procs nerfed when?

TechMaybeHic

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

It seems to me like this is just a trickery of math. And to be clear-- I DON'T mean that you're trying to trick anybody, and I don't mean your math is wrong. I just think percentages are a bad way to compare.

Except that it's not a trickery of math. Percentages are a great way to compare if a debuff/buff or a change is good. For example when ZOS increased the healing received penalty through battle Spirit from 50% to 55%, it looks like a 5% change. However, it's actually a 10% change because a 10k heal with 55% penalty would now heal for only 4.5k instead of 5k. That 500 healing loss is a 10% loss.

Similarly, 10% HP debuff from Minor Mangle take away more HP from a 45k HP player than a 25k HP one, but given the same burst damage taken value, the 45K HP player still experiences a lower HP loss with Minor Mangle applied.

OBJnoob wrote: »

The target who had 35k HP now has 31.5k. Minor mangle stole 3.5k from them. The target who had 25k HP now has 22.5k, having lost 2.5k. Minor mangle effected the player with more HP the most. Whatever percentage of their health is taken by a subsequent burst is irrelevant, because we're no longer talking about mangle, and also because it's a mathematical given that the 10k burst will become a greater and greater percentage of ones overall health as that health becomes smaller and smaller. But the mangle never changed value nor became responsible for the burst.

Except that the % of their health taken by a subsequent burst is relevant, because that's how you bring someone closer to death.

It doesn't matter if the higher HP player lost more from Minor Mangle. He still has a higher base HP, and thus will be less close to death than the one with low HP. A 35k HP player losing 3.5k HP and taking a 10k burst is not going to be closer to death than a 25k HP player losing 2.5k HP and taking the same burst.

OBJnoob wrote: »

Now there ARE some other factors to consider, about when a person might enter execute range with their diminished HP, or when Undeath might amount to something meaningful (you'll notice these two points off-set,) but I think this is fairly negligible.

This is why I said the 25k HP experiences a 4.44% increase in HP loss compared to a 3.18% increase for the 35k HP player if we use the same burst value for both. When you have more HP to lose from, you are more protected from being closer to death.

OBJnoob wrote: »

If I hit someone for 10k and they only had 20 then I just did half of their health. If they had 40 then I only did 25%. Does this mean my burst somehow hit the lesser HP guy twice as hard? Obviously not.

It's not hitting the lesser HP guy twice as hard, but it's bringing him closer to death than the 40k HP guy. Apply Minor Mangle on both players, and the lesser HP guy is at MORE risk of being killed than the higher HP guy.

Giving debuffs to counter specific builds hurts the builds it's not intended to counter more. This has been historically proven lol. Major + Minor Defile hurting builds with less healing than builds with more. Think about it. If you have 4 healing abilities on your bar and you're defiled by 50%, you are still better off compared to a dude with only 2 healing abilities on his bar and also defiled by 50%. The same logic applies to high HP players vs low HP ones affected by Minor Mangle.

So the solution isn't to introduce some debuff to counter some build. The solution is to put a cap to the offending builds. Too much HP? Put an HP cap. Too much healing? Limit the amount of heals someone can stack. Too much crit damage? Put a crit dmg cap.

You're end result is a product of having the lower health pool to begin with. Not from mangle. 10% of 35k is > 10% of 25k no matter how you slice it.

Besides that; mangle takes off max health so if the target is not max health to start, the actual damage is kind of mute. What I personally like it for is when the target recovers from mangle, it puts their remaining health at a lower percentage of max and therefore better toward execution range modifiers.

Otherwise; I agree they need to address the issues directly. Start running out of slots of abilities to just counter while doing nothing else; or too many different sets of gear, or too often the answer is "just run away" when they could just make things better balanced and actually fun to play

StaticWave

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

It seems to me like this is just a trickery of math. And to be clear-- I DON'T mean that you're trying to trick anybody, and I don't mean your math is wrong. I just think percentages are a bad way to compare.

Except that it's not a trickery of math. Percentages are a great way to compare if a debuff/buff or a change is good. For example when ZOS increased the healing received penalty through battle Spirit from 50% to 55%, it looks like a 5% change. However, it's actually a 10% change because a 10k heal with 55% penalty would now heal for only 4.5k instead of 5k. That 500 healing loss is a 10% loss.

Similarly, 10% HP debuff from Minor Mangle take away more HP from a 45k HP player than a 25k HP one, but given the same burst damage taken value, the 45K HP player still experiences a lower HP loss with Minor Mangle applied.

OBJnoob wrote: »

The target who had 35k HP now has 31.5k. Minor mangle stole 3.5k from them. The target who had 25k HP now has 22.5k, having lost 2.5k. Minor mangle effected the player with more HP the most. Whatever percentage of their health is taken by a subsequent burst is irrelevant, because we're no longer talking about mangle, and also because it's a mathematical given that the 10k burst will become a greater and greater percentage of ones overall health as that health becomes smaller and smaller. But the mangle never changed value nor became responsible for the burst.

Except that the % of their health taken by a subsequent burst is relevant, because that's how you bring someone closer to death.

It doesn't matter if the higher HP player lost more from Minor Mangle. He still has a higher base HP, and thus will be less close to death than the one with low HP. A 35k HP player losing 3.5k HP and taking a 10k burst is not going to be closer to death than a 25k HP player losing 2.5k HP and taking the same burst.

OBJnoob wrote: »

Now there ARE some other factors to consider, about when a person might enter execute range with their diminished HP, or when Undeath might amount to something meaningful (you'll notice these two points off-set,) but I think this is fairly negligible.

This is why I said the 25k HP experiences a 4.44% increase in HP loss compared to a 3.18% increase for the 35k HP player if we use the same burst value for both. When you have more HP to lose from, you are more protected from being closer to death.

OBJnoob wrote: »

If I hit someone for 10k and they only had 20 then I just did half of their health. If they had 40 then I only did 25%. Does this mean my burst somehow hit the lesser HP guy twice as hard? Obviously not.

It's not hitting the lesser HP guy twice as hard, but it's bringing him closer to death than the 40k HP guy. Apply Minor Mangle on both players, and the lesser HP guy is at MORE risk of being killed than the higher HP guy.

Giving debuffs to counter specific builds hurts the builds it's not intended to counter more. This has been historically proven lol. Major + Minor Defile hurting builds with less healing than builds with more. Think about it. If you have 4 healing abilities on your bar and you're defiled by 50%, you are still better off compared to a dude with only 2 healing abilities on his bar and also defiled by 50%. The same logic applies to high HP players vs low HP ones affected by Minor Mangle.

So the solution isn't to introduce some debuff to counter some build. The solution is to put a cap to the offending builds. Too much HP? Put an HP cap. Too much healing? Limit the amount of heals someone can stack. Too much crit damage? Put a crit dmg cap.

You're end result is a product of having the lower health pool to begin with. Not from mangle. 10% of 35k is > 10% of 25k no matter how you slice it.

Besides that; mangle takes off max health so if the target is not max health to start, the actual damage is kind of mute. What I personally like it for is when the target recovers from mangle, it puts their remaining health at a lower percentage of max and therefore better toward execution range modifiers.

Otherwise; I agree they need to address the issues directly. Start running out of slots of abilities to just counter while doing nothing else; or too many different sets of gear, or too often the answer is "just run away" when they could just make things better balanced and actually fun to play

My point is that Minor Mangle hurts builds that don’t stack high HP more than builds that do. The actual HP value reduced by Mangle is irrelevant.

When I only have 25k HP, any HP reduction is going to hurt me more than someone with 35k HP who has a lot more HP to spare. This is especially important if you’re trying to get as much HP as possible for a big burst cushion. The more HP you have, the more protected you are from being one or two-shotted.

This is not to say that Minor Mangle doesn’t hurt high HP builds. I simply don’t think they are affected as much as people think.

OBJnoob

I agree that mangle doesn't hurt max HP builds as much as people think. But I still disagree that it effects people with less HP more.

In essence it doesn't 'hurt' anybody at all, but yes it does lower the threshold for when you'll need to perform certain actions like blocking or healing. Which can ultimately have an effect on your offensive windows and all that. And yes, if you already had low-ish HP, then the windows for operating may become so small that you feel disproportionately disadvantaged.

But I submit to you that this is their own fault/choice, and either they just aren't smart enough to get more HP or they're intentionally without it. They may be intentionally without it because they know they can just cloak away. They may be intentionally without it because, as a full damage build, they rely on amazing heals. Or they may be intentionally without it because their playstyle is to bombard with pressure and never really go defensive.

Mangle doesn't make someone unable to cloak. Mangle doesn't make someone unable to streak. Mangle doesn't give a damage build less healing or damage.

A max HP build may find their healing and damage diminished from mangle, as well as 10% of their health gone. And this is one reason why I do not believe mangle effects lower HP toons more.

Also... Mangle has been in the game for a long time. I remember running a lightning staff magden back in the day with pulsar. I'm not sure how long ago this was but... 3 years or so? Far longer than people have been walking around with 35k+ HP. Just because someone, now, says that mangle is a counter to max HP builds does not mean that is why it was put in the game. It's just another mechanic. Just another debuff.

Going back briefly to the first topic... It is true that people with more HP have more wiggle room for stuff. Someone with low HP, these days, either doesn't know what they're doing or knows exactly what they're doing. I submit to you that, mangled or not, it is their choice and their style that has fixed them with less wiggle room.

There are 3 ways to look at it. Static-- your way is obviously one. Or I could say mangle does 10% therefore it's equally detrimental. Or I could say well 3.5 is bigger than 2.5 so obviously mangle effects large HP amounts more greatly. It's really just a matter of perspective and is dependant upon other contributing factors.

Miracle19

just outheal the procs

Rhaegar75

Miracle19 wrote: »

just outheal the procs

Of course but your damage will also suffer unless you also use procs for their ‘free damage’: a catch 22 really

IncultaWolf

I just slot hexproof on my necro and I never have to deal with masters/vate anymore. SO satisfying seeing someone put the vateshran tether on me, then it immediately going away after I push the button

LittlePinkDot

SandandStars wrote: »

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

xDeusEJRx

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Engine guardian is pretty bad. Anything that body blocks in pvp is a pain because targeting can become bad when there's a bunch of targets cluttered up, so it makes it infinitely harder to target, that plus it's another save you from death set because of both the damage it can absorb and the fact it can heal you.

People complain about how strong line of sighting can be at avoiding damage, but engine guardian is literally like creating your own barrier. Same as any other pet out there. It's pretty much a wall because hitting it is completely useless as it will disappear in time so it's no better than spamming spells at a wall. Being able to absorb incoming ultimates is a massive boon, you can't even deny that.

The only time damaging it is worth it is if it's an interrupt spell like crushing shock, deep breath, etc.

Ultimately EG is a great "save yourself from dying" set as well as a tool to avoid taking damage.

LittlePinkDot

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Engine guardian is pretty bad. Anything that body blocks in pvp is a pain because targeting can become bad when there's a bunch of targets cluttered up, so it makes it infinitely harder to target, that plus it's another save you from death set because of both the damage it can absorb and the fact it can heal you.

People complain about how strong line of sighting can be at avoiding damage, but engine guardian is literally like creating your own barrier. Same as any other pet out there. It's pretty much a wall because hitting it is completely useless as it will disappear in time so it's no better than spamming spells at a wall. Being able to absorb incoming ultimates is a massive boon, you can't even deny that.

The only time damaging it is worth it is if it's an interrupt spell like crushing shock, deep breath, etc.

Ultimately EG is a great "save yourself from dying" set as well as a tool to avoid taking damage.

Honestly the only reason I ever used Engine Guardian is because I'm solo and suck at PVE so only easy to get monster sets are the ones I can obtain from pugs.

Other than that I need to wait for Golden Vendor. Still don't have Balorgh yet, missed the last time it was at the golden.

Can't say I ever noticed EG saving my ass though. I still prefer Bloodspawn.

Twohothardware

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Engine guardian is pretty bad. Anything that body blocks in pvp is a pain because targeting can become bad when there's a bunch of targets cluttered up, so it makes it infinitely harder to target, that plus it's another save you from death set because of both the damage it can absorb and the fact it can heal you.

People complain about how strong line of sighting can be at avoiding damage, but engine guardian is literally like creating your own barrier. Same as any other pet out there. It's pretty much a wall because hitting it is completely useless as it will disappear in time so it's no better than spamming spells at a wall. Being able to absorb incoming ultimates is a massive boon, you can't even deny that.

The only time damaging it is worth it is if it's an interrupt spell like crushing shock, deep breath, etc.

Ultimately EG is a great "save yourself from dying" set as well as a tool to avoid taking damage.

Engine guardian is the only monster set in the game that I've ever legit hated and hoped was nerfed lol.

xDeusEJRx

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Engine guardian is pretty bad. Anything that body blocks in pvp is a pain because targeting can become bad when there's a bunch of targets cluttered up, so it makes it infinitely harder to target, that plus it's another save you from death set because of both the damage it can absorb and the fact it can heal you.

People complain about how strong line of sighting can be at avoiding damage, but engine guardian is literally like creating your own barrier. Same as any other pet out there. It's pretty much a wall because hitting it is completely useless as it will disappear in time so it's no better than spamming spells at a wall. Being able to absorb incoming ultimates is a massive boon, you can't even deny that.

The only time damaging it is worth it is if it's an interrupt spell like crushing shock, deep breath, etc.

Ultimately EG is a great "save yourself from dying" set as well as a tool to avoid taking damage.

Honestly the only reason I ever used Engine Guardian is because I'm solo and suck at PVE so only easy to get monster sets are the ones I can obtain from pugs.

Other than that I need to wait for Golden Vendor. Still don't have Balorgh yet, missed the last time it was at the golden.

Can't say I ever noticed EG saving my ass though. I still prefer Bloodspawn.

If you're a kiter, which a lot of EG users are, then it can and will save you from dying. Kiting is already good for evading damage(because you can't die if you don't get hit), EG is a bullet sponge and a healer all at once. That alone is why it's a save you from dying set.

LittlePinkDot

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Engine guardian is pretty bad. Anything that body blocks in pvp is a pain because targeting can become bad when there's a bunch of targets cluttered up, so it makes it infinitely harder to target, that plus it's another save you from death set because of both the damage it can absorb and the fact it can heal you.

People complain about how strong line of sighting can be at avoiding damage, but engine guardian is literally like creating your own barrier. Same as any other pet out there. It's pretty much a wall because hitting it is completely useless as it will disappear in time so it's no better than spamming spells at a wall. Being able to absorb incoming ultimates is a massive boon, you can't even deny that.

The only time damaging it is worth it is if it's an interrupt spell like crushing shock, deep breath, etc.

Ultimately EG is a great "save yourself from dying" set as well as a tool to avoid taking damage.

Honestly the only reason I ever used Engine Guardian is because I'm solo and suck at PVE so only easy to get monster sets are the ones I can obtain from pugs.

Other than that I need to wait for Golden Vendor. Still don't have Balorgh yet, missed the last time it was at the golden.

Can't say I ever noticed EG saving my ass though. I still prefer Bloodspawn.

If you're a kiter, which a lot of EG users are, then it can and will save you from dying. Kiting is already good for evading damage(because you can't die if you don't get hit), EG is a bullet sponge and a healer all at once. That alone is why it's a save you from dying set.

There's other healing monster sets. That being said you don't get to choose which resource it restores. I wanted magicka when it gave me stamina for example.
It's not that great of a set to me. I much rather have balorgh.

There's many ways people avoid damage. EG isn't the end all and be all of it.

All the fuss about it sounds like a nothing burger of people whining about being inconvenienced.
Nerfing EG isn't going to do anything about the tank meta or masters dual wield/vateshran frost staff.
Out of all the things you could say is wrong with PvP, EG would be far down the list of problems.

It sounds to me like the Undeath passive is a far bigger problem.

xDeusEJRx

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Engine guardian is pretty bad. Anything that body blocks in pvp is a pain because targeting can become bad when there's a bunch of targets cluttered up, so it makes it infinitely harder to target, that plus it's another save you from death set because of both the damage it can absorb and the fact it can heal you.

People complain about how strong line of sighting can be at avoiding damage, but engine guardian is literally like creating your own barrier. Same as any other pet out there. It's pretty much a wall because hitting it is completely useless as it will disappear in time so it's no better than spamming spells at a wall. Being able to absorb incoming ultimates is a massive boon, you can't even deny that.

The only time damaging it is worth it is if it's an interrupt spell like crushing shock, deep breath, etc.

Ultimately EG is a great "save yourself from dying" set as well as a tool to avoid taking damage.

Honestly the only reason I ever used Engine Guardian is because I'm solo and suck at PVE so only easy to get monster sets are the ones I can obtain from pugs.

Other than that I need to wait for Golden Vendor. Still don't have Balorgh yet, missed the last time it was at the golden.

Can't say I ever noticed EG saving my ass though. I still prefer Bloodspawn.

If you're a kiter, which a lot of EG users are, then it can and will save you from dying. Kiting is already good for evading damage(because you can't die if you don't get hit), EG is a bullet sponge and a healer all at once. That alone is why it's a save you from dying set.

There's other healing monster sets. That being said you don't get to choose which resource it restores. I wanted magicka when it gave me stamina for example.
It's not that great of a set to me. I much rather have balorgh.

There's many ways people avoid damage. EG isn't the end all and be all of it.

All the fuss about it sounds like a nothing burger of people whining about being inconvenienced.
Nerfing EG isn't going to do anything about the tank meta or masters dual wield/vateshran frost staff.
Out of all the things you could say is wrong with PvP, EG would be far down the list of problems.

It sounds to me like the Undeath passive is a far bigger problem.

You're jumping the gun here, I never said half of what you're saying here about EG. You asked "what's the big deal about EG" and I explained why people dislike the set. That's all that happened there.

Now personally I dislike EG too because I hate most sets that are crutch sets, and this one is a huge crutch for players that use it. But I never once made much of a fuss nor did I ask to "nerf EG" like you mentioned nor did I say it's ruining PVP.

The entire point of me bringing it up is to explain to you why people make a fuss over it. It's a living bullet sponge and a free healer all at once, which is a good crutch set for players who need it.

OBJnoob

I wholeheartedly agree that EG is an attack absorbing nuisance. I don't see that tactic used as much anymore, so someone that's only played for like 2 years might not really get it. But those of us who played through the PvP zoosorc days will probably always hate it.

The thing is... No, you can't pick which resource it gives you when. It IS a good sustain set, but the unpredictability of it kinda makes the bullet sponge the MAIN use.

I will admit my aim isn't always the best... Some people might find EG less annoying than I do. But the way it moves-- just following whoever has it-- if they decide to run away from you it just puts the EG right in your crosshairs and it's almost impossible NOT to hit it.

Thank God I don't see it much anymore.

StarOfElyon

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Lies. **** lies.

A player can hide behind the Engine Guardian to avoid damage or make you spend precious seconds trying to "aim better", allowing them to get a clutch heal off and bounce back from the verge of death.

TechMaybeHic

Anyway; back to the meat of the topic. Saw a lot tonight of just turtled up players with vate staff barely hitting for anything individually; but not dieing and stacking about 6 together at any one time.

xDeusEJRx

Procs, especially the most popular ones like Maw, Vateshran/Masters setup, Azureblight and Maarselok are taking over primarily because hybridization made defense too powerful in this game.

If we look back in update 33 (Ascending tide) patch, we had the opposite problem, where getting kills were a chore because of everyone now having access to restoration staff and Regeneration. While getting kills can still be a chore, proc-heavy builds can work around that. Essentially defense keeps getting buffed in the game to where it requires a lot of effort to even kill anyone outside of proc pvp.

If we ever see a nerf to defensive mechanics via battle spirit, maybe such as nerf cross healing, people wouldn't feel shoehorned into running cheese to get kills. I hope zos revisits ways to make skills more lucrative at killing

VinnyGambini

PPL will always use META sets. Do you know, that masters DW + way of fire, by just pressing ONE BUTTON, you will deal more damage than ony other skill in the game?

This combo alone, masters DW + WoF deals around 1,5k dps (PvP). So you just apply rending slashes, and you can go backbar heal, block, whatever, and you are still doing very nice dmg. Not to even mention, that these are dots, so you cannot block them.

Yes you can cleanse (for 5k magicka) but this can be reapplied every single second, so I see no point to cleanse.

As you can see, it's a free dmg, no wonder why everyone uses it.

Wateshran works exactly the same way. Maarselok and zaan exactly the same way, FREE DMG. Relequen as well.

There is no reason not to use free dmg - this free dmg negates enemys healing to 0. Then you just have to kill enemy with your spammable. You do not need to time your burst, you do not need to time your stun. You need no skill, you need your proc sets.

Try to go no cp pvp. You will see how much more healthy pvp is without these cheese sets. Also, do you know why no cp is not really popular? Because you need skill to win.

DrNukenstein

chiming in, yes engine guardian is the worst offender of all procs. If the user made you take the time to adjust your aim, it worked. There aren't many sets that can screw up a go with nearly as much up time and consistency as the carrybot-9000.

And then it gives you free resources while acting as portable LOS. If your goal is to live more than kill in pvp, it is actually an outlier in its bustedness. If you are using it and saying it isn't that great for what it does, you are being dishonest. Evidence: You are still using it.

LittlePinkDot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

chiming in, yes engine guardian is the worst offender of all procs. If the user made you take the time to adjust your aim, it worked. There aren't many sets that can screw up a go with nearly as much up time and consistency as the carrybot-9000.

And then it gives you free resources while acting as portable LOS. If your goal is to live more than kill in pvp, it is actually an outlier in its bustedness. If you are using it and saying it isn't that great for what it does, you are being dishonest. Evidence: You are still using it.

Well if you're trying to use it for resources it sucks. It never gives you the correct resource at the right time. Too much RNG.

If I want to use line of sight I just use cloak anyway.

xFocused

DrNukenstein wrote: »

chiming in, yes engine guardian is the worst offender of all procs. If the user made you take the time to adjust your aim, it worked. There aren't many sets that can screw up a go with nearly as much up time and consistency as the carrybot-9000.

And then it gives you free resources while acting as portable LOS. If your goal is to live more than kill in pvp, it is actually an outlier in its bustedness. If you are using it and saying it isn't that great for what it does, you are being dishonest. Evidence: You are still using it.

Yep, you nailed it. It's a pretty terrible proc in my opinion. The only people who use it are ones that want you to chase them around rocks, towers, trees, etc...I see someone crutching with that set and I just walk away because it's a waste of time to fight against

Overamera

Current meta is incredibly boring and takes no skill. Everyone is running the same stuff. Dragons appetite, Zaan, Maarselok, Masters dual wield, Relequen etc. Too much free damage from these sets. Everyone I know who is good at PvP and has quit says the same. They stopped playing because the game takes no skill anymore, its all about running these procs.

AstroST

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Can I ask you if you are just trolling or have zero experience in pvp?
Really, I don't have any intention of bashing you, I'm genuinely tryng to understand.

LittlePinkDot

AstroST wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I don't know what the big deal is about Engine Guardian.. All it does is restore resources.

As for hitting it... Just need to aim better.

It's no different than trying not to hit sorc pets.

Can I ask you if you are just trolling or have zero experience in pvp?
Really, I don't have any intention of bashing you, I'm genuinely tryng to understand.

https://media.tenor.com/KgaNE2deR7UAAAAM/violin-tiny.gif