procs nerfed when?

StaticWave

Marcus684 wrote: »

Wouldn't slotting a purge solve this issue? Or is your real complaint Sorcs streaking away? I agree that builds with good disengagement ability (streak, cloak, sprint) can be frustrating to fight, but if you can simply purge their damage they're no longer a danger and become just an annoyance. I learned this years ago during the dual-wield bleed build meta.

There are too many debuffs for purge to effectively cleanse everything, and that's assuming the other player isn't reapplying the debuffs right afterwards.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Wouldn't slotting a purge solve this issue? Or is your real complaint Sorcs streaking away? I agree that builds with good disengagement ability (streak, cloak, sprint) can be frustrating to fight, but if you can simply purge their damage they're no longer a danger and become just an annoyance. I learned this years ago during the dual-wield bleed build meta.

Clense cp is only once every 24 sec. It only takes a few secs to reapply all the negative effects. The pressure from these procs are still to high for it to be as effective as you make it out to be.

I don't mean relying on the CP cleanse, but using an on-demand cleanse like Purge from the Support skill line. With the proliferation of DoTs, status effects, and siege damage I've reslotted this on many of my PvP toons. It's still a bit risky due to Plaguebreak but I don't ball up anyway so that risk is low.

Even still, you are recommending a 5k mag ability to combat a 3k stam cost. Less when they land the heavy attack for Maarselok. Elemental susceptibility included, you also likely have to purge twice or more.

And it's not a sorc thing we should focus on. It's the efficiency of those procs with very little cool down

I think the purge thing has more merit than you're giving it credit for. It isn't so much about who wins the sustain war or how they can re-apply pretty easily.

It's about momentarily stopping the pressure and applying a boatload of your own pressure. Because if there's one thing sorcs don't do well it's heal. And if there's one thing someone wearing dragons appetite , master DW, and Vate Destro also can't do it's heal.

I would think the method to combat this kind of procsorc would be to go all out on offense against them. And since they're primarily healing through crit surge, purging is going to do a lot for you.

But all of that academia and theorizing aside-- nerf the sets, obviously, not the sorcs.

Against that specific build, purge is as bad as it's been given credit for, especially the Alliance War purge someone here suggested. Let's take a standard Sorc combo with mDW/Vate Ice (Curse > Ele sus > Rending Slash) as an example. In 3 GCDs, I can apply these negative effects:

1) Ele sus
2) Major Breach
3) Minor Vul
4) Minor Brittle
5) Minor Maim
6) Burning
7) Curse
8) Rending Slash
9) Hemorrhage

These are guaranteed negative effects (meaning a 100% proc chance and can be reapplied on demand). With a charged off hand, enchants, poisons, Maarselok, and crystal weapon, I can apply these extra effects:

10) 1st tick of double dmg poison
11) 2nd tick of double dmg poison
12) Poisoned
13) Crystal Weapon armor debuff
14) Minor Breach
15) Minor Defile
16) Minor Magickasteal
17) Maarselok proc
18) Vateshran proc

Do a quick cost comparison and we can see that that Sorc combo costs a total of ~2.2k stam and 2.9k mag, while the Alliance War purge costs ~5.2k mag. In 3 GCD, I can apply 9 guaranteed negative effects and up to 18 negative effects if I use a charged off hand, poisons, different enchants, and wear 2 more procs. Efficient Purge can only remove 3 negative effects at a time, meaning I have to spend up to 16k magicka to remove 9 negative effects while somebody can apply them for a little over 5k resources and potentially apply 9 extra negative effects, forcing me to waste even more mag to fully remove them. This is also on a Sorc. A DK or Warden can apply over 20.

No offense, but anyone who says "purge them" clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

SandandStars

to answer op’s question: never

new/cheese proc gear sells new chapters

end of story

caveat: vateshran staff is a widely abused proc crutch that’s fairly old… hmm

gariondavey

SandandStars wrote: »

to answer op’s question: never

new/cheese proc gear sells new chapters

end of story

caveat: vateshran staff is a widely abused proc crutch that’s fairly old… hmm

Vate staff actually wasn't used that much for a year or 2 until they buffed the ever living heck out ele sus a few patches ago and now everyone and their grandma uses it. My grandma uses it and she doesn't even play eso.

OBJnoob

StaticWave wrote: »

No offense, but anyone who says "purge them" clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

Im not offended... But I did already concede that point, so...

I'm just saying that if the person with the procs happens to not be quite as good as you then the counterplay is to purge and go all-out on offense because someone running ALL of these sets hasn't made a lot of room for defense-- particularly a sorc-- and if you force them to play defense not only will they not be able to immediately reapply but you might in fact win the fight.

So to be clear I'm not saying this will work-- I'm saying this is the strategy. I agree the procs are too strong. I agree they can be applied too easily.

But the last thing I said was "I'd rather have a purge than not have one." Because you can alleviate the pressure, perhaps conserve resources by not going on offense at all, and live if not kill them-- or even run away.

Plus it isn't like the days of old where only templars or someone with the alliance skill can purge. You can slot the CP purge which is broken and will purge you regardless of your HP. You can use maras balm. Or yes you can spend resources on it.

It's helpful to do so. There can be no argument about this, surely.

CameraBeardThePirate

Marcus684 wrote: »

Wouldn't slotting a purge solve this issue? Or is your real complaint Sorcs streaking away? I agree that builds with good disengagement ability (streak, cloak, sprint) can be frustrating to fight, but if you can simply purge their damage they're no longer a danger and become just an annoyance. I learned this years ago during the dual-wield bleed build meta.

Purges are expensive (outside of Warden's free, single-effect purge). Ele Sus is a FREE ability, and can apply up to 5(!) negative effects at once, immediately on cast. Rending slashes is a cheap ability that can apply up to 5 negative effects on cast.

You can go ahead and try purging, but you'll run out of resources sooner than they will.

CameraBeardThePirate

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

No offense, but anyone who says "purge them" clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

Im not offended... But I did already concede that point, so...

I'm just saying that if the person with the procs happens to not be quite as good as you then the counterplay is to purge and go all-out on offense because someone running ALL of these sets hasn't made a lot of room for defense-- particularly a sorc-- and if you force them to play defense not only will they not be able to immediately reapply but you might in fact win the fight.

So to be clear I'm not saying this will work-- I'm saying this is the strategy. I agree the procs are too strong. I agree they can be applied too easily.

But the last thing I said was "I'd rather have a purge than not have one." Because you can alleviate the pressure, perhaps conserve resources by not going on offense at all, and live if not kill them-- or even run away.

Plus it isn't like the days of old where only templars or someone with the alliance skill can purge. You can slot the CP purge which is broken and will purge you regardless of your HP. You can use maras balm. Or yes you can spend resources on it.

It's helpful to do so. There can be no argument about this, surely.

It really isn't helpful though. It's much more cost efficient and effective to start pumping HoTs. Removing 3-6 negative effects with an expensive ability, or even giving up a CP star (that, while broken, still has a cooldown and opportunity cost) does you no good when the very next GCD from the opponent will apply more effects than you just removed. It won't even relieve the pressure, as it takes just 1 second for even more effects to be piled onto you. Active ability Purges do no good for you in that race. They only serve to eat up resources and a GCD better spent stunning, healing, or running. A purge is essentially trying to scoop out the water on a sinking ship with a drinking glass.

The only real option is to outheal the pressure, and for most people, that's either difficult or impossible.

OBJnoob

So you're saying if two people of equal skill were to duel, both with these setups and being otherwise identical except one has a purge and one doesn't, that the guy with the purge would lose?

StarOfElyon

gariondavey wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

to answer op’s question: never

new/cheese proc gear sells new chapters

end of story

caveat: vateshran staff is a widely abused proc crutch that’s fairly old… hmm

Vate staff actually wasn't used that much for a year or 2 until they buffed the ever living heck out ele sus a few patches ago and now everyone and their grandma uses it. My grandma uses it and she doesn't even play eso.

I seem to recall it being popular out the gate. But there were so many procs coming out back then that Vate staff got pushed down the list. The vate 2h, wrothgars chill, plague break, dark convergence and more were all so busted that they outshined the vate staff.

CameraBeardThePirate

OBJnoob wrote: »

So you're saying if two people of equal skill were to duel, both with these setups and being otherwise identical except one has a purge and one doesn't, that the guy with the purge would lose?

Yes, actually. All the purge would be doing would be dumping resources for no real benefit. The player without the purge would be feeling less pressure as they'd probably have another HoT slotted to offset the DoTs.

You have to remember that part of what makes the DoT proc set-up so good is that most of the debuffs and effects are simply applied with your spammable. You don't need to take any time rotating through DoTs - medium weave into rending is your main offensive spammable and that alone applies 5+ effects (more than most Purges will purge).

OBJnoob

Okay. Well, that's certainly interesting thank you. My bad-- to whoever I'd originally been talking to.

Marcus684

After seeing more details about these builds I have to agree that they are pretty overtuned compared to their counters. I'm guessing ZOS didn't consider how good the playerbase is at finding these gaps in their attempts at balance.

And oh yeah...

Nerf sorc

gariondavey

StarOfElyon wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

to answer op’s question: never

new/cheese proc gear sells new chapters

end of story

caveat: vateshran staff is a widely abused proc crutch that’s fairly old… hmm

Vate staff actually wasn't used that much for a year or 2 until they buffed the ever living heck out ele sus a few patches ago and now everyone and their grandma uses it. My grandma uses it and she doesn't even play eso.

I seem to recall it being popular out the gate. But there were so many procs coming out back then that Vate staff got pushed down the list. The vate 2h, wrothgars chill, plague break, dark convergence and more were all so busted that they outshined the vate staff.

Yeah it was popular initially and then after a few patches wasn't, until a few patches ago

StaticWave

Marcus684 wrote: »

I'm guessing ZOS didn't consider how good the playerbase is at finding these gaps in their attempts at balance.

They never have, and it's okay. Players will always find out new ways to cheese the meta. What's not okay is ZOS taking too much time to address the issues, or outright ignoring the feedback of PTS players. This has been historically proven when ZOS took 2 years to finally address Malacath meta, or another 2 years to finally make proc sets scale off offensive stats, or ignoring feedback from PTS players about certain builds/sets until it went live and destroyed the PvP meta.

OtarTheMad

If the counters to these set ups didn’t have long cooldowns (well, long for PvP anyway) or cost a lot. It probably wouldn’t be as big of an issue. Example

Wyrd Tree set is easy to proc but has a 15 second cooldown
Curse Eater is 8 seconds
Stendarr is 30 seconds
CP slottable has a cool down
Alliance war support purge is crazy high
Etc

I know lowering these would create even more chaos but it would counter this combo well without nerfing.

To be fair though, honestly, the players using these sets will just move onto the next toxic combo if these are nerfed. There are a crap ton of sets in this game and all someone has to do is be bored and try a few out to find something toxic.

Remiem

Master dw should definitely be toned down but there is also hemorrhaging, specifically the debuff ZOS decided to slap on it like 2 years ago, minor mangle which is way too strong for a status rending spammers can keep a near 100% uptime on.
Landing one rending slashes shouldnt shave off 3.5-4k hp (on an average pvp build) right off the bat on top of the direct part, one of the strongest dots in the game and the hemorrhaging dot.

OBJnoob

Remiem wrote: »

Master dw should definitely be toned down but there is also hemorrhaging, specifically the debuff ZOS decided to slap on it like 2 years ago, minor mangle which is way too strong for a status rending spammers can keep a near 100% uptime on.
Landing one rending slashes shouldnt shave off 3.5-4k hp (on an average pvp build) right off the bat on top of the direct part, one of the strongest dots in the game and the hemorrhaging dot.

Is minor mangle too strong though or do people just have too much HP? If the average HP were more like 25k instead of 35k then obviously minor mangle would do 1k less. I think minor mangle should maybe stay the same-- it's an interesting counter to max HP builds and, unlike oblivion damage, will actually debuff HP-scaling heals like Polar Wind.

And I'm not ignoring the fact that this is attached to a popular weapon skill augmented by an arena set... Or that the whole package is overpowered. I'd just rather see the set adjusted before the skill because I think the skill is fine.

And what isn't fine, frankly, is the average PvP build having 35-40k HP as you referenced.

Necrotech_Master

OBJnoob wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Master dw should definitely be toned down but there is also hemorrhaging, specifically the debuff ZOS decided to slap on it like 2 years ago, minor mangle which is way too strong for a status rending spammers can keep a near 100% uptime on.
Landing one rending slashes shouldnt shave off 3.5-4k hp (on an average pvp build) right off the bat on top of the direct part, one of the strongest dots in the game and the hemorrhaging dot.

Is minor mangle too strong though or do people just have too much HP? If the average HP were more like 25k instead of 35k then obviously minor mangle would do 1k less. I think minor mangle should maybe stay the same-- it's an interesting counter to max HP builds and, unlike oblivion damage, will actually debuff HP-scaling heals like Polar Wind.

And I'm not ignoring the fact that this is attached to a popular weapon skill augmented by an arena set... Or that the whole package is overpowered. I'd just rather see the set adjusted before the skill because I think the skill is fine.

And what isn't fine, frankly, is the average PvP build having 35-40k HP as you referenced.

mangle debuff is -10% max hp (technically it is minor, but there is currently no major variant of mangle)

in order for it to do less than 1k the person under debuff would need to have under 10k max hp

wardens already naturally counter that with toughness buff (+10% max hp)

OBJnoob

@Necrotech_Master Sorry but I already know that and I'm not sure what you're asking or telling me. The person I responded to mentioned how everybody has 35k+ HP. They didn't mention what level of mangling they would find suitable. I was proposing that 25k health might be alright. 10k, as you brought up, would be less still... But I personally don't feel it needs to go that far, and I'm still awaiting their response.

Also... You can say mangle counters toughness or toughness counters mangle. Nevertheless, the warden IS going to have toughness. I'm just saying mangle is a counter to this. And other HP scaling skills.

Necrotech_Master

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master Sorry but I already know that and I'm not sure what you're asking or telling me. The person I responded to mentioned how everybody has 35k+ HP. They didn't mention what level of mangling they would find suitable. I was proposing that 25k health might be alright. 10k, as you brought up, would be less still... But I personally don't feel it needs to go that far, and I'm still awaiting their response.

Also... You can say mangle counters toughness or toughness counters mangle. Nevertheless, the warden IS going to have toughness. I'm just saying mangle is a counter to this. And other HP scaling skills.

i was mostly pointing out that mangle would certainly not do less than 1k if the player being hit was at 25k hp, not sure how that math was arrived at

since its -10% max hp, that would be doing -2500 hp on a 25k hp player, in order for mangle to do under 1k, the player would have to have less than 10k max hp, which realistically isnt possible unless some insane person was running a fully stacked thrassian strangler in pvp lol

OBJnoob

@Necrotech_Master Oh I see the problem. You thought I said it'd do 1k. If you read again you'll see I said it'd do 1k LESS (than if the target had 35k HP.)

TechMaybeHic

I dont think mangle alone is an issue. Actually ; its kind of nice that it scales up the more health your target has. The issue is overloaded abilities that get even more overloaded with procs on top of them

I'd be curious if adding mangle to necro scythe would make it more prevalent.

Necrotech_Master

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master Oh I see the problem. You thought I said it'd do 1k. If you read again you'll see I said it'd do 1k LESS (than if the target had 35k HP.)

yeah i read it correctly, mangle on a 35k hp target would be -3500 hp, way more than less than 1k so still not sure how your coming up with that figure, since mangle debuff is effectively health scaled (-10% of max)

OBJnoob

OBJnoob wrote: »

If the average HP were more like 25k instead of 35k then obviously minor mangle would do 1k less.

SandandStars

Pvp is less fun than it’s ever been in the 3 yrs I’ve played. By far the least diversity of class and gear than at any other time.

When dark convergence first came out, it was pretty apparent that only the cheesiest tryhards were actually using it, cause it literally destroyed the game.

In the current meta, it feels like 90% of the players have given up and they’re using the same formula. MastersDw/vatesh not enough on your undead DK? Throw on Engine Guardian too.

Yuck.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Master dw should definitely be toned down but there is also hemorrhaging, specifically the debuff ZOS decided to slap on it like 2 years ago, minor mangle which is way too strong for a status rending spammers can keep a near 100% uptime on.
Landing one rending slashes shouldnt shave off 3.5-4k hp (on an average pvp build) right off the bat on top of the direct part, one of the strongest dots in the game and the hemorrhaging dot.

Is minor mangle too strong though or do people just have too much HP? If the average HP were more like 25k instead of 35k then obviously minor mangle would do 1k less. I think minor mangle should maybe stay the same-- it's an interesting counter to max HP builds and, unlike oblivion damage, will actually debuff HP-scaling heals like Polar Wind.

And I'm not ignoring the fact that this is attached to a popular weapon skill augmented by an arena set... Or that the whole package is overpowered. I'd just rather see the set adjusted before the skill because I think the skill is fine.

And what isn't fine, frankly, is the average PvP build having 35-40k HP as you referenced.

Minor Mangle is definitely too strong, but against normal builds. The problem with ZOS giving out debuffs to counter specific builds is it hurts normal builds more than the one it's intended to counter.

For example, let's say I can deal 10k burst damage (which is not even that high in today's meta), and my targets are a 25k HP player and a 35k HP one. That 10k burst will chunk 40% of the 25k HP player, and 28.57% of the 35k HP player. With Minor Mangle applied, the 25k HP player now has 22.5k HP, and the 35k HP player now has 31.5k HP. With that same burst, I will now chunk 44.44% of the 25k HP player, and 31.75% of the 35k HP player. This means that the 25k HP experiences a 4.44% increase in HP loss compared to a 3.18% increase for the 35k HP player. A 45k HP player will only experience a 2.47% increase in HP loss.

What I'm saying is, the more HP someone has, the less effect Minor Mangle has on them. This has always been the case historically too when Major and Minor Defile had a 30% and 15% value. These debuffs were designed to counter high healing builds, but in actuality, it hurt builds with lower healing more.

That's why I don't support bringing back Major Defile or introducing debuffs to counter a specific mechanic. What it does is hurt the builds that don't use that mechanic more than the actual build it's designed to counter. What ZOS could do though, is just lower the HP cap and remove Minor Mangle. It's much healthier for the game that way.

xDeusEJRx

Pick your poison fellas

OBJnoob

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Remiem wrote: »

Master dw should definitely be toned down but there is also hemorrhaging, specifically the debuff ZOS decided to slap on it like 2 years ago, minor mangle which is way too strong for a status rending spammers can keep a near 100% uptime on.
Landing one rending slashes shouldnt shave off 3.5-4k hp (on an average pvp build) right off the bat on top of the direct part, one of the strongest dots in the game and the hemorrhaging dot.

Is minor mangle too strong though or do people just have too much HP? If the average HP were more like 25k instead of 35k then obviously minor mangle would do 1k less. I think minor mangle should maybe stay the same-- it's an interesting counter to max HP builds and, unlike oblivion damage, will actually debuff HP-scaling heals like Polar Wind.

And I'm not ignoring the fact that this is attached to a popular weapon skill augmented by an arena set... Or that the whole package is overpowered. I'd just rather see the set adjusted before the skill because I think the skill is fine.

And what isn't fine, frankly, is the average PvP build having 35-40k HP as you referenced.

Minor Mangle is definitely too strong, but against normal builds. The problem with ZOS giving out debuffs to counter specific builds is it hurts normal builds more than the one it's intended to counter.

For example, let's say I can deal 10k burst damage (which is not even that high in today's meta), and my targets are a 25k HP player and a 35k HP one. That 10k burst will chunk 40% of the 25k HP player, and 28.57% of the 35k HP player. With Minor Mangle applied, the 25k HP player now has 22.5k HP, and the 35k HP player now has 31.5k HP. With that same burst, I will now chunk 44.44% of the 25k HP player, and 31.75% of the 35k HP player. This means that the 25k HP experiences a 4.44% increase in HP loss compared to a 3.18% increase for the 35k HP player. A 45k HP player will only experience a 2.47% increase in HP loss.

What I'm saying is, the more HP someone has, the less effect Minor Mangle has on them. This has always been the case historically too when Major and Minor Defile had a 30% and 15% value. These debuffs were designed to counter high healing builds, but in actuality, it hurt builds with lower healing more.

That's why I don't support bringing back Major Defile or introducing debuffs to counter a specific mechanic. What it does is hurt the builds that don't use that mechanic more than the actual build it's designed to counter. What ZOS could do though, is just lower the HP cap and remove Minor Mangle. It's much healthier for the game that way.

I think I disagree? I know, I know, no surprise there

It seems to me like this is just a trickery of math. And to be clear-- I DON'T mean that you're trying to trick anybody, and I don't mean your math is wrong. I just think percentages are a bad way to compare.

The target who had 35k HP now has 31.5k. Minor mangle stole 3.5k from them. The target who had 25k HP now has 22.5k, having lost 2.5k. Minor mangle effected the player with more HP the most. Whatever percentage of their health is taken by a subsequent burst is irrelevant, because we're no longer talking about mangle, and also because it's a mathematical given that the 10k burst will become a greater and greater percentage of ones overall health as that health becomes smaller and smaller. But the mangle never changed value nor became responsible for the burst.

Now there ARE some other factors to consider, about when a person might enter execute range with their diminished HP, or when Undeath might amount to something meaningful (you'll notice these two points off-set,) but I think this is fairly negligible.

If I hit someone for 10k and they only had 20 then I just did half of their health. If they had 40 then I only did 25%. Does this mean my burst somehow hit the lesser HP guy twice as hard? Obviously not.

NyassaV

Marcus684 wrote: »

Wouldn't slotting a purge solve this issue? Or is your real complaint Sorcs streaking away? I agree that builds with good disengagement ability (streak, cloak, sprint) can be frustrating to fight, but if you can simply purge their damage they're no longer a danger and become just an annoyance. I learned this years ago during the dual-wield bleed build meta.

Purge is too expensive... So you're literally just asking OP to be a tank which isn't productive.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

It seems to me like this is just a trickery of math. And to be clear-- I DON'T mean that you're trying to trick anybody, and I don't mean your math is wrong. I just think percentages are a bad way to compare.

Except that it's not a trickery of math. Percentages are a great way to compare if a debuff/buff or a change is good. For example when ZOS increased the healing received penalty through battle Spirit from 50% to 55%, it looks like a 5% change. However, it's actually a 10% change because a 10k heal with 55% penalty would now heal for only 4.5k instead of 5k. That 500 healing loss is a 10% loss.

Similarly, 10% HP debuff from Minor Mangle take away more HP from a 45k HP player than a 25k HP one, but given the same burst damage taken value, the 45K HP player still experiences a lower HP loss with Minor Mangle applied.

OBJnoob wrote: »

The target who had 35k HP now has 31.5k. Minor mangle stole 3.5k from them. The target who had 25k HP now has 22.5k, having lost 2.5k. Minor mangle effected the player with more HP the most. Whatever percentage of their health is taken by a subsequent burst is irrelevant, because we're no longer talking about mangle, and also because it's a mathematical given that the 10k burst will become a greater and greater percentage of ones overall health as that health becomes smaller and smaller. But the mangle never changed value nor became responsible for the burst.

Except that the % of their health taken by a subsequent burst is relevant, because that's how you bring someone closer to death.

It doesn't matter if the higher HP player lost more from Minor Mangle. He still has a higher base HP, and thus will be less close to death than the one with low HP. A 35k HP player losing 3.5k HP and taking a 10k burst is not going to be closer to death than a 25k HP player losing 2.5k HP and taking the same burst.

OBJnoob wrote: »

Now there ARE some other factors to consider, about when a person might enter execute range with their diminished HP, or when Undeath might amount to something meaningful (you'll notice these two points off-set,) but I think this is fairly negligible.

This is why I said the 25k HP experiences a 4.44% increase in HP loss compared to a 3.18% increase for the 35k HP player if we use the same burst value for both. When you have more HP to lose from, you are more protected from being closer to death.

OBJnoob wrote: »

If I hit someone for 10k and they only had 20 then I just did half of their health. If they had 40 then I only did 25%. Does this mean my burst somehow hit the lesser HP guy twice as hard? Obviously not.

It's not hitting the lesser HP guy twice as hard, but it's bringing him closer to death than the 40k HP guy. Apply Minor Mangle on both players, and the lesser HP guy is at MORE risk of being killed than the higher HP guy.

Giving debuffs to counter specific builds hurts the builds it's not intended to counter more. This has been historically proven lol. Major + Minor Defile hurting builds with less healing than builds with more. Think about it. If you have 4 healing abilities on your bar and you're defiled by 50%, you are still better off compared to a dude with only 2 healing abilities on his bar and also defiled by 50%. The same logic applies to high HP players vs low HP ones affected by Minor Mangle.

So the solution isn't to introduce some debuff to counter some build. The solution is to put a cap to the offending builds. Too much HP? Put an HP cap. Too much healing? Limit the amount of heals someone can stack. Too much crit damage? Put a crit dmg cap.