Why have so many veteran players left the game recently?

Braffin

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

...content difficulty was toned down repeatedly...

I find the exact opposite to be the case.

• World bosses have become increasingly more difficult.
• Dolmens were replaced with Geysers, Harrowstorms and Vents.
• DLC dungeons are longer and more difficult than base game dungeons.
• Story bosses are more difficult and have mechanics and invulnerable phases so the fights take longer.
• Bastion Nymics were introduced.

Sure, but the thing is: possible dps went from 15k to 140k in the same time. For anyone willing to update their build to modern standards, it's just a burn through the game.

SilverBride

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

...content difficulty was toned down repeatedly...

I find the exact opposite to be the case.

• World bosses have become increasingly more difficult.
• Dolmens were replaced with Geysers, Harrowstorms and Vents.
• DLC dungeons are longer and more difficult than base game dungeons.
• Story bosses are more difficult and have mechanics and invulnerable phases so the fights take longer.
• Bastion Nymics were introduced.

Sure, but the thing is: possible dps went from 15k to 140k in the same time. For anyone willing to update their build to modern standards, it's just a burn through the game.

I suspect that it's a small minority that are performing at 140k DPS.

Braffin

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

...content difficulty was toned down repeatedly...

I find the exact opposite to be the case.

• World bosses have become increasingly more difficult.
• Dolmens were replaced with Geysers, Harrowstorms and Vents.
• DLC dungeons are longer and more difficult than base game dungeons.
• Story bosses are more difficult and have mechanics and invulnerable phases so the fights take longer.
• Bastion Nymics were introduced.

Sure, but the thing is: possible dps went from 15k to 140k in the same time. For anyone willing to update their build to modern standards, it's just a burn through the game.

I suspect that it's a small minority that are performing at 140k DPS.

Sure, because people are leaving shortly after they developed their toons to do so due to lack of content. That's the topic of this thread after all.

An example: The newest trial was cleared on day 1 by craglorn pugs, the next will be published next summer.

What to do in the meantime for trial folks?

Expert

Following what Cloudrest said, is the exact reason why I myself don't play and tons of other of my long-time core friends in ESO.

It's part of why I can't stream consistently, since my last 300 mil PvP tournament on PC NA was a massive success, we all knew in our hearts this was going to be the last.

Constant continuation of procs, sustain, and heals raising the floor to match the ceiling as ZOS addressed years ago unfortunately poisoned all the fun that was left. Now I just see a unhealthy bunch of angry people who can't find their fix/fun so they take it against it's own playerbase with unhealthy amounts of toxicity. Leaves no place for streamers or friends to be made, I've lived through many MMO's to see that once PVP goes downhill , the game isn't entertaining so they look for that entertainment through drama. I will admit I did exactly this , teabagging everyday until I caught my perma ban.

PvP is stale, we lived a current meta of sustain and tankiness, and the release of Arcanist promoted EXACTLY THAT to a higher degree. There's no fun wasting all the time fighting tanks who achieve no goal, and even if I win fights I just don't feel the reward as I recognized it was moderately annoying to fight tanks stacking procs or lining up corrosive because a player is mentally incapatitated to expand beyond that in this meta.

ESO was a great game for the meantime, but with streaming, and being the magicka sorcerer 1vX main that I grew to be, I can't do that stuff anymore.

GG's

-Explanicide

SilverBride

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that it's a small minority that are performing at 140k DPS.

Sure, because people are leaving shortly after they developed their toons to do so due to lack of content. That's the topic of this thread after all.

An example: The newest trial was cleared on day 1 by craglorn pugs, the next will be published next summer.

What to do in the meantime for trial folks?

Players run trials multiple times to collect gear and earn achievements, and new members join the trial teams as time goes by, so they are not irrelevant after clearing once.

Also, there are many activities besides trials and end game to experience. If a player chooses to only be active in one aspect of the game then they will be disappointed.

Ingenon

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

...content difficulty was toned down repeatedly...

I find the exact opposite to be the case.

• World bosses have become increasingly more difficult.
• Dolmens were replaced with Geysers, Harrowstorms and Vents.
• DLC dungeons are longer and more difficult than base game dungeons.
• Story bosses are more difficult and have mechanics and invulnerable phases so the fights take longer.
• Bastion Nymics were introduced.

^ This.

I solo'ed a dolmen with a level 4 arcanist using Forgotten Adventurer gear. No way I could solo a Geyser or Harrowstorm with a level 4 wearing starter gear.

Braffin

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that it's a small minority that are performing at 140k DPS.

Sure, because people are leaving shortly after they developed their toons to do so due to lack of content. That's the topic of this thread after all.

An example: The newest trial was cleared on day 1 by craglorn pugs, the next will be published next summer.

What to do in the meantime for trial folks?

Players run trials multiple times to collect gear and earn achievements, and new members join the trial teams as time goes by, so they are not irrelevant after clearing once.

Also, there are many activities besides trials and end game to experience. If a player chooses to only be active in one aspect of the game then they will be disappointed.

Do you do trials on regular base? I do and can tell you, they get boring rather quick atm.

I share your opinion about different aspects of the game partially tho. It's of course more fun to participate in more than just endgame.

But my point is about endgame itself: It simply isn't was it used to be a few years ago. You listed overland activities and dungeons as example for more difficult content and that rightfully. The mechanics got indeed more engaging in this more casual content. At the same time, more and more mechanics in endgame got meaningless due to power creep.

SilverBride

Braffin wrote: »

Do you do trials on regular base? I do and can tell you, they get boring rather quick atm.

I don't do trials, mainly because I don't want to be tied down to a schedule and spend that much time in one sitting on one activity.

I do run veteran dungeons and have delved into veteran arenas, although in general I find arenas very tedious because of how long they take to complete.

I_killed_Vivec

Just to throw a grenade into the conversation...

If you put aside individual egos for a while, does it really matter if "veteran" players are leaving?

Warhawke_80

Not specific to ESO...but

I have learned through the years that Raids/Trials or whatever you want to call them, are the most expensive content to create for developers...now if what my developer friend told me was true and just a few percent of players play end game/Veteran content...it probably isn't cost effective to Mirror Blizzard and put the vast majority of your resources into that kind of stuff...especially considering the vast differences in Business' models.

Personally I want all playstyles happy, but you really do have to pick and choose when you have a limited Budget which I'm betting ESO has given they (Zenimax) are also making a new MMO (Which I hope is a Starfield MMO) Anyway most Raiders I know in all MMO's usually beats the current content....finds other Raids in other games and returns when their are new challenges...it dosen't mean the game is dead, Casuals make sure of that.

It's the whole circle of life thing, and when you look at it like that I just don't see how you can get upset.

thorwyn

If you put aside individual egos for a while, does it really matter if "veteran" players are leaving?

Depends on your playstyle I guess. For those people who are happy with playing the story lines and everything, it probably doesn't matter. For those people who want to go a bit further, less sources of information means more frustration. ESO is not known to be a self explaining game. There is a lot of stuff that new players are struggling with, especially when it comes to their first steps into harder content. I would probably not have made it as far as I have if it wasn't for some experienced players who dedicated their spare time running practice raids, explaining mechanics and everything you need to know. And in turn, I have spent many hours of my own time helping new players gettin into trials.

Stamicka

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Just to throw a grenade into the conversation...

If you put aside individual egos for a while, does it really matter if "veteran" players are leaving?

Does it matter for who?

For Zenimax? Probably doesn't matter, they have a money machine at this point and it doesn't depend on the Veteran players. As long as crown crate buyers, new players, and the housing crowd stick around, the game will be fine financially.

For the actual players? Of course it matters. ESO was my favorite way to spend my free time for a few years. I haven't found a different game to replace it yet. I've made a lot of friends on the game over the years as well, it's sad to see them go. Remember, these are real people you are connecting with. For new players who don't see themselves as casual, they won't have much of a community to go since most vets are gone. You have to understand that ZOS basically outcasted an entire demographic of players. Lots of people lost good friendships and their favorite hobby. it sucks.

Esha76

TL;DR: The topic of the thread is an invalid statement as no one outside of ZOS has accurate numbers as to who is coming and going from the game. However, I too have noticed a lot of people from the beginning have left, by evidence of the many guilds I have been in since beta that have fallen apart due to people leaving and not returning to the game.


Due to the amount of time I have invested in this game (since very early beta) one could classify me as a "veteran". On the other hand I have done as little group content as possible for a variety of reasons. So maybe I am not the demographic the topic of the thread pertains to.

One cannot simply make a generalized statement about numbers of people leaving the game (especially that of specifics such as vets or newcomers, etc.) based upon data such as Steam's graphs, or that fact "I haven't seen my friend(s) online in X amount of time." Your experience or perception does not equal cold hard facts and numbers. Only ZOS really knows who's coming or going on a regular basis, and they will never release those numbers.

However, that being said, almost everyone I knew from "back-in-the-day" is gone. I have been part of several guilds over the years that fell apart from people leaving the game each time. I mean... I have people on my friends list who haven't logged on in over 5 years...

So, just because Steam's graph shows some data from a very select period of time, in addition to many of our experiences of watching people not return to the game.... It does not conclude that people are leaving. But does give cause for concern and reason to look into what is actually going on. Again, only ZOS can answer that. Unless they do, all we can do here is speculate and talk about our personal experiences and observations.

Now, as for me, I put in very little time these days. I still log in almost everyday because I get some sort of feeling of accomplishment from the pittance of Seals of Endeavors I can get each day.... As stated, I have been here since very early beta. A lot of the "Vets" from back then... how long has that been? Game is rapidly coming up to 10 years old. Not only do people get tired of the same format year in and year out, but life changes happen. Some of these "Vets" probably have a lot less time to devote to video games in general, or maybe moved onto other things.

As for the game, (from my perspective), again I was never interested in group content. Nor do I complain when they release more of that. But the yearly format of ESO has gotten beyond stale. Hence why they have started to change that up. I'll take a moment now to state I am in no way interested or looking forward to this endless dungeon coming out soon... but I imagine many people are. In short, the game just offers less that I am interested in these days, it's gotten stale for me, and I have just moved onto other things.

So, I believe: Yes, a lot of "Vets" have left the game. But I don't have any valid data to prove or disprove that.

Stamicka

Esha76 wrote: »

So, just because Steam's graph shows some data from a very select period of time, in addition to many of our experiences of watching people not return to the game.... It does not conclude that people are leaving. But does give cause for concern and reason to look into what is actually going on. Again, only ZOS can answer that. Unless they do, all we can do here is speculate and talk about our personal experiences and observations.

I disagree, there are many indicators outside of "hard data" to answer whether or not veteran players are leaving. First, the forums reflect this. There is way less activity in the PvP sections of the forums and even in the combat/PvE section.

You can look at: leaderboards, queue times, Cyrodiil populations, ESOlogs, large discords, and more. Every single one of those things is seeing less activity than before. If you are apart of the veteran community, it is very easy to see how things are changing. You don't need the exact numbers to see it.

markulrich1966

Mirri just nailed it *lol

Waiting at Xeemhok Worldbodss for other players since 38 minutes...

Mirri Elendis says: "if we're just going to wait around, let's play a game or something."

SilverBride

markulrich1966 wrote: »

Mirri just nailed it *lol

Waiting at Xeemhok Worldbodss for other players since 38 minutes...

Mirri Elendis says: "if we're just going to wait around, let's play a game or something."

That isn't happening because Vets left the game. That is happening because it's older content and less players are now doing these since new content came along. This is why older content World Bosses and Harrowstorms etc. should scale to the number of players, so those still doing them are able to with a smaller group.

Dojohoda

I'm not inclined to play other games unless it is a different elderscrolls or a fallout game and so, I am still here, playing or something. I do get a little bored between chapters. At that point, I switch things up a bit. I am currently tanking for pug groups in normal dungeons for the stickerbook and working toward a couple of pvp achievements that were added last year. Dear guildies, I promise I'm not a traitor if you see me on another alliance in cyrodiil in the list of onliners.

Warhawke_80

Dojohoda wrote: »

I'm not inclined to play other games unless it is a different elderscrolls or a fallout game and so, I am still here, playing or something. I do get a little bored between chapters. At that point, I switch things up a bit. I am currently tanking for pug groups in normal dungeons for the stickerbook and working toward a couple of pvp achievements that were added last year. Dear guildies, I promise I'm not a traitor if you see me on another alliance in cyrodiil in the list of onliners.

Wow...you are really missing out on some great games...It's sad that you limit yourself so, Brand loyalty is great...but I had so much fun playing Elden Ring for example...I would have to have missed that experience.

Dojohoda

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

I'm not inclined to play other games unless it is a different elderscrolls or a fallout game and so, I am still here, playing or something. I do get a little bored between chapters. At that point, I switch things up a bit. I am currently tanking for pug groups in normal dungeons for the stickerbook and working toward a couple of pvp achievements that were added last year. Dear guildies, I promise I'm not a traitor if you see me on another alliance in cyrodiil in the list of onliners.

Wow...you are really missing out on some great games...It's sad that you limit yourself so, Brand loyalty is great...but I had so much fun playing Elden Ring for example...I would have to have missed that experience.

It's not brand loyalty per se, the brand is a coincidence (but I did find the elderscroll appealing). My children introduced me to elderscrolls and fallout a long time ago. It is more of a situation that I do other things like vegetable gardening, for instance, that I enjoy a lot and I have no interest in upcoming games.

TaSheen

Dojohoda wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

I'm not inclined to play other games unless it is a different elderscrolls or a fallout game and so, I am still here, playing or something. I do get a little bored between chapters. At that point, I switch things up a bit. I am currently tanking for pug groups in normal dungeons for the stickerbook and working toward a couple of pvp achievements that were added last year. Dear guildies, I promise I'm not a traitor if you see me on another alliance in cyrodiil in the list of onliners.

Wow...you are really missing out on some great games...It's sad that you limit yourself so, Brand loyalty is great...but I had so much fun playing Elden Ring for example...I would have to have missed that experience.

It's not brand loyalty per se, the brand is a coincidence (but I did find the elderscroll appealing). My children introduced me to elderscrolls and fallout a long time ago. It is more of a situation that I do other things like vegetable gardening, for instance, that I enjoy a lot and I have no interest in upcoming games.

Yeah. For me it's a combination: it IS brand loyalty - I moved from the Forgotten Realms to TES when Arena released (and it's doubtful I'll bother with BG3); and it's also that at this point in my life (mid 70s) the newer games really have no appeal for me. Familiarity in my case does not "breed contempt" - it gives me a home I hope never dies. I'm not sure I'll still be playing games if/when TES VI releases....

Along with playing games, I'm caring for a nearly 90 year old husband, doing all the driving for doctors' appts, groceries, getting the SUV serviced etc - and I'm also the one who hikes the groceries up a steep hill a hundred feet or so to the basement.

I really need my TES fix some days....

Adaarye

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

BG3...

Just wait till Starfield launches...

Interesting to see what impact that has.

X 10

There are so many games I can play that lack the ping pong nerf/buff/nerf/buff/nerf. This latest nerf has pretty much killed the game for me other than housing. I am more disgusted with the state of the game than I have been since beta.

The pen nerf broke my heart. And now the HA nerf is breaking my heart again and killing my love for the game.

I am sick of and bored with healing. I did make a tank. We'll see how that goes. LA builds are and have always been off the table for me due to physical limitations.

So what I have left is ESO Medieval Sims Online . ESO Housing is still unique and better than most other MMORPG's imo.

I do my endeavors and my writs then I'm off to BG3. I've done this daily, other than attending a couple of guild events a week, since the HA nerf appeared on PTS.

I do look forward to Star Field. I preordered it as soon as it hit Steam. We'll see what path ZoS takes with it. I hope it will be co-op at some point.

SaffronCitrusflower

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Just to throw a grenade into the conversation...

If you put aside individual egos for a while, does it really matter if "veteran" players are leaving?

yes, it matters a great deal when the people who know the most about the game get so fed up they quit playing. It's shockingly naive to think otherwise. There is a reason virtually nobody is doing trifectas and end game PvE now days. And PvP has been neglected and downsized for five years or more.

It absolutely does matter when the best players leave the game. This is an MMO and player retention matters far more than ZOS bean counters think they do.

Warhawke_80

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Just to throw a grenade into the conversation...

If you put aside individual egos for a while, does it really matter if "veteran" players are leaving?

yes, it matters a great deal when the people who know the most about the game get so fed up they quit playing. It's shockingly naive to think otherwise. There is a reason virtually nobody is doing trifectas and end game PvE now days. And PvP has been neglected and downsized for five years or more.

It absolutely does matter when the best players leave the game. This is an MMO and player retention matters far more than ZOS bean counters think they do.

I would like to think that if a demographic that could diametrically effect the games financial health was indeed disappearing then the devs would do something to right the ship...Zenimax seems to have a really stable Business' model so I don't think they would do anything to Jeopardize that.

I still have to wait in a queue most nights, Wayrest/Daggerfall is still slammed Our Trading/Social guild is expanding...I just don't think the sky is falling...we did lose three people, but they thought that Vet Trials should be the main focus...and ESO has really never been that type of game...I mean as far as I've been told.

I hate to see folks this upset...but, I really do think everything will work out in the end.

Kappachi

Zastrix wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Where is the proof that a lot of veteran players left the game?

Not being able to fill pugs for trials, not being able to fill pugs for dungeons, barely being able to fill rosters for vet guild runs, root having issue with filling roster for running trials?

I've personally taken a pause off of ESO because of the anti-QoL changes, additional nerfs to nightblades in PvE whilst being the weakest class and DEFINITELY the aggressive gambling requirement in the stores.

Blue Protocol in Japan is a new MMORPG which is basically DOA because all of the good items are hidden behind gatcha boxes... Rings a bell for a different game?

if i press search for random vet dungeon, i get one in a reasonable amount of time, sometimes instant on any class, even DPS... not being able to fill pugs? maybe people realize pugs are no different than random groups and that it's better to queue than sit somewhere and ask for a group for an hour.

Dr_Con

these posts are always fun

Bucky_13

Main reason: The complete negligence of Cyrodiil, it was by far the most fun end game activity for me and since nothing ever changes there except for new sets and class balancing, both which are hit and miss, it just got boring. That they still barely balance PvP and PvE separately doesn't help either. That we rarely have locked pops on the no CP campaign in prime time anymore on PC EU makes it even less fun.

Second reason: Expansions just feels like copy/paste, same amount of delves, skyshards, dolmen replacement etc. The expansions just don't feel exciting anymore since you exactly what you will get.

flubber77

Cant answer for other than my self and i was gone for almost 3 year before i got back right before Arcanist release. I did find it to laggy when i left for pvp and did start up again with quest for new zone then into pvp again witch was better for some reason, not sure if it was my upgrade in pc or they did fix something but i see less people in pvp so that might be the case.
I guess im gone again soon since the cost of anythin is skyhigh now.

PC EU.

pklemming

U35...

They then 'doubled-down' on changes we did not want. Did not listen to PTS. Attempt to promote sales of a new class through unrequested nerfs of other classes.

I am still sore about stranglers too, even after this time. The new passive changes were pointless, apart from making arcanists more of a focus than they were. No worries, 6-9 months from now, they will nerf those too, when they become 'unbalanced'.

If they kept a happier player base, they would have had more people and a higher overall income.

So many requests not to change templar animations at the time, and many changes since. Nope, doesn't matter what the player base wants, ZoS knows better. Fun does not exist here.

Anyone remember the ... We are not going to make any more major changes.... announcement.

Destruction staff passives are a minor thing.

Now they are looing at removing PTE after how long in game?

It is almost as though they hate the players.

Lylith

i judge the state of the game by my friends list and guild lists.

i've been here since beta and less than ten of my friends remain.

half of them only log on sporadically when there's a new chapter.

guild chat is minimal, at best.

new players may be fueling the game but, in my experience, a LOT of the old school folks are gone.

even in cyrodil, only a couple of the people i started with are still there.

DemonicGoat

Cloudrest wrote: »

Sounds fun, right? I think the game is at a point where people are finally realizing what's been happening for the past few years. There's so much resentment and barely-restrained anger present throughout the community at the state of the game; from the PvP meta, from the recent fiasco with gifting Crown Crates, endless empty promises that are never upheld, predatory marketing, people's favorite classes being ruined, contradictory communication from Zenimax when addressing community concern and outrage, and a seeming lack of understanding/care from Zenimax themselves towards what players want, ON TOP of unfairly banning a bunch of innocent people who didn't even know they were exploiting something that Zenimax themselves broke, whilst telling them that "they'll be allowed to continue playing" instead of apologizing for the mistake. This absolutely FLOORED me.

@ZOS_Kevin did good at trying to communicate for a long time. I appreciate his efforts, I really do. But nothing has changed. Players still aren't being heard. Zenimax still isn't communicating, and I really doubt we'll hear much more on the code rewrite announced several years prior that's gatekeeping any new PvP content from being added to the game until they inevitably announce that they're cancelling it for unforeseen issues/complexities.

Expert wrote: »

Now I just see a unhealthy bunch of angry people who can't find their fix/fun so they take it against it's own playerbase with unhealthy amounts of toxicity. Leaves no place for streamers or friends to be made, I've lived through many MMO's to see that once PVP goes downhill , the game isn't entertaining so they look for that entertainment through drama. I will admit I did exactly this , teabagging everyday until I caught my perma ban.
-Explanicide

I play ESO for 2 reasons,.. The first is it makes a good RP server and the second Meme runs. Why meme runs?
1. "resentment and barely-restrained anger present throughout the community at the state of the game"
2. "the game isn't entertaining so they look for that entertainment through drama"

If ZOS doesnt care about the players and their concerns why would I as a player have any motivation to promote
any goodwill in the game? I can solo most content and speedrunning content is basically what I grind on to the detriment of all those around me. [snip]

[edited for bashing]