Right .. so instead of fixing/buffing Nightblades, you nerf them even more?

Eliran

If the devs aren't trolling at this point then I don't know anymore.

Weckless

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

GooGa592

NB's are being buffed with U39. And they are already one of the most powerful classes in the game. They are far, far stronger than templar or necro's already and they're being made even stronger with the next update.

Orchish

Are we playing the same game?

Lykeion

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

In terms of PVE, almost everywhere. Take for example the typical Parsing Boss, If you check Yolnahkriin HM on esolog, you won't find any NBs on the first page because the first NB is at #102. Also, NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

Tyrant_Tim

Lykeion wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

What are you talking about?

https://youtu.be/esPShkc2CSI

They give Minor and Major Cowardice which are both unique, then Minor Vulnerability, and Major Expedition with both Minor Endurance and Intellect.

All of their buffs and debuffs are AoE. Nightblade is an incredible support right now, easily top 3. You don’t see them because it breaks the roleplay people have created for the class. Nobody wants to be the tank or healer on an assassin class.

Lykeion

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

What are you talking about?

They give Minor and Major Cowardice which are both unique, then Minor Vulnerability, and Major Expedition with both Minor Endurance and Intellect.

All of their buffs and debuffs are AoE. Nightblade is an incredible support right now, easily top 3. You don’t see them because it breaks the roleplay people have created for the class. Nobody wants to be the tank or healer on an assassin class.

Who is using Minor and Major Cowardice may I ask? I've never seen anyone use Major Cowardice in anything but the most endgame pve content like SBS, and people were doing the same content with Vykosa before U35, before Minor and Major Cowardice were added to NB. None of this is unique.

StaticWave

This is obviously PvE vs PvP. Completely unrelated balance discussion.

I think a good way to address PvE without over buffing PvP is by improving NB class DoTs. Almost no NB in PvP is using DoTs, so it wouldn’t affect PvP noticeably.

TechMaybeHic

They could really take a lot from PvP instant damage single target and move to AOE and DOTs on the class and make NB better for PvE, but should it be? I honestly don't know.

Seems the assassin class has everything but PvE parsing. Single target burst should be it's thing and it already has great healing PvP side it probably shouldn't. Seems they have stated other classes shouldhave tradeoffs, so what should be the tradeoff for NB? Or DK for another matter

exoib

Nightblades are in a good spot, yes major berserk might seem like a nerf in organized pve situations, but their kit already has unique debuffs and unique major resolve passive. Change to grim focus is being welcomed by 90% of the player base, excellent change. In PvP situations major berserk is hard to come by, so it's a welcome change for solo nightblade PvPers. People have to stop looking only at their own playstyles and think about the entire playerbase when addressing any change.

The only two things I personally feel nightblades need a change are:

1) Reaper's mark, remove it's cost and give some unique damage bonus instead of major berserk, for an extended period of time (atleast 30 seconds). Since it has a kill condition, I feel the damage bonus shouldn't be only 10 seconds or ridiculous as 60 seconds. 30 seconds is a good middle ground.

2) Veiled strike (the base morph) The base morph should provide minor expedition for slotting it at this point it's the only thing holding surprise attack behind concealed weapon in many situations. This was previously mentioned by @Decimus in another thread. He also mentioned about the magicka flood passive not giving any bonuses to stamina which is another remnant of incomplete hybridization. Thank you for reading.

Tyrant_Tim

Lykeion wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Come again lol. Where do we need buffing?

NBs are not popular healers/tanks since they give no special group buff.

What are you talking about?

They give Minor and Major Cowardice which are both unique, then Minor Vulnerability, and Major Expedition with both Minor Endurance and Intellect.

All of their buffs and debuffs are AoE. Nightblade is an incredible support right now, easily top 3. You don’t see them because it breaks the roleplay people have created for the class. Nobody wants to be the tank or healer on an assassin class.

Who is using Minor and Major Cowardice may I ask? I've never seen anyone use Major Cowardice in anything but the most endgame pve content like SBS, and people were doing the same content with Vykosa before U35, before Minor and Major Cowardice were added to NB. None of this is unique.

Name one other ability in the game with a source of Major Cowardice, a debuff of up to 30% damage reduction in PvE. Any time a class has access to a buff or debuff through a skill, that others do not, it’s unique. Speaking of which, a value as strong as that, is great in all forms of content. That’s a whole 5-piece set that you can strip from other players if you run it in PvP, you just took New Moon Acolyte from someone and now they’re stuck with the increased costs.

Not to mention; you could equip a 2-piece that gives you half up-time, or you could run Mass Hysteria and keep it up 100%.



Major Cowardice is great everywhere, not just the top-end trials, it’s phenomenal in any tri-fecta push. Educate yourself, watch that video.

Lykeion

StaticWave wrote: »

This is obviously PvE vs PvP. Completely unrelated balance discussion.

Yes, when you try to start a discussion on one side alone there will always be people with arguments from the other side, which often makes the discussion fragmented and biased before it becomes constructive.I wouldn't say the people involved in such discussion did wrong, because the root cause of this is ZOS's longstanding refusal to balance independently for PVE/PVP. But still, this makes me upset.

emilyhyoyeon

there's no way we're implying NB is a good place right now in PVE because of things like major cowardice... NB tanks are not used right now and NB healers are not used for mass hysteria; they don't even run it.

Cowardice can be useful for unorganized groups. I used mass hysteria a lot when I played my NB tank in dungeon groups.

But major cowardice is not what that person meant when they said ''special group buffs;'' that's referring to buffs like necro's major vulnerability.

FirmamentOfStars

Deserved nerf from a PvP perspective. Too many multiplicative buffs on the class made it hit insanely hard.

Tyrant_Tim

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

there's no way we're implying NB is a good place right now in PVE because of things like major cowardice... NB tanks are not used right now and NB healers are not used for mass hysteria; they don't even run it.

Cowardice can be useful for unorganized groups. I used mass hysteria a lot when I played my NB tank in dungeon groups.

But major cowardice is not what that person meant when they said ''special group buffs;'' that's referring to buffs like necro's major vulnerability.

Major Cowardice is amazing in organized groups.

It’s an inverted Major Courage. Is Major Courage negligible? If so, why isn’t it attached to an ability in game? I mean both Major Cowardice and Courage have the same 430 weapon and spell damage value, so if one is game-changing, it goes without saying that the other is likewise.

Major Cowardice applies up to 30% damage mitigation in an AoE with an uncapped stun attached to the ability, making even the most difficult add pulls completely trivial.

That mindset where adding damage as a support is the only type of support that matters, is a very toxic gatekeeping mindset. That’s like saying that if a group prefers more survivability to get a trifecta, that they don’t deserve it?

Are Nightblade supports cheat codes?

Achieving deathless runs aren’t a DPS race as much as they are a survivability check, especially when players are hitting over the damage requirements to clear content to begin with.

• Templar has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Solar Disturbance.
• Warden has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Permafrost.

Nightblade has an active skill, Mass Hysteria, an ability that costs 3,780 magicka that applies up to 30% mitigation for 12 seconds.

That’s more than both the Templar and Warden’s ultimate’s group utility combined. That’s completely ignoring the AoE Minor Cowardice further mitigating for the group, AoE Minor Vulnerability increasing the damage everyone does, AoE Major Expedition drastically increasing the speed of your group, and AoE Minor Endurance and Intellect applying resources to the group to keep up with all of their other buffs that are so casually granted to the class.

I play a Nightblade tank, and have cleared every HM except for the last three trials, which I haven’t attempted. Nightblade support is incredible, and doesn’t need any more buffs. If you’re struggling to find a build that works, feel free to ask questions.

Tyrant_Tim

One problem with Nightblade as damage dealers, would be that they lack the cleave necessary to compete with top damage dealers right now.

If that’s to be addressed, something as easy as standardizing the DoTs from Lotus Fan and Twisting Path would cover it completely.

Lykeion

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice is great everywhere, not just the top-end trials, it’s phenomenal in any tri-fecta push. Educate yourself, watch that video.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice applies up to 30% damage mitigation in an AoE with an uncapped stun attached to the ability, making even the most difficult add pulls completely trivial.

That mindset where adding damage as a support is the only type of support that matters, is a very toxic gatekeeping mindset. That’s like saying that if a group prefers more survivability to get a trifecta, that they don’t deserve it?

Are Nightblade supports cheat codes?.

Achieving deathless runs aren’t a DPS race as much as they are a survivability check, especially when players are hitting over the damage requirements to clear content to begin with.
Templar has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Solar Disturbance.
Warden has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Permafrost.

Nightblade has an active skill, Mass Hysteria, an ability that costs 3,780 magicka that applies up to 30% mitigation for 12 seconds.

I don't mean to be rude, but have you actually watched the Hyperioxes test video you shared yourself? Hyperioxes clearly states at the beginning that Major Cowardice's effect fluctuates between 7% and 30% depending on the boss and build.30% is the value obtained in very extreme cases, and in most of the cases it's closer to 11%. Your over-exaggeration of this extreme case seems to be intentionally misleading.

I was one of the first NB players to prepare for SBS, and I had already tested Major Cowardice on different bosses long before Hyper posted the video. It performs well in some situations where it will deal high damage to all team members(which is why SBS after U35 will often use NB healer), but it's not needed in the vast majority of combats other than that. And the latest SBS playstyle has tried to replace NB Healer with Arcanist Healer + Ozezan with great success, fyi

master_vanargand

PvE Nightblade DPS is said to be over 10% weaker than top tier classes.
And Nightblade is 10% weaker as Major Berserk is gained from sorc's atro ult.
What can be said for sure is that Nightblade DPS has become the weakest class in PvE.

ZoS want to annihilate PvE Nightblade DPS?
DPS ... no! Healer ... no! Tank ... DK and Necro!
What should PvE Nightblade do? Answer: Nothing.

Tyrant_Tim

Lykeion wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice is great everywhere, not just the top-end trials, it’s phenomenal in any tri-fecta push. Educate yourself, watch that video.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice applies up to 30% damage mitigation in an AoE with an uncapped stun attached to the ability, making even the most difficult add pulls completely trivial.

That mindset where adding damage as a support is the only type of support that matters, is a very toxic gatekeeping mindset. That’s like saying that if a group prefers more survivability to get a trifecta, that they don’t deserve it?

Are Nightblade supports cheat codes?.

Achieving deathless runs aren’t a DPS race as much as they are a survivability check, especially when players are hitting over the damage requirements to clear content to begin with.
Templar has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Solar Disturbance.
Warden has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Permafrost.

Nightblade has an active skill, Mass Hysteria, an ability that costs 3,780 magicka that applies up to 30% mitigation for 12 seconds.

I don't mean to be rude, but have you actually watched the Hyperioxes test video you shared yourself? Hyperioxes clearly states at the beginning that Major Cowardice's effect fluctuates between 7% and 30% depending on the boss and build.30% is the value obtained in very extreme cases, and in most of the cases it's closer to 11%. Your over-exaggeration of this extreme case seems to be intentionally misleading.

I was one of the first NB players to prepare for SBS, and I had already tested Major Cowardice on different bosses long before Hyper posted the video. It performs well in some situations where it will deal high damage to all team members(which is why SBS after U35 will often use NB healer), but it's not needed in the vast majority of combats other than that. And the latest SBS playstyle has tried to replace NB Healer with Arcanist Healer + Ozezan with great success, fyi

I specifically said “Up to 30%” every time I mentioned the ability because that is the fact surrounding the debuff; not an assumption or exaggeration, how disingenuous of you to say otherwise.

Every other debuff of damage is a flat percentage, except for Cowardice. What you failed to understand when watching the video is that for the overwhelmingly vast majority of content, you will achieve better results than every defensive support ultimate in the game that provides Major Protection or Major Maim, values of 10%.

In regards to your claim of an over-exaggeration; is it an exaggeration to state that having active abilities that provide the benefit of an ultimate are over-performing?

To claim the ability has an average of 11% out of the 30% that it’s capable of; is completely dependent on the content that Hyperioxes used to test the debuff.

Which might I remind you, 11% is still greater than 10%, the flat percentage value of an ultimate for other classes, each of which costing over 200 ultimate forcing minimal up-times.

Extremely rare debuffs that cost 200+ ultimate on other classes are available to Nightblade for 3,780 magicka.

Let’s be funny about it, we can bring up Bolstering Darkness…



Even on Nightblade, a 10% damage mitigation is 200+ ultimate. Mass Hysteria’s 3,780 magicka cost contradicts Bolstering Darkness’s 200 ultimate cost.

If I wanted to sabotage my Nazaray Crimson Tide Nightblade… we could be honest and shine a light on the fact that Nightblade support is over-performing, and go one step further to say that until there’s class parity, having one or two classes with this heavily loaded of a kit is an affront to any sort of balance.

But I enjoy my character, and don’t want it nerfed or pushed into an even greater state of imbalance by people that don’t play it within the given areas they are commenting about.

One would think after seeing the state of Update 35 Templar, that people would be cautious when pushing for unnecessary buffs to classes.

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

there's no way we're implying NB is a good place right now in PVE because of things like major cowardice... NB tanks are not used right now and NB healers are not used for mass hysteria; they don't even run it.

Cowardice can be useful for unorganized groups. I used mass hysteria a lot when I played my NB tank in dungeon groups.

But major cowardice is not what that person meant when they said ''special group buffs;'' that's referring to buffs like necro's major vulnerability.

Major Cowardice is amazing in organized groups.

It’s an inverted Major Courage. Is Major Courage negligible? If so, why isn’t it attached to an ability in game? I mean both Major Cowardice and Courage have the same 430 weapon and spell damage value, so if one is game-changing, it goes without saying that the other is likewise.

Major Cowardice applies up to 30% damage mitigation in an AoE with an uncapped stun attached to the ability, making even the most difficult add pulls completely trivial.

That mindset where adding damage as a support is the only type of support that matters, is a very toxic gatekeeping mindset. That’s like saying that if a group prefers more survivability to get a trifecta, that they don’t deserve it?

Are Nightblade supports cheat codes?

Achieving deathless runs aren’t a DPS race as much as they are a survivability check, especially when players are hitting over the damage requirements to clear content to begin with.

• Templar has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Solar Disturbance.
• Warden has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Permafrost.

Nightblade has an active skill, Mass Hysteria, an ability that costs 3,780 magicka that applies up to 30% mitigation for 12 seconds.

That’s more than both the Templar and Warden’s ultimate’s group utility combined. That’s completely ignoring the AoE Minor Cowardice further mitigating for the group, AoE Minor Vulnerability increasing the damage everyone does, AoE Major Expedition drastically increasing the speed of your group, and AoE Minor Endurance and Intellect applying resources to the group to keep up with all of their other buffs that are so casually granted to the class.

I play a Nightblade tank, and have cleared every HM except for the last three trials, which I haven’t attempted. Nightblade support is incredible, and doesn’t need any more buffs. If you’re struggling to find a build that works, feel free to ask questions.

Those arent the kind of buffs that are really in demand though, and you cant blame the nightblade for that. They dont choose what groups find attractive and what they dont so how useful you can make it out to be really doesnt matter if it isnt wanted. Also Id like to know where you are getting this 30% damage reduction figure from because every source ive looked at hasnt given any firm numbers and the ones they did werent anywhere near 30%

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice is great everywhere, not just the top-end trials, it’s phenomenal in any tri-fecta push. Educate yourself, watch that video.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice applies up to 30% damage mitigation in an AoE with an uncapped stun attached to the ability, making even the most difficult add pulls completely trivial.

That mindset where adding damage as a support is the only type of support that matters, is a very toxic gatekeeping mindset. That’s like saying that if a group prefers more survivability to get a trifecta, that they don’t deserve it?

Are Nightblade supports cheat codes?.

Achieving deathless runs aren’t a DPS race as much as they are a survivability check, especially when players are hitting over the damage requirements to clear content to begin with.
Templar has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Solar Disturbance.
Warden has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Permafrost.

Nightblade has an active skill, Mass Hysteria, an ability that costs 3,780 magicka that applies up to 30% mitigation for 12 seconds.

I don't mean to be rude, but have you actually watched the Hyperioxes test video you shared yourself? Hyperioxes clearly states at the beginning that Major Cowardice's effect fluctuates between 7% and 30% depending on the boss and build.30% is the value obtained in very extreme cases, and in most of the cases it's closer to 11%. Your over-exaggeration of this extreme case seems to be intentionally misleading.

I was one of the first NB players to prepare for SBS, and I had already tested Major Cowardice on different bosses long before Hyper posted the video. It performs well in some situations where it will deal high damage to all team members(which is why SBS after U35 will often use NB healer), but it's not needed in the vast majority of combats other than that. And the latest SBS playstyle has tried to replace NB Healer with Arcanist Healer + Ozezan with great success, fyi

I specifically said “Up to 30%” every time I mentioned the ability because that is the fact surrounding the debuff; not an assumption or exaggeration, how disingenuous of you to say otherwise.

Every other debuff of damage is a flat percentage, except for Cowardice. What you failed to understand when watching the video is that for the overwhelmingly vast majority of content, you will achieve better results than every defensive support ultimate in the game that provides Major Protection or Major Maim, values of 10%.

In regards to your claim of an over-exaggeration; is it an exaggeration to state that having active abilities that provide the benefit of an ultimate are over-performing?

To claim the ability has an average of 11% out of the 30% that it’s capable of; is completely dependent on the content that Hyperioxes used to test the debuff.

Which might I remind you, 11% is still greater than 10%, the flat percentage value of an ultimate for other classes, each of which costing over 200 ultimate forcing minimal up-times.

Extremely rare debuffs that cost 200+ ultimate on other classes are available to Nightblade for 3,780 magicka.

Let’s be funny about it, we can bring up Bolstering Darkness…



Even on Nightblade, a 10% damage mitigation is 200+ ultimate. Mass Hysteria’s 3,780 magicka cost contradicts Bolstering Darkness’s 200 ultimate cost.

If I wanted to sabotage my Nazaray Crimson Tide Nightblade… we could be honest and shine a light on the fact that Nightblade support is over-performing, and go one step further to say that until there’s class parity, having one or two classes with this heavily loaded of a kit is an affront to any sort of balance.

But I enjoy my character, and don’t want it nerfed or pushed into an even greater state of imbalance by people that don’t play it within the given areas they are commenting about.

One would think after seeing the state of Update 35 Templar, that people would be cautious when pushing for unnecessary buffs to classes.

Okay i see now. And not to be argumentative but I def agree that throwing around a rare extreme case value like that and using it to claim it better than all these other ultimates and skills is for sure misleading. And damage reduction in that sense in the vast majority of content is actually pretty useless because if it isnt a one shot then your healer will have you to 100% in no time so I dont see how this makes NB so cracked like you say. They have a debuff thats useful in one fight and unwanted everywhere else. Yay?

Eliran

[snip]

I don't care about PVP, and PVP shouldn't affect PVE.

Fix the class and stop nerfing it because of PVP.

[edited for baiting]

FirmamentOfStars

Eliran wrote: »

[snip]

I don't care about PVP, and PVP shouldn't affect PVE.

Fix the class and stop nerfing it because of PVP.

What about the other way round? Make the class viable and stop buffing it because of PvE?

[edited to remove quote]

ProudMary

Eliran wrote: »

[snip]

I don't care about PVP, and PVP shouldn't affect PVE.

Fix the class and stop nerfing it because of PVP.

As mentioned above, NB is already one of the strongest classes in the game, and it's getting more buffs with U39.

[edited to remove quote]

Tyrant_Tim

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice is great everywhere, not just the top-end trials, it’s phenomenal in any tri-fecta push. Educate yourself, watch that video.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice applies up to 30% damage mitigation in an AoE with an uncapped stun attached to the ability, making even the most difficult add pulls completely trivial.

That mindset where adding damage as a support is the only type of support that matters, is a very toxic gatekeeping mindset. That’s like saying that if a group prefers more survivability to get a trifecta, that they don’t deserve it?

Are Nightblade supports cheat codes?.

Achieving deathless runs aren’t a DPS race as much as they are a survivability check, especially when players are hitting over the damage requirements to clear content to begin with.
Templar has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Solar Disturbance.
Warden has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Permafrost.

Nightblade has an active skill, Mass Hysteria, an ability that costs 3,780 magicka that applies up to 30% mitigation for 12 seconds.

I don't mean to be rude, but have you actually watched the Hyperioxes test video you shared yourself? Hyperioxes clearly states at the beginning that Major Cowardice's effect fluctuates between 7% and 30% depending on the boss and build.30% is the value obtained in very extreme cases, and in most of the cases it's closer to 11%. Your over-exaggeration of this extreme case seems to be intentionally misleading.

I was one of the first NB players to prepare for SBS, and I had already tested Major Cowardice on different bosses long before Hyper posted the video. It performs well in some situations where it will deal high damage to all team members(which is why SBS after U35 will often use NB healer), but it's not needed in the vast majority of combats other than that. And the latest SBS playstyle has tried to replace NB Healer with Arcanist Healer + Ozezan with great success, fyi

I specifically said “Up to 30%” every time I mentioned the ability because that is the fact surrounding the debuff; not an assumption or exaggeration, how disingenuous of you to say otherwise.

Every other debuff of damage is a flat percentage, except for Cowardice. What you failed to understand when watching the video is that for the overwhelmingly vast majority of content, you will achieve better results than every defensive support ultimate in the game that provides Major Protection or Major Maim, values of 10%.

In regards to your claim of an over-exaggeration; is it an exaggeration to state that having active abilities that provide the benefit of an ultimate are over-performing?

To claim the ability has an average of 11% out of the 30% that it’s capable of; is completely dependent on the content that Hyperioxes used to test the debuff.

Which might I remind you, 11% is still greater than 10%, the flat percentage value of an ultimate for other classes, each of which costing over 200 ultimate forcing minimal up-times.

Extremely rare debuffs that cost 200+ ultimate on other classes are available to Nightblade for 3,780 magicka.

Let’s be funny about it, we can bring up Bolstering Darkness…



Even on Nightblade, a 10% damage mitigation is 200+ ultimate. Mass Hysteria’s 3,780 magicka cost contradicts Bolstering Darkness’s 200 ultimate cost.

If I wanted to sabotage my Nazaray Crimson Tide Nightblade… we could be honest and shine a light on the fact that Nightblade support is over-performing, and go one step further to say that until there’s class parity, having one or two classes with this heavily loaded of a kit is an affront to any sort of balance.

But I enjoy my character, and don’t want it nerfed or pushed into an even greater state of imbalance by people that don’t play it within the given areas they are commenting about.

One would think after seeing the state of Update 35 Templar, that people would be cautious when pushing for unnecessary buffs to classes.

Okay i see now. And not to be argumentative but I def agree that throwing around a rare extreme case value like that and using it to claim it better than all these other ultimates and skills is for sure misleading. And damage reduction in that sense in the vast majority of content is actually pretty useless because if it isnt a one shot then your healer will have you to 100% in no time so I dont see how this makes NB so cracked like you say. They have a debuff thats useful in one fight and unwanted everywhere else. Yay?

The average that was presented in the video by Hyperioxes was 11%. That 11% is still higher than a 200 ultimate sitting at 10%, fact of the matter is you will find it reaching above that 10% to around 20% quite often. Even though you will rarely hit 30%, it is still a reachable value.

There’s a reason so many people struggle to get tri-fectas, and spend weeks progging hard mode content that my guild clears in either the 1st or 2nd attempt and it’s because people are manipulated into believing damage is everything.

60k DPS is enough to clear the hardest content in the game, with enough speed to speed run everything. On average you will find remotely experienced damage dealers hitting around 100k fully buffed, which is around 80-90k in content on average.

There’s this weird brain bug going around that has persisted in this community for quite some time, where if you just hit a little harder, all of a sudden surviving is a breeze.

Reality is much different.

In reality, skipping mechanics is not always a viable solution, there are increasingly more mechanics that are forced at health percentages, that all players deal with, no matter the amount of damage they deal.

Lykeion

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

The average that was presented in the video by Hyperioxes was 11%. That 11% is still higher than a 200 ultimate sitting at 10%, fact of the matter is you will find it reaching above that 10% to around 20% quite often. Even though you will rarely hit 30%, it is still a reachable value.

And what's the point of that actually? Do you want to use the worst skill in the entire game to argue that the second worst(an analogy) skill in the entire game is overpowering?

Tyrant_Tim

Lykeion wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

The average that was presented in the video by Hyperioxes was 11%. That 11% is still higher than a 200 ultimate sitting at 10%, fact of the matter is you will find it reaching above that 10% to around 20% quite often. Even though you will rarely hit 30%, it is still a reachable value.

And what's the point of that actually? Do you want to use the worst skill in the entire game to argue that the second worst(an analogy) skill in the entire game is overpowering?

Consuming Darkness is bad, I agree. That ultimate, next to Nova, has been phased out completely.

Why would you run them when you can have readily available mitigation that meets their value with significantly less cost.

If those ultimates had their values increased to 15% from 10, they would be competitive with Major Cowardice.

Foxtrot39

Please note that "up to 30% mitigation" is when you apply ALL cowardice debuff not only major cowardice + unique WP/SD reduction from weapon enchant

Thats 2983 for power extraction for 10s, a skill thats worthless as tank + Mass Hysteria 3780 for 15s

So it cost a whooping 6763 magicka to last 10s and burn your primary healing ressource

Bolestering darkness need a total makeover, it bolster only disapointement at all levels

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice is great everywhere, not just the top-end trials, it’s phenomenal in any tri-fecta push. Educate yourself, watch that video.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice applies up to 30% damage mitigation in an AoE with an uncapped stun attached to the ability, making even the most difficult add pulls completely trivial.

That mindset where adding damage as a support is the only type of support that matters, is a very toxic gatekeeping mindset. That’s like saying that if a group prefers more survivability to get a trifecta, that they don’t deserve it?

Are Nightblade supports cheat codes?.

Achieving deathless runs aren’t a DPS race as much as they are a survivability check, especially when players are hitting over the damage requirements to clear content to begin with.
Templar has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Solar Disturbance.
Warden has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Permafrost.

Nightblade has an active skill, Mass Hysteria, an ability that costs 3,780 magicka that applies up to 30% mitigation for 12 seconds.

I don't mean to be rude, but have you actually watched the Hyperioxes test video you shared yourself? Hyperioxes clearly states at the beginning that Major Cowardice's effect fluctuates between 7% and 30% depending on the boss and build.30% is the value obtained in very extreme cases, and in most of the cases it's closer to 11%. Your over-exaggeration of this extreme case seems to be intentionally misleading.

I was one of the first NB players to prepare for SBS, and I had already tested Major Cowardice on different bosses long before Hyper posted the video. It performs well in some situations where it will deal high damage to all team members(which is why SBS after U35 will often use NB healer), but it's not needed in the vast majority of combats other than that. And the latest SBS playstyle has tried to replace NB Healer with Arcanist Healer + Ozezan with great success, fyi

I specifically said “Up to 30%” every time I mentioned the ability because that is the fact surrounding the debuff; not an assumption or exaggeration, how disingenuous of you to say otherwise.

Every other debuff of damage is a flat percentage, except for Cowardice. What you failed to understand when watching the video is that for the overwhelmingly vast majority of content, you will achieve better results than every defensive support ultimate in the game that provides Major Protection or Major Maim, values of 10%.

In regards to your claim of an over-exaggeration; is it an exaggeration to state that having active abilities that provide the benefit of an ultimate are over-performing?

To claim the ability has an average of 11% out of the 30% that it’s capable of; is completely dependent on the content that Hyperioxes used to test the debuff.

Which might I remind you, 11% is still greater than 10%, the flat percentage value of an ultimate for other classes, each of which costing over 200 ultimate forcing minimal up-times.

Extremely rare debuffs that cost 200+ ultimate on other classes are available to Nightblade for 3,780 magicka.

Let’s be funny about it, we can bring up Bolstering Darkness…



Even on Nightblade, a 10% damage mitigation is 200+ ultimate. Mass Hysteria’s 3,780 magicka cost contradicts Bolstering Darkness’s 200 ultimate cost.

If I wanted to sabotage my Nazaray Crimson Tide Nightblade… we could be honest and shine a light on the fact that Nightblade support is over-performing, and go one step further to say that until there’s class parity, having one or two classes with this heavily loaded of a kit is an affront to any sort of balance.

But I enjoy my character, and don’t want it nerfed or pushed into an even greater state of imbalance by people that don’t play it within the given areas they are commenting about.

One would think after seeing the state of Update 35 Templar, that people would be cautious when pushing for unnecessary buffs to classes.

Okay i see now. And not to be argumentative but I def agree that throwing around a rare extreme case value like that and using it to claim it better than all these other ultimates and skills is for sure misleading. And damage reduction in that sense in the vast majority of content is actually pretty useless because if it isnt a one shot then your healer will have you to 100% in no time so I dont see how this makes NB so cracked like you say. They have a debuff thats useful in one fight and unwanted everywhere else. Yay?

The average that was presented in the video by Hyperioxes was 11%. That 11% is still higher than a 200 ultimate sitting at 10%, fact of the matter is you will find it reaching above that 10% to around 20% quite often. Even though you will rarely hit 30%, it is still a reachable value.

There’s a reason so many people struggle to get tri-fectas, and spend weeks progging hard mode content that my guild clears in either the 1st or 2nd attempt and it’s because people are manipulated into believing damage is everything.

60k DPS is enough to clear the hardest content in the game, with enough speed to speed run everything. On average you will find remotely experienced damage dealers hitting around 100k fully buffed, which is around 80-90k in content on average.

There’s this weird brain bug going around that has persisted in this community for quite some time, where if you just hit a little harder, all of a sudden surviving is a breeze.

Reality is much different.

In reality, skipping mechanics is not always a viable solution, there are increasingly more mechanics that are forced at health percentages, that all players deal with, no matter the amount of damage they deal.

But that ultimate is an ultimate thats been trashed and hasnt been used... like ever. Plus using your logic then flare is the most busted skill in the game because it gives you everything an ultimate gives you just for slotting it lol

Tyrant_Tim

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Thats 2983 for power extraction for 10s, a skill thats worthless as tank + Mass Hysteria 3780 for 15s

So it cost a whooping 6763 magicka to last 10s and burn your primary healing ressource

Bolestering darkness need a total makeover, it bolster only disapointement at all levels

If you’re running a Nightblade tank and you’re not running all of those things, excluding Bolstering Darkness because that ability is a meme, you’re doing it wrong. I offered earlier, that if anyone is struggling as a Nightblade support, I would be more than willing to help. That offer still stands.

First bit of advice, run the monster set Nazaray.
That monster set was made for Nightblade.
Longer up-times equate to less cost.



There is no class better at debuffing enemies than a Nightblade, and choosing to not use debuffs like Minor Cowardice, that also give you Minor Courage and Brutality, stats that affect your survivability by buffing your heals while giving your tank some damage to add to the overall group DPS, is nothing short of a lack of fundamental understanding of how weapon and spell damage effect gameplay.

Power Extraction is hands down the most efficient skill in the game. There isn’t one that provides more benefit than it… it’s more loaded than Mass Hysteria, but it’s more spread out.

Forgot to mention Power Extraction costs Stamina, not Magicka, might want to revise your math on that.

Tyrant_Tim

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice is great everywhere, not just the top-end trials, it’s phenomenal in any tri-fecta push. Educate yourself, watch that video.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Major Cowardice applies up to 30% damage mitigation in an AoE with an uncapped stun attached to the ability, making even the most difficult add pulls completely trivial.

That mindset where adding damage as a support is the only type of support that matters, is a very toxic gatekeeping mindset. That’s like saying that if a group prefers more survivability to get a trifecta, that they don’t deserve it?

Are Nightblade supports cheat codes?.

Achieving deathless runs aren’t a DPS race as much as they are a survivability check, especially when players are hitting over the damage requirements to clear content to begin with.
Templar has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Solar Disturbance.
Warden has an ultimate that provides 10% mitigation, Permafrost.

Nightblade has an active skill, Mass Hysteria, an ability that costs 3,780 magicka that applies up to 30% mitigation for 12 seconds.

I don't mean to be rude, but have you actually watched the Hyperioxes test video you shared yourself? Hyperioxes clearly states at the beginning that Major Cowardice's effect fluctuates between 7% and 30% depending on the boss and build.30% is the value obtained in very extreme cases, and in most of the cases it's closer to 11%. Your over-exaggeration of this extreme case seems to be intentionally misleading.

I was one of the first NB players to prepare for SBS, and I had already tested Major Cowardice on different bosses long before Hyper posted the video. It performs well in some situations where it will deal high damage to all team members(which is why SBS after U35 will often use NB healer), but it's not needed in the vast majority of combats other than that. And the latest SBS playstyle has tried to replace NB Healer with Arcanist Healer + Ozezan with great success, fyi

I specifically said “Up to 30%” every time I mentioned the ability because that is the fact surrounding the debuff; not an assumption or exaggeration, how disingenuous of you to say otherwise.

Every other debuff of damage is a flat percentage, except for Cowardice. What you failed to understand when watching the video is that for the overwhelmingly vast majority of content, you will achieve better results than every defensive support ultimate in the game that provides Major Protection or Major Maim, values of 10%.

In regards to your claim of an over-exaggeration; is it an exaggeration to state that having active abilities that provide the benefit of an ultimate are over-performing?

To claim the ability has an average of 11% out of the 30% that it’s capable of; is completely dependent on the content that Hyperioxes used to test the debuff.

Which might I remind you, 11% is still greater than 10%, the flat percentage value of an ultimate for other classes, each of which costing over 200 ultimate forcing minimal up-times.

Extremely rare debuffs that cost 200+ ultimate on other classes are available to Nightblade for 3,780 magicka.

Let’s be funny about it, we can bring up Bolstering Darkness…



Even on Nightblade, a 10% damage mitigation is 200+ ultimate. Mass Hysteria’s 3,780 magicka cost contradicts Bolstering Darkness’s 200 ultimate cost.

If I wanted to sabotage my Nazaray Crimson Tide Nightblade… we could be honest and shine a light on the fact that Nightblade support is over-performing, and go one step further to say that until there’s class parity, having one or two classes with this heavily loaded of a kit is an affront to any sort of balance.

But I enjoy my character, and don’t want it nerfed or pushed into an even greater state of imbalance by people that don’t play it within the given areas they are commenting about.

One would think after seeing the state of Update 35 Templar, that people would be cautious when pushing for unnecessary buffs to classes.

Okay i see now. And not to be argumentative but I def agree that throwing around a rare extreme case value like that and using it to claim it better than all these other ultimates and skills is for sure misleading. And damage reduction in that sense in the vast majority of content is actually pretty useless because if it isnt a one shot then your healer will have you to 100% in no time so I dont see how this makes NB so cracked like you say. They have a debuff thats useful in one fight and unwanted everywhere else. Yay?

The average that was presented in the video by Hyperioxes was 11%. That 11% is still higher than a 200 ultimate sitting at 10%, fact of the matter is you will find it reaching above that 10% to around 20% quite often. Even though you will rarely hit 30%, it is still a reachable value.

There’s a reason so many people struggle to get tri-fectas, and spend weeks progging hard mode content that my guild clears in either the 1st or 2nd attempt and it’s because people are manipulated into believing damage is everything.

60k DPS is enough to clear the hardest content in the game, with enough speed to speed run everything. On average you will find remotely experienced damage dealers hitting around 100k fully buffed, which is around 80-90k in content on average.

There’s this weird brain bug going around that has persisted in this community for quite some time, where if you just hit a little harder, all of a sudden surviving is a breeze.

Reality is much different.

In reality, skipping mechanics is not always a viable solution, there are increasingly more mechanics that are forced at health percentages, that all players deal with, no matter the amount of damage they deal.

But that ultimate is an ultimate thats been trashed and hasnt been used... like ever. Plus using your logic then flare is the most busted skill in the game because it gives you everything an ultimate gives you just for slotting it lol

Nobody is saying that Bolstering Darkness is in a good place, its radius is way too small, and as long as Major Cowardice exists in the kit with Mass Hysteria, Major Protection has zero appeal.

As a tank, you would be better off running the sword and shield ultimate or Soul Tether for a selfish defense option.

If that ability is the basis in which people are making the claim Nightblade support suffers, then sure, Nightblade is lacking a decent tank ultimate and could benefit by an improvement on Bolstering Darkness.