Are heavy attack builds dead now?

Libonotus

I just heard that they removed the cleave which is a nerf to heavy attack builds. Are heavy attack builds still viable in this PTS or are they dead in the water?

Zastrix

Libonotus wrote: »

I just heard that they removed the cleave which is a nerf to heavy attack builds. Are heavy attack builds still viable in this PTS or are they dead in the water?

Not removed, just made it be active only on the last tick of the channel, rather than full duration. HA are probably viable a they're okay for boss fights.

Tyrant_Tim

Lightning still works for single-target quite well, if you want to make an AoE cleave heavy attack build, you’re going to want to run a 2H…

You’ll be hitting less damage and in melee range but you will cleave all of your heavy attack damage.

SacredNym

You're going to be relying on skills more for AoE cleave but you should still be able to clear Vet content just fine.

Overland is kind of annoying since so many mobs don't have enough HP for the AoE tick to go off, but in my testing I just swapped to spamming Unstable Wall if there wasn't a 60k+ target.

Arena solos don't feel any different to me. Mobs in these places are just too spread out for the Tri-focus spread to be useful, and will die before they end up grouped up in my experience.

Vet Dungeon solos are probably the biggest pain point, but it's just a matter to taking longer due to less cleave. It's not any easier or harder given the value of Oaken's defensive buffs and passive healing sources like Crit Surge. The difference in kill times on Normal, even for newer DLC dungeons like Scrivener's, isn't really noticeable. And the inclusion of group members in either difficulty makes the difference negligible.

In single-target scenarios, such as 99% of boss fights, you are buffed, not nerfed, since the change to Ancient Knowledge affects Lightning Staff Heavy attacks.

Lightning staff is still by far the best option since sets like Sergeants mail are essentially 3x effective on the channeled attack.

It's a little more awkward in some situations, but it's still strong af and easy as pie.

Milanesa_Napolitana

Not dead, just weaker on scenarios with multiple enemies, because now you don't get a lot of cleave damage. Haven't tested myself but apparently with the new passive you should do a bit more damage on single target.

Yajnho

SacredNym wrote: »

You're going to be relying on skills more for AoE cleave but you should still be able to clear Vet content just fine.

Overland is kind of annoying since so many mobs don't have enough HP for the AoE tick to go off, but in my testing I just swapped to spamming Unstable Wall if there wasn't a 60k+ target.

Arena solos don't feel any different to me. Mobs in these places are just too spread out for the Tri-focus spread to be useful, and will die before they end up grouped up in my experience.

Vet Dungeon solos are probably the biggest pain point, but it's just a matter to taking longer due to less cleave. It's not any easier or harder given the value of Oaken's defensive buffs and passive healing sources like Crit Surge. The difference in kill times on Normal, even for newer DLC dungeons like Scrivener's, isn't really noticeable. And the inclusion of group members in either difficulty makes the difference negligible.

In single-target scenarios, such as 99% of boss fights, you are buffed, not nerfed, since the change to Ancient Knowledge affects Lightning Staff Heavy attacks.

Lightning staff is still by far the best option since sets like Sergeants mail are essentially 3x effective on the channeled attack.

It's a little more awkward in some situations, but it's still strong af and easy as pie.

Not all heavy attack builds are oakensoul builds. The loss of cleave is more than a little inconvenient when you don’t have all the defensive buffs from the ring up 100 % of the time.

SacredNym

Yajnho wrote: »

SacredNym wrote: »

You're going to be relying on skills more for AoE cleave but you should still be able to clear Vet content just fine.

Overland is kind of annoying since so many mobs don't have enough HP for the AoE tick to go off, but in my testing I just swapped to spamming Unstable Wall if there wasn't a 60k+ target.

Arena solos don't feel any different to me. Mobs in these places are just too spread out for the Tri-focus spread to be useful, and will die before they end up grouped up in my experience.

Vet Dungeon solos are probably the biggest pain point, but it's just a matter to taking longer due to less cleave. It's not any easier or harder given the value of Oaken's defensive buffs and passive healing sources like Crit Surge. The difference in kill times on Normal, even for newer DLC dungeons like Scrivener's, isn't really noticeable. And the inclusion of group members in either difficulty makes the difference negligible.

In single-target scenarios, such as 99% of boss fights, you are buffed, not nerfed, since the change to Ancient Knowledge affects Lightning Staff Heavy attacks.

Lightning staff is still by far the best option since sets like Sergeants mail are essentially 3x effective on the channeled attack.

It's a little more awkward in some situations, but it's still strong af and easy as pie.

Not all heavy attack builds are oakensoul builds. The loss of cleave is more than a little inconvenient when you don’t have all the defensive buffs from the ring up 100 % of the time.

The goal of a heavy attack build is to spend as much time as humanly possible Heavy Attacking. Given this, maintaining several skill sourced buffs, even just the offensive ones, comes at a much greater opportunity cost than on Light Attack or Velothi based builds, since your skills per minute fall to 33% of what those builds can do. This means that Heavy Attack builds simply aren't able to leverage the additional skill slots that forgoing Oakensoul provides. As such, I've never considered it a viable option even before the change to Tri-Focus. Sure people do it, but it doesn't mean it isn't bad.

Tyrant_Tim

If you want to check out a 2H Heavy Attack build that hits similar numbers to Lightning on live, but in melee and cleave for u39; throw on Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master’s.

BasP

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If you want to check out a 2H Heavy Attack build that hits similar numbers to Lightning on live, but in melee and cleave for u39; throw on Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master’s.

Sadly I had a hard time reaching similar numbers myself on a few different gear and skill setups I just tried. While writing this I remembered I should have done a setup with Barbed Trap too, which I didn't, but that probably won't increase my DPS by 20K. I must be missing something

These were the "best" setups I tested (though I did mess up one of the parses because I find weaving with Wrecking Blow a bit weird):

I should've used a light piece of Slimecraw for this parse in hindsight:

jaws343

BasP wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If you want to check out a 2H Heavy Attack build that hits similar numbers to Lightning on live, but in melee and cleave for u39; throw on Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master’s.

Sadly I had a hard time reaching similar numbers myself on a few different gear and skill setups I just tried. While writing this I remembered I should have done a setup with Barbed Trap too, which I didn't, but that probably won't increase my DPS by 20K. I must be missing something

These were the "best" setups I tested (though I did mess up one of the parses because I find weaving with Wrecking Blow a bit weird):

I should've used a light piece of Slimecraw for this parse in hindsight:

Why are you running Wrecking Blow? If you really wan to run an actual Two Handed Skill, you are probably better off with Carve. Since Oakensoul provides empower, running WB just wastes cast time doing damage with a single target skill that could other wise be used for more AOE or heavy attack damage.

BasP

jaws343 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If you want to check out a 2H Heavy Attack build that hits similar numbers to Lightning on live, but in melee and cleave for u39; throw on Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master’s.

Sadly I had a hard time reaching similar numbers myself on a few different gear and skill setups I just tried. While writing this I remembered I should have done a setup with Barbed Trap too, which I didn't, but that probably won't increase my DPS by 20K. I must be missing something

These were the "best" setups I tested (though I did mess up one of the parses because I find weaving with Wrecking Blow a bit weird):

I should've used a light piece of Slimecraw for this parse in hindsight:

Why are you running Wrecking Blow? If you really wan to run an actual Two Handed Skill, you are probably better off with Carve. Since Oakensoul provides empower, running WB just wastes cast time doing damage with a single target skill that could other wise be used for more AOE or heavy attack damage.

I first did a parse with Crystal Weapon but that did around 67K DPS. I then tried WB due to the new TH passive: "Follow Up: This passive now increases your damage done with all two handed attacks by 5/10% for 4 seconds after completing a fully charged Heavy Attack", so using that as a spammable in between Heavy Attacks seemed like an okay idea.

I just tried a parse with the skills and CP listed in Nefas' Most Powerful Oakensorc Heavy Attack build (the Storm Atronach Rotation) as well, though I used Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master, and my DPS was even worse than in the screenshots above (only 68K). I then switched the 2H weapon for a Lightning Staff and did 87K, which was to be expected.

Thus far it seems that using a Two Handed Heavy Attack build isn't really viable, unless there is a setup that can significantly perform better than those I've tested thus far (or maybe I am just overlooking something).

jaws343

BasP wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If you want to check out a 2H Heavy Attack build that hits similar numbers to Lightning on live, but in melee and cleave for u39; throw on Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master’s.

Sadly I had a hard time reaching similar numbers myself on a few different gear and skill setups I just tried. While writing this I remembered I should have done a setup with Barbed Trap too, which I didn't, but that probably won't increase my DPS by 20K. I must be missing something

These were the "best" setups I tested (though I did mess up one of the parses because I find weaving with Wrecking Blow a bit weird):

I should've used a light piece of Slimecraw for this parse in hindsight:

Why are you running Wrecking Blow? If you really wan to run an actual Two Handed Skill, you are probably better off with Carve. Since Oakensoul provides empower, running WB just wastes cast time doing damage with a single target skill that could other wise be used for more AOE or heavy attack damage.

I first did a parse with Crystal Weapon but that did around 67K DPS. I then tried WB due to the new TH passive: "Follow Up: This passive now increases your damage done with all two handed attacks by 5/10% for 4 seconds after completing a fully charged Heavy Attack", so using that as a spammable in between Heavy Attacks seemed like an okay idea.

I just tried a parse with the skills and CP listed in Nefas' Most Powerful Oakensorc Heavy Attack build (the Storm Atronach Rotation) as well, though I used Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master, and my DPS was even worse than in the screenshots above (only 68K). I then switched the 2H weapon for a Lightning Staff and did 87K, which was to be expected.

Thus far it seems that using a Two Handed Heavy Attack isn't really viable, unless there is a setup that can significantly perform better than those I've tested thus far (or maybe I am just overlooking something).

I'd still recommend trying with Carve. The Follow up passive will apply to it as well. And it is instant cast and AOE and applies a DOT to targets.

BasP

jaws343 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If you want to check out a 2H Heavy Attack build that hits similar numbers to Lightning on live, but in melee and cleave for u39; throw on Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master’s.

Sadly I had a hard time reaching similar numbers myself on a few different gear and skill setups I just tried. While writing this I remembered I should have done a setup with Barbed Trap too, which I didn't, but that probably won't increase my DPS by 20K. I must be missing something

These were the "best" setups I tested (though I did mess up one of the parses because I find weaving with Wrecking Blow a bit weird):

I should've used a light piece of Slimecraw for this parse in hindsight:

Why are you running Wrecking Blow? If you really wan to run an actual Two Handed Skill, you are probably better off with Carve. Since Oakensoul provides empower, running WB just wastes cast time doing damage with a single target skill that could other wise be used for more AOE or heavy attack damage.

I first did a parse with Crystal Weapon but that did around 67K DPS. I then tried WB due to the new TH passive: "Follow Up: This passive now increases your damage done with all two handed attacks by 5/10% for 4 seconds after completing a fully charged Heavy Attack", so using that as a spammable in between Heavy Attacks seemed like an okay idea.

I just tried a parse with the skills and CP listed in Nefas' Most Powerful Oakensorc Heavy Attack build (the Storm Atronach Rotation) as well, though I used Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master, and my DPS was even worse than in the screenshots above (only 68K). I then switched the 2H weapon for a Lightning Staff and did 87K, which was to be expected.

Thus far it seems that using a Two Handed Heavy Attack isn't really viable, unless there is a setup that can significantly perform better than those I've tested thus far (or maybe I am just overlooking something).

I'd still recommend trying with Carve. The Follow up passive will apply to it as well. And it is instant cast and AOE and applies a DOT to targets.

I just tried it and Carve indeed works (relatively) well. One of my two parses with Carve as a spammable was 72K DPS, just slightly below the 72+ DPS I did with the Maelstrom Greatsword setup in one of my first screenshots. But it's sadly still far below the DPS with a Lightning Staff.

Edit: And that'll be the last HA parse for me for today I think. My index finger is beginning to hurt a little from holding down the same mouse button for so long

edward_frigidhands

I was under the impression that HA builds will use Inferno staff.

NoSoup

BasP wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If you want to check out a 2H Heavy Attack build that hits similar numbers to Lightning on live, but in melee and cleave for u39; throw on Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master’s.

Sadly I had a hard time reaching similar numbers myself on a few different gear and skill setups I just tried. While writing this I remembered I should have done a setup with Barbed Trap too, which I didn't, but that probably won't increase my DPS by 20K. I must be missing something

These were the "best" setups I tested (though I did mess up one of the parses because I find weaving with Wrecking Blow a bit weird):

I should've used a light piece of Slimecraw for this parse in hindsight:

Why are you running Wrecking Blow? If you really wan to run an actual Two Handed Skill, you are probably better off with Carve. Since Oakensoul provides empower, running WB just wastes cast time doing damage with a single target skill that could other wise be used for more AOE or heavy attack damage.

I first did a parse with Crystal Weapon but that did around 67K DPS. I then tried WB due to the new TH passive: "Follow Up: This passive now increases your damage done with all two handed attacks by 5/10% for 4 seconds after completing a fully charged Heavy Attack", so using that as a spammable in between Heavy Attacks seemed like an okay idea.

I just tried a parse with the skills and CP listed in Nefas' Most Powerful Oakensorc Heavy Attack build (the Storm Atronach Rotation) as well, though I used Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master, and my DPS was even worse than in the screenshots above (only 68K). I then switched the 2H weapon for a Lightning Staff and did 87K, which was to be expected.

Thus far it seems that using a Two Handed Heavy Attack isn't really viable, unless there is a setup that can significantly perform better than those I've tested thus far (or maybe I am just overlooking something).

I'd still recommend trying with Carve. The Follow up passive will apply to it as well. And it is instant cast and AOE and applies a DOT to targets.

I just tried it and Carve indeed works (relatively) well. One of my two parses with Carve as a spammable was 72K DPS, just slightly below the 72+ DPS I did with the Maelstrom Greatsword setup in one of my first screenshots. But it's sadly still far below the DPS with a Lightning Staff.

Edit: And that'll be the last HA parse for me for today I think. My index finger is beginning to hurt a little from holding down the same mouse button for so long

The issue is the "adds". You're not going to get accurate results with just the iron attro. Single target damage for a lightning HA build should increase with the next patch given the buff to aoes. It's the splash damage that's going to really hurt these builds. To see if moving to a 2H is a better solution you need to add so other dummies to the mix to see which performs better in a situation where there's multiple targets.

BasP

NoSoup wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If you want to check out a 2H Heavy Attack build that hits similar numbers to Lightning on live, but in melee and cleave for u39; throw on Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master’s.

Sadly I had a hard time reaching similar numbers myself on a few different gear and skill setups I just tried. While writing this I remembered I should have done a setup with Barbed Trap too, which I didn't, but that probably won't increase my DPS by 20K. I must be missing something

These were the "best" setups I tested (though I did mess up one of the parses because I find weaving with Wrecking Blow a bit weird):

I should've used a light piece of Slimecraw for this parse in hindsight:

Why are you running Wrecking Blow? If you really wan to run an actual Two Handed Skill, you are probably better off with Carve. Since Oakensoul provides empower, running WB just wastes cast time doing damage with a single target skill that could other wise be used for more AOE or heavy attack damage.

I first did a parse with Crystal Weapon but that did around 67K DPS. I then tried WB due to the new TH passive: "Follow Up: This passive now increases your damage done with all two handed attacks by 5/10% for 4 seconds after completing a fully charged Heavy Attack", so using that as a spammable in between Heavy Attacks seemed like an okay idea.

I just tried a parse with the skills and CP listed in Nefas' Most Powerful Oakensorc Heavy Attack build (the Storm Atronach Rotation) as well, though I used Noble Duelist instead of Storm Master, and my DPS was even worse than in the screenshots above (only 68K). I then switched the 2H weapon for a Lightning Staff and did 87K, which was to be expected.

Thus far it seems that using a Two Handed Heavy Attack isn't really viable, unless there is a setup that can significantly perform better than those I've tested thus far (or maybe I am just overlooking something).

I'd still recommend trying with Carve. The Follow up passive will apply to it as well. And it is instant cast and AOE and applies a DOT to targets.

I just tried it and Carve indeed works (relatively) well. One of my two parses with Carve as a spammable was 72K DPS, just slightly below the 72+ DPS I did with the Maelstrom Greatsword setup in one of my first screenshots. But it's sadly still far below the DPS with a Lightning Staff.

Edit: And that'll be the last HA parse for me for today I think. My index finger is beginning to hurt a little from holding down the same mouse button for so long

The issue is the "adds". You're not going to get accurate results with just the iron attro. Single target damage for a lightning HA build should increase with the next patch given the buff to aoes. It's the splash damage that's going to really hurt these builds. To see if moving to a 2H is a better solution you need to add so other dummies to the mix to see which performs better in a situation where there's multiple targets.

With five 3M dummies placed behind the Iron Atro the Lightning Staff still seemed to perform best to me (though in all three parses below I forgot to turn those 3M dummies around so that I'd benefit from the Backstabber passive against them too). The splash damage versus three adds was a bit higher in the 2H than Lightning Staff parse, but the DPS versus the 4th and 5th add was significantly lower. And during the entire parse against the Trial Dummy the total DPS with a Lightning Staff was 209K vs 175K with 2H. (In any event, I wouldn't switch to a Fire Staff.)

Edit: Or did you mean other Trial Dummies instead of 3M dummies? I don't have time to test that right now because I have to go to work, but could do that when I get back home this evening. It still wouldn't change much in the end I think. Yes, the nerf to Tri Focus definitely hurts the splash damage from Heavy Attacks. But are Lightning HA builds dead? I don't really think so.

JerBearESO

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I was under the impression that HA builds will use Inferno staff.

No.... The dot from inferno heavy is GREAT for backbar inferno. Frontbar inferno is all about status effects now

techprince

Use Wrecking Blow -> HA and repeat.

Malkosha

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

JerBearESO

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

Because the AoE was exploited in PvP imperial city to nuke players standing near any mob. 20k+ per tick actual damage on players.... PvE wise HA is losing a lot of cleave but it is gaining some single target damage at least

BasP

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

You could say that Heavy Attack builds were indeed overpowered to some extent for the relatively low amount of effort it takes to deal good damage, while having zero sustain issues and being tanky to boot (if you use the Oakensoul ring). Any decent Oaken HA build trivializes most PvE content in the game, aside from the latest Trial Trifecta's I believe.

Adaarye

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

Yeah this change has killed the combat side of the game for me and many of my friends.

Had I not spent sooo much money on housing, I would quit ESO entirely. All I will be doing in ESO is housing going forward and as soon as I have all my houses decorated, I will be killing plus on my three accounts.

It's sad when player complaints ruin the game for so many people who PVE and need a build like the HA meta in order to be able to play endgame content. Why can't Trifocus be turned off in PVP?

My Fibro/Athritis won't allow me to light attack weave efficiently or for very long periods.

I've been eyeing another game thats other-abled friendly. Are the PTS changes final? If so, it's time for me to start dumping my housing whale money elsewhere.

FrancisCrawford

SacredNym wrote: »

Yajnho wrote: »

SacredNym wrote: »

You're going to be relying on skills more for AoE cleave but you should still be able to clear Vet content just fine.

Overland is kind of annoying since so many mobs don't have enough HP for the AoE tick to go off, but in my testing I just swapped to spamming Unstable Wall if there wasn't a 60k+ target.

Arena solos don't feel any different to me. Mobs in these places are just too spread out for the Tri-focus spread to be useful, and will die before they end up grouped up in my experience.

Vet Dungeon solos are probably the biggest pain point, but it's just a matter to taking longer due to less cleave. It's not any easier or harder given the value of Oaken's defensive buffs and passive healing sources like Crit Surge. The difference in kill times on Normal, even for newer DLC dungeons like Scrivener's, isn't really noticeable. And the inclusion of group members in either difficulty makes the difference negligible.

In single-target scenarios, such as 99% of boss fights, you are buffed, not nerfed, since the change to Ancient Knowledge affects Lightning Staff Heavy attacks.

Lightning staff is still by far the best option since sets like Sergeants mail are essentially 3x effective on the channeled attack.

It's a little more awkward in some situations, but it's still strong af and easy as pie.

Not all heavy attack builds are oakensoul builds. The loss of cleave is more than a little inconvenient when you don’t have all the defensive buffs from the ring up 100 % of the time.

The goal of a heavy attack build is to spend as much time as humanly possible Heavy Attacking. Given this, maintaining several skill sourced buffs, even just the offensive ones, comes at a much greater opportunity cost than on Light Attack or Velothi based builds, since your skills per minute fall to 33% of what those builds can do. This means that Heavy Attack builds simply aren't able to leverage the additional skill slots that forgoing Oakensoul provides. As such, I've never considered it a viable option even before the change to Tri-Focus. Sure people do it, but it doesn't mean it isn't bad.

40%, actually, I think. Don't HA + skill builds run on a 2.5 second cycle?

FrancisCrawford

JerBearESO wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

Because the AoE was exploited in PvP imperial city to nuke players standing near any mob. 20k+ per tick actual damage on players.... PvE wise HA is losing a lot of cleave but it is gaining some single target damage at least

Not just that. On these forums, some people were upset that other players could now come close(r) to their PvE accomplishments.

CGPsaint

JerBearESO wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

Because the AoE was exploited in PvP imperial city to nuke players standing near any mob. 20k+ per tick actual damage on players.... PvE wise HA is losing a lot of cleave but it is gaining some single target damage at least

Yet another example of PvP "balancing" impacting PvE play. The fact that they are not able to balance PvP and PvE separately is mind-boggling.

colossalvoids

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

Because the AoE was exploited in PvP imperial city to nuke players standing near any mob. 20k+ per tick actual damage on players.... PvE wise HA is losing a lot of cleave but it is gaining some single target damage at least

Not just that. On these forums, some people were upset that other players could now come close(r) to their PvE accomplishments.

If those "upset" people weren't right, there won't be any changes as a follow up to begin with. It's about diminishing content and achievements that is problematic, if zos's only way to deal with it is another bad decision is entirely another topic tbh and fully up to them, not forums.

Arcanasx

CGPsaint wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

Because the AoE was exploited in PvP imperial city to nuke players standing near any mob. 20k+ per tick actual damage on players.... PvE wise HA is losing a lot of cleave but it is gaining some single target damage at least

Yet another example of PvP "balancing" impacting PvE play. The fact that they are not able to balance PvP and PvE separately is mind-boggling.

Its actually the opposite. Heavy attack builds were deleted/sacrificed from PvP so they could become stronger and more relevant for PvE. Of course the ridiculously inflated damage from tri-focus affecting other players needed to be fixed.

Mind-boggling irony considering how certain kinds of players have been complaining a lot how supposedly "unfairly targeted" they are, yet they're also totally apathetic to how their own builds have been negatively effecting others over multiple updates.

Bushido2513

Arcanasx wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

Because the AoE was exploited in PvP imperial city to nuke players standing near any mob. 20k+ per tick actual damage on players.... PvE wise HA is losing a lot of cleave but it is gaining some single target damage at least

Yet another example of PvP "balancing" impacting PvE play. The fact that they are not able to balance PvP and PvE separately is mind-boggling.

Its actually the opposite. Heavy attack builds were deleted/sacrificed from PvP so they could become stronger and more relevant for PvE. Of course the ridiculously inflated damage from tri-focus affecting other players needed to be fixed.

Mind-boggling irony considering how certain kinds of players have been complaining a lot how supposedly "unfairly targeted" they are, yet they're also totally apathetic to how their own builds have been negatively effecting others over multiple updates.

Yeah but don't gloss over the biggest point of all of that. Neither group should be complaining because PvE and PvP balance should NOT be linked in the first place!

If only we had a container that could be used to hold rule sets for when players entered a PvP zone that would be strongly used to balance out PvP centric issues. If only

CameraBeardThePirate

CGPsaint wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

Malkosha wrote: »

I still don't understand why they made this change. I won't attempt to read the Dev's minds but without the info, this just seems to be a way to kill, or perhaps overly complicate the current HA playstyle. When you consider the AOE splash damage was a key component of the HA build, by placing it on the final tick ... which might not even go off if the MOB you're targeting in the pack dies early ... you create a huge change to the entire HA concept. This not only lowers damage but also decreases survivability. I can find no reason for this change. Was it overpowered? Did it interfere with another persons game play? Did it affect their future design plans? Maybe someone can enlighten me because I don't get it.

Because the AoE was exploited in PvP imperial city to nuke players standing near any mob. 20k+ per tick actual damage on players.... PvE wise HA is losing a lot of cleave but it is gaining some single target damage at least

Yet another example of PvP "balancing" impacting PvE play. The fact that they are not able to balance PvP and PvE separately is mind-boggling.

Oh my God enough of this ridiculous statement. It goes both ways, every single patch. PvE changes affect PvP and vice versa. Neither happens more often than the other. As Arcanasx said, HA builds were literally deleted from PvP outside of the Tri-Focus exploit so that they could buff Empower in PvE.

Besides, PvP isn't the only reason Tri-Focus was nerfed - it was a symptom of the problem that Tri-Focus was a headache to balance HA sets around.

i11ionward

Why are the Tri-Focus changes associated with PVP? The last tick of lighting staff HA still procs Tri-Focus, and the Tri-Focus will still hit players in PVP when using HA on monster. Am I wrong? The problem of Tri-Focus in pvp is not solved, why then do many keep saying that the changes were made because of pvp?

remosito

i11ionward wrote: »

Why are the Tri-Focus changes associated with PVP? The last tick of lighting staff HA still procs Tri-Focus, and the Tri-Focus will still hit players in PVP when using HA on monster. Am I wrong? The problem of Tri-Focus in pvp is not solved, why then do many keep saying that the changes were made because of pvp?

maybe not solved but certainly lessened. and gives a window till last tick to move away/interrupt/..

but yeah.. proper solution would have been different