Right .. so instead of fixing/buffing Nightblades, you nerf them even more?

MudcrabAttack

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

What are you talking about?

https://youtu.be/esPShkc2CSI

They give Minor and Major Cowardice which are both unique, then Minor Vulnerability, and Major Expedition with both Minor Endurance and Intellect.

All of their buffs and debuffs are AoE. Nightblade is an incredible support right now, easily top 3. You don’t see them because it breaks the roleplay people have created for the class. Nobody wants to be the tank or healer on an assassin class.

That’s strange, I didn’t have any luck getting major cowardice from hysteria to work on bosses when I tested, did something change?

Tyrant_Tim

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

What are you talking about?

https://youtu.be/esPShkc2CSI

They give Minor and Major Cowardice which are both unique, then Minor Vulnerability, and Major Expedition with both Minor Endurance and Intellect.

All of their buffs and debuffs are AoE. Nightblade is an incredible support right now, easily top 3. You don’t see them because it breaks the roleplay people have created for the class. Nobody wants to be the tank or healer on an assassin class.

That’s strange, I didn’t have any luck getting major cowardice from hysteria to work on bosses when I tested, did something change?

It always has worked on bosses, why did you come to the conclusion it wasn’t working? Did it say, “target immune”?

If so, it was due to the stun not applying, if you have your debuff bars enabled, you’ll see the logo.

emilyhyoyeon

Why are we still talking about mass hysteria

https://youtu.be/DI2aBTAXBUA?t=1019

Foxtrot39

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Thats 2983 for power extraction for 10s, a skill thats worthless as tank + Mass Hysteria 3780 for 15s

So it cost a whooping 6763 magicka to last 10s and burn your primary healing ressource

Bolestering darkness need a total makeover, it bolster only disapointement at all levels

If you’re running a Nightblade tank and you’re not running all of those things, excluding Bolstering Darkness because that ability is a meme, you’re doing it wrong. I offered earlier, that if anyone is struggling as a Nightblade support, I would be more than willing to help. That offer still stands.

First bit of advice, run the monster set Nazaray.
That monster set was made for Nightblade.
Longer up-times equate to less cost.



There is no class better at debuffing enemies than a Nightblade, and choosing to not use debuffs like Minor Cowardice, that also give you Minor Courage and Brutality, stats that affect your survivability by buffing your heals while giving your tank some damage to add to the overall group DPS, is nothing short of a lack of fundamental understanding of how weapon and spell damage effect gameplay.

Power Extraction is hands down the most efficient skill in the game. There isn’t one that provides more benefit than it… it’s more loaded than Mass Hysteria, but it’s more spread out.

Forgot to mention Power Extraction costs Stamina, not Magicka, might want to revise your math on that.

Ah yeah was too much used with sap essence I forgot the other morph is stam

Also my main healing source is a combination of dark cloack and master S&B which have no damage scaling

master_vanargand

If I were a tank in PvE, I wouldn't want to waste magicka or stamina.
Mass Hysteria and Power Extraction are useless.
Only perma block is enough.

StaticWave

What if ZOS buffs Twisting Path’s duration to 15-20s to allow NBs more casts of their spammable/Merciless Resolve and also increase the damage? It’s somewhat similar to how Warden’s DPS increased significantly several years ago when Sub Assault could recast itself and free up a GCD.

Could also increase the damage for Cripple too.

TybaltKaine

One minor quibble.

Soul Tether has a synergy that heals and deals damage, I wouldn't call it selfish in the least.

MudcrabAttack

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

What are you talking about?

https://youtu.be/esPShkc2CSI

They give Minor and Major Cowardice which are both unique, then Minor Vulnerability, and Major Expedition with both Minor Endurance and Intellect.

All of their buffs and debuffs are AoE. Nightblade is an incredible support right now, easily top 3. You don’t see them because it breaks the roleplay people have created for the class. Nobody wants to be the tank or healer on an assassin class.

That’s strange, I didn’t have any luck getting major cowardice from hysteria to work on bosses when I tested, did something change?

It always has worked on bosses, why did you come to the conclusion it wasn’t working? Did it say, “target immune”?

If so, it was due to the stun not applying, if you have your debuff bars enabled, you’ll see the logo.

Because I tested hysteria several months ago and the last boss in asylum sanctorium hit for the same amount of damage with or without using it

Foxtrot39

master_vanargand wrote: »

If I were a tank in PvE, I wouldn't want to waste magicka or stamina.
Mass Hysteria and Power Extraction are useless.
Only perma block is enough.

vCR gryphon says hello

Tyrant_Tim

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Why are we still talking about mass hysteria

https://youtu.be/DI2aBTAXBUA?t=1019

If you watched that video you would recognize that he valued each class by “ease of play,” not the value the classes bring. Nightblade tank is not easy to play whatsoever. The class has no health-based burst heal, which causes you to be dependent on a healer in extremely high pressure content.

Difficulty of play and benefit to your group are independent variables. Having a Nightblade tank or healer in a more heavily leaning stamina group, is meta in 4-man due to Minor Savagery, completely independent from the massive value they bring to trials.

Don’t believe it? We can get on PTS and run any hard mode in the game, and I’ll play the Nightblade.

reazea

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Why are we still talking about mass hysteria

https://youtu.be/DI2aBTAXBUA?t=1019

If you watched that video you would recognize that he valued each class by “ease of play,” not the value the classes bring. Nightblade tank is not easy to play whatsoever. The class has no health-based burst heal, which causes you to be dependent on a healer in extremely high pressure content.

Difficulty of play and benefit to your group are independent variables. Having a Nightblade tank or healer in a more heavily leaning stamina group, is meta in 4-man due to Minor Savagery, completely independent from the massive value they bring to trials.

Don’t believe it? We can get on PTS and run any hard mode in the game, and I’ll play the Nightblade.

So don't try to tank or heal with an NB. There is supposed to be some division of labor between the classes. NB is set up to be DPS, and they excel at dps more than most other classes. To tank be a DK, warden or templar.

Tyrant_Tim

reazea wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Why are we still talking about mass hysteria

https://youtu.be/DI2aBTAXBUA?t=1019

If you watched that video you would recognize that he valued each class by “ease of play,” not the value the classes bring. Nightblade tank is not easy to play whatsoever. The class has no health-based burst heal, which causes you to be dependent on a healer in extremely high pressure content.

Difficulty of play and benefit to your group are independent variables. Having a Nightblade tank or healer in a more heavily leaning stamina group, is meta in 4-man due to Minor Savagery, completely independent from the massive value they bring to trials.

Don’t believe it? We can get on PTS and run any hard mode in the game, and I’ll play the Nightblade.

So don't try to tank or heal with an NB. There is supposed to be some division of labor between the classes. NB is set up to be DPS, and they excel at dps more than most other classes. To tank be a DK, warden or templar.

Nightblades are better supports than damage dealers right now, funny enough.

emilyhyoyeon

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Why are we still talking about mass hysteria

https://youtu.be/DI2aBTAXBUA?t=1019

If you watched that video you would recognize that he valued each class by “ease of play,” not the value the classes bring. Nightblade tank is not easy to play whatsoever. The class has no health-based burst heal, which causes you to be dependent on a healer in extremely high pressure content.

Difficulty of play and benefit to your group are independent variables. Having a Nightblade tank or healer in a more heavily leaning stamina group, is meta in 4-man due to Minor Savagery, completely independent from the massive value they bring to trials.

Don’t believe it? We can get on PTS and run any hard mode in the game, and I’ll play the Nightblade.

Trial DD rankings are not for ease of play... Timestamp 16:10 ...

That's what everyone asking for NB PVE buffs is asking for.

Is that where the misunderstanding is? You know that people are asking for NB PVE DD buffs right?

Tyrant_Tim

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Why are we still talking about mass hysteria

https://youtu.be/DI2aBTAXBUA?t=1019

If you watched that video you would recognize that he valued each class by “ease of play,” not the value the classes bring. Nightblade tank is not easy to play whatsoever. The class has no health-based burst heal, which causes you to be dependent on a healer in extremely high pressure content.

Difficulty of play and benefit to your group are independent variables. Having a Nightblade tank or healer in a more heavily leaning stamina group, is meta in 4-man due to Minor Savagery, completely independent from the massive value they bring to trials.

Don’t believe it? We can get on PTS and run any hard mode in the game, and I’ll play the Nightblade.

Trial DD rankings are not for ease of play... Timestamp 16:10 ...

That's what everyone asking for NB PVE buffs is asking for.

Is that where the misunderstanding is? You know that people are asking for NB PVE DD buffs right?

My chain of posts defending Nightblade support’s position, lead from a claim that Nightblade tanks and healers were lacking and needed a buff.

They don’t.

As far as damage, I have agreed every step of the way that Nightblade needs a change to how they go about damage. In fantasy games, the Rogue and Mage are typically the best at cleaning up adds and both Nightblade and Sorcerer have some of the weakest cleave in the game.

emilyhyoyeon

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Why are we still talking about mass hysteria

https://youtu.be/DI2aBTAXBUA?t=1019

If you watched that video you would recognize that he valued each class by “ease of play,” not the value the classes bring. Nightblade tank is not easy to play whatsoever. The class has no health-based burst heal, which causes you to be dependent on a healer in extremely high pressure content.

Difficulty of play and benefit to your group are independent variables. Having a Nightblade tank or healer in a more heavily leaning stamina group, is meta in 4-man due to Minor Savagery, completely independent from the massive value they bring to trials.

Don’t believe it? We can get on PTS and run any hard mode in the game, and I’ll play the Nightblade.

Trial DD rankings are not for ease of play... Timestamp 16:10 ...

That's what everyone asking for NB PVE buffs is asking for.

Is that where the misunderstanding is? You know that people are asking for NB PVE DD buffs right?

My chain of posts defending Nightblade support’s position, lead from a claim that Nightblade tanks and healers were lacking and needed a buff.

You quoted my post?

Tyrant_Tim

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

there's no way we're implying NB is a good place right now in PVE because of things like major cowardice... NB tanks are not used right now and NB healers are not used for mass hysteria; they don't even run it.

Cowardice can be useful for unorganized groups. I used mass hysteria a lot when I played my NB tank in dungeon groups.

But major cowardice is not what that person meant when they said ''special group buffs;'' that's referring to buffs like necro's major vulnerability.

Did you forget about this? You attacked the main unique debuff that the class brings to the table, then I had to reiterate about 20 times that 11% is bigger than 10%, and that 3,780 Magicka is less expensive than 200 ultimate.

As far as my stance on damage dealing…

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

One problem with Nightblade as damage dealers, would be that they lack the cleave necessary to compete with top damage dealers right now.

If that’s to be addressed, something as easy as standardizing the DoTs from Lotus Fan and Twisting Path would cover it completely.

emilyhyoyeon

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

there's no way we're implying NB is a good place right now in PVE because of things like major cowardice... NB tanks are not used right now and NB healers are not used for mass hysteria; they don't even run it.

Cowardice can be useful for unorganized groups. I used mass hysteria a lot when I played my NB tank in dungeon groups.

But major cowardice is not what that person meant when they said ''special group buffs;'' that's referring to buffs like necro's major vulnerability.

Did you forget about this? You attacked the main unique debuff that the class brings to the table, then I had to reiterate about 20 times that 11% is bigger than 10%, and that 3,780 Magicka is less expensive than 200 ultimate.

What do you mean did I forget about that? That was days, and like 20+ posts, ago, and I didn't even quote anything back. I didn't even quote you

Tyrant_Tim

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

there's no way we're implying NB is a good place right now in PVE because of things like major cowardice... NB tanks are not used right now and NB healers are not used for mass hysteria; they don't even run it.

Cowardice can be useful for unorganized groups. I used mass hysteria a lot when I played my NB tank in dungeon groups.

But major cowardice is not what that person meant when they said ''special group buffs;'' that's referring to buffs like necro's major vulnerability.

Did you forget about this? You attacked the main unique debuff that the class brings to the table, then I had to reiterate about 20 times that 11% is bigger than 10%, and that 3,780 Magicka is less expensive than 200 ultimate.

What do you mean did I forget about that? That was days, and like 20+ posts, ago, and I didn't even quote anything back. I didn't even quote you

Yet I was the one who brought up Major Cowardice to begin with? If you’re going to discredit the use of an ability that I’m using as a platform, I’m going to discredit your argument against it.

Either way, my points were made and backed with numbers and an invitation to the PTS, worst case scenario, you don’t take my invite to the Nightblade tank experience… we still both agree Nightblade damage dealers need love and hopefully their role in the game can be solidified.

emilyhyoyeon

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

there's no way we're implying NB is a good place right now in PVE because of things like major cowardice... NB tanks are not used right now and NB healers are not used for mass hysteria; they don't even run it.

Cowardice can be useful for unorganized groups. I used mass hysteria a lot when I played my NB tank in dungeon groups.

But major cowardice is not what that person meant when they said ''special group buffs;'' that's referring to buffs like necro's major vulnerability.

Did you forget about this? You attacked the main unique debuff that the class brings to the table, then I had to reiterate about 20 times that 11% is bigger than 10%, and that 3,780 Magicka is less expensive than 200 ultimate.

What do you mean did I forget about that? That was days, and like 20+ posts, ago, and I didn't even quote anything back. I didn't even quote you

Yet I was the one who brought up Major Cowardice to begin with? If you’re going to discredit the use of an ability that I’m using as a platform, I’m going to discredit your argument against it.

Either way, my points were made and backed with numbers and an invitation the the PTS, worst case scenario, you don’t take my invite to the Nightblade tank experience… we still both agree Nightblade damage dealers need love and hopefully their role in the game can be solidified.

I'm not understanding what's happening here. My post with the nefas video wasn't directed at you. Again, I didn't quote you. I asked ''why are we still talking about mass hysteria'' because, yeah, I am wondering why everyone's still talking about that


edit: I just noticed my timestamp didn't work when I posted the vid link; vid was supposed to jump directly to 16:10 and probably would've saved from the confusion/made it obvious I was talking on a different topic, about NB DD

Zastrix

Kekw no luck this PTS cycle boys, yes another nerf to nightblades in PvE.

Foxtrot39

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

What are you talking about?

https://youtu.be/esPShkc2CSI

They give Minor and Major Cowardice which are both unique, then Minor Vulnerability, and Major Expedition with both Minor Endurance and Intellect.

All of their buffs and debuffs are AoE. Nightblade is an incredible support right now, easily top 3. You don’t see them because it breaks the roleplay people have created for the class. Nobody wants to be the tank or healer on an assassin class.

That’s strange, I didn’t have any luck getting major cowardice from hysteria to work on bosses when I tested, did something change?

It always has worked on bosses, why did you come to the conclusion it wasn’t working? Did it say, “target immune”?

If so, it was due to the stun not applying, if you have your debuff bars enabled, you’ll see the logo.

Because I tested hysteria several months ago and the last boss in asylum sanctorium hit for the same amount of damage with or without using it

Just tested today on nAS

Major resolve with no debuffs (because NB passive is activated with mass hysteria)




Major resolve with both cowardice debuffs





so (7636*100)/9154=~83.4=~16.6% damage reduction from the debuffs alone

Tyrant_Tim

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

What are you talking about?

https://youtu.be/esPShkc2CSI

They give Minor and Major Cowardice which are both unique, then Minor Vulnerability, and Major Expedition with both Minor Endurance and Intellect.

All of their buffs and debuffs are AoE. Nightblade is an incredible support right now, easily top 3. You don’t see them because it breaks the roleplay people have created for the class. Nobody wants to be the tank or healer on an assassin class.

That’s strange, I didn’t have any luck getting major cowardice from hysteria to work on bosses when I tested, did something change?

It always has worked on bosses, why did you come to the conclusion it wasn’t working? Did it say, “target immune”?

If so, it was due to the stun not applying, if you have your debuff bars enabled, you’ll see the logo.

Because I tested hysteria several months ago and the last boss in asylum sanctorium hit for the same amount of damage with or without using it

Just tested today on nAS

Major resolve with no debuffs (because NB passive is activated with mass hysteria)




Major resolve with both cowardice debuffs





so (7636*100)/9154=~83.4=~16.6% damage reduction from the debuffs alone

So 11% from Major Cowardice and 5.6% from Minor Cowardice. Nice.

Much more accessible than waiting around to spend 200 ultimate for Major Maim or group-wide Major Protection, just to miss out on Major Force or Vulnerability.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Thats 2983 for power extraction for 10s, a skill thats worthless as tank + Mass Hysteria 3780 for 15s

So it cost a whooping 6763 magicka to last 10s and burn your primary healing ressource

Bolestering darkness need a total makeover, it bolster only disapointement at all levels

If you’re running a Nightblade tank and you’re not running all of those things, excluding Bolstering Darkness because that ability is a meme, you’re doing it wrong. I offered earlier, that if anyone is struggling as a Nightblade support, I would be more than willing to help. That offer still stands.

First bit of advice, run the monster set Nazaray.
That monster set was made for Nightblade.
Longer up-times equate to less cost.



There is no class better at debuffing enemies than a Nightblade, and choosing to not use debuffs like Minor Cowardice, that also give you Minor Courage and Brutality, stats that affect your survivability by buffing your heals while giving your tank some damage to add to the overall group DPS, is nothing short of a lack of fundamental understanding of how weapon and spell damage effect gameplay.

Power Extraction is hands down the most efficient skill in the game. There isn’t one that provides more benefit than it… it’s more loaded than Mass Hysteria, but it’s more spread out.

Forgot to mention Power Extraction costs Stamina, not Magicka, might want to revise your math on that.

I would be interested to hear some ideas and advice for a nightblade tank, if possible.

Tyrant_Tim

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Thats 2983 for power extraction for 10s, a skill thats worthless as tank + Mass Hysteria 3780 for 15s

So it cost a whooping 6763 magicka to last 10s and burn your primary healing ressource

Bolestering darkness need a total makeover, it bolster only disapointement at all levels

If you’re running a Nightblade tank and you’re not running all of those things, excluding Bolstering Darkness because that ability is a meme, you’re doing it wrong. I offered earlier, that if anyone is struggling as a Nightblade support, I would be more than willing to help. That offer still stands.

First bit of advice, run the monster set Nazaray.
That monster set was made for Nightblade.
Longer up-times equate to less cost.



There is no class better at debuffing enemies than a Nightblade, and choosing to not use debuffs like Minor Cowardice, that also give you Minor Courage and Brutality, stats that affect your survivability by buffing your heals while giving your tank some damage to add to the overall group DPS, is nothing short of a lack of fundamental understanding of how weapon and spell damage effect gameplay.

Power Extraction is hands down the most efficient skill in the game. There isn’t one that provides more benefit than it… it’s more loaded than Mass Hysteria, but it’s more spread out.

Forgot to mention Power Extraction costs Stamina, not Magicka, might want to revise your math on that.

I would be interested to hear some ideas and advice for a nightblade tank, if possible.

After work I can upload a build video and I’ll post the link in here. If you want to start hunting sets, any debuffs that get extended by Nazaray are great.

On my tank, I pair it with Turning Tide to ensure a high up-time on Major Vulnerability which works great with the AoE Minor Vuln you get from Lotus Fan, and Crimson Oath for the penetration lacking on Medium Armor. Now that Arcanists have Minor Courage, having an Arcanist healer in group displaces Yolo.

Nightblade tank works best with primarily Stamina comp groups, due to it’s Minor Savagery.

Zastrix

Yep nithblade DDs just got a 10% nerf while being one of the most under-performing classes. Thanks for the improved communication ZOS. I'm glad you did better this patch like how you did better for the past 2 years.

Tyrant_Tim

@Suna_Ye_Sunnabe https://youtu.be/OWvK6i4aNQ4

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Suna_Ye_Sunnabe https://youtu.be/OWvK6i4aNQ4

Thanks!

Tyrant_Tim

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Suna_Ye_Sunnabe https://youtu.be/OWvK6i4aNQ4

Thanks!

No problem, I had fun with the video. Essentially you just want to get all of your debuffs out before you use your ultimate, to get insane up-time. Feel free to tweak the traits and enchantments on the armor and jewelry to your preference, with that specific build, being over resistance cap, you could swap the reinforced chest for sturdy or infused.

What’s great about the build, is that it works in both dungeons and trials, although if you’re running dungeons, be sure to have an Arcanist in your group providing Minor Courage.

Zastrix

Before I get a PvP reply, this is a comment for PvE!

The thread did deviate from the original thread/topic. Either way; I really hope that ZoS doesn't go through with these changes by gimping nightblades even more. It's a permanent 10% damage nerf to stamblades (which are bottom tier) and a situational nerf to magblades (it's 10% if you have a sorc in group).

I really hope that they do something like move the unnamed buff to the base skill or apply this change while altering passives / reaper's mark for an additional 10-15% damage increase in PvE which nightblade DDs REALLY need!

Sikon

You guys know if this is still the case? Was it intendet by @ZOS or is it just another bug that appeared. Nothing said in Patchnotes about this "Ninja Nerf". If you have to move while parsing it would be even worse for NB than ever before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfZFNYA-dqQ