Bound Armaments needs a real buff

StaticWave

3 years ago I created this thread to address Bound Armaments being lackluster in PvP:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512264/please-improve-bound-armaments-for-pvp#latest

One of the suggestions I proposed for improving Bound Armaments was to make heavy attacks generate 2 stacks. This took 3 years to implement.

Now I don't know whether ZOS sincerely dislikes Sorc so much or they think this class is doing just fine in PvE to not warrant any serious buffs, but taking 3 years to implement a simple QoL change is something else...

Bound Armaments is currently not competitive in PvP, period. The skill is basically a budget Merciless Resolve, but much worse. Please consider improving its functionality with ONE of the following buff suggestions:

1) Increase the stacks to 5
2) Remove the 0.3s delay
3) Convert the damage into 1 large projectile instead of 4
4) Add a 3rd effect (Merciless Resolve heals while in melee range)
5) Rework the 8% max stam to X% damage done per dagger, up to 5% max

MashmalloMan

StaticWave wrote: »

1) Increase the stacks to 5
2) Remove the 0.3s delay
3) Convert the damage into 1 large projectile instead of 4
4) Add a 3rd effect (Merciless Resolve heals while in melee range)
5) Rework the 8% max stam to X% damage done per dagger, up to 5% max

Like I mentioned in the other thread, I think ZOS thinks this skill should be less valuable simply because Sorc has more damage skills at their disposal, but it's a silly reason. Less is more. NB does much better with much less setup.

1. I would take a nerf to 5-6 stacks if it meant the skill could be buffed elsewhere. The reason they originally made it less stacks was so Stam Sorc's could use it more often. It came from a point in the game where they literally only had Hurricane as their only damage skill before Crystal Weapon and Hybridization came into play.
2. Agreed, you should say why though. All projectiles in the game are coded with a minimum travel time, something like 200-300 mileseconds. This means even in melee range, the projectile will not instantly hit your target. This was introduced for counter play, it's why instant melee skills feel much better than instant projectile skills. They're more reliable. The fact that this skill has an additional delay of 300 mileeconds, multiplied by x4 has made it one of the easiest skills in the game to dodge completely, despite dealing less damage than NB's bow proc.
3. I actually prefer the skill hitting multiple times, there is no benefit to making it 1 projectile over 4 if the delay is removed. I believe this helps Sorc's version of the skill stand out and fit better within the class. Eg. Death by a thousand cuts. Because there is multiple daggers, it helps proc effects like Sundered (10% base per dagger) and effects like Staggered (+___ damage done) are multiplied by 4x instead of 1x. Most importantly, 4 chances to get 1 crit to proc Crit Surge. Since Sorc has no way to guarantee crits, it makes sense their version is multiple hits.
4. While I agree from the skill budget side, the "3rd effect" in my mind comes from the passive where we get 100% uptime of the 8% HP.. It's extremely surprising ZOS didn't throw us under the bus when it comes to this bonus, obviously NB has their own passives for their skill line so it's not much of an argument. Skills should be balanced alone, passives are for above and beyond, but still something to consider. I don't want to lose access to that buff.
5. 100% agreed, should be hybridized. I'm more in favour of Crit Chance or Crit Damage/Healing Done, we already have Amplitude for Damage Done. We have no access to either type of unamed buff in our kit. In my opinion, NB should be about high bursty, one time damage via high Crit Damage and Pen. Since they have multiple ways to guarantee crit's, they don't need to stack crit chance. For Sorc, we should be the other side of the coin.. "Death by a thousand cuts". We have many multiple hit direct damage attacks that help proc Crit Surge and Dark Magic healing.

To further support my argument about the thousand cuts thing, remember Implosion ? That passive was amazing because it really supported the idea to stack as many physical/shock damage ticks you could to help increase your chances to proc it. Aka Flurry, Hurricane, Lightning Flood, etc. It's a shame they deleted it for something boring like Amplitude. At least Templar got to keep Burning Light after all these years..

Aces-High-82

I'd like it to apply minor breach for say 4sec.
The delay on multiple projectiles honestly is one big plus imo as the way the application itself can be very forgiving vs dodgeroll as how wonky positional data is comunicated between clients/server.

SkaraMinoc

The coefficient is weak for a telegraphed ability spread out over 1.2 seconds.

<<3>> = 0.037188 MaxStat + 0.390474 MaxPower (Ultimate, ratio = 10.50, Dmg, Physical, SingleTarget, Direct, R2 = 1)
<<4>> = 0.3 seconds (Constant)

0.390474 MaxPower * 4 hits = 1.561896 MaxPower

That's only 1.30158 MaxPower over 1 second. Embarrassing damage for a 4 second ramp up.

Assassin's Will is <<1>> = 0.204534 MaxStat + 2.14761 MaxPower

That's 65% more damage over 1 second. Not balanced.

SkaraMinoc

You know Bound Armaments is busted when Stam Sorcs are running Crystal Fragments instead.

ZhuJiuyin

StaticWave wrote: »

Now I don't know whether ZOS sincerely dislikes Sorc so much or they think this class is doing just fine in PvE to not warrant any serious buffs, but taking 3 years to implement a simple QoL change is something else...
x

However, in fact, Sorc's situation in PVE is also very bad.
VSE HM is the second-to-last among the 7 classes, only better than NB. Ironically, NB and Sorc should be the classes with the highest single target damage according to the setting.
But actually they don't perform well in PVE (according to esologs statistics)
Single-target damage is not effective in the current PVE environment, and the single-target damage of NB and Sorc is not particularly higher than other classes to make up for their lack of AOE.

I upvote suggestions like Remove the 0.3s delay, Add a 3rd effect, Rework the 8% max stam to X% damage done per dagger. But I think the current multi-hit is a good setting, no need to change.

Also, I wish that when Bound Armaments had 4 stacks, it would allow it to do area damage, which should make up for the lack of Sorc AOE at the same time. In addition, the damage attribute of Bound Armaments should also be changed to magic or storm damage, which is more in line with Sorc's professional setting (master of storm and magic!).

MashmalloMan

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

You know Bound Armaments is busted when Stam Sorcs are running Crystal Fragments instead.

That's the saddest part.. but it's 2 fold, also better to use Crystal Frag over Crystal Weapon.

I feel like there is a possible future where we could see a non pet pve build with Haunting Curse + BA + Frag/Weapon.. but pets are just so much easier and more powerful.

MashmalloMan

Here is my Laundry List of Sorc updates I'd like to see:

1. Convert all magical damage to physical/shock.
2. Move Daedric Protection's stam/hp regen to the Capacitor's mag regen passive. Cherry on cake, shift from multiplier to flat regen.
3. Adjust Rebate passive away from sustain. We have 6/12 sustain passives.
4. In place of Rebate or Daedric Protection, introduce a bonus for the number of pets you have and for having no pets at all. Eg. +500 pen per active pet (interacts with sets) and +Damage Done for class skills with no pets (similar to the Templar Solar Barrage buff).
5. Change Haunting Curse from 3.5s to 3s first tick and from 8.5s to 7s 2nd tick to fit within 10s standard. Add Major Breach or Savagery to Haunting Curse.
6. Change Daedric Prey to explode at 5s, but debuff for pet damage lasts for 10s. Add Empower to Daedric Prey, reduce the pet damage buff because it's ridiculously powerful right now.
7. Completely revamp Tormentor to be something people actually want to cast outside right before a fight starts. It's so boring and underused.
8. Do something with Lightning Flood/Liquid Lightning. These are terrible skills, possibly the worst aoe dots in the game of all classes right now. Make them do extra damage to concussed targets... idk, but a buff to this could help non pet sorc dps.
9. Change Power Surge to 30s from 33s, ticks every 2s instead of every 3s.
10. Change Crit Surge to 60s.
11. Changes above we spoke about for Bound Armaments.
12. Never gonna happen, but pets should be 1 bar, nerf them into oblivion for all I care to make it work. If the above changes happen, it wouldn't matter as much.

Sorc needs help in the healing/tanking department as well, but I'm not sure how to tackle that personally. I think for starters.. at least 1 passive to buff healing/tanking in ANY way could be useful lol.

Utt of the Freezing Tomb

StaticWave wrote: »

3 years ago I created this thread to address Bound Armaments being lackluster in PvP:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512264/please-improve-bound-armaments-for-pvp#latest

One of the suggestions I proposed for improving Bound Armaments was to make heavy attacks generate 2 stacks. This took 3 years to implement.

Now I don't know whether ZOS sincerely dislikes Sorc so much or they think this class is doing just fine in PvE to not warrant any serious buffs, but taking 3 years to implement a simple QoL change is something else...

Bound Armaments is currently not competitive in PvP, period. The skill is basically a budget Merciless Resolve, but much worse. Please consider improving its functionality with ONE of the following buff suggestions:

1) Increase the stacks to 5
2) Remove the 0.3s delay
3) Convert the damage into 1 large projectile instead of 4
4) Add a 3rd effect (Merciless Resolve heals while in melee range)
5) Rework the 8% max stam to X% damage done per dagger, up to 5% max

there is only sorc and dk in pvp anymore, so i don't think they doesnt care about sorc. what about necromancer ????

MashmalloMan

Utt of the Freezing Tomb wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

3 years ago I created this thread to address Bound Armaments being lackluster in PvP:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512264/please-improve-bound-armaments-for-pvp#latest

One of the suggestions I proposed for improving Bound Armaments was to make heavy attacks generate 2 stacks. This took 3 years to implement.

Now I don't know whether ZOS sincerely dislikes Sorc so much or they think this class is doing just fine in PvE to not warrant any serious buffs, but taking 3 years to implement a simple QoL change is something else...

Bound Armaments is currently not competitive in PvP, period. The skill is basically a budget Merciless Resolve, but much worse. Please consider improving its functionality with ONE of the following buff suggestions:

1) Increase the stacks to 5
2) Remove the 0.3s delay
3) Convert the damage into 1 large projectile instead of 4
4) Add a 3rd effect (Merciless Resolve heals while in melee range)
5) Rework the 8% max stam to X% damage done per dagger, up to 5% max

there is only sorc and dk in pvp anymore, so i don't think they doesnt care about sorc. what about necromancer ????

Yeah they did you guys dirty the last patch with the Harmony double whammy changes. Worst most jank spammable in the game too. That being said, this is a Sorc thread, no one said anything about Necro. He's specifically speaking about Bound Armaments being a bad skill in comparison to NB Bow Proc.

MashmalloMan

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Now I don't know whether ZOS sincerely dislikes Sorc so much or they think this class is doing just fine in PvE to not warrant any serious buffs, but taking 3 years to implement a simple QoL change is something else...
x

However, in fact, Sorc's situation in PVE is also very bad.
VSE HM is the second-to-last among the 7 classes, only better than NB. Ironically, NB and Sorc should be the classes with the highest single target damage according to the setting.
But actually they don't perform well in PVE (according to esologs statistics)
Single-target damage is not effective in the current PVE environment, and the single-target damage of NB and Sorc is not particularly higher than other classes to make up for their lack of AOE.

I upvote suggestions like Remove the 0.3s delay, Add a 3rd effect, Rework the 8% max stam to X% damage done per dagger. But I think the current multi-hit is a good setting, no need to change.

Also, I wish that when Bound Armaments had 4 stacks, it would allow it to do area damage, which should make up for the lack of Sorc AOE at the same time. In addition, the damage attribute of Bound Armaments should also be changed to magic or storm damage, which is more in line with Sorc's professional setting (master of storm and magic!).

Agreed with the rest.. then you made me fall out of my chair. Stam sorc says hello lol? Are we forgetting this is first and formost a stam sorc morph?Physical damage within the Sorc kit is == to air/wind magic in this game. It already deals physical damage, no change necessary.

What should change is the magic damage on Curse, Crystal Frags and Dark Magic skills to Shock/Physical. There is 0 actual synergies for "Magic" damage for Sorcs, it's just completely out of place.

OBJnoob

Well. There's a lot of suggestions here, about Bound Armaments and other things. Was a little hard to follow so I'm just gonna drop my two cents in the bucket and hope I haven't repeated anyone too much.

First off I don't think it needs to be compared to Assassins Will. Yes, I see why it is similar, but let's talk also about how it isn't similar. The surrounding kit. Sorcs have a lot of delayed burst. It's one of their many notable identities. Every class (except NB, which is worth mentioning in this context as one reason why AW should outperform BA,) has a delayed burst skill. DK has two but they aren't super strong and a lot of people don't use the one. Sorcs on the other hand have Curse, Endless Fury, Crystal Weapon, and BA. Curse is without a doubt delayed burst and Endless Fury, whether used or not, is too. The way Crystal Weapon gets attached to a LA means it can be combined with another spammable, it so chosen, and so is basically delayed burst as well. Especially since it procs twice not once. BA isn't delayed burst but again since it has a travel time and fires 4 times not once it too can be combined with other things making it almost delayed burst. Delayed burst by a thousand cuts, as someone said.

So basically I just want to caution that is if we make BA too good it's just going to lead to sorcs deleting people from a mile away. Not JUST because of the delayed nature of a lot of their skills but also because they have an excellent ability, in streak, to ensure most of these land. My current sorc is a bow stamsorc and the ultimate I use is Ballista. But Overload or Comet both work great too, and need considering in this discussion.

When I Curse someone I normally let it explode the first time just for pressure. That gives me more time to line up burst for the 2nd explosion. So... My 4 stacks of BA are ready... The 2nd curse is gonna blow in 3 or 4 seconds... I LA, cast crystal, LA cast ballista (crystal hits again,) LA Crystal, LA BA, LA Streak. I wrote that kinda funny. In a real fight you seldom have time to do it all but it doesn't matter. Sometimes you have to skip a step... Sometimes you didn't have the Crystal Rythem just right... But we're talking about a lot of damage.

Okay. Lunch time is almost over. I guess all I really wanna say is BA isn't that bad. It isn't that good either, but that's okay. I wouldn't want the way the skill actually works to be adjusted at all. If anything, let the stacks give us like 200 crit rating each until released. Then we'd have the passive buff making it more comparable to AW but not need to ask for some insane instant burst or a ridiculous tooltip.

When comparing, let's not forget AW probably needs to be nerfed. Nothing needs to be like AW. AW should be more like BA.

ZhuJiuyin

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What should change is the magic damage on Curse, Crystal Frags and Dark Magic skills to Shock/Physical. There is 0 actual synergies for "Magic" damage for Sorcs, it's just completely out of place.

But can Shock/Physical represent the identity of the dark magic skill line?
Changing most of Sorc's skills to Shock/Physical would be great if we just needed to get the most out of Energized, but then the Dark Magic skill line would lose its uniqueness, Lightning/Physical/Wind doesn't fit into the dark/magic tradition feature

The description of Crystal Shard is also "Conjure dark crystals", so we should also think about how to retain the feature of "darkness" while enhancing Sorc


Of course, remaking the dark magic skill line is undoubtedly the best option, but it should not be possible in the near future : (


Added: Bound Armaments shouldn't be just a stam morph, as it's more of an attack morph than its predecessor, Bound Armor.
I suggest changing Bound Armaments to something similar to Arcanists' The Imperfect Ring, making Bound Armaments Cost Determined by Lowest Max Resource, and giving Shock or Physical damage depending on the type consumed

JerBearESO

Shouldn't they have some oblivion damage? I mean, not to become OP, or dodge out on their crit synergy, but it seems like they should thematically have oblivion damage in their kit. Idk lore tho maybe I'm just confused because purple

BasP

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Now I don't know whether ZOS sincerely dislikes Sorc so much or they think this class is doing just fine in PvE to not warrant any serious buffs, but taking 3 years to implement a simple QoL change is something else...
x

Single-target damage is not effective in the current PVE environment, and the single-target damage of NB and Sorc is not particularly higher than other classes to make up for their lack of AOE.

I don't have anything meaningful to add to this discussion as Sorcs are my least played class, but I found this new video from Skinny Cheeks (and the CMX) interesting.

138K DPS (with Bound Armaments being the second best damaging ability) is nothing to sneeze at, though it of course doesn't change the fact that single-target damage isn't as effective in PvE.

ZhuJiuyin

BasP wrote: »

I don't have anything meaningful to add to this discussion as Sorcs are my least played class, but I found this new video from Skinny Cheeks (and the CMX) interesting.

138K DPS (with Bound Armaments being the second best damaging ability) is nothing to sneeze at, though it of course doesn't change the fact that single-target damage isn't as effective in PvE.

I think the analysis based on the test dummies does not represent the current PVE environment. This can be confirmed from the ranking of esologs. The top rankings are all classes with strong AOE capabilities.

And if my DPS is only 100K, but all my skills (or most of them) are AOE, then I can easily get more than 100K damage in a multi-target situation, maybe 150K?
Therefore, assuming that a class with multiple AOE skills can get 150K damage in an actual combat environment, it is only fair that Sorc and NB should at least have 150K damage to a single target. But excessive single-target damage will definitely affect the balance of PVP.

So I think the best way is to enhance the AOE capabilities of Sorc and NB, such as strengthening Lightning Splash, Shattering Prison, and Twisting Path, so that they become stronger and more reliable sources of AOE damage.

Tannus15

Sorc is, and should be, a single target monster. I'm 100% fine with sorc being weak in cleave if they are leading the pack at single target.

I wish mag sorc was hitting as hard as stam sorc, but it is what it is. The lightning staff change and the aegis backbar buff is the first set of changes i've seen in a long time which actually help out mag sorc in PvE.

phaneub17_ESO

Getting hit by 2 blades slows enemy movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds, getting hit by 3 blades sets them off balance for 7 seconds seconds, getting hit by 4 blades knocks down lesser enemies. I would think the impact of 4 rapid strikes would knock anyone off their feet. Powerful Foes unaffected.

ZhuJiuyin

Tannus15 wrote: »

Sorc is, and should be, a single target monster. I'm 100% fine with sorc being weak in cleave if they are leading the pack at single target.

I wish mag sorc was hitting as hard as stam sorc, but it is what it is. The lightning staff change and the aegis backbar buff is the first set of changes i've seen in a long time which actually help out mag sorc in PvE.

I agree that if sorc is ahead on single target then it can't make their AOE too strong.

But the current situation is that Sorc's advantage in single target is not enough to make up for their disadvantage in AOE. In particular, magic sorc lacks reliable AOE, especially the lack of long-range AOE. According to esolog's statistics, the AOE most used by magic sorc is Wall of Elements (non-class skills), Curse (causes light damage to surrounding targets), Hurricane (needs time to grow, and is in melee range), plus .. .Well, if Summon Volatile Familiar is also counted, that is 3 AOE skills from class plus Wall of Elements, a total of 4.

Then let's look at other Classes, Arcanists have The Languid Eye, Fatecarver, Abyssal Impact, The Imperfect Ring, 4 AOE from their own class, plus Wall of Elements is 5.

DK has Dragonknight Standard, Engulfing Flames, Flames of Oblivion, Burning Talons, Eruption, Engulfing Flames and many other common AOE in PVE.

Templar has Puncturing Sweep, Ritual of Retribution, Solar Barrage, Blazing Spear, at least 4 AOE from their own class.


Among the above-mentioned AOE, most of them are not like Curse, except for the main target, which only causes slight AOE damage, and it does not take time to grow like Hurricane.


The change of lightning staff may indeed help magic sorc, but considering that among the AOE sources of magic sorc, only Curse is direct damage, and Curse's AOE damage is low, I don't think the change of lightning staff will help magic sorc improve AOE ability.
As for the change of firefighting staff, for the magic sorc with less dot damage type, the improvement is not particularly huge, especially when other classes can get the same buff as long as they have lightning or flame staff.

Therefore, it is still necessary to improve from sorc's class skills, such as letting Curse deal full AOE damage instead of the current slight damage except for the main target.
As for sorc's passive Energized, since the proportion of Shock Damage in sorc's skills is actually not high, we should also try to buff Lightning Splash so that sorc has a better source of Shock Damage.
And Shattering Prison should probably also become a sorc version of Fulminating Rune, apply Shock Damage dots to targets in the area, and immobilize enemies on The second dot hit.

It is not necessary to achieve all of them, but as long as one or two of them are improved, the AOE ability of magic socr can have better quality.

WreckfulAbandon

Be careful what you wish for as there is a definite history of things being slightly overbuffed for a cycle or two then being utterly overnerfed for a year or four.