"Me tank" to Group.... Have you done......

ElderSmitter

Scalecaller Peak (DPS) Yeah I have done it..... Other (DPS) Yeah i have done it.... 15 Deaths Later and Rezzes by Myself and Healer on 1st boss... Umm... Thanks for Fibbing lol Peace out...

Just be Honest i Enjoy Teaching......

wilykcat

Scale caller peak. That dungeon is pretty toxic. The one boss (Orzun the Foul-Smelling) literally has deadly farts that --nope

Keep them two first bosses seperate. Don't step in aoe from that boss, ever.

I don't like where my post is going so I'm gonna leave it unfinished.

Sarannah

As a tank I never had any issues with scalecaller peak(even on vet), except for the one time where there was someone who didn't understand english. And as long as I do the mechanics I can rez players, except on the statue boss where we get trapped.

Take 10 seconds to type out the boss mechanics before engaging the bosses, and you will have a really good time. Most players will get it. Sometimes going a tiny bit slower, makes you 10 times faster.

In scalecaller peak, after completing it, many players often thank me for the typing out the strategy and for tanking. Probably because many players have so many issues with getting this dungeon done.

PS: ZOS should remove speedrunners and fake roles from dungeons!

svendf

vSCP is a dungeon where communication is important as pointed out above. Take your time use text or voice coms. It will take some of the stress factor´s away.

Some player´s treat some of the harder content as they would in normal or more base game vet dungeons and create negative tensions in the group. They bring very bad habits.

15 death´s later. Im pretty much sure I would have left as it would be very stressful. I have myself seen people running through the dungeon and not being open about, if it´s a first time run.

Yes ZOS should remove speedrunners and fake runners from dungeons. All this should start in normal dungeons, because that´s where it´s all begin and the learning begins for new player´s and habbits are created.

Somehow ZOS just don´t get it.

Soarora

I don’t think it’s possible to remove fake roles and speedrunners. Only thing that could be done is nerf transmute from normal and buff other transmute sources. Anyways, people should absolutely be honest and say they need mechanics explained. I’m never going to explain them if no one asks.
At this point I thank people who do say that they’re new or need brushing up on mechanics for communicating…

Sarannah

Soarora wrote: »

I don’t think it’s possible to remove fake roles and speedrunners. Only thing that could be done is nerf transmute from normal and buff other transmute sources.

Well, there are plenty of ways to fix this: Having to kill all main bosses to be able to attack the final boss, having to kill 90% of the trash mobs to be able to engage a next boss, having roadblocks behind each boss which can only be passed if the boss dies, needing atleast 3 players to be able to even engage a boss, giving all bosses an attack which only real tanks can survive, etc. Plenty of ways.

Soarora wrote: »

Anyways, people should absolutely be honest and say they need mechanics explained. I’m never going to explain them if no one asks.
At this point I thank people who do say that they’re new or need brushing up on mechanics for communicating…

The problem with this is, many people will kick or leave a dungeon if players state this. Barely anyone has patience anymore.
When I encounter a boss of which I know it is mechanically heavy, I will explain the mechanics, even if not asked to. And most of the time players appreciate this.

I miss the time where gamers enjoyed the journey more than just the rewards at the end. Real gamers.

Soarora

Sarannah wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I don’t think it’s possible to remove fake roles and speedrunners. Only thing that could be done is nerf transmute from normal and buff other transmute sources.

Well, there are plenty of ways to fix this: Having to kill all main bosses to be able to attack the final boss, having to kill 90% of the trash mobs to be able to engage a next boss, having roadblocks behind each boss which can only be passed if the boss dies, needing atleast 3 players to be able to even engage a boss, giving all bosses an attack which only real tanks can survive, etc. Plenty of ways.

Soarora wrote: »

Anyways, people should absolutely be honest and say they need mechanics explained. I’m never going to explain them if no one asks.
At this point I thank people who do say that they’re new or need brushing up on mechanics for communicating…

The problem with this is, many people will kick or leave a dungeon if players state this. Barely anyone has patience anymore.
When I encounter a boss of which I know it is mechanically heavy, I will explain the mechanics, even if not asked to. And most of the time players appreciate this.

I miss the time where gamers enjoyed the journey more than just the rewards at the end. Real gamers.

1. While that would stop people from literally running through entire non-dlc dungeons, that doesn't deal with speedrunners who run ahead soloing the dungeon. Bosses that have an attack only real tanks survive could help I suppose, it's why speedrunners on veteran die. Can't say they learn from their mistakes though.

2. I'm not wasting my (and everyone elses) time explaining mechanics to people who will ignore me or people who know mechanics already, someone asking for help ensures me that they actually want the help. Everyone I know would explain mechanics to someone who asks, even if they're frustrated about them not knowing. I have never been kicked for not knowing mechanics, nor have I ever seen anyone be kicked for not knowing mechanics. I've seen people leave when they don't know mechanics and give up after one try though. That's not to say that people being kicked doesn't happen but I dungeon a lot and have never seen it. Dungeons are a group activity, if people don't want to communicate or don't want to help their groupmates then they shouldn't pug. I agree, it should be for the journey even if one is trying to farm something.

Braffin

Sarannah wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I don’t think it’s possible to remove fake roles and speedrunners. Only thing that could be done is nerf transmute from normal and buff other transmute sources.

Well, there are plenty of ways to fix this: Having to kill all main bosses to be able to attack the final boss, having to kill 90% of the trash mobs to be able to engage a next boss, having roadblocks behind each boss which can only be passed if the boss dies, needing atleast 3 players to be able to even engage a boss, giving all bosses an attack which only real tanks can survive, etc. Plenty of ways.

Soarora wrote: »

Anyways, people should absolutely be honest and say they need mechanics explained. I’m never going to explain them if no one asks.
At this point I thank people who do say that they’re new or need brushing up on mechanics for communicating…

The problem with this is, many people will kick or leave a dungeon if players state this. Barely anyone has patience anymore.
When I encounter a boss of which I know it is mechanically heavy, I will explain the mechanics, even if not asked to. And most of the time players appreciate this.

I miss the time where gamers enjoyed the journey more than just the rewards at the end. Real gamers.

You simply want to kill off enjoyment for a lot of people just to enforce your personal perferred playstyle by implementing a rigid system of rules while eliminating freedom of choice. This sort of "real gamers" (an insult in itself) are completely dispensable and the game would be better without them.

Sarannah

Actually, these restrictions would only count through the dungeonfinder, so there would always be 4 players. When players enter solo/duo, there would be no such restrictions ofcourse. So there would be 0 disadvantages, while making every dungeonfinder run a regular dungeon run.

Braffin

Sarannah wrote: »

Actually, these restrictions would only count through the dungeonfinder, so there would always be 4 players. When players enter solo/duo, there would be no such restrictions ofcourse. So there would be 0 disadvantages, while making every dungeonfinder run a regular dungeon run.

What's "regular" isn't for you to decide. You are a player as we others, your preferred playstyle isn't any more "regular" than anyone's else.

Your "solutions" are affecting premade groups while using the finder. Fortunately they're out of the question anyways.

Sarannah

Braffin wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Actually, these restrictions would only count through the dungeonfinder, so there would always be 4 players. When players enter solo/duo, there would be no such restrictions ofcourse. So there would be 0 disadvantages, while making every dungeonfinder run a regular dungeon run.

What's "regular" isn't for you to decide. You are a player as we others, your preferred playstyle isn't any more "regular" than anyone's else.

Your "solutions" are affecting premade groups while using the finder. Fortunately they're out of the question anyways.

How would they impact premade groups, besides them maybe taking a minute or two more to complete a dungeon? ... They would simply have to run the dungeon like a regular dungeon, as should already be the case.

MMO's have always had strict rules for groupcontent, and basically every other MMO has kept those rules in place to stop griefing and bad experiences. Which is what speedrunning and fake roles are, griefing other players. It would be better to slightly impact the few premade groups(which you are worried about), than have the situation we have now: Where three players are the literal victims of one griefer, with nothing they can do about it. And this isn't a rare situation, but it happens in basically almost every dungeon, which is absurd. (Imagine all the new players who stopped playing after having one of these bad experiences, even I do not run dungeons in ESO anymore as it is just not fun at all, and I love ESO)

The current MMO state of dungeons in ESO is totally broken, especially in normal dungeons. The dungeons where players are supposed to learn their role, and learn how teamplay works.

PS: Some of the solutions I named are already present in some of the other big MMO's. So there is no excuse for not expecting them in this MMO as well.

Braffin

Three players can never be the "victim" of one, except they are to stupid for a kickvote.

Besides that, and I eagerly tell you again, what's regular is definitely not for you to decide. It's the majority. Most dungeons have optional bosses and optional routes. If you wanna do them in a specific way, don't go for random, but do it manually with likeminded people, as everyone else.

In fact you're the one trying to force three others into your playstyle. That's entitlement at it's peak.

PS: premades are most probably the majority btw, as most people playing an online game don't refuse to communicate with each other.

PPS: There are obviously more "speedrunners" as people playing in your pace. Otherwise you wouldn't meet them permanently. And they are surely the majority in group, otherwise they would get kicked. Once again, do your "every critter, every chest and every heavy sack"-runs not without consent, because that's what I call griefing.

svendf

Wouldn´t it just be better to remove all chest, quests, HS including skillpoints from dungens ? The fact is new player´s seems to have their skilpoints, taken away from them direct under their nose.

The creating of a good player begins right a the begining. Player quality start right there another Mmo is prove of it. One in the top rankings.

It´s a creation of the people, who manage ESO. The very people, who have the saying.

Soarora

svendf wrote: »

Wouldn´t it just be better to remove all chest, quests, HS including skillpoints from dungens ? The fact is new player´s seems to have their skilpoints, taken away from them direct under their nose.

The creating of a good player begins right a the begining. Player quality start right there another Mmo is prove of it. One in the top rankings.

It´s a creation of the people, who manage ESO. The very people, who have the saying.

Chests give an additional chance of getting end boss loot (weapons/jewelry), heavy sacks are just a nice bonus, quests make the dungeon story make sense, and no one NEEDS to do dungeons for the skillpoints. I do public dungeons, dungeons, and skyshards. Someone could do public dungeons, main quests, skyshards. Or just do more skyshards. My main is missing lots of skill points from dungeons but she doesn’t need any of them.

Dungeon runs still do exist where everyone is new and working together through mechanics. I used to get them more but I know mechanics so that’s not really going to happen again. I did though get thrown into a last boss instance of vBanished Cells recently where people were discussing strats because they were progging it. I hope those players are doing well, seeing runs like that still exist made me very happy.

Braffin

svendf wrote: »

Wouldn´t it just be better to remove all chest, quests, HS including skillpoints from dungens ? The fact is new player´s seems to have their skilpoints, taken away from them direct under their nose.

The creating of a good player begins right a the begining. Player quality start right there another Mmo is prove of it. One in the top rankings.

It´s a creation of the people, who manage ESO. The very people, who have the saying.

I see no need tbh. Most of the groups are functional and the participating players get what they came for. Everything from speedrun to lootrun (where chests are really nice) is easily possible, if players communicate their intents.

The problems aren't caused by the dungeons or the finder, but by a part of the playerbase itself. Whoever isn't willing to communicate with others and insists on "my way is the only regular way to play" instead of making compromise, should have no saying regarding group content. They are selfish people which are better ignored completely.

Sarannah

Braffin wrote: »

Three players can never be the "victim" of one, except they are to stupid for a kickvote.

They cant?
-Example 1: One player uses the groupfinder and queues up as a fake tank. The random dungeon is a DLC dungeon, and the fake tank instantly leaves upon entering. Forcing the three others to have to queue yet again, and wait out this queue again. So after waiting for a 20 min queue, they now have to wait out yet another 20 min queue. So all three of these players are victims of the one. (kicking not an option)
-Example 2: Four players queue up for a dungeon, and one is a speedrunner. The speedrunner player runs past everything, including bosses and mobs to get to the final boss. All the players get pulled to the final boss, as the speedrunner is there. Only one player manages to get a hit in before the final boss dies. Meaning two players miss out on the final boss's loot, making these two victims. All this is even besides the bad overall experience of having to run after one player the entire dungeon. (kicking not an option in combat)
-Example 3: After doing normals and geting pulled to the bosses, a new player thinks: "Hey this normal dungeon was easy, I can do veterans without a problem." So the new player queues for a veteran dungeon, where he gets kicked due to low DPS. He queues again for a veteran, and gets kicked again due to low DPS. All the while, three players in veteran dungeons get negatively impacted because of the speedrunners this new player encountered in normals. Not only that, this new player is now a victim of these speedrunners, as he had no chance to learn his role or how groupplay works in this game. (kicking not an option)
-Example 4: A fake tank queues for a dungeon, and is just terrible and keeps dying even in non-DLC normal dungeons. Thinking they do enough DPS to compensate, but they are terribly mistaken, as they are bad DPS as well(most common fake tanks are like this). Players kick this person, and have to wait out yet another 20 min queue. Leaving three players as victims of the one who skipped the line. (kicking does not solve the issue)

All of these examples are the most common things happening in dungeons right now, and they leave many victims with bad experiences behind. This is also the reason most players treat ESO as a singleplayer game.

Another interesting thing about this is endgame. Due to how broken the MMO parts in ESO are, barely anyone flows into the endgame parts of ESO. Causing it more and more to become an overland/questing experience, like a singleplayer game. How players treat normal dungeons has a major impact on the entire game, including the endgame population.

Braffin wrote: »

Besides that, and I eagerly tell you again, what's regular is definitely not for you to decide. It's the majority. Most dungeons have optional bosses and optional routes. If you wanna do them in a specific way, don't go for random, but do it manually with likeminded people, as everyone else.

In fact you're the one trying to force three others into your playstyle. That's entitlement at it's peak.

Not true, as this is an MMO. In MMO's one would expect to kill the dungeon mobs and bosses while geting loot and exp. Something which isn't happening right now. Players miss out on exp as practically nothing gets killed(speedrunner), or if the dungeon doesn't even start(fake role). Players miss out on loot as practically nothing gets killed(speedrunners), or if the dungeon doesn't even start(fake role).
The expectation to atleast kill the monsters and bosses one encounters in a dungeon in an MMO isn't forcing a playstyle on others, it is the regular way MMO's work. Luckily ZOS is making the newer dungeons more streamlined so they are regular dungeons like any other MMO would have, I just hope they revisit the older dungeons to add these restrictions as well.

Braffin wrote: »

PS: premades are most probably the majority btw, as most people playing an online game don't refuse to communicate with each other.

That is strange, because ZOS is now aiming most of their content and crown store items towards casuals. And most players seem to treat ESO as if it were a singleplayer game. Which is a direct result of the broken MMO parts of the game, atleast in my opinion. How many players flow through the game to endgame, is also a huge tell for how the MMO part of ESO is currently not functioning well. But neither of us have the figures for this.

Braffin wrote: »

PPS: There are obviously more "speedrunners" as people playing in your pace. Otherwise you wouldn't meet them permanently. And they are surely the majority in group, otherwise they would get kicked. Once again, do your "every critter, every chest and every heavy sack"-runs not without consent, because that's what I call griefing.

There are more speedrunners and fake roles, because many other players have given up on the MMO parts of the game. Getting bad experiences is just not fun, so players stop doing those parts of the game. Including me, while I loved completing dungeons in other games. (There is a difference between going fast and going stupidly ignoring every monster and boss fast)

In groupplay, there need to be clear boundaries and rulesets!

PS: Communicating with players like these is of no use, as they already do not care for the other players they negatively impact.

Braffin

Clear rules are already present: In groupplay it's necessary to communicate with your teammates, if you want to get what you want.

If you aren't willing to do so, that's your personal problem, not the community's or the game's.

Nobody is forced to play with another specific player, so people are free to leave and free to kick as much as they want. You'll have to live with that. Kidnapping other players and abuse them as advanced npc for your personal interests won't work.

You are always talking about rigid rules, so please show them. Where in ToS can I find how I have to play a dungeon? Are there any dev comments on this?

None of that is existant, because those "regular runs" ate solely your personal preferences and not necessary for dungeon completion on purpose.

peacenote

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Scalecaller Peak (DPS) Yeah I have done it..... Other (DPS) Yeah i have done it.... 15 Deaths Later and Rezzes by Myself and Healer on 1st boss... Umm... Thanks for Fibbing lol Peace out...

Just be Honest i Enjoy Teaching......

I will say that some people don't know what they don't know. They think in their memory they have done the dungeon but they did it on normal and forgot, or on a different character, or were carried but didn't realize by very experienced players in dungeon finder but never learned mechs.

You might want to ask a different question than "have you done it before" after the first couple of deaths or just teach regardless. Remind the group after a wipe about the ice mechanic, as an example, whether they have cleared it before or not.

illusiouk

At least you got a answer even if it was a fib, what about the groups when you ask them something and....nothing. "Crickets Chirping"

ArchMikem

Those bosses do have some almost unfair mechanics. The twin Ogres have to be damaged equally so they're downed at the same time, the Peryite statue's poison spawning at just the right time where it gets you mid dodge roll.

Soarora

ArchMikem wrote: »

Those bosses do have some almost unfair mechanics. The twin Ogres have to be damaged equally so they're downed at the same time, the Peryite statue's poison spawning at just the right time where it gets you mid dodge roll.

Never dodge roll during Zaan, only kite. And try to stay along the edges of where the cones would be.