Elemental Susceptibility needs a change with the new Inferno Staff passive.

SandandStars

Y’all getting killed by toons with fire staves in PvP??

No?

Me neither.

It’s because they’re weak.

Thank God they’ll do 10% less damage.

Now those poor Masters DW guys will have a chance.

Turtle_Bot

Since we want to include a bunch of random outside factors here, lets go over everything shall we?

Lets take my solo PvP magsorc as an example, since it's a typical magsorc build for PvP that already uses draugrkin to be able to deal some damage.

Tooltips of damaging abilities slotted on magsorc in PvP, with front bar flame destro staff.

Crushing Shock

Frags

Curse

Overload

Based on the buffed tooltips (well standard buffs of sorcery, continuous and prophecy) shown in the spoiler above, the above abilities lose the following damage per cast.
Crushing shock:
Loses 939 damage with the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.
Frags:
Loses 1102 damage with the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff on the hard cast, it loses 1829 damage on the proc cast.
Curse:
Loses 1331 damage from its single target portion with the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.
Overload:
Loses 1268 damage with the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.

All up, that is a damage loss of between 4640 (assuming hard cast frags) and 5367 (assuming proc frags).

This doesn't take into account the damage from the status effects which also lose 10% of their damage thanks to DoTs being counted as single target damage.

That maximum of +1500 damage (not guaranteed since outside of ele sus, there's no way to guarantee all 3 status effects proc at the same time) from the 3 status effects doesn't even come close to the damage lost across all the abilities here, abilities which are CAST TIME and direct damage not channel or Damage over time so sorc can't even switch to lightning staff to make up the damage difference here from the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.

And does sorc get anything for this nearly 5.5k damage loss? Nope, no major prophecy access, no buffs to the abilities damage, no rework to make the abilities undodgeable or at least much harder to dodge, nothing. Sorc just got a flat 10% damage nerf across the board for no reason at all. It's not like magsorc was even good in PvP, it was playable, but way far behind NB, DK, Warden, Arcanist and even stamsorc which is only better due to all the procs it can stack.

Elemental Susceptibility would have needed a +1500 damage per first tick with flame staff equipped to even come close to making up for the bare minimum damage loss to a sorc from this change, or 3 times the amount that was given in the patch notes.

Even if we slot double dot poisons for another status (poison status), that's 2000 max damage or roughly 40% of the minimum damage lost due to the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.

Ele sus will not be an issue with this change and this change is just a straight up 10% damage nerf across the board to the already struggling magsorcs in PvP.

Jazraena

I just rebuilt my Magsorc for NoProc this last Mayhem, ending with very similar tooltips to those up here. The build was... okayish.

Sure is very motivating to learn I'm loosing all that and should really switch to a bow.

Like, I don't expect perfect build flexibility in a competitive PvP environment, but at least let me play a pure mage and don't force me to be an archer or meleeist.

Quethrosar

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

how do the sets get effected by it? 1st set sais nothing about doing anything useful based on some other skill.
the second set sais it will heal you after some ticks and i assume you are worried about the ticks from the elemental skill making it heal you faster?
not sure how healing for 4415 health helps much.

I don't think you understand the sets entirely.

Draugrkin adds a flat 1k damage to Ele Sus (plus another 1k damage from the burning) every time it procs. Dragon's does the same, only instead of 1k it's about 700 damage.

Throw in the new Inferno Staff passive for another 1.5k damage to Ele Sus.

With a Draugrkin Inferno, Ele Sus is now dealing ~4-5k (plus another 2-3k burning) damage every time it procs, without having any cost. If you really wanted to fit in Dragon's as well, you're now doing 5-6k damage (plus another 3-4k burning) with EleSus alone, for free, every time it procs (either on cast or every 7 seconds).

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

how do the sets get effected by it? 1st set sais nothing about doing anything useful based on some other skill.
the second set sais it will heal you after some ticks and i assume you are worried about the ticks from the elemental skill making it heal you faster?
not sure how healing for 4415 health helps much.

I don't think you understand the sets entirely.

Draugrkin adds a flat 1k damage to Ele Sus (plus another 1k damage from the burning) every time it procs. Dragon's does the same, only instead of 1k it's about 700 damage.

Throw in the new Inferno Staff passive for another 1.5k damage to Ele Sus.

With a Draugrkin Inferno, Ele Sus is now dealing ~4-5k (plus another 2-3k burning) damage every time it procs, without having any cost. If you really wanted to fit in Dragon's as well, you're now doing 5-6k damage (plus another 3-4k burning) with EleSus alone, for free, every time it procs (either on cast or every 7 seconds).

please help me understand how you got all that info out of this description of the set.

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Increases your damage done by 330 but reduces your healing taken by 10

CameraBeardThePirate

Quethrosar wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

how do the sets get effected by it? 1st set sais nothing about doing anything useful based on some other skill.
the second set sais it will heal you after some ticks and i assume you are worried about the ticks from the elemental skill making it heal you faster?
not sure how healing for 4415 health helps much.

I don't think you understand the sets entirely.

Draugrkin adds a flat 1k damage to Ele Sus (plus another 1k damage from the burning) every time it procs. Dragon's does the same, only instead of 1k it's about 700 damage.

Throw in the new Inferno Staff passive for another 1.5k damage to Ele Sus.

With a Draugrkin Inferno, Ele Sus is now dealing ~4-5k (plus another 2-3k burning) damage every time it procs, without having any cost. If you really wanted to fit in Dragon's as well, you're now doing 5-6k damage (plus another 3-4k burning) with EleSus alone, for free, every time it procs (either on cast or every 7 seconds).

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

how do the sets get effected by it? 1st set sais nothing about doing anything useful based on some other skill.
the second set sais it will heal you after some ticks and i assume you are worried about the ticks from the elemental skill making it heal you faster?
not sure how healing for 4415 health helps much.

I don't think you understand the sets entirely.

Draugrkin adds a flat 1k damage to Ele Sus (plus another 1k damage from the burning) every time it procs. Dragon's does the same, only instead of 1k it's about 700 damage.

Throw in the new Inferno Staff passive for another 1.5k damage to Ele Sus.

With a Draugrkin Inferno, Ele Sus is now dealing ~4-5k (plus another 2-3k burning) damage every time it procs, without having any cost. If you really wanted to fit in Dragon's as well, you're now doing 5-6k damage (plus another 3-4k burning) with EleSus alone, for free, every time it procs (either on cast or every 7 seconds).

please help me understand how you got all that info out of this description of the set.

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Increases your damage done by 330 but reduces your healing taken by 10

By doing math? The set adds 330 flat damage to every instance of damage you do.

ShawnF

Quethrosar wrote: »

please help me understand how you got all that info out of this description of the set.

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Increases your damage done by 330 but reduces your healing taken by 10

It's not "adds 300 weapon and spell damage" like Hunding's or Julianos.

It's "increases your damage done by 330"

Let's say you're casting the orb from the undaunted skill line, you have 32k magicka & 3500 spell damage. It ticks every second for 998 actual damage.

If you add Julianos you go up to 3800 spell damage, and the orb ticks every second for 1045 actual damage (increase of 47)

If you add Draugrkin instead, the orb ticks every second for 1328 actual damage (increase of 330)

The more damage sources you have, and the faster they tick, the more damage you do. The Arcanist beam ticks 3x/second.

You can check the math for mystic orb on UESP https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills?&id=43415&skillname=Mystic%20Orb&level=66&health=16000&magicka=32000&stamina=12000&spelldamage=3500&weapondamage=1000&showall=1

Quethrosar

thanks wish eso had built in math ui for comparing sets.

Quethrosar

why would this not be killer set for PVE to ?

thedoodle_90

You must have not played PTS because Draugkins Grip has a diff effect now

Hagrett

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

You must have not played PTS because Draugkins Grip has a diff effect now

Care to share what the new effect is?

jaws343

Quethrosar wrote: »

why would this not be killer set for PVE to ?

Mostly because, in PVP, Draugrkin adds a lot of burst potential to a setup. So, being able to frontload or time the damage procs to all hit at once is very useful paired with the set.

In PVE, there are other sets that do more damage over a larger period of time. They aren't all that effective in PVP because DPS isn't really an ideal target to hit in PVP over burst damage.

CameraBeardThePirate

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

You must have not played PTS because Draugkins Grip has a diff effect now

Draugrkin's wasn't in the PTS notes at all, so unless there's a stealth change to it that you can show us I'm not sure how true that is.

thedoodle_90

This is laughable. I used BOTH sets you mention. All golded out with gold glyphs etc. and Elemental suspectibility does less damage than ONE light attack.

katorga

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

This is laughable. I used BOTH sets you mention. All golded out with gold glyphs etc. and Elemental suspectibility does less damage than ONE light attack.

Draugrkin + crushing shock is already surprisingly effective in Live pvp. Players will not use Elemental Susceptibility in PVP, 7.5 seconds between applying effects is too slow. Crushing allows for maximum benefit from the status effect proc percentages, and does good spammable damage on top.

Just wait.

ZOS won't back off of their marquee nerfs to destro staff this patch so I expect draugrkin and dragons be totally nerfed b4 the cycle is through.

Seraphayel

Are people still trying to argue that measly 165 additional damage per damage proc are somehow enough to make a build bursty or pressure the enemy with it? Come on, please be serious. Even if there are 10 proc sources per second, the additional damage is at best laughable.

CameraBeardThePirate

Seraphayel wrote: »

Are people still trying to argue that measly 165 additional damage per damage proc are somehow enough to make a build bursty or pressure the enemy with it? Come on, please be serious. Even if there are 10 proc sources per second, the additional damage is at best laughable.

I'm assuming you've never come across someone using Draugrkin or Dragon's effectively. These sets are very powerful in the right builds.

It also isn't just the damage on the tin - the damage added from Draugrkin and Dragon's is affected by all modifiers, including crit, berserk, vulnerability, etc. The damage is added as base damage.

SandandStars

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Since we want to include a bunch of random outside factors here, lets go over everything shall we?

Lets take my solo PvP magsorc as an example, since it's a typical magsorc build for PvP that already uses draugrkin to be able to deal some damage.

Tooltips of damaging abilities slotted on magsorc in PvP, with front bar flame destro staff.

Crushing Shock

Frags

Curse

Overload

Based on the buffed tooltips (well standard buffs of sorcery, continuous and prophecy) shown in the spoiler above, the above abilities lose the following damage per cast.
Crushing shock:
Loses 939 damage with the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.
Frags:
Loses 1102 damage with the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff on the hard cast, it loses 1829 damage on the proc cast.
Curse:
Loses 1331 damage from its single target portion with the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.
Overload:
Loses 1268 damage with the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.

All up, that is a damage loss of between 4640 (assuming hard cast frags) and 5367 (assuming proc frags).

This doesn't take into account the damage from the status effects which also lose 10% of their damage thanks to DoTs being counted as single target damage.

That maximum of +1500 damage (not guaranteed since outside of ele sus, there's no way to guarantee all 3 status effects proc at the same time) from the 3 status effects doesn't even come close to the damage lost across all the abilities here, abilities which are CAST TIME and direct damage not channel or Damage over time so sorc can't even switch to lightning staff to make up the damage difference here from the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.

And does sorc get anything for this nearly 5.5k damage loss? Nope, no major prophecy access, no buffs to the abilities damage, no rework to make the abilities undodgeable or at least much harder to dodge, nothing. Sorc just got a flat 10% damage nerf across the board for no reason at all. It's not like magsorc was even good in PvP, it was playable, but way far behind NB, DK, Warden, Arcanist and even stamsorc which is only better due to all the procs it can stack.

Elemental Susceptibility would have needed a +1500 damage per first tick with flame staff equipped to even come close to making up for the bare minimum damage loss to a sorc from this change, or 3 times the amount that was given in the patch notes.

Even if we slot double dot poisons for another status (poison status), that's 2000 max damage or roughly 40% of the minimum damage lost due to the removal of the 10% single target damage from flame staff.

Ele sus will not be an issue with this change and this change is just a straight up 10% damage nerf across the board to the already struggling magsorcs in PvP.

Thank you for providing a detailed explanation of how the Inferno Staff change will impact Magsorc.

My magsorc is pretty much a glass cannon to be able to do burst damage to be marginally competitive with NBs and DKs.

This change will end Magsorc’s ability to compete with skilled NBs and DKs.

At this point I have no idea if the dev team isn’t aware of how this will affect a weaker class in PvP, or isn’t concerned.

I would really like to be able to play a Magsorc in competitve PvP. But I guess, since I don’t want to play a lightning spamming Zoo Sorc, that option just got eliminated.

katorga

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Are people still trying to argue that measly 165 additional damage per damage proc are somehow enough to make a build bursty or pressure the enemy with it? Come on, please be serious. Even if there are 10 proc sources per second, the additional damage is at best laughable.

I'm assuming you've never come across someone using Draugrkin or Dragon's effectively. These sets are very powerful in the right builds.

It also isn't just the damage on the tin - the damage added from Draugrkin and Dragon's is affected by all modifiers, including crit, berserk, vulnerability, etc. The damage is added as base damage.

Oh man, during MYM I ran into a NB running that or something close, just melted me from range. Crushing spam into Merciless. No other offensive skills or ultimate. One of the few builds I've run into lately that made me go "WTH", I went back and died about 10 times trying to figure out how it worked.