case apart from dueling.

I already acknowledged the bombing point in my first comment. The sets still provides value for group play (heals on sap essence and offering). Saying that the spammable AoE damage only has value in conjunction with an ult is just a made up statement. And then I do not really understand why you mention Power Extraction in 1v1 fights, I genuinely don't see how I may have insinuated that. Whether class ults are to be considered the hallmark of a skill line is probably also debatable.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It also feels quite bad since those ultimates will literally never have this opportunity again.

This may be valid.

Edit: fixed typo

Galeriano

Prionyx wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

and currently nightblade have a low burst potential unlike stam warden or acuity mag DK

You're being sarcastic here, right?

Of course I'm not, while wardens and DKs are able to hit 30K+ combos nightablades don't even have any burst skills... All you can do is use your incap and pray that your enemy will be unexperienced enough to not roll dodge your bow proc(and most of the experienced players dodge is easily), while warden's burst will still deal more damage and is harder to aviod since you can't dodge it. If you get hit by warden's DB and shalks at like 65% of health and had no crowd control immunity you will die no metter what(unless you have a tanky build), if you get hit by nightblade's incap you just break free and roll dodge his bow proc... It's allmost impossible to outplay good DK, warden, templar or sorc as nightblade.

To be clear you can just compare what warden can do if he got lucky with one gcd: dizzying swing/wrecking blow ~7k damage, shalks ~11k damage, DB ~11k damage, execute(while you are stunned after DB) = rest of your health. Dizzying swing and DB comes at one gcd because it has 0.8 cast time and gcd is 1 second, so you can use your DB right after 0.2 second after you hit someone with dizzying swing.

What NB can do if he got lucky with one gcd: incap ~14k damage, concealed ~8k damage. If he tries to use bow proc instead of concealed it will be dodged since it's a projectail. NBs have excelent sustain and literally best mobility among other classes but NB's damage is low comparing to other classes

What if I told You that You can use soul tether or even dawnbreaker if You are affaraid that enemy would dodge Your incap and than follow it up with bow proc?

Also no dawnbreaker won't hit 0,2 sec after dizzying since dawnbreaker have 0,4 sec cast time so there is 0,6 sec time gap between the hits. It's pretty much almost the same as with incap/tether into bow proc since those two ultimates have 0,5 sec delay and bow proc have instant cast with minimal travel time.

Vaqual

Prionyx wrote: »

1. You can't compensete anything if your enemy will just outheal all of your damage standing in block. You just can't "pressure" a decent player with just your spammable and bow procs.

I clearly wrote "if you value that". If you do not like this aspect of the set then this might not be the ideal set for your needs. Your ult can be blocked too, so what even is this argument.

Prionyx wrote: »

6. If you will "burst" my (full damage, 0 def sets or CP) DK or warden as nightblade I'll give you 10m gold. I already said why nightblalde doesn't have good burst damage.And I said it with facts instead of yours "oh you are probably joking".

You have a really weird definition of burst and a seemingly unreasonable expectation of the impact this 34 % buff on Soul Shred would have, if you already consider the current NB tools insufficient.

Prionyx wrote: »

4. So you basically say that "necro set it useless' let's make NB set useless too"?

No, thats just you reading into it in a way I couldn't even have imagined. I was saying that the set is creative and versatile, has a obvious uses and synergies and is overall functional. It also buffs neglected skills. In summary, that is what I would consider good, especially compared to some of the other sets.

Prionyx wrote: »

5. The set is not really good as it is because it just makes no sence to use it instead of other ones and sacrifice your concealed weapon. You lose more than you gain with this set that has to be double bared.

You can still bring concealed. It says nowhere that you have to bring only siphoning skills.

Prionyx wrote: »

3. Why don't just stay ranged and come closer to enemy to use your ulti when you have a lot of points? Isn't it "semi-range"?

And how does is specifically make Soul Shred part of that playstyle, more than any other ult? I see no connection.

Prionyx

Galeriano wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

and currently nightblade have a low burst potential unlike stam warden or acuity mag DK

You're being sarcastic here, right?

Of course I'm not, while wardens and DKs are able to hit 30K+ combos nightablades don't even have any burst skills... All you can do is use your incap and pray that your enemy will be unexperienced enough to not roll dodge your bow proc(and most of the experienced players dodge is easily), while warden's burst will still deal more damage and is harder to aviod since you can't dodge it. If you get hit by warden's DB and shalks at like 65% of health and had no crowd control immunity you will die no metter what(unless you have a tanky build), if you get hit by nightblade's incap you just break free and roll dodge his bow proc... It's allmost impossible to outplay good DK, warden, templar or sorc as nightblade.

To be clear you can just compare what warden can do if he got lucky with one gcd: dizzying swing/wrecking blow ~7k damage, shalks ~11k damage, DB ~11k damage, execute(while you are stunned after DB) = rest of your health. Dizzying swing and DB comes at one gcd because it has 0.8 cast time and gcd is 1 second, so you can use your DB right after 0.2 second after you hit someone with dizzying swing.

What NB can do if he got lucky with one gcd: incap ~14k damage, concealed ~8k damage. If he tries to use bow proc instead of concealed it will be dodged since it's a projectail. NBs have excelent sustain and literally best mobility among other classes but NB's damage is low comparing to other classes

What if I told You that You can use soul tether or even dawnbreaker if You are affaraid that enemy would dodge Your incap and than follow it up with bow proc?

Also no dawnbreaker won't hit 0,2 sec after dizzying since dawnbreaker have 0,4 sec cast time so there is 0,6 sec time gap between the hits. It's pretty much almost the same as with incap/tether into bow proc since those two ultimates have 0,5 sec delay and bow proc have instant cast with minimal travel time.

1. What does it have to do with anything I said? If enemy will not dodge an incap he will just dodge folowing bow proc right after he breaks free from the incap's stun.

2. I never said that you can hit dawnbreaker 0.2s after dizzying, I said that you can use(cast) it. 0.2s+0.4s is still less than one gcd. But it's not just that, you will deal a lot of damage with shalks alongside with db and can make a free execute hit when your enemy is stunned. How can it be the same to bow proc if it's a projectile? It's extremely easy do dodge it and what's more importantly it's extremely predictible, you are not going to block each time warden hits you with a spammable and it's impossible to react on it.

Prionyx

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

1. You can't compensete anything if your enemy will just outheal all of your damage standing in block. You just can't "pressure" a decent player with just your spammable and bow procs.

I clearly wrote "if you value that". If you do not like this aspect of the set then this might not be the ideal set for your needs. Your ult can be blocked too, so what even is this argument.

Prionyx wrote: »

6. If you will "burst" my (full damage, 0 def sets or CP) DK or warden as nightblade I'll give you 10m gold. I already said why nightblalde doesn't have good burst damage.And I said it with facts instead of yours "oh you are probably joking".

You have a really weird definition of burst and a seemingly unreasonable expectation of the impact this 34 % buff on Soul Shred would have, if you already consider the current NB tools insufficient

Prionyx wrote: »

4. So you basically say that "necro set it useless' let's make NB set useless too"?

No, thats just you reading into it in a way I couldn't even have imagined. I was saying that the set is creative and versatile, has a obvious uses and synergies and is overall functional. It also buffs neglected skills. In summary, that is what I would consider good, especially compared to some of the other sets.

Prionyx wrote: »

5. The set is not really good as it is because it just makes no sence to use it instead of other ones and sacrifice your concealed weapon. You lose more than you gain with this set that has to be double bared.

You can still bring concealed. It says nowhere that you have to bring only siphoning skills.

What "my neads" are you talking about? As I said it makes absolutely no sence to use this set for anyone since you just lose more than you gain if it doesn't affect your ultimate.

Also if you actually say that 34% damage increase to ultimate will barely change anything then I agree that there is no point in continuing this disscussion.

Vaqual

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

1. You can't compensete anything if your enemy will just outheal all of your damage standing in block. You just can't "pressure" a decent player with just your spammable and bow procs.

I clearly wrote "if you value that". If you do not like this aspect of the set then this might not be the ideal set for your needs. Your ult can be blocked too, so what even is this argument.

Prionyx wrote: »

6. If you will "burst" my (full damage, 0 def sets or CP) DK or warden as nightblade I'll give you 10m gold. I already said why nightblalde doesn't have good burst damage.And I said it with facts instead of yours "oh you are probably joking".

You have a really weird definition of burst and a seemingly unreasonable expectation of the impact this 34 % buff on Soul Shred would have, if you already consider the current NB tools insufficient

Prionyx wrote: »

4. So you basically say that "necro set it useless' let's make NB set useless too"?

No, thats just you reading into it in a way I couldn't even have imagined. I was saying that the set is creative and versatile, has a obvious uses and synergies and is overall functional. It also buffs neglected skills. In summary, that is what I would consider good, especially compared to some of the other sets.

Prionyx wrote: »

5. The set is not really good as it is because it just makes no sence to use it instead of other ones and sacrifice your concealed weapon. You lose more than you gain with this set that has to be double bared.

You can still bring concealed. It says nowhere that you have to bring only siphoning skills.

What "my neads" are you talking about? As I said it makes absolutely no sence to use this set for anyone since you just lose more than you gain if it doesn't affect your ultimate.

Also if you actually say that 34% damage increase to ultimate will barely change anything then I agree that there is *** point in continuing this disscussion.

This is absolutely missing the point of what I am saying. You are right, on this basis the argument here makes no sense. Respectfully, at least try to understand what I have written before you respond.

And with "needs" I mean: The set clearly offers a buff to spammables, which can be a buff to pressure. Or it can be a buff to your burst, if any of the abilities are part of your burst combo. If you do not want a set that buffs your spammable, then maybe do not opt for this one. I do not know how I could be clearer.

DUTCH_REAPER

Yup. This set went from a viable option to trash with this update to it. Shame.

Prionyx

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

1. You can't compensete anything if your enemy will just outheal all of your damage standing in block. You just can't "pressure" a decent player with just your spammable and bow procs.

I clearly wrote "if you value that". If you do not like this aspect of the set then this might not be the ideal set for your needs. Your ult can be blocked too, so what even is this argument.

Prionyx wrote: »

6. If you will "burst" my (full damage, 0 def sets or CP) DK or warden as nightblade I'll give you 10m gold. I already said why nightblalde doesn't have good burst damage.And I said it with facts instead of yours "oh you are probably joking".

You have a really weird definition of burst and a seemingly unreasonable expectation of the impact this 34 % buff on Soul Shred would have, if you already consider the current NB tools insufficient

Prionyx wrote: »

4. So you basically say that "necro set it useless' let's make NB set useless too"?

No, thats just you reading into it in a way I couldn't even have imagined. I was saying that the set is creative and versatile, has a obvious uses and synergies and is overall functional. It also buffs neglected skills. In summary, that is what I would consider good, especially compared to some of the other sets.

Prionyx wrote: »

5. The set is not really good as it is because it just makes no sence to use it instead of other ones and sacrifice your concealed weapon. You lose more than you gain with this set that has to be double bared.

You can still bring concealed. It says nowhere that you have to bring only siphoning skills.

What "my neads" are you talking about? As I said it makes absolutely no sence to use this set for anyone since you just lose more than you gain if it doesn't affect your ultimate.

Also if you actually say that 34% damage increase to ultimate will barely change anything then I agree that there is *** point in continuing this disscussion.

This is absolutely missing the point of what I am saying. You are right, on this basis the argument here makes no sense. Respectfully, at least try to understand what I have written before you respond.

And with "needs" I mean: The set clearly offers a buff to spammables, which can be a buff to pressure. Or it can be a buff to your burst, if any of the abilities are part of your burst combo. If you do not want a set that buffs your spammable, then maybe do not opt for this one. I do not know how I could be clearer.

Tell me how to make any of the siphoning abilities part of burst combo. What's the point of pressure if you will not be able to get any profit from it anyways? Yes your spammables will hit harder but in the end you will not defeat a decent player this way.

Vaqual

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

1. You can't compensete anything if your enemy will just outheal all of your damage standing in block. You just can't "pressure" a decent player with just your spammable and bow procs.

I clearly wrote "if you value that". If you do not like this aspect of the set then this might not be the ideal set for your needs. Your ult can be blocked too, so what even is this argument.

Prionyx wrote: »

6. If you will "burst" my (full damage, 0 def sets or CP) DK or warden as nightblade I'll give you 10m gold. I already said why nightblalde doesn't have good burst damage.And I said it with facts instead of yours "oh you are probably joking".

You have a really weird definition of burst and a seemingly unreasonable expectation of the impact this 34 % buff on Soul Shred would have, if you already consider the current NB tools insufficient

Prionyx wrote: »

4. So you basically say that "necro set it useless' let's make NB set useless too"?

No, thats just you reading into it in a way I couldn't even have imagined. I was saying that the set is creative and versatile, has a obvious uses and synergies and is overall functional. It also buffs neglected skills. In summary, that is what I would consider good, especially compared to some of the other sets.

Prionyx wrote: »

5. The set is not really good as it is because it just makes no sence to use it instead of other ones and sacrifice your concealed weapon. You lose more than you gain with this set that has to be double bared.

You can still bring concealed. It says nowhere that you have to bring only siphoning skills.

What "my neads" are you talking about? As I said it makes absolutely no sence to use this set for anyone since you just lose more than you gain if it doesn't affect your ultimate.

Also if you actually say that 34% damage increase to ultimate will barely change anything then I agree that there is *** point in continuing this disscussion.

This is absolutely missing the point of what I am saying. You are right, on this basis the argument here makes no sense. Respectfully, at least try to understand what I have written before you respond.

And with "needs" I mean: The set clearly offers a buff to spammables, which can be a buff to pressure. Or it can be a buff to your burst, if any of the abilities are part of your burst combo. If you do not want a set that buffs your spammable, then maybe do not opt for this one. I do not know how I could be clearer.

Tell me how to make any of the siphoning abilities part of burst combo. What's the point of pressure if you will not be able to get any profit from it anyways? Yes your spammables will hit harder but in the end you will not defeat a decent player this way.

That is the point I am trying to make the entire time. You have a set that buffs sustain, heal and sustained damage. Some people like one or all of these things. You want it to buff the ult to have that for another burst combo. Sure it might do that, but it already does other things. The amount of things it offers is OK. If you do not want to have a siphoning ability to supplement your burst combo then it might not serve you well in it's current state, but that does not mean that is has no use. And even it would buff the ult, that burst combo would still not be drastically better than existing options, so it isn't like this would open a magical door to bomberland.

And disregarding the purposefulness of strong spammables is just so removed from reality, even if it they are not the gamewinner in a full try-hard back-bar block heal/front-bar ult burst combo Bergama duel.

Prionyx

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

1. You can't compensete anything if your enemy will just outheal all of your damage standing in block. You just can't "pressure" a decent player with just your spammable and bow procs.

I clearly wrote "if you value that". If you do not like this aspect of the set then this might not be the ideal set for your needs. Your ult can be blocked too, so what even is this argument.

Prionyx wrote: »

6. If you will "burst" my (full damage, 0 def sets or CP) DK or warden as nightblade I'll give you 10m gold. I already said why nightblalde doesn't have good burst damage.And I said it with facts instead of yours "oh you are probably joking".

You have a really weird definition of burst and a seemingly unreasonable expectation of the impact this 34 % buff on Soul Shred would have, if you already consider the current NB tools insufficient

Prionyx wrote: »

4. So you basically say that "necro set it useless' let's make NB set useless too"?

No, thats just you reading into it in a way I couldn't even have imagined. I was saying that the set is creative and versatile, has a obvious uses and synergies and is overall functional. It also buffs neglected skills. In summary, that is what I would consider good, especially compared to some of the other sets.

Prionyx wrote: »

5. The set is not really good as it is because it just makes no sence to use it instead of other ones and sacrifice your concealed weapon. You lose more than you gain with this set that has to be double bared.

You can still bring concealed. It says nowhere that you have to bring only siphoning skills.

What "my neads" are you talking about? As I said it makes absolutely no sence to use this set for anyone since you just lose more than you gain if it doesn't affect your ultimate.

Also if you actually say that 34% damage increase to ultimate will barely change anything then I agree that there is *** point in continuing this disscussion.

This is absolutely missing the point of what I am saying. You are right, on this basis the argument here makes no sense. Respectfully, at least try to understand what I have written before you respond.

And with "needs" I mean: The set clearly offers a buff to spammables, which can be a buff to pressure. Or it can be a buff to your burst, if any of the abilities are part of your burst combo. If you do not want a set that buffs your spammable, then maybe do not opt for this one. I do not know how I could be clearer.

Tell me how to make any of the siphoning abilities part of burst combo. What's the point of pressure if you will not be able to get any profit from it anyways? Yes your spammables will hit harder but in the end you will not defeat a decent player this way.

That is the point I am trying to make the entire time. You have a set that buffs sustain, heal and sustained damage. Some people like one or all of these things. You want it to buff the ult to have that for another burst combo. Sure it might do that, but it already does other things. The amount of things it offers is OK. If you do not want to have a siphoning ability to supplement your burst combo then it might not serve you well in it's current state, but that does not mean that is has no use. And even it would buff the ult, that burst combo would still not be drastically better than existing options, so it isn't like this would open a magical door to bomberland.

And disregarding the purposefulness of strong spammables is just so removed from reality, even if it they are not the gamewinner in a full try-hard back-bar block heal/front-bar ult burst combo Bergama duel.

If you want to get more sustain and damage just run wretched and CA(I mentioned 2 sets because if you want to use soulcleaver you have to sacrifice other 5 piece set) instead and you will have way better sustain and WAY more damage. That's what I'm saying. It makes no sence to use this set for absolutely any purpose since other sets are just way better. It's current buffs are way to niche.

Vaqual

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

1. You can't compensete anything if your enemy will just outheal all of your damage standing in block. You just can't "pressure" a decent player with just your spammable and bow procs.

I clearly wrote "if you value that". If you do not like this aspect of the set then this might not be the ideal set for your needs. Your ult can be blocked too, so what even is this argument.

Prionyx wrote: »

6. If you will "burst" my (full damage, 0 def sets or CP) DK or warden as nightblade I'll give you 10m gold. I already said why nightblalde doesn't have good burst damage.And I said it with facts instead of yours "oh you are probably joking".

You have a really weird definition of burst and a seemingly unreasonable expectation of the impact this 34 % buff on Soul Shred would have, if you already consider the current NB tools insufficient

Prionyx wrote: »

4. So you basically say that "necro set it useless' let's make NB set useless too"?

No, thats just you reading into it in a way I couldn't even have imagined. I was saying that the set is creative and versatile, has a obvious uses and synergies and is overall functional. It also buffs neglected skills. In summary, that is what I would consider good, especially compared to some of the other sets.

Prionyx wrote: »

5. The set is not really good as it is because it just makes no sence to use it instead of other ones and sacrifice your concealed weapon. You lose more than you gain with this set that has to be double bared.

You can still bring concealed. It says nowhere that you have to bring only siphoning skills.

What "my neads" are you talking about? As I said it makes absolutely no sence to use this set for anyone since you just lose more than you gain if it doesn't affect your ultimate.

Also if you actually say that 34% damage increase to ultimate will barely change anything then I agree that there is *** point in continuing this disscussion.

This is absolutely missing the point of what I am saying. You are right, on this basis the argument here makes no sense. Respectfully, at least try to understand what I have written before you respond.

And with "needs" I mean: The set clearly offers a buff to spammables, which can be a buff to pressure. Or it can be a buff to your burst, if any of the abilities are part of your burst combo. If you do not want a set that buffs your spammable, then maybe do not opt for this one. I do not know how I could be clearer.

Tell me how to make any of the siphoning abilities part of burst combo. What's the point of pressure if you will not be able to get any profit from it anyways? Yes your spammables will hit harder but in the end you will not defeat a decent player this way.

That is the point I am trying to make the entire time. You have a set that buffs sustain, heal and sustained damage. Some people like one or all of these things. You want it to buff the ult to have that for another burst combo. Sure it might do that, but it already does other things. The amount of things it offers is OK. If you do not want to have a siphoning ability to supplement your burst combo then it might not serve you well in it's current state, but that does not mean that is has no use. And even it would buff the ult, that burst combo would still not be drastically better than existing options, so it isn't like this would open a magical door to bomberland.

And disregarding the purposefulness of strong spammables is just so removed from reality, even if it they are not the gamewinner in a full try-hard back-bar block heal/front-bar ult burst combo Bergama duel.

If you want to get more sustain and damage just run wretched and CA(I mentioned 2 sets because if you want to use soulcleaver you have to sacrifice other 5 piece set) instead and you will have way better sustain and WAY more damage. That's what I'm saying. It makes no sence to use this set for absolutely any purpose since other sets are just way better. It's current buffs are way to niche.

So we are both making the same argument, just the other way around, with the difference I am working off the current state of the set and you off an updated version of it?

Danse_Mayhem

No…I’m a magblade main, but A set like this should not work with ultimates.
34% damage increase on soul tether?? That would have made it onto every magblade no questions asked.
The whole point of the set is to buff damage/healing at the cost of ultimate, so if you could apply this damage to the ultimate then it would be defeating the point.
It’s still going to be really strong and a great addition to the options a magblade has, bringing back ranged play and making swallow soul viable again - not to mention the healthy offering heal will be insanely strong at full strength. It was a good change

Prionyx

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

No…I’m a magblade main, but A set like this should not work with ultimates.
34% damage increase on soul tether?? That would have made it onto every magblade no questions asked.
The whole point of the set is to buff damage/healing at the cost of ultimate, so if you could apply this damage to the ultimate then it would be defeating the point.
It’s still going to be really strong and a great addition to the options a magblade has, bringing back ranged play and making swallow soul viable again - not to mention the healthy offering heal will be insanely strong at full strength. It was a good change

It will not bring any ranged nightblades back since set will not be good this way. You lose more than you gain. Why wouln't this set work with ultimates if balorgh does and gives you basically the same amount of damage? And how would this "defeat the point" if ultimate fits the requirements of the set? You have more then 20 ultimate points while casting your ultimate so it should receive set's buff and when you cast it should be gone immediately.

Danse_Mayhem

Sorry I just don’t agree. The set brings back swallow soul as a viable spammable, cripple as a viable DOT, and makes the already strong healthy offering much stronger. That’s more than enough power in a set without giving an AOE ultimate 34% dmg increase.
Again, I’m saying this as a magblade main of 8 years since release, this set will be great on ranged blade 100%, and adding tether to the skills that get buffed would just be needlessly strong.
I feel like anyone wanting tether included here hasn’t really seen the bigger picture.
Magblades can already be extremely survivable - More so when using this set because the passive heals from swallow soul will be boosted, along with putting healthy offering up to the single strongest burst heal in the game…
Do you really want those us guys to then spin around and drop a 20k+ tether on you with all the booster healing that comes with it?

It would be so busted. I’d enjoy it for a moment but it would be tedious as hell to face. The set is fine.

Wandering_Immigrant

1. They never said this was a known issue they were working on fixing, just that it didn't work as the tooltip implied. My guess is they left it ambiguously open for interpretation intentionally to look at feedback.

2. The reason balorg works on ultimates is because of the delay on ultimates. Balorgs procs when you press the button and therefore is active once the delay is ended and the damage goes off. This set does not for the same reason, you press the button, bonus is remove, so no bonus after the delay.

Adding 34% damage to an already strong ultimate, and one used by bombers none the less, is just begging for a nerf to the ultimate or the set or both.

I'm a nightblade main, I have plans to try this set on a PvP healer build. I am 100% ok with the set not working on ultimate.

MashmalloMan

I haven't read through all the comments here, but it seems to me like this change goes against how the set is designed.

Incap/Soul Harvest is the best damage ult NBs have, using this set means you probably don't want to use that ultimate in favour of something that costs more to max out your sets bonus as much as possible.

Soul Tether is the obvious runner up because it's from the line this set is based on and costs 150-170ish depending on vampirsm. Without the bonus, it feels like it's no longer a complete package for the skill line.

I think what they should do is nerf the ceiling of the set from 34% damage/healing down to maybe 20%ish, but cap it at 150 ult and allow it to effect the ultimate as well.

1. The set becomes less of a problem to justify the bonus on, because I doubt their reasoning is solely based on "you don't have over 20 ultimate after you spend it" and more about balance. If it was a technical hurdle they would have showed interest in fixing it.
2. Nerfing the bonus a bit gets rid of some balance issues with offering one of the best burst heals in the game a whopping +34% healing buff.
3. The set effects every skill in the skill line as it should, it doesn't make sense to add invisible walls just because it's an ultimate. It should be adjusted to allow the ultimate to play with the set in any way possible.
4. Since the 150 cap matches the 150 cost, it becomes more of a strategic choice when you fire the ultimate instead of firing it as soon as possible at 150 and missing out on the 34% bonus or waiting till 200 and wasting ultimate. That feels like more of an ultimatum than a choice imo.
5. With a lower ceiling and barrier, using lower cost ultimates like incap become less of a self nerf opening up a bit of diversity to the set.

But hey, I don't play NB so what do I know

Prionyx

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

1. They never said this was a known issue they were working on fixing, just that it didn't work as the tooltip implied. My guess is they left it ambiguously open for interpretation intentionally to look at feedback.

2. The reason balorg works on ultimates is because of the delay on ultimates. Balorgs procs when you press the button and therefore is active once the delay is ended and the damage goes off. This set does not for the same reason, you press the button, bonus is remove, so no bonus after the delay.

Adding 34% damage to an already strong ultimate, and one used by bombers none the less, is just begging for a nerf to the ultimate or the set or both.

I'm a nightblade main, I have plans to try this set on a PvP healer build. I am 100% ok with the set not working on ultimate.

1. "My guess is they left it ambiguously open for interpretation intentionally to look at feedback." - where is the feedback that stated that this set will be overpowered if it will affect ultimate? Noone even had an oppurtunity to properly test it.

2. If you cancel your soul tether with block or something else your ultimate will not be spended, you spend your ultimate at the moment when ultimate deals damage. As well as balorgh doesn't proc if you press the button, it procs when you spend your ultimate points. You can't just press your DB and cancel it with a block and receive a balorgh's buff.

"Adding 34% damage to an already strong ultimate, and one used by bombers none the less, is just begging for a nerf to the ultimate or the set or both." - why? It's not buffing corrosive or any other strong ultimate, it's buffing soul tether.

Prionyx

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I haven't read through all the comments here, but it seems to me like this change goes against how the set is designed.

Incap/Soul Harvest is the best damage ult NBs have, using this set means you probably don't want to use that ultimate in favour of something that costs more to max out your sets bonus as much as possible.

Soul Tether is the obvious runner up because it's from the line this set is based on and costs 150-170ish depending on vampirsm. Without the bonus, it feels like it's no longer a complete package for the skill line.

I think what they should do is nerf the ceiling of the set from 34% damage/healing down to maybe 20%ish, but cap it at 150 ult and allow it to effect the ultimate as well.

1. The set becomes less of a problem to justify the bonus on, because I doubt their reasoning is solely based on "you don't have over 20 ultimate after you spend it" and more about balance. If it was a technical hurdle they would have showed interest in fixing it.
2. Nerfing the bonus a bit gets rid of some balance issues with offering one of the best burst heals in the game a whopping +34% healing buff.
3. The set effects every skill in the skill line as it should, it doesn't make sense to add invisible walls just because it's an ultimate. It should be adjusted to allow the ultimate to play with the set in any way possible.
4. Since the 150 cap matches the 150 cost, it becomes more of a strategic choice when you fire the ultimate instead of firing it as soon as possible at 150 and missing out on the 34% bonus or waiting till 200 and wasting ultimate. That feels like more of an ultimatum than a choice imo.
5. With a lower ceiling and barrier, using lower cost ultimates like incap become less of a self nerf opening up a bit of diversity to the set.

But hey, I don't play NB so what do I know

More likely turn it into 17% of the ultimate with hte maximum of 400 ultimate, but it still doesn't really makes sence since it will not be overpowered and even with this damage buff nightblade will still be underpowered comparing to other classes(except necro and arcanist)