[Request] Please add slaughter fish in Fungal Grotto 1/2 dungeon.

FeedbackOnly

Soarora wrote: »

I hate this “you should have to kill everything” suggestion that keeps popping up as threads. It’s not going to happen. Removing the fg1 skip would be an extremely unpopular idea. People aren’t going to kill every single obsidian ghost thing in fg2. Ruins of mazzatun has its own achievement for killing the entire dungeon. March of sacrifices gets a lot longer when you have to hunt down all the spread out trash packs. Most DLC dungeons require killing everything for speedrun/no death. Farm runs would take longer, thus mask and motif pages would probably go up in price. Maybe the premade group thing will help people find what they’re looking for without advocating to rip how the majority plays away from us.

Just make it possible with premade group finder so for those very few who want to not skip it are happy

Jierdanit

Blood_again wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Almost all of that is something that every player in the game should know.
The problem is that ZOS is absolutely trash at teaching new players how to play their game.
It should be absolutely basic knowledge how to use the chat, the grouping tool and what composition is needed for what, but it just isn't taught anywhere in the game.

Also barely anyone would have a problem doing something like a delve solo if they actually needed to use any form of build in overland and questing content instead of being able to do everything with light attacks and white gear.
Obviously they're gonna have problems in content that isn't brain dead easy.

Claiming ZoS don't teach players well won't change the fact. Newcomers you meet in Fungal are often don't have essential knowledge and skills for group play.
We can't just put on them the whole responsibility for toxic behaviour of experienced players.
Oh, really, he didn't write about having quest for 3 seconds he had before I cut the first stack. So surely he doesn't need it. Hallooo, he tried to realize where he is totally and had no chance, you know.

Talking about "any form of build" of newcomer while questing... What's wrong with you?
Nobody was born with ESO building skills. Sure, you or me deside if a new character run mana or stam while chosing his name. Newcomers don't. Is it a rocket sciense?
Getting back to the point. You know they probably have these problems. What do you do meeting them in Fungal or Spindle?

I know that it won't change anything, I'm just stating what I think are the main reasons that newer players struggle with so much content that is ridiculously easy for anyone with a basic understanding of the game.
And if ZOS did find ways to properly teach players, it would certainly help.

When I'm talking about builds I don't mean anything serious.
I'm not even talking about wearing sets. I mean actually using skills and not just light attacking.
I think that level can be excepted from any player that wants to be able to do dungeons.
It's the absolute basics of eso combat, yet I still encountered players in RNDs that almost only do light attacks and maybe use a skill every 5 - 10 seconds, if at all.

I barely do dungeons at all, the last time I did a rnd was leveling my last Arcanist. I did a dungeon in level 4 training gear, queued as healer (with enough healing to easily heal anything I could've gotten) and still had around 75% of the groups damage throughout the dungeon.
Even though I usually wait for the group before every encounter, I usually do dungeons fast, but I won't leave the group behind.
My damage was like 10-15k dps single target, my pve char with mediocre build gets close to that with just light attacks and yet a rnd group with 2 ppl on CP 160+ chars wasn't capable to get even close to that all combined.

At some point you gotta admit that the problem isn't with the vet players being too strong or fast, but with the new players expecting everything to be easy.

AnduinTryggva

RaikaNA wrote: »

People have been cheesing this dungeon for such a long time by completing it quickly by skipping the rest of the bosses after fighting the first by heading in this direction (as shown in the photo) and jumping into the water to swim to the last boss. This prevents new players from exploring the dungeon.

Well exploring is anyhow not possible with random groups whether some bosses are skipped or not.

I mean which random group is patient enough for first runners to do the quest properly - that is actually doing the dialogues?

svendf

SilverBride wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Ten new player´s in the game (just a number). How many of those new player´s will stay with ESO after encounting these unhelpful player´s ?

These new players may find learning a way to do this dungeon faster very helpful.

PC isn´t my platform. I don´t bother myself with, what´s going on overthere. My focus is PS EU. Can we agree on a nice well balanced community and convince, through action and show them the bennefits of it, through action, dialog (text and voice chat). It would be a really nice place to be, both inside and outside dungeons

robpr

I'm fine putting the wall there, to be honest. It is similar to the "mount on the lava" skip on CoA 2 - a good chunk of players don't know how to jump out of that water or aggro Mr. Crabs next to the bridge and everything takes longer than going the normal way and simply skipping the Broodbirther/Spooder Shepherd by just going by the ledge.
And sometimes I question that skip in entirety because killing that extra boss takes no longer than 1-2mins extra without making mobs permanently in aggro and bugged out positions afterwards.

Obsidian Warriors are another story as they respawn infinitely.

Blood_again

Jierdanit wrote: »

I know that it won't change anything, I'm just stating what I think are the main reasons that newer players struggle with so much content that is ridiculously easy for anyone with a basic understanding of the game.
And if ZOS did find ways to properly teach players, it would certainly help.

Actually I agree. That would be great to have more attention to group cooperation in tutorial. It won't fix everything, but it will change the percent of "how to write orange text" newcomers.
Currently people often see their first hint about the group only when they ended up in their first dungeon. It is really too late and leads to a horrible experience.

Jierdanit wrote: »

At some point you gotta admit that the problem isn't with the vet players being too strong or fast, but with the new players expecting everything to be easy.

I would admit that the key problem is the difference of players' goals in dungeon group. Wrote possible solutions on the first page.

Here I make more focus on human factor. Not that one side is too strong or another one is too naive, but the gap problem.
When a new player on his first run meets an expereinced one with hundreds of runs, there is an inevitable knowledge and skill gap between them. That gap gives the experienced player a full control of situation, which is often exploited in a toxic way. Newcomers usually have no chance to reach their goal in this situation.
Also newcomers often don't know how to avoid this situation, like make their own group etc. Only avoid dungeons at all. Lack of knowledge. While experienced ones know it well and could do it easy.
Finally claiming that only newcomers have to adapt and make their solutions (which this topic is full of, not from you) makes the situation even more toxic.
So I hope that the only people who can change it - the experienced ones - will do a try.
I don't know how ZoS might solve it on their side yet.

jle30303

There is an important reason why "slaughterfish in the stream" would not work:

In Fungal Grotto 2, you HAVE to jump into the stream to make your way back to the start to fight Vila Theran.

I would, personally, prefer it if the only way back out of the stream, was up onto one of the islands containing one of the skippable minibosses, not onto the final bit of land containing the final boss. You could still stealth past the miniboss, at close range, but step one foot out of line and you aggro them.

ArchMikem

Perhaps the Undaunted Pledges should start requiring an all boss clear for the second key.

Carcamongus

I generally dislike skipping mobs, except for FG. I guess jumping from the waterfall became something of a tradition to speed up the easiest and one of the most boring dungeons in the game (in the case of FG1) or to skip an annoying boss (FG2). When I get FG1 as my random, I really want to get out of there as quickly as possible. That doesn't mean I bolt ahead of the group, though as a tank I indeed should be the first to engage the mobs. Whenever I get to the waterfall, I pause and wait to see what the other 3 players are going to do. The other day the healer in the group was rushing ahead; to my surprise, they didn't skip. I agree with others who argued it's better to see how the group wants to run the dungeon than to impose a change after FG has been like this for so many years.

I do wish Mazzatun didn't encourage people to skip, especially since that can backfire: on a run, someone was in a hurry and we had little choice but to sneak around. That didn't work so well and, as a result, when we got to the puzzle room, we were in combat and couldn't push the buttons. We wasted more time clearing that room than we saved by skipping.

Jierdanit

Blood_again wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

I know that it won't change anything, I'm just stating what I think are the main reasons that newer players struggle with so much content that is ridiculously easy for anyone with a basic understanding of the game.
And if ZOS did find ways to properly teach players, it would certainly help.

Actually I agree. That would be great to have more attention to group cooperation in tutorial. It won't fix everything, but it will change the percent of "how to write orange text" newcomers.
Currently people often see their first hint about the group only when they ended up in their first dungeon. It is really too late and leads to a horrible experience.

Jierdanit wrote: »

At some point you gotta admit that the problem isn't with the vet players being too strong or fast, but with the new players expecting everything to be easy.

I would admit that the key problem is the difference of players' goals in dungeon group. Wrote possible solutions on the first page.

Here I make more focus on human factor. Not that one side is too strong or another one is too naive, but the gap problem.
When a new player on his first run meets an expereinced one with hundreds of runs, there is an inevitable knowledge and skill gap between them. That gap gives the experienced player a full control of situation, which is often exploited in a toxic way. Newcomers usually have no chance to reach their goal in this situation.
Also newcomers often don't know how to avoid this situation, like make their own group etc. Only avoid dungeons at all. Lack of knowledge. While experienced ones know it well and could do it easy.
Finally claiming that only newcomers have to adapt and make their solutions (which this topic is full of, not from you) makes the situation even more toxic.
So I hope that the only people who can change it - the experienced ones - will do a try.
I don't know how ZoS might solve it on their side yet.

I agree, experienced players should not abuse their advantage and make something like a random normal horrible for the new players.
People who are experienced at eso should try to help new players as much as possible.

For new players I agree that they in a lot of cases won't be able to find a group for dungeons or other content, because they obviously didn't have a lot of time to find people to play with.

It's a different story for more experienced players who want to basically do a story run of a dungeon. The group finder is going to be mostly used by people who quickly want to do a rnd or specific dungeon. If they want to take their time they're going to have a hard time in those groups.

But as you said ZOS is going to have a very hard time getting players to actually change the way they play, especially if they want everyone to be happy in the end.

Ragnarok0130

OP This is only an issue if you don’t speak up like an adult and ask to do all bosses. When I’m doing the quest on a new character or when I’m achievement hunting I ask the group in chat before we start if we can do the whole dungeon or even side bosses on newer dungeons and I’ve never been denied when I ask. In fact on PC when I run FG most people stand at the waterfall seeing if someone runs along the normal path before jumping to take the shortcut.

This post comes off more as “I don’t like the way others play” instead of a bonafide issue that ZoS should take the time and manpower to address.

Nowa133

They don't even let you read the quest, since its such a easy dungeon... but that its on all of them (dungeons), tbh. They could try to implement some kinda of effect when someone start reading quests to paralyze the other party members and show a window with the reading content or just ground them on a circle just like they do on ffxiv - they could just run in circle while waiting for the said member finishes reading.

Vanionator

No thanks.

katanagirl1

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

OP This is only an issue if you don’t speak up like an adult and ask to do all bosses. When I’m doing the quest on a new character or when I’m achievement hunting I ask the group in chat before we start if we can do the whole dungeon or even side bosses on newer dungeons and I’ve never been denied when I ask. In fact on PC when I run FG most people stand at the waterfall seeing if someone runs along the normal path before jumping to take the shortcut.

This post comes off more as “I don’t like the way others play” instead of a bonafide issue that ZoS should take the time and manpower to address.

Maybe people are nicer on PC, but I don’t even get a chance to type out that I am doing the quest before the group rushes to the first boss in any dungeon and kills him. I am running catch-up to every single boss after that and they leave the second the last boss is dead.

Good for you that you have such great luck, but that doesn’t mean that everyone gets the same experience..

BahometZ

This is simply a non-issue.

SilverBride

katanagirl1 wrote: »

...they leave the second the last boss is dead.

I don't know what else they would do. Pug groups aren't in it for the social experience like a group of friends or guildmates may be. They are doing a task and just want to finish it quickly.

kargen27

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

People have been cheesing this dungeon for such a long time by completing it quickly by skipping the rest of the bosses after fighting the first by heading in this direction (as shown in the photo) and jumping into the water to swim to the last boss. This prevents new players from exploring the dungeon.

Well exploring is anyhow not possible with random groups whether some bosses are skipped or not.

I mean which random group is patient enough for first runners to do the quest properly - that is actually doing the dialogues?

I always wait while they do the quest if I know they have it and offer to go back and get skipped content if they want.

vsrs_au

I didn't even know about that shortcut, and that I could skip some of the bosses in FG to do endeavours more quickly - thanks for the tip, people! I'll definitely use that approach in future, given that endeavour only gives 15 seals.

ESO_player123

Nowa133 wrote: »

They don't even let you read the quest, since its such a easy dungeon... but that its on all of them (dungeons), tbh. They could try to implement some kinda of effect when someone start reading quests to paralyze the other party members and show a window with the reading content or just ground them on a circle just like they do on ffxiv - they could just run in circle while waiting for the said member finishes reading.

The possibilities for trolling with this one ... It's enough to see how people stall in ToT to understand what is going to happen if this is implemented.

katanagirl1

SilverBride wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

...they leave the second the last boss is dead.

I don't know what else they would do. Pug groups aren't in it for the social experience like a group of friends or guildmates may be. They are doing a task and just want to finish it quickly.

Maybe to say “tyfg” and make sure any players have time to turn in the quest? See if anyone needs gear?

Why are you commenting on this, you have said you don’t do group activities?

SilverBride

katanagirl1 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

...they leave the second the last boss is dead.

I don't know what else they would do. Pug groups aren't in it for the social experience like a group of friends or guildmates may be. They are doing a task and just want to finish it quickly.

Maybe to say “tyfg” and make sure any players have time to turn in the quest? See if anyone needs gear?

Why are you commenting on this, you have said you don’t do group activities?

I never used to do group activities until a few months ago. Now I do every day. And it's pretty common for others in the group to say tyfg and gg etc.

Jierdanit

katanagirl1 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

...they leave the second the last boss is dead.

I don't know what else they would do. Pug groups aren't in it for the social experience like a group of friends or guildmates may be. They are doing a task and just want to finish it quickly.

Maybe to say “tyfg” and make sure any players have time to turn in the quest? See if anyone needs gear?

Why are you commenting on this, you have said you don’t do group activities?

You're not completely wrong, something like saying tyfg should be possible for everyone, however even if everyone leaves you should now still have enough time to turn in the quest before you kicked.
And if you want specific gear just say that at the start of the dungeon and if they still leave they apparently didn't want to give it to you.

Adernath

Not slaughterfish but... the place where you can jump out of the water is clearly not intended as such and rather a game bug. This should be fixed imo.

Marcus684

It's really not that big an issue. I've run all 19 of my characters through FG1 and 2 for the quest points and maybe twice have had to run it a 2nd time to complete the quest because of skips. I've found that 80+% of the time if I say "Doing quest" at the beginning of the dungeon everyone allows me time to finish dialogue and make side trips for quest objectives. I also don't dawdle when doing so out of respect for my groupmates' time, and help others that look like they're running the quest.

So many people are so quick to experience one inconvenience in the game and immediately run to the forums to make an announcement about how horrible it was and how ZOS should take a sledgehammer and fix it.

karthrag_inak

Khajiit always sticks around to the bloody end with any PUG dungeon he joins, doing every boss unless the entire group suggests otherwise. He also routinely rewards new players he meets with gold and items as he can, with offers of assistance, and with friending in order to make available his own amazing home (if he does say so himself) full of every amenity available in game, along with 2 full bowling alleys and a nightclub with a performance stage. This one still has folks as friends who he met when they were starting out that are now over cp1k and are established in the game (And probably better at many things that this one is )

This one, however, is naturally contrary, and if heavy-handed changes such as those suggested by OP started being made, changes that took away khajiit's ability to choose, this one would cease doing all those things.

And he would make iit a point to always bypass FG 1/2, should he be sent into them, by just dropping the dungeon.

Forcing helpfulness and consideration from others tends to have the opposite effect.

Ekzorka

Why don't new players form groups? Why do new players abuse veteran players to complete content quickly? (This is a joke to show how absurd complaints can be)

HarroHerro

lmao

couriersix

No. FG1 is also often the first dungeon new players do and it wouldn't really be a good experience for them to fall into the water and die. It would unnecessarily waste time just to 'fix' something which is a non-issue.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

You know you can just jump to the island, how is slaughterfish gonna stop that?

festegios

It wouldn’t solve much.

You could just run past all the adds to get to the final boss