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Lightining staff is too strong now
lQrukl
✭✭✭✭
Honestly, I love this new DoT/Direct identity of staves, but DoT effects usually deal 15-35% of general dps in PvE (besides Arcanist), with ~35-40% max on DK
And even with that fact, Lightining also extra buffs channeled effects...
Isn't it too much for one weapon? Inferno also needs some love to be competitive. Maybe let Inferno to buff channeled as well, instead of Lightining?
Heavy attacks can be adjusted separately from this passive somehow, and not exclusive to Lightning Staff
Edited by lQrukl on July 24, 2023 7:03PM And even with that fact, Lightining also extra buffs channeled effects...
Isn't it too much for one weapon? Inferno also needs some love to be competitive. Maybe let Inferno to buff channeled as well, instead of Lightining?
Heavy attacks can be adjusted separately from this passive somehow, and not exclusive to Lightning Staff
3
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JerBearESO✭✭✭✭Hey applied DoTs are not channeled effect by themselves. I think they gave everyone exactly what they were asking for so it seems good. Unless I misunderstood you....13 -
Tyrant_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JerBearESO wrote: »Hey applied DoTs are not channeled effect by themselves. I think they gave everyone exactly what they were asking for so it seems good. Unless I misunderstood you....
He’s saying, 2 > 1, and that Lightning has two damage types being improved while Inferno has only one.
What is not being mentioned, is that Channeled Abilities are very sparse in the game right now, with only 4 or 5 total, and more than half of them don’t do any damage and can also be interrupted… out of 7 classes with 16 abilities each.Edited by Tyrant_Tim on July 24, 2023 6:17PM18 -
lQrukl✭✭✭✭JerBearESO wrote: »Hey applied DoTs are not channeled effect by themselves. I think they gave everyone exactly what they were asking for so it seems good. Unless I misunderstood you....
Direct damage buff >> DoT buff
I suggest to shift channeled effects buff to Inferno to +/- equalize its utility with Lightining
Moved to top post, since not everyone perceives graphic explanation well
Edited by lQrukl on July 24, 2023 7:04PM0 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Or we could just stop shoehorning specific elements into specific classes.
I accepted that my Sorcerer had to play with fire to be effective. I like her using fire now. Now I need to use lightning instead?
Stop messing with my power fantasy.9 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am not a fan of this because it now means we have to test a rotation to see which staff is optimal. Even though DK has more DoT damage than most classes, a lot of the damage is direct too, so I have no idea which staff to run until I test.
I wish they would just give generic buffs like the other weapons that are easy to understand and build into. Crit Chance vs Crit Damage, etc.
The bigger issue and synergy is with the updated merciless charge:
Merciless Charge: This set now increases your damage done with direct damage attacks by 9.3% of your Weapon or Spell Damage, up to a maximum of 560, rather than increasing your damage done with all Two Handed attacks by 11.16% of your Weapon or Spell Damage with no maximum.
So basically back bar a 2 H and front bar a shock staff for tons of direct damage...
Playing since beta...2 -
Malkosha✭✭✭So it looks like the Lightning Staff Tri-focus AOE nerf is going live. I guess I could adjust my build to compensate but to be honest, these constant changes to basic gameplay are getting old.21
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acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The only thing that needs to change here is that it needs to not buff the already absurdly over performing Arcanist beam. Every other class should be fine with this change. The literally only problem is the stupid beam. Which means, since it's unfair to exempt a single skill, that the beam needs about a 12% nerf to compensate. Maybe even more.2 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »The only thing that needs to change here is that it needs to not buff the already absurdly over performing Arcanist beam. Every other class should be fine with this change. The literally only problem is the stupid beam. Which means, since it's unfair to exempt a single skill, that the beam needs about a 12% nerf to compensate. Maybe even more.
I am literally not fine with every single character using a staff with this change, thank you.0 -
Syiccal✭✭✭✭✭
✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »The only thing that needs to change here is that it needs to not buff the already absurdly over performing Arcanist beam. Every other class should be fine with this change. The literally only problem is the stupid beam. Which means, since it's unfair to exempt a single skill, that the beam needs about a 12% nerf to compensate. Maybe even more.
I am literally not fine with every single character using a staff with this change, thank you.
Dw will still likely perform bettwr so I doubt this will be the be the case9 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS is obviously trying hard to overbuff Arcanist...Lightning affects Fatecarver AND Flail? Really?
ZOS is also trying to maintain some semblance of heavy attack builds after that senseless nerf. Lightning is a channel AND the last tick is direct damage.
(Why is "Channeled" even a thing. It is a DOT with a cast time).
Edited by katorga on July 24, 2023 6:54PM0 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »The only thing that needs to change here is that it needs to not buff the already absurdly over performing Arcanist beam. Every other class should be fine with this change. The literally only problem is the stupid beam. Which means, since it's unfair to exempt a single skill, that the beam needs about a 12% nerf to compensate. Maybe even more.
I am literally not fine with every single character using a staff with this change, thank you.
Dual weild has over performed (by comparison) for a long time now. Even if that was to happen, which I severely doubt, It'd be fine to swing the other way for a while.Edited by acastanza_ESO on July 24, 2023 6:52PM3 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭DW overperforming is an entirely separate issue and does not change the fact that this relegates inferno staves to a complete backbar weapon even for those of us who held out with an actual ranged mage build.1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ZOS is obviously trying hard to overbuff Arcanist...Lightning affects Fatecarver AND Flail? Really?
ZOS is also trying to maintain some semblance of heavy attack builds after that senseless nerf. Lightning is a channel AND the last tick is direct damage.
I doubt the last tick of a channeled HA will be double-buffed. Or, if it is, that will be a bug quickly fixed.1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Honestly, I love this new DoT/Direct identity of staves, but DoT effects usually deal 15-35% of general dps in PvE (besides Arcanist), with ~35-40% max on DK
And even with that fact, Lightining also extra buffs channeled effects...
Isn't it too much for one weapon? Inferno also needs some love to be competitive
Heavy attacks can be adjusted separately from this passive somehow, and not exclusive to Lightning Staff
What you really mean, I think, is that the number should be higher for the DoT buff than it is for the direct damage buff.
Well, that and for some reason you concluded that one was too strong, rather than that the other one was too weak.
Perhaps the direct damage and DoT CP buffs should have different numbers as well.
Or perhaps ZoS thinks equality is fine, since AoE damage is often very DoT-oriented.Edited by FrancisCrawford on July 24, 2023 6:59PM1 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Does this mean HA builds will now need to use Flame staff? Lightning heavies tended to replace the rapid LA-spammable-LA-spammable-LA-spammable sequence in rotations. But you usually needed to lay down AoE and DoTs first, then go into spamming lightning heavies, at least if you wanted decent DPS for veteran content. It seems like there is not much opportunity for direct damage in a HA build. So I am not sure why Lightning would buff that. Seems like they have flipped things to where a min/max HA build will need flame staff, while a min/max LA build will need Lightning staff. Which is an odd choice.0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »Does this mean HA builds will now need to use Flame staff? Lightning heavies tended to replace the rapid LA-spammable-LA-spammable-LA-spammable sequence in rotations. But you usually needed to lay down AoE and DoTs first, then go into spamming lightning heavies, at least if you wanted decent DPS for veteran content. It seems like there is not much opportunity for direct damage in a HA build. So I am not sure why Lightning would buff that. Seems like they have flipped things to where a min/max HA build will need flame staff, while a min/max LA build will need Lightning staff. Which is an odd choice.
No, lightning staves will still be best for HA builds.
Since the passive now buffs 12% to channel and direct damage, a typical HA setup would see the following:
Heavy attack channel +12%, including the final tick of damage
Tri-Focus (Direct Damage) +12%
That is pretty much the majority of damage on the builds and lightning staves were not increasing the heavy attack channel damage on live, only tri-focus. Skills only make up around 20-30% of the damage, and for something like an oakensorc, pets weren't getting buffed by lightning staves on live anyways.
Now, it is still a cleave nerf with the tri-focus change, but an overall buff to single target.1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »ZOS is obviously trying hard to overbuff Arcanist...Lightning affects Fatecarver AND Flail? Really?
ZOS is also trying to maintain some semblance of heavy attack builds after that senseless nerf. Lightning is a channel AND the last tick is direct damage.
I doubt the last tick of a channeled HA will be double-buffed. Or, if it is, that will be a bug quickly fixed.
It did not seem like Arcanist was getting 24% on fatecarver because it was a DOT and a Channel in 9.0.0.0 -
BasP✭✭✭✭So I thought I'd try out the different weapons (except Frost Staff and S&B) on the front bar of an Arcanist and despite the fact that the buffs the Lightning Staff gives seems like an especially good fit for the Arcanist, DW still came out on top for me. I must say I'm terrible at parsing (as you can see below) and I didn't use a meta setup, so please take these tests with a huge grain of salt, but perhaps someone still finds the results interesting.
Lightning Staff: 96400 DPS (97419 with an additional DOT on the back bar)
Inferno Staff: 96167 DPS (100K with an additional DOT on the back bar)
DW: 107990 DPS (102K with the same skill bars as the Lightning Staff)
Bow: 100939 DPS (with Endless Hail instead of Poison Injection the DPS was similar)
Edit: Added a parse to the Lightning Staff and Inferno Staff in which I used Structured Entropy on the back bar instead of double barring Barbed Trap. With an additional DOT the Inferno Staff does seem a better fit for an Arcanist (from my limited testing), as Skinnycheecks also mentioned below.Edited by BasP on July 26, 2023 6:24PM5 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So I thought I'd try out the different weapons (except Frost Staff and S&B) on the front bar of an Arcanist and despite the fact that the buffs the Lightning Staff gives seems like an especially good fit for the Arcanist, DW still came out on top for me. I must say I'm terrible at parsing (as you can see below) and I didn't use a meta setup, so please take these tests with a huge grain of salt, but perhaps someone still finds the results interesting.
Lightning Staff: 96400 DPS
DW: 107990 DPS (102K with the same skill bars as the Lightning Staff)
Bow: 100939 DPS (with Endless Hail instead of Poison Injection the DPS was similar)
Inferno Staff: 96167 DPS
Is lightning even working? Your fatecarver is nearly exactly the same average and max damage per hit with lightning compared to fire staff. I wouldn't expect exactly 12% increase but I would expect AN increase.
edit: Also the DoT's on your Fire Stick setup are just barely any better as well. Like 2-3% tops. Somethings up.Edited by danno8 on July 24, 2023 8:55PM0 -
skinnycheeks✭✭✭✭✭So I thought I'd try out the different weapons (except Frost Staff and S&B) on the front bar of an Arcanist and despite the fact that the buffs the Lightning Staff gives seems like an especially good fit for the Arcanist, DW still came out on top for me. I must say I'm terrible at parsing (as you can see below) and I didn't use a meta setup, so please take these tests with a huge grain of salt, but perhaps someone still finds the results interesting.
Lightning Staff: 96400 DPS
DW: 107990 DPS (102K with the same skill bars as the Lightning Staff)
Bow: 100939 DPS (with Endless Hail instead of Poison Injection the DPS was similar)
Inferno Staff: 96167 DPS
Is lightning even working? Your fatecarver is nearly exactly the same average and max damage per hit with lightning compared to fire staff. I wouldn't expect exactly 12% increase but I would expect AN increase.
edit: Also the DoT's on your Fire Stick setup are just barely any better as well. Like 2-3% tops. Somethings up.
lightning and flame staff both boost beam the same - 12% to DoT with flame or 12% to channel with lightning. flame is probably actually ever so slightly better than lightning for an arcanist.2 -
BasP✭✭✭✭So I thought I'd try out the different weapons (except Frost Staff and S&B) on the front bar of an Arcanist and despite the fact that the buffs the Lightning Staff gives seems like an especially good fit for the Arcanist, DW still came out on top for me. I must say I'm terrible at parsing (as you can see below) and I didn't use a meta setup, so please take these tests with a huge grain of salt, but perhaps someone still finds the results interesting.
Lightning Staff: 96400 DPS
DW: 107990 DPS (102K with the same skill bars as the Lightning Staff)
Bow: 100939 DPS (with Endless Hail instead of Poison Injection the DPS was similar)
Inferno Staff: 96167 DPS
Is lightning even working? Your fatecarver is nearly exactly the same average and max damage per hit with lightning compared to fire staff. I wouldn't expect exactly 12% increase but I would expect AN increase.
edit: Also the DoT's on your Fire Stick setup are just barely any better as well. Like 2-3% tops. Somethings up.
Yeah, I was surprised too. The average DPS of Flail with the Lightning Staff was 11% higher than with the Inferno Staff, so the Direct Damage portion of the buff seems to work. And I guess Fatecarver counts both as a DOT and Channeled ability so that it gets buffed equally by both staffs.
It is indeed weird that the DPS of Blockade of Fire was less than 4% higher with the Inferno Staff though, even though the ability had an equal amount of critical hits between the two parses. The DPS from Fulminating Rune was apparently only 5,6% higher with the IS, but the lower number of crits of that ability (49% compared to 61% on the LS parse) probably has something to do with that.
In any event, I'm curious what results other (better
) players get when they compare the different weapons. 1 -
RaptorRodeoGod✭✭✭✭✭skinnycheeks wrote: »So I thought I'd try out the different weapons (except Frost Staff and S&B) on the front bar of an Arcanist and despite the fact that the buffs the Lightning Staff gives seems like an especially good fit for the Arcanist, DW still came out on top for me. I must say I'm terrible at parsing (as you can see below) and I didn't use a meta setup, so please take these tests with a huge grain of salt, but perhaps someone still finds the results interesting.
Lightning Staff: 96400 DPS
DW: 107990 DPS (102K with the same skill bars as the Lightning Staff)
Bow: 100939 DPS (with Endless Hail instead of Poison Injection the DPS was similar)
Inferno Staff: 96167 DPS
Is lightning even working? Your fatecarver is nearly exactly the same average and max damage per hit with lightning compared to fire staff. I wouldn't expect exactly 12% increase but I would expect AN increase.
edit: Also the DoT's on your Fire Stick setup are just barely any better as well. Like 2-3% tops. Somethings up.
lightning and flame staff both boost beam the same - 12% to DoT with flame or 12% to channel with lightning. flame is probably actually ever so slightly better than lightning for an arcanist.
Thats to be expected because Beam is a Channelled DoT, so reguardless its getting a 12% buff from either staff.
Personally I'd expect flame staff to do better, because the class is DoT heavy, and the ultimate is a DoT, but I haven't tested yet.Add a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
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Veteran players have been alienated and disengaged from Overland since One Tamriel, due to the lack of difficulty, and pushed into dungeons and trials; the minority of content in the Elder Scrolls Online. We can't take the repetition anymore, fix Overland engagement for Vet players. I don't even care if it's not combat related anymore, just make Overland engaging again.
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.1 -
skinnycheeks✭✭✭✭✭RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »
Thats to be expected because Beam is a Channelled DoT, so reguardless its getting a 12% buff from either staff.
Personally I'd expect flame staff to do better, because the class is DoT heavy, and the ultimate is a DoT, but I haven't tested yet.
yeah I didn't say it shouldn't be expected. i was responding to danno81 -
RaptorRodeoGod✭✭✭✭✭skinnycheeks wrote: »RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »
Thats to be expected because Beam is a Channelled DoT, so reguardless its getting a 12% buff from either staff.
Personally I'd expect flame staff to do better, because the class is DoT heavy, and the ultimate is a DoT, but I haven't tested yet.
yeah I didn't say it shouldn't be expected. i was responding to danno8
My bad, I meant to quote the guy just above you 😬😂Add a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
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Veteran players have been alienated and disengaged from Overland since One Tamriel, due to the lack of difficulty, and pushed into dungeons and trials; the minority of content in the Elder Scrolls Online. We can't take the repetition anymore, fix Overland engagement for Vet players. I don't even care if it's not combat related anymore, just make Overland engaging again.
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Honestly, I love this new DoT/Direct identity of staves, but DoT effects usually deal 15-35% of general dps in PvE (besides Arcanist), with ~35-40% max on DK
And even with that fact, Lightining also extra buffs channeled effects...
Isn't it too much for one weapon? Inferno also needs some love to be competitive. Maybe let Inferno to buff channeled as well, instead of Lightining?
Heavy attacks can be adjusted separately from this passive somehow, and not exclusive to Lightning Staff
Would have to test myself personally but based on the numbers listed here I'd guess the lightning staff is overtuned compared to the fire staff, but i think it's simply a tuning issue instead of design one now which is good.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX3 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I feel like skills should have an advanced stats tab that lists what components are what kind of damage. It is really annoying to have to test to see what passives boosts what skills (even more annoying when something turns out to be bugged but that is a different problem).
Playing since beta...13 -
lQrukl✭✭✭✭
The biggest mystery for me is Storm Atro zaps.I feel like skills should have an advanced stats tab that lists what components are what kind of damage. It is really annoying to have to test to see what passives boosts what skills (even more annoying when something turns out to be bugged but that is a different problem).
I know that it is DoT, but... is it channeled?
I mean, atro literally channel lightning stream, but who knows zos...
0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭skinnycheeks wrote: »So I thought I'd try out the different weapons (except Frost Staff and S&B) on the front bar of an Arcanist and despite the fact that the buffs the Lightning Staff gives seems like an especially good fit for the Arcanist, DW still came out on top for me. I must say I'm terrible at parsing (as you can see below) and I didn't use a meta setup, so please take these tests with a huge grain of salt, but perhaps someone still finds the results interesting.
Lightning Staff: 96400 DPS
DW: 107990 DPS (102K with the same skill bars as the Lightning Staff)
Bow: 100939 DPS (with Endless Hail instead of Poison Injection the DPS was similar)
Inferno Staff: 96167 DPS
Is lightning even working? Your fatecarver is nearly exactly the same average and max damage per hit with lightning compared to fire staff. I wouldn't expect exactly 12% increase but I would expect AN increase.
edit: Also the DoT's on your Fire Stick setup are just barely any better as well. Like 2-3% tops. Somethings up.
lightning and flame staff both boost beam the same - 12% to DoT with flame or 12% to channel with lightning. flame is probably actually ever so slightly better than lightning for an arcanist.
I thought DoT's were fire and forget over time skills, whereas channels were not considered DoT's since you don't fire and forget.
I mean Jabs hasn't been affected by DoT increasing sets for a long time. It is considered a channelled, direct damage AoE skill. Radiant is considered a channelled, direct damage single target skill.
If that is not the case then why do they need to specify channels and DoT's in the above tooltips for the new effect? Wouldn't all channels just be DoTs and included with Flame Sticks by nature?
Edit: Well apparently Fatecarver and Radiant are channelled DoT's.
Apparently playing this game for nearly 10 years has no bearing on whether one can easily recognize a skills basic classifications. On a side note, does that mean that Jabs will double dip into Lightning because it is a Channelled, direct damage skill?Edited by danno8 on July 25, 2023 12:01AM1 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭
I thought DoT's were fire and forget over time skills, whereas channels were not considered DoT's since you don't fire and forget.
I mean Jabs hasn't been affected by DoT increasing sets for a long time. It is considered a channelled, direct damage AoE skill. Radiant is considered a channelled, direct damage single target skill.
If that is not the case then why do they need to specify channels and DoT's in the above tooltips for the new effect? Wouldn't all channels just be DoTs and included with Flame Sticks by nature?
Edit: Well apparently Fatecarver and Radiant are channelled DoT's.
Apparently playing this game for nearly 10 years has no bearing on whether one can easily recognize a skills basic classifications. On a side note, does that mean that Jabs will double dip into Lightning because it is a Channelled, direct damage skill?
Pretty sure Radiant is and always has been a DoT.
Jabs was changed from DoT to Direct a while back due to PvE balancing issues with CP 1.0. Odds are, this could be changed back and have no impact on the game since it was a change from so long ago. It is MEANT to be a DoT but simply isn't due to reasons that no longer exist.
Welcome to ESO.
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