Taunt immunity has become a worse problem after Update 37, and how to fix it

code65536 · August 2023

In Update 37, the following change was made:

The second is that taunt immunity or “over taunting” will now be harder to reach; it will take 5 applications of a taunt between two members in total before reaching, up from 3, which should give a bit more breathing room in multi-boss encounters.

I and other tanks have rejoiced at this changed, but we've since noticed that there have been many incidents of surprising and unexpected Taunt Immunity, often happening well after a taunt swap. After examining how Taunt Immunity works after Update 37, I have come to the conclusion that in some regards, it's in an arguably worse state than what we had originally.

How did Taunt Immunity originally work, prior to Update 37?

In order to compare how Taunt Immunity works now, we must first look at how it used to work. Prior to Update 37, Taunt Immunity was governed by a tracking effect called Taunt Counter.

Taunt Counter lasts for 12s.
Taunt Counter gains a stack when a taunt succeeds.
Taunt Counter's duration is not refreshed when it gains a stack.
Taunt Counter is limited to 2 stacks unless a second player taunts during the duration of Taunt Counter.
When Taunt Counter reaches 3 stacks, Taunt Immunity is applied for 12s. The taunt that triggered this increase will succeed, but the subsequent Taunt Immunity will prevent any further taunts.

The best way to understand this is with a couple of examples.

Example 1: Taunt Immunity is applied during a taunt swap
- Tank 1 taunts initially (Taunt Counter stacks: 1)
- Tank 1 refreshes taunt (Taunt Counter stacks: 2)
  - Taunt Counter will remain at 2 stacks for any further taunt refreshes, because of the 4th rule listed above.
- Tank 2 taunts (Taunt Counter stacks: 3; the taunt change succeeds, but Taunt Immunity is applied to prevent further taunt refreshes or taunt changes for 12s)
Example 2: Taunt Immunity is applied shortly after a taunt swap
- Tank 1 taunts initially (Taunt Counter stacks: 1)
- Tank 2 taunts (Taunt Counter stacks: 2)
- Tank 2 refreshes taunt (Taunt Counter stacks: 3; the taunt refresh succeeds, but Taunt Immunity is applied to prevent further taunt refreshes or taunt changes for 12s)

One important—and confusing—characteristic of the original Taunt Immunity is that Taunt Counter did not refresh its duration whenever it gained a stack. You must build up to 3 stacks within 12s of Taunt Counter starting in order to trigger Immunity, and any intermediate stacks that you gain will not extend that 12s window. This is what made the original Taunt Immunity unintuitive and confusing, and I want to illustrate this with a few quick examples.

Example 3: Tank 1 taunts with Pierce Armor at 0s (TC=1), refreshes taunt at 1s to apply the debuffs from Frost Clench (TC=2), and Tank 2 takes over at 11s (TC=3, Immunity applied). Here, there's a generous 10s gap between Tank 1's most recent taunt and Tank 2's swap taunt, and Taunt Immunity is triggered.
Example 4: Tank 1 taunts at 0s (TC=1), and then spams taunt every second for 11s, so at 1s, 2s, ... 11s (TC=2), and then Tank 2 takes over at just past the 12s mark. There's no Taunt Immunity here because Taunt Counter's 12s duration had expired by the time Tank 2 took over, even though Tank 2's taunt came right on the heels of long chain of taunt spam.

This non-refreshing behavior of the Taunt Counter duration means whether or not a taunt triggers Taunt Immunity depends largely on when the most recent Taunt Counter window was first started, and since Taunt Counter is completely invisible to players without the help of specialized addons, there's no way to know if Taunt Counter has just expired or if you're still inside that window, which is why you get seemingly contradictory results like the two examples I just gave above. But as I'll demonstrate later, there are pitfalls to having the duration refresh.

How does Taunt Immunity work now, after Update 37?

Currently, on the Live server...

Taunt Counter lasts for 12s. — No change
Taunt Counter gains a stack when a taunt succeeds. — No change
Taunt Counter's duration is refreshed when it gains a stack. — Changed
Taunt Counter is limited to just 1 stack unless a second player taunts during the duration of Taunt Counter. — Changed (1 stack instead of 2)
When Taunt Counter reaches 5 stacks, Taunt Immunity is applied for 12s. The taunt that triggered this increase will succeed, but the subsequent Taunt Immunity will prevent any further taunts. — Changed (5 stacks instead of 3)

The changes limiting the single-taunt stack count to 1 instead of 2 and increasing the trigger point from 3 to 5 are all things that make Taunt Immunity harder to trigger and easier to deal with after Update 37. But then there's Taunt Counter's duration refresh. Again, let's turn to an example to illustrate how Taunt Immunity is often triggered post-U37:

Tank 1 taunts initially (Taunt Counter stacks: 1)
Tank 2 taunts (Taunt Counter stacks: 2 and duration refreshed)
Tank 2 refreshes taunt (Taunt Counter stacks: 3 and duration refreshed)
Tank 2 refreshes taunt (Taunt Counter stacks: 4 and duration refreshed)
Tank 2 refreshes taunt (Taunt Counter stacks: 5; the taunt refresh succeeds, but Taunt Immunity is applied to prevent further taunt refreshes or taunt changes for 12s)

It's actually still very easy to trigger Taunt Immunity. Before Update 37, when Taunt Counter's duration did not refresh, you had to get all 3 taunts within a 12s window. Now, you need 5 taunts, but it's no longer a 12s window, because that window is extended every time you taunt. So it's not a matter of getting 5 taunts in 12s, but rather getting 5 taunts that are within 12s of each other, meaning that you can build up to immunity over a period of almost a minute!

Tanks are often refreshing taunts early due to the set procs and various other effects and that are associated with taunt. For example, Frost Clench applies Major Maim and Minor Brittle for 5s, so a tank who is seeking to maintain uptimes on those effects is essentially guaranteed to trigger Taunt Immunity after a taunt swap.

In what ways is the current Taunt Immunity behavior worse than before?

By now, you're probably thinking, "Okay, Taunt Immunity isn't hard to trigger now, but still it's harder to trigger than before, so why do you think it's worse?" Well, what makes the Taunt Immunity worse now is the timing of when it happens. Prior to Update 37, if tanks performing a tank swap mechanic—e.g., swapping sides on DSR twins—trigger Immunity, it happens either during the swap or very shortly afterwards.

First, the proximity of the Immunity pre-U37 made it clear to players what triggered it. Now, it takes much longer to build up and so tanks may be confused by Taunt Immunity being triggered when there hasn't been a recent taunt swap.
Second, there's generally a cooldown of at least 30s between tank swap mechanics in trials, so if you trigger Taunt Immunity during a tank swap, it's really just a minor nuisance: it prevents the new tank from refreshing taunt for a while, but by the time you need to perform the tank swap mechanic again, Taunt Immunity would've long worn off. That is no longer the case, and Taunt Immunity is now much more likely to interfere with the next tank swap mechanic.

In general, the current behavior is a bit counter-intuitive because it's now mostly triggered by taunt refreshes rather than actual taunt swaps; taunt swaps "prime" the Taunt Counter, but it's usually the post-swap refreshes that actually cause the Taunt Immunity.

Finally, consider the following scenario, with two tanks who refresh taunt every 5s for Frost Clench:

Tank 1 taunts at 0s (TC=1)
Tank 1 refreshes at 5s and 10s (TC=1)
Tank 2 takes over taunt at 11s (TC=2)
Tank 2 refreshes every 5s (TC=3,4,5) until Taunt Immunity is triggered at the 26s mark.

Now let's tweak this scenario ever so slightly and delay Tank 2's initial taunt by just a second so that they taunt just a bit after the 12s mark. This way, when they take over the taunt, the Taunt Counter had just expired, and instead of increasing Taunt Counter to 2, they are starting a fresh new Taunt Counter at 1. And in this case, all of their subsequent taunt refreshes are "safe" and will not build stacks, and no Taunt Immunity will be triggered. And the only thing that changed to produce this very different end result was a 1s delay. How is any of this intuitive to the player? The answer is that it's not.

How do we fix Taunt Immunity?

While the issues with the current Taunt Immunity is largely the result of Taunt Counter now refreshing its duration, I personally think that having the duration refresh is a good thing. As I've explained earlier, the original non-refreshing behavior had the potential to make the original Taunt Immunity confusing and counter-intuitive. The real problem is that Taunt Immunity can be triggered by taunt refreshes, and the role of the duration refresh change is to act as an exacerbating factor for the taunt refresh problem.

Therefore, I think the best solution is to make it so that Taunt Counter stacks are gained only when the player holding taunt is changed. I.e., taunt refreshes—taunts made by the current holder of taunt—should not build stacks of Taunt Counter. After all, Taunt Immunity's main purpose is to prevent tanks from just ping-ponging a boss between them indefinitely. It shouldn't be there to punish tanks who are refreshing their taunts and keeping uptimes on related effects.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler Please take a look at this. In encounters where there are periodic tank swap mechanics (e.g., DSR twins, HoF triplets, MoL twins, SE HM, etc.), the behavior of the new Taunt Immunity is more dangerous than what we had originally.

code65536 · August 2023

Hopefully, the behavior of Taunt Immunity can be changed to address the current issues, but in the meantime until that happens, players who want avoid triggering the new Taunt Immunity have two options:

Wait until you have less than 3s remaining on your taunt before you refresh it, if you had just taken the boss for a tank swap mechanic.
BloodStainChild who I raid with on EU made an excellent addon to track Taunt Counter's duration and stacks if you want a more precise solution.

Sparkrip · May 27

So, any news on when this will be addressed? or just making it 7 second timer was enough? because tank 2 can still overtaunt the boss by themselves from 2-5.

Sparkrip · May 27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vkpQ8Kfi6o

In this video you'll see Tank 1 spamming taunt the whole time but after applying the initial taunt counter he has no effect on it even after tank 2 took taunt. The only thing that changes the taunt counter is tank 2 taunting before it expires. What tank 1 is doing has no effect on this process, they can be spamming taunt, dead or afk. If tank 2 gets 4 taunts before the timer goes to 0 boss will go taunt immune.

code65536 · May 27

Sparkrip wrote: »

or just making it 7 second timer was enough?

I think so. It's not a perfect solution, but it's Good Enough™.

In practice, the the shorter timer has largely eliminated unexpected overtaunt issues in content.

Personofsecrets · June 10

Does chaining impact the taunt count? I could too see that being an issue if someone is using chains as a way to trigger Encratis.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 10

I hope this is addressed, because I wouldn't think that the second tank retaunting the boss early should proc taunt immunity after a minute just because the taunt swapped earlier.

Especially because now that you can spam your taunt in single-tank scenarios, people might be used to having to only retaunt in that 12-15 second window. It would just be a quality of life thing and make taunt addons less necessary.

Edit: Or was the taunt counter reduced from 12 seconds? Not sure if there's been a change to this already.

code65536 · June 10

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Does chaining impact the taunt count? I could too see that being an issue if someone is using chains as a way to trigger Encratis.

The taunt from chains is applied only if the target is untaunted. You cannot use chains to override someone else's taunt. You can't even use chains to refresh your own taunt (unless it has completely run out). So, no, chains cannot cause immunity.

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Edit: Or was the taunt counter reduced from 12 seconds? Not sure if there's been a change to this already.

Taunt counter has been reduced to 7s. While I would have preferred the change that I originally recommended (incrementing the counter only in the case of a taunt change), reducing the counter duration has been, in practice, a fairly effectively band-aid solution.