Class Set Feedback

ESO_Nightingale

Hey everyone, and especially the community and development teams at zos including @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

Today i wanted to give my feedback on the concept of class sets as a whole, many others have echoed their thoughts towards individual sets, but today i actually wanted to focus on the concept itself as i think that class sets have some insanely beneficial potential, however, to me i don't feel as if they're being given enough room to fill that potential. i'll explain what i mean in different categories after i explain my initial thoughts on them.

Initial Thoughts

Having been a proponent of the introduction of class sets, i was very excited when it was revealed we would be getting them. I think that class sets are a great or even necessary direction to go for many reasons.
Firstly, class sets should allow for bonuses that are uniquely related towards specific class builds allowing combos and reactionary game elements to become possible between class skills without changing the base skills. I think this is important because class playstyle nuance is severely lacking, and has been for many many years. Pvp is somewhat spared from this. However, in most situations in PvE environments, the go-to strategy is to lay down as many damage over time effects and periodic skills as possible between casts of a spammable and whatever the class's delayed burst skill is. this means that the playstyle that nearly every class has is pretty much the same give or take 1-3 skills.
Additionally, we have so many item sets that are built for "everyone" that most are extremely boring and don't feel like they serve an actual purpose beyond the illusion of choice. when you have hundreds or thousands of item sets, most are bound to be terrible in comparison to many other sets that are commonly used. while the introduction of class sets makes the count of sets continue to go up, these sets focus on the classes that are wearing them and are supposed to tuned to be strong as they are for a limited audience. This is a game of mostly horizontal progression, for right now, this is the best we can do to expand upon classes beyond class balance changes without creating something like an in-depth talent system.
Finally, in terms of aesthetics, class sets are visually designed both in their armor appearance and effect appearance to reflect the class they represent. This helps the set to feel like an extension of the class.

Now that I've explained my thoughts about class sets as a whole, we get to the revealed class sets.

I don't want to go over any specific class set, however as i stated in another post, i feel like these are a testing ground and that some have very clearly had more effort put into them than some others. Let me go over my issues with the current iteration of these class sets.

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5 Piece bonuses and power levels

As stated before, the amount of 5 piece sets we actually have in the game at the current moment is staggering. And the amount of them that are genuinely useless only grows every patch as there will always be a select few item sets that are popular and good. I believe that adding class sets as more 5 piece bonuses are a mistake. This is for several reasons.
Firstly, we dont have much room to experiment with 5 piece sets. Especially in PvE environments. Trial Sets are necessary as they offer more than any other set which means, if you want to use a class set you need to give up your other non-trial set which means eliminating any overland, most crafted and most dungeon or pvp sets from your list of options.
Secondly, these item sets seem to intend you to build or play a certain way in which to gain access to their buffs, this usually means sacrificing some damage/utility to play to the set's strength which means the set needs to not only be strong on it's own right, but it also needs to be strong enough to make up for the lack of a better easier bonus. requiring 5 pieces means it's harder to make up for that.
Finally, if, theoretically, that item set is built to be dual purpose so that it provides a strong bonus to the roles benefitting from that skill line, it means more of the generic 2 to 4 piece bonuses will drag the set down. Say for example, you're making a class set around winter's embrace and you decide to allow the set to be strong for both warden tanks and frost dps, what 2-4 piece bonuses do you give it? You can't give it critical chance because tanks don't like that stat even though its one of the best for dps, and you can't give it max hp or health recovery because there's no dps benefit that bonus grants even though it helps you stay alive. If you are instead to dedicate it to one or another role within that skill line then you bring me to my next problem.

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Potential conflicting purpose within skill line representation

Continuing with what i stated in the previous section, if you dedicate a new set to just one audience of the a skill line, then you alienate those people who are excited to finally get an item set based around the skill line they based their build around. I speak with experience in suggesting balance changes for the winter's embrace skill line. There are 2 distinct audiences of the skill line that would be upset if the bonus was purely for tanking or vice versa, for dps. How do you balance that?

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Augmenting playstyles, going wild with ideas

I believe that the correct focus here is to go wild with augmenting playstyles and class skills and incentivising combos, it looks like some some of these sets already point towards this. Incentivising the use of skills within the line with unique and powerful bonuses attached to them is really going to open up build options. However, with some current designs I am very worried that a lot of future class sets are going to look something like: "when you use a skill from x line, grant yourself(or allies) (generic minor buff) or (generic bonus)" these sets have to be more than that. they should be tailored towards promoting specific playstyles, and i think they should also mention specific skills and their morphs like how the weapon skill lines mention specific morphs.

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Suggestions

I believe that the structure of these item sets should be changed significantly.

instead of another 5 piece bonus with 3 generic bonuses leading up to it, i think that instead these class specific bonuses should be the only bonuses within the set up to a final bonus of 3 pieces equipped. What I mean by this is they should forgo any generic piece bonus. examples like extra health/magicka/stamina, recoveries, armor, critical chance, penetration, and stuff like that should simply be removed in order for the piece bonuses to instead grant a specific bonus to that skill line or to certain skills etc. if you have free space in your sets, you could freely take multiple pieces of the set, or only up until the first bonus as a front or backbar option, this would also allow class sets to be INCREDIBLE filler sets as they come in every armor type, jewelery and presumably weapons, this would be fantastic as it would allow builds more ability to equip these class sets and really feel like they're more connected to the class while having a reason to farm them. An example i can showcase is this idea i had for the winter's embrace line's class set:


This bonus is almost certainly completely overpowered, but it's concept exists to show multiple ideas. firstly it aims to achieve a common desire for frost warden dps and to a lesser extent, warden tanks and that is to make sleet storm viable in pve content as a major dps outputting ultimate that can compete with bear, or for tanking as a longer term duration major protection to self in addition to fantastic minor maim uptime and some solid aoe dps output, this would be a major playstyle shift that would make a lot of players interested in playing with sleet storm in content outside of pvp. inside of pvp, this would be a very strong option provided you're applying chilled with winter's embrace abilities as often as possible with skills like crystallised slab and arctic blast, however, it also has a downside which could be used to balance potentially broken set ideas. the downside for this set is that major protection from the ultimate only applies to the caster. if you don't play around the conditions set within the set, you're likely losing a ton of value from the bonus which means it's a little bit more balanced than on paper as you won't be able to keep absurdly high uptimes if you don't keep applying chilled.

Turtle_Bot

It would definitely help if the same care and thought was put into designing the sets for all classes to be of equivalent power and functionality instead of only for the 2 favorites.

How they can think that giving DK both major and minor heroism in one set is a good idea after the mess that was the oakensoul meta is beyond me.

The fact that sorc is begging for a complete rework to its entire class kit specifically to bring back the old no-pet builds that have not existed for 5+years now and all they gave it was a (extremely likely) very bad proc set that is worse than existing bad proc sets is another one... The only way this set would have helped sorc as a class is if the proc was completely overpowered which is not what the class needs or wants.

It's like they're not even trying to hide their bias anymore, its just buff after buff (or broken set) for DK, NB and recently arcanist (this gets a pass for now since its the newest class) who have been allowed to do anything and everything while the other classes get temporary buffs for a single patch at best or just flat out nerfed into oblivion at worst because they're "supposed to have weaknesses"...

Bushido2513

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It would definitely help if the same care and thought was put into designing the sets for all classes to be of equivalent power and functionality instead of only for the 2 favorites.

How they can think that giving DK both major and minor heroism in one set is a good idea after the mess that was the oakensoul meta is beyond me.

Going to be hopeful and think of this as we had to start somewhere. Likewise I hope that during PTS the obvious design issues will show through and being that the sets aren't linked to sales but just general interest in the game, there will be decent adjustments.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The fact that sorc is begging for a complete rework to its entire class kit specifically to bring back the old no-pet builds that have not existed for 5+years now and all they gave it was a (extremely likely) very bad proc set that is worse than existing bad proc sets is another one... The only way this set would have helped sorc as a class is if the proc was completely overpowered which is not what the class needs or wants.

Only thing I'm thinking is that I hear each class will get 3 sets and this one for sorc would if anything be aimed at pve I'm guessing. So in theory this set could be tweaked to be better but also sorc might get a set that's more relevant for pvp at some point.


But it's important to note that trying to flesh out an interesting idea on top of an unbalanced game where pve and pvp are linked is going to lead to flawed outcomes pretty much every time. So you kind of always have to know that going in when thinking about the results we're going to possibly get.

Twohothardware

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It would definitely help if the same care and thought was put into designing the sets for all classes to be of equivalent power and functionality instead of only for the 2 favorites.

How they can think that giving DK both major and minor heroism in one set is a good idea after the mess that was the oakensoul meta is beyond me.

What if there is a big nerf to Corrosive Armor and they're adding this set to soften the blow.

Bushido2513

Twohothardware wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

What if there is a big nerf to Corrosive Armor and they're adding this set to soften the blow.

Only problem would be how weak every other build that wasn't wearing this would become. Though it would be wonderful if Corrosive ever got any kind of adjustment overall.

I'm betting they will just adjust the uptime, remove one of the ult gen mechanisms, or adjust the overall mechanic.

MashmalloMan

Yeah of all the sets, DK and NB definitely stood out.

I was initially excited for Sorc's, and still am to some extent, but it's for the wrong reasons. Almost every shock based damage set has been lack luster, anything that was close to being good fell flat.

That overhealing lightning proc set. That shock proc on 15% of all shock DMG set. The heavy attack lightning flood set. The heavy attack tornado/storm set. Ilambris. Aurora's thunder set.

They're all inferior to other generic sets, even on Sorc, so what is the point of using any of them? The only legit good storm themed sets have been around for 7-8 years in Stormfist and Relequen.

Which brings me back to Sorc's new set and how it functions. It procs a node on the first tick and every 5th tick of a Storm skill. Based on the wording, enemies only take damage from the link between connected nodes, not the node itself.

Most Sorcs and especially Stam Sorc's only use 1 Storm skill from Hurricane/Boundless storm.

So that Sorc fights 1 enemy, let's say a boss.. where DPS really matters most. Hurricane is already running pre fight, so the first tick doesn't hit, we now have to wait 9-6 seconds until the 5th tick at 10s since it hits once every 2s.

Yay! A node procs.. but wait.. the set says the beam does the damage.. oh okay, so now I need to wait another 10s for the 10th and final tick of Hurricane to get a link going so I can start dealing some damage with my CLASS SPECIFIC set.

That sounds ridiculous.

1. It's passive, in a best case scenario with multiple enemies, you're doing nothing and it's procing nodes and links for you.

2. Worst case scenario it takes 15-20s to get started... then the enemy moves to their next stage and you deal no damage.

Why not just continue to use Pillar of Nirn in this case?

All this being said, some of my points are moot if the set deals damage on the nodes too. Maybe the proc DMG is much stronger than other proc sets, we won't know till tomorrow. At the very least, I hope it's flashy.. but I can't help but be jelly of how NB's set functions in that it actually buffs the skill line in use.

Imagine instead of another 100th DMG proc, it did unique effects for each ability. Off the top of my head:

Hurricane and morphs give an additional 5% movement speed.

Fury and morphs deal 50% more upfront DMG (making it a pseudo shock spammable).

Surge and morphs also grant major savagery/prophecy.

Streak and morphs leave behind a rectangular aoe shock field that deals x shock DMG every 1s for 10s.

Lightning Flood and morphs synergy can be used by the user as well as 1 additional ally.

Overloads ultimate cost use is reduced by 15%.

Bushido2513

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Yeah of all the sets, DK and NB definitely stood out.

I was initially excited for Sorc's, and still am to some extent, but it's for the wrong reasons. Almost every shock based damage set has been lack luster, anything that was close to being good fell flat.

That overhealing lightning proc set. That shock proc on 15% of all shock DMG set. The heavy attack lightning flood set. The heavy attack tornado/storm set. Ilambris. Aurora's thunder set.

They're all inferior to other generic sets, even on Sorc, so what is the point of using any of them? The only legit good storm themed sets have been around for 7-8 years in Stormfist and Relequen.

Which brings me back to Sorc's new set and how it functions. It procs a node on the first tick and every 5th tick of a Storm skill. Based on the wording, enemies only take damage from the link between connected nodes, not the node itself.

Most Sorcs and especially Stam Sorc's only use 1 Storm skill from Hurricane/Boundless storm.

So that Sorc fights 1 enemy, let's say a boss.. where DPS really matters most. Hurricane is already running pre fight, so the first tick doesn't hit, we now have to wait 9-6 seconds until the 5th tick at 10s since it hits once every 2s.

Yay! A node procs.. but wait.. the set says the beam does the damage.. oh okay, so now I need to wait another 10s for the 10th and final tick of Hurricane to get a link going so I can start dealing some damage with my CLASS SPECIFIC set.

That sounds ridiculous.

1. It's passive, in a best case scenario with multiple enemies, you're doing nothing and it's procing nodes and links for you.

2. Worst case scenario it takes 15-20s to get started... then the enemy moves to their next stage and you deal no damage.

Why not just continue to use Pillar of Nirn in this case?

All this being said, some of my points are moot if the set deals damage on the nodes too. Maybe the proc DMG is much stronger than other proc sets, we won't know till tomorrow. At the very least, I hope it's flashy.. but I can't help but be jelly of how NB's set functions in that it actually buffs the skill line in use.

Imagine instead of another 100th DMG proc, it did unique effects for each ability. Off the top of my head:

Hurricane and morphs give an additional 5% movement speed.

Fury and morphs deal 50% more upfront DMG (making it a pseudo shock spammable).

Surge and morphs also grant major savagery/prophecy.

Streak and morphs leave behind a rectangular aoe shock field that deals x shock DMG every 1s for 10s.

Lightning Flood and morphs synergy can be used by the user as well as 1 additional ally.

Overloads ultimate cost use is reduced by 15%.

So this is interesting because you sort of addressed a lot of things you brought up in the same post.

There's three types of sets we're talking about here. There's fun sets, performance sets, and fun sets that perform.

This set seems more about theme and fun than it is about performance and I think to some degree that's ok too but I think you always have to look at your goal and just wear the set that fits.

I think this set at least gives a fun visual proc that attempts to let the player get into a theme but each class still has two more sets to go so you have to account for that as well I suppose.

Turtle_Bot

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It would definitely help if the same care and thought was put into designing the sets for all classes to be of equivalent power and functionality instead of only for the 2 favorites.

How they can think that giving DK both major and minor heroism in one set is a good idea after the mess that was the oakensoul meta is beyond me.

Going to be hopeful and think of this as we had to start somewhere. Likewise I hope that during PTS the obvious design issues will show through and being that the sets aren't linked to sales but just general interest in the game, there will be decent adjustments.

I used to have this hope too, they adjusted shields and it looked to be the start of working on sorc and no pet sorc in particular, then they just completely abandoned it in favour of more pets and QoL for pets and skills in the pet line...

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The fact that sorc is begging for a complete rework to its entire class kit specifically to bring back the old no-pet builds that have not existed for 5+years now and all they gave it was a (extremely likely) very bad proc set that is worse than existing bad proc sets is another one... The only way this set would have helped sorc as a class is if the proc was completely overpowered which is not what the class needs or wants.

Only thing I'm thinking is that I hear each class will get 3 sets and this one for sorc would if anything be aimed at pve I'm guessing. So in theory this set could be tweaked to be better but also sorc might get a set that's more relevant for pvp at some point.


But it's important to note that trying to flesh out an interesting idea on top of an unbalanced game where pve and pvp are linked is going to lead to flawed outcomes pretty much every time. So you kind of always have to know that going in when thinking about the results we're going to possibly get.

Yes, each class will get 3 sets, but based on ZOS recent (well for the past 5+ years) actions, it seems like they are simply just going to make the pet set much stronger than the other 2 sets for sorc which will only force sorcs even more into pets (if those sets are even worth running), which is not what the class needs and not what a great many number of sorc mains want from the class.

The set for storm calling in particular being the first released set was their chance to actually do something for no pet sorc to bring back an option to make it viable like they did for the NB set, but all they did was make a "fun" set that isn't functional at all (what the pet line set should have been).

Compare it to the NB set, that not only buffed NBs already strong abilities such as tether and offering, allowing for some nice buffs at the minimum and potentially a whole new (well bring back an old) playstyle by allowing for a potentially viable swallow soul build to be theorized.

Considering the current balance of the game, you would think that the top classes (DK/NB) would have gotten the "interesting idea" sets while the other classes get the functional sets this round to allow for bringing the other classes up to closer to their level (or NB at the minimum would have had a set designed entirely around PvE where it actually needs some help) instead of giving the currently top classes the sets that focus on function over fun.

It's all a mute point at the moment until the PTS is released and people can get on it to see any potential changes to class abilities etc, but based on the current knowledge that we have (the set descriptions and current state of the sorcerer class), combined with ZOS's actions over the years regarding their balance changes regarding sorcerers (which has constantly gone against their stated combat goals and comments regarding the class), it is understandable why many people are not happy with the current iteration of the set announced for the sorcerer class.

Once we get access to the PTS, we will know for sure what ZOS's plans for sorcerer (and by extension necro, plar and warden) are and if the set will actually be something interesting for the class to potentially build around or if it will be another complete failure on ZOS part in listening to the feedback of their paying customers.

Tannus15

the nightblade set for PvE is trash. maybe for PvP it'll be useful, or maybe for nightblade healers, but can we stop pretending it's good for anything else?
if the nightblade set was given to sorc on the storm calling skill line it would be trash and we wouldn't use it.

that said, it's still better than the sorc set. the only way the sorc set works is run mages fury to intentionally proc the nodes. Even then an enemy can only take damage from the set once, so it's not good to run on multiple sorcs. dps sets that can only be used on 1 dps are bad sets unless they provide some sort of support. this doesn't.
proc sets that require a dps loss to proc are also bad.
this is a badly designed set and i don't know what it's intended purpose is. maybe it's for killing trash in an endless dungeon?

imo the biggest issue with the approach is that spending a 5pc set to buff only 1 skill line is always going to be weak. the reason the DK set is so strong is it doesn't buff 1 skill line, it buffs everything
The sorc set could be a fine, if boring, proc set if they fix the proc conditions and i'd happily see it replace nirn for sorcs for no other reason than variety.

either cut it back to 3pc and allow us to open up other set options like arena weapons or monster sets or make it far more targetted than "buffs ardant flame skills" to buff the skills that matter like jabs and beam.

and most of all take into account how the class works when setting out proc conditions. both the templar and sorc proc conditions are bad and don't fit naturally into the play style. even if the "power balance" of a set on paper looks good, if we have to run an inferior rotation just to get it to work, it's not worth running.

Tannus15

just to make it abundantly clear.

no one uses the weapon sets which buff weapon lines like spider cult or swordmaster because even if you're buffing 60% of your damage, something like julianos which buffs all your damage is better.

UsualSurrender

Tannus15 wrote: »

just to make it abundantly clear.

no one uses the weapon sets which buff weapon lines like spider cult or swordmaster because even if you're buffing 60% of your damage, something like julianos which buffs all your damage is better.

Though people would use them if these sets buffed all weapons damage. That would bring them on par with War-Maiden, for instance, which is a decent (albeit not meta) set for a few specific classes and builds.

VixxVexx

The DK set isn't just disproportionally more powerful. It is the only one that fits on every type of build in every type of environment: pve, pvp, tank, support, healer, dps, large group, small scale, solo, openworld, bgs etc.

kojou

I feel like this post is about 24 hours too soon... we haven't seen the sets in the context of the entire patch. We are only thinking in terms of how it impacts the live server. That said the track record for the developers has been less than perfect in this regard so I can understand why some of us might think the sky is falling.

J18696

kojou wrote: »

I feel like this post is about 24 hours too soon... we haven't seen the sets in the context of the entire patch. We are only thinking in terms of how it impacts the live server. That said the track record for the developers has been less than perfect in this regard so I can understand why some of us might think the sky is falling.

Yes and no there could be class balance changes togo hand in hand with the sets that could make them less or more useful but dosnt take a genius to see that the dk set is miles more useful in general than nearly all the other sets

ESO_Nightingale

kojou wrote: »

I feel like this post is about 24 hours too soon... we haven't seen the sets in the context of the entire patch. We are only thinking in terms of how it impacts the live server. That said the track record for the developers has been less than perfect in this regard so I can understand why some of us might think the sky is falling.

i feel like the post is fine as the first item sets have been announced so we know the rough design ideas. i also didn't even cover any of the specific designs either. everyone else in the comments is though. them being more 5 piece sets is a major issue i have with them, in addtion to the miriad problems being 5 piece sets creates for their viability.

Cast_El

kojou wrote: »

I feel like this post is about 24 hours too soon... we haven't seen the sets in the context of the entire patch. We are only thinking in terms of how it impacts the live server. That said the track record for the developers has been less than perfect in this regard so I can understand why some of us might think the sky is falling.

Just look at Dk set description

Cast_El

How about doing the dk set a one piece bonus set?
Seriously 😒
Why everyone but the dev can see the problems.
Hope they will listen, already too much DK in PvP

Galeriano

People lost their minds over the DK set like it wouldn't be already possible to build high ulti gen+high healing setup.

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It would definitely help if the same care and thought was put into designing the sets for all classes to be of equivalent power and functionality instead of only for the 2 favorites.

How they can think that giving DK both major and minor heroism in one set is a good idea after the mess that was the oakensoul meta is beyond me.

The fact that sorc is begging for a complete rework to its entire class kit specifically to bring back the old no-pet builds that have not existed for 5+years now and all they gave it was a (extremely likely) very bad proc set that is worse than existing bad proc sets is another one... The only way this set would have helped sorc as a class is if the proc was completely overpowered which is not what the class needs or wants.

It's like they're not even trying to hide their bias anymore, its just buff after buff (or broken set) for DK, NB and recently arcanist (this gets a pass for now since its the newest class) who have been allowed to do anything and everything while the other classes get temporary buffs for a single patch at best or just flat out nerfed into oblivion at worst because they're "supposed to have weaknesses"...

I play a DK and while the set seemingly gives some love to DK, I can say it's probably not enough. Major Heroism could have come either as a mythic or as a monster mask, but on a 5 piece set is not enough. At least the buff is continuous, unlike on the Drake's Rush set. And there is a one piece gain - no need for Oakensoul. Yes, it leaves room for another mythic or a full monster mask to be used, but still, it's probably marginally efficient versus Heartland Conqueror with two-handed Decisive weapon.

OolongSnakeTea

I'm mixed feelings, I feel Necro is the weakest showing, but it could have intresting gimicks (self-as a corpse with tethers). But both Necro and DK being flat out 'tanky' where everyone feels mixed (arcanist arugebly healer'esk)- in the lense of PVE (I have no say about pvp other then they could be intresting on paper?).. However, they all feel like they were desgined for the type of 'encounters' in the Archive itself. Which fits theme, and is cool- but limited outside of applications.

Adding Minor Slayer and keeping it 5 would be cool. Or the suggested 3 peice could also prove to be intresting in build crafting (breaking up the 5/5/2monster/arena ect, or 5/5/2 arena/1mythic/1 monster ect). Much like how mythics shook up how builds were designed, and the changes in armor weights. This could have the potential across both pve and pvp to shake up how we make builds. Which ultimately adds more play time/replay time for this activity.

What I am hoping is that this project, the archive itself, will become scalible. That they add more sets based off of the other 2 trees of each class (28 more sets total added)- to allow players to play more into the gimmicks of those trees. That way it doesn't feel to pidgeon holed into 'necro tank set' 'dk tank set' 'arcanist support set' ect.

Tannus15

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It would definitely help if the same care and thought was put into designing the sets for all classes to be of equivalent power and functionality instead of only for the 2 favorites.

How they can think that giving DK both major and minor heroism in one set is a good idea after the mess that was the oakensoul meta is beyond me.

The fact that sorc is begging for a complete rework to its entire class kit specifically to bring back the old no-pet builds that have not existed for 5+years now and all they gave it was a (extremely likely) very bad proc set that is worse than existing bad proc sets is another one... The only way this set would have helped sorc as a class is if the proc was completely overpowered which is not what the class needs or wants.

It's like they're not even trying to hide their bias anymore, its just buff after buff (or broken set) for DK, NB and recently arcanist (this gets a pass for now since its the newest class) who have been allowed to do anything and everything while the other classes get temporary buffs for a single patch at best or just flat out nerfed into oblivion at worst because they're "supposed to have weaknesses"...

I play a DK and while the set seemingly gives some love to DK, I can say it's probably not enough. Major Heroism could have come either as a mythic or as a monster mask, but on a 5 piece set is not enough. At least the buff is continuous, unlike on the Drake's Rush set. And there is a one piece gain - no need for Oakensoul. Yes, it leaves room for another mythic or a full monster mask to be used, but still, it's probably marginally efficient versus Heartland Conqueror with two-handed Decisive weapon.

This is the closest set in game currently to the new dk set. Major heroism is significantly stronger than 171 weapon damage.

Shalk Exoskeleton
2 items: Adds 28-1206 Maximum Health
3 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: Adds 3-171 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 items: Gain Minor Heroism at all times while you are in combat, generating 1 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds.

ESO_Nightingale

Tannus15 wrote: »

fxeconomisteb17_ESO wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It would definitely help if the same care and thought was put into designing the sets for all classes to be of equivalent power and functionality instead of only for the 2 favorites.

How they can think that giving DK both major and minor heroism in one set is a good idea after the mess that was the oakensoul meta is beyond me.

The fact that sorc is begging for a complete rework to its entire class kit specifically to bring back the old no-pet builds that have not existed for 5+years now and all they gave it was a (extremely likely) very bad proc set that is worse than existing bad proc sets is another one... The only way this set would have helped sorc as a class is if the proc was completely overpowered which is not what the class needs or wants.

It's like they're not even trying to hide their bias anymore, its just buff after buff (or broken set) for DK, NB and recently arcanist (this gets a pass for now since its the newest class) who have been allowed to do anything and everything while the other classes get temporary buffs for a single patch at best or just flat out nerfed into oblivion at worst because they're "supposed to have weaknesses"...

I play a DK and while the set seemingly gives some love to DK, I can say it's probably not enough. Major Heroism could have come either as a mythic or as a monster mask, but on a 5 piece set is not enough. At least the buff is continuous, unlike on the Drake's Rush set. And there is a one piece gain - no need for Oakensoul. Yes, it leaves room for another mythic or a full monster mask to be used, but still, it's probably marginally efficient versus Heartland Conqueror with two-handed Decisive weapon.

This is the closest set in game currently to the new dk set. Major heroism is significantly stronger than 171 weapon damage.

Shalk Exoskeleton
2 items: Adds 28-1206 Maximum Health
3 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: Adds 3-171 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 items: Gain Minor Heroism at all times while you are in combat, generating 1 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds.

It really does crap all over shalk exo

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

I don't know how you can even compare either Basalt Warrior or Heartland Conqueror to Shalk Exoskeleton. Minor Heroism is 1 ulti/1.5 sec and it triggers 9 times during standard Magma, 12 times during extended magma (by Elf Bane). So it just gives 12 points at most, while Heartland can consolidate 2/sec (for general attacks buff and for Exhilarating Drain). and 1/1.5 sec (for Minor Heroism, doubling it up). However, half of what it consolidates is the statistic of what you can get by simply not using it and just leaving the Decisive work its magic on a two-handed weapon.

Looking post factum now, yes, Basalt Warrior it feels better than Heartland Conqueror, because I don't need Oakensoul for it - it already gives the Minor Heroism. Not needing Oakensoul gives the ability to bar swap and activate Potentates.

So, grosso modo, Basalt Warrior = Heartland + Oakensoul (ultimate wise). Result are on par with that combo. However now we can activate Potentates on bar swap and get a 15% rebate just to activate the ultimate.

I will have to test Potentates swap on a Basalt + Heartland, but the combo in itself is less effective than the starting build Heartland + Oakensoul + Elf Bane. Elf Bane simply gives a massive chunk of almost 30% reduction to the Ultimate/second equivalent cost of Magma and cannot be replaced by any other 5-piece set with the same performance.

ESO_Nightingale

I feel like the warden set is just misplaced and strange. why major maim? that seems more like a tanking debuff than anything i guess.

ESO_Nightingale

Cast_El wrote: »

How about doing the dk set a one piece bonus set?
Seriously 😒
Why everyone but the dev can see the problems.
Hope they will listen, already too much DK in PvP

i wonder if they'll change these from being 5 piece bonuses, because frankly it's just so boring, individual set tuning aside.

kyatos_binarini

DK: Oakensoul was OP because of ult gen on DKs? No problem, we will nerf Oakensoul and create DK only set with major/minor heroism
Sorc: just another pve set
NB: not bad, actually. May be there will be more ranged mNBs
Necro: minor resolve - not funny. minor protection - doesn't worth 5piece set. beautiful corpse - we need decent corpse consumer skills first.

silver1surfer69

this new dk class item set maybe will turn the current balance in pvp upside down. It may create a mess like the original oakensoul implementation back then. It was a sweet 1vx dream...

silver1surfer69

kyatos_binarini wrote: »

DK: Oakensoul was OP because of ult gen on DKs? No problem, we will nerf Oakensoul and create DK only set with major/minor heroism
Sorc: just another pve set
NB: not bad, actually. May be there will be more ranged mNBs
Necro: minor resolve - not funny. minor protection - doesn't worth 5piece set. beautiful corpse - we need decent corpse consumer skills first.

While reading the patch notes i had to laugh, the necro gets like poop and the dk major/minor heroism... The necros like slowly move towards being the minority everyone bashes on...
(and by the way oakewnsoul was op because of major force, but i know most ppl didnt realize this. I ran it on a dk...)

NuarBlack

kyatos_binarini wrote: »

DK: Oakensoul was OP because of ult gen on DKs? No problem, we will nerf Oakensoul and create DK only set with major/minor heroism
Sorc: just another pve set
NB: not bad, actually. May be there will be more ranged mNBs
Necro: minor resolve - not funny. minor protection - doesn't worth 5piece set. beautiful corpse - we need decent corpse consumer skills first.

Honestly I really like the idea at least behind the NB set. I really don't like the idea of the sets being BiS. I'd rather they make new or under utilized builds viable. They are all over the board here though.

CameraBeardThePirate

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

kyatos_binarini wrote: »

DK: Oakensoul was OP because of ult gen on DKs? No problem, we will nerf Oakensoul and create DK only set with major/minor heroism
Sorc: just another pve set
NB: not bad, actually. May be there will be more ranged mNBs
Necro: minor resolve - not funny. minor protection - doesn't worth 5piece set. beautiful corpse - we need decent corpse consumer skills first.

While reading the patch notes i had to laugh, the necro gets like poop and the dk major/minor heroism... The necros like slowly move towards being the minority everyone bashes on...
(and by the way oakewnsoul was op because of major force, but i know most ppl didnt realize this. I ran it on a dk...)

Slowly? Necro fell off a cliff after they gutted Graveyard

boi_anachronism_

I dont know how many times i have say this: people go on and on about how "op" blades are but literally they are dumpster in 12 man. Like 💯 useless. They are buffing them trying to find a way to fix that but because of the specific class style it is literally impossible to do without it being broken for pvp. Period. Dk gets buffed just to buff it, blades get buffed because they are hoping they will hit a middle ground somewhere eventually. Dk has NEVER had the same kind of nerfs as blades, they have been strong patch after patch. Go to elswyer patch notes and tell me blades werent nerfed into the ground. Before that it was actually broken in pvp lol. The buff to concealed gave them the first buff to make them mildly viable for pve in ages. The stupid thing they did was to have the buff be proced by sneak which was just a poor balance choice. Otherwise it was not a bad buff but nowhere near other classes for group. Lemme break it down for yah:

Dk pros: excellent in pvp, 4 man, 12 man and is the gold standard for tanks to the point it can solo tank any and all content. Amazing full damage in content dd and as support dd because it has excellent synergy with so many sets.

Dk cons: not great as a healer. Not great in arenas.

NB pros: excellent in pvp, good as a group healer, good in arenas, great for vas.

Cons: terrible dd in 12 man because of inconsistent damage, poor synergy with support sets, poor group buffs, poor tanking, marginal in 4 man, being replaced as a healer in 12 man by arc.

Yeah totally comparable 😑

Oh yeah- for new sets:

Dk: no downtside or trade off

NB: sacrifices Incap for proc