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Changes To Lightning Staff??
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Channeled and AoE isn’t mutually exclusive. Runecarver is a channeled AoE ability. So why can’t Lightning Staff HA be the same?PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on July 11, 2023 2:59PM2 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?3 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
The current Tri-Focus also means that Empower and Heavy Attack sets are way stronger than intended on lightning heavies specifically. This is because of the flat damage values that are being added to every tick of the channel. If, for example, a set adds 4k damage to a heavy attack, that set adds 16k extra damage to lightning heavies (technically more because of the AoE nature). ZOS saw this as unbalanced and are thus changing the way Tri-Focus works because of the myriad of balance issues the current passive creates.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on July 11, 2023 3:20PM5 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
Because this is going to have a major impact in the situations where I actually use HA builds (non-optimised groups in 4 and 12 player content).
Edited by ApoAlaia on July 11, 2023 3:23PM5 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on July 11, 2023 3:25PM1 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
Edited by ApoAlaia on July 11, 2023 3:35PM3 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
I think the fallacy here is that you think this adjustment is only because of PVP. I think that the adjustment is likely just as they said it was, a means to normalize the effect of tri-focus to only apply to a fully charged heavy attack. On live now, Lightning heavy attacks technically do not follow that rule as the passive applies throughout the channel.
Secondarily, from a PVE perspective, I truly think they are trying to lower cleave damage, of which, tri-focus was adding a lot of damage to.3 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.3 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
With Warden you might get away with using Shalks, that would potentially make up for some of the loss, but with Sorc or any other class? Not really sure...
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.Edited by ApoAlaia on July 11, 2023 3:51PM5 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.2 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
With Warden you might get away with using Shalks, that would potentially make up for some of the loss, but with Sorc or any other class? Not really sure...
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
WoE or Hurricane are pretty much staples on 1 bar sorc build setups. Both will still be buffed by the arcane knowledge change too.1 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on July 11, 2023 3:57PM6 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.2 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
What? Im confused by what point you're even trying to make.
HA builds on live have infinite sustain, tons of survivability, and a lot of single target damage. That single target damage is also copied into cleave damage.
DPS builds are usually either single target or AoE. HA builds are both. This change puts HA builds on par by reducing their AoE effectiveness.
They will still have decent AoE cleave, as the final tick (the most damaging tick) will still be AoE.3 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭HmpfCameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
What? Im confused by what point you're even trying to make.
HA builds on live have infinite sustain, tons of survivability, and a lot of single target damage. That single target damage is also copied into cleave damage.
DPS builds are usually either single target or AoE. HA builds are both. This change puts HA builds on par by reducing their AoE effectiveness.
They will still have decent AoE cleave, as the final tick (the most damaging tick) will still be AoE.
I had misread your post.
Where you wrote:
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
I read that most of the damage from a HA build comes from AoE.
Also not all DPS builds are either/or, my Arcanist is both, and with burst on top, although that will probably change come next spring at the latest.
However it uses daggers and not a single HA so I guess that makes it... acceptable?Edited by ApoAlaia on July 11, 2023 4:18PM0 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.1 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.
It should be left with its high cleave damage, as these builds were already behind in single target damage.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna2 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Apparently, Delia did some testing on pts. Even with the vast majority of an Arcanist's damage coming from its channeled ability, lightning staves STILL fell behind dual wield. There was a smaller difference on live servers between the two weapons.
I ask again- who are these changes helping??Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna4 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.
It should be left with its high cleave damage, as these builds were already behind in single target damage.
This build(s) were overperforming as heck: tank resistances, 30k+ HP, fully ranged, almost fully AoE, easy rotation (and even high parses with no rotation at all, just by pressing a button).
That was discussed over and over again during the last PTS cycle for example and a lot of people hinted, that further changes will be made to bring this build in line. But the defenders of master sergeant broakenbrrrzzzz refused to listen, instead of this they attacked every critic as "gatekeeper", "elitist" and much worse namings while laughing at them.
Now you see what zos is thinking about the situation.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.3 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.
It should be left with its high cleave damage, as these builds were already behind in single target damage.
This build(s) were overperforming as heck: tank resistances, 30k+ HP, fully ranged, almost fully AoE, easy rotation (and even high parses with no rotation at all, just by pressing a button).
That was discussed over and over again during the last PTS cycle for example and a lot of people hinted, that further changes will be made to bring this build in line. But the defenders of master sergeant broakenbrrrzzzz refused to listen, instead of this they attacked every critic as "gatekeeper", "elitist" and much worse namings while laughing at them.
Now you see what zos is thinking about the situation.
I'm not interested in hearing more nerf advocates. Goodness knows enough forum goers are upset about easy playstyles. I just want to know what I've previously stated. Thank you.Edited by Suna_Ye_Sunnabe on July 11, 2023 5:45PMAngua Anyammis Ae Sunna3 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.
It should be left with its high cleave damage, as these builds were already behind in single target damage.
This build(s) were overperforming as heck: tank resistances, 30k+ HP, fully ranged, almost fully AoE, easy rotation (and even high parses with no rotation at all, just by pressing a button).
That was discussed over and over again during the last PTS cycle for example and a lot of people hinted, that further changes will be made to bring this build in line. But the defenders of master sergeant broakenbrrrzzzz refused to listen, instead of this they attacked every critic as "gatekeeper", "elitist" and much worse namings while laughing at them.
Now you see what zos is thinking about the situation.
I'm not interested in hearing more nerf advocates. Goodness knows enough forum goers are upset about easy playstyles. I just want to know what I've previously stated. Thank you.
These changes help ZOS by helping balance. As I've stated (in 3 comments on this post alone now) the current iteration of Tri-Focus causes a lot of headaches with balance. Anything that adjusts Heavy Attack damage is way more powerful than intended with a lightning staff.
This change will allow ZOS to add more Heavy Attack enhancing sets, buffs, and abilities without having to deal with the numerous interactions they have with (the current) Tri Focus.Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on July 11, 2023 5:51PM4 -
Syiccal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Apparently, Delia did some testing on pts. Even with the vast majority of an Arcanist's damage coming from its channeled ability, lightning staves STILL fell behind dual wield. There was a smaller difference on live servers between the two weapons.
I ask again- who are these changes helping??
Because on pts lightning staff doesn't buff Flail any more1 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.
It should be left with its high cleave damage, as these builds were already behind in single target damage.
This build(s) were overperforming as heck: tank resistances, 30k+ HP, fully ranged, almost fully AoE, easy rotation (and even high parses with no rotation at all, just by pressing a button).
That was discussed over and over again during the last PTS cycle for example and a lot of people hinted, that further changes will be made to bring this build in line. But the defenders of master sergeant broakenbrrrzzzz refused to listen, instead of this they attacked every critic as "gatekeeper", "elitist" and much worse namings while laughing at them.
Now you see what zos is thinking about the situation.
I'm not interested in hearing more nerf advocates. Goodness knows enough forum goers are upset about easy playstyles. I just want to know what I've previously stated. Thank you.
These changes help ZOS by helping balance. As I've stated (in 3 comments on this post alone now) the current iteration of Tri-Focus causes a lot of headaches with balance. Anything that adjusts Heavy Attack damage is way more powerful than intended with a lightning staff.
This change will allow ZOS to add more Heavy Attack enhancing sets, buffs, and abilities without having to deal with the numerous interactions they have with (the current) Tri Focus.
No offense, but I'll believe that when I see it.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna3 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.
It should be left with its high cleave damage, as these builds were already behind in single target damage.
This build(s) were overperforming as heck: tank resistances, 30k+ HP, fully ranged, almost fully AoE, easy rotation (and even high parses with no rotation at all, just by pressing a button).
That was discussed over and over again during the last PTS cycle for example and a lot of people hinted, that further changes will be made to bring this build in line. But the defenders of master sergeant broakenbrrrzzzz refused to listen, instead of this they attacked every critic as "gatekeeper", "elitist" and much worse namings while laughing at them.
Now you see what zos is thinking about the situation.
I'm not interested in hearing more nerf advocates. Goodness knows enough forum goers are upset about easy playstyles. I just want to know what I've previously stated. Thank you.
These changes help ZOS by helping balance. As I've stated (in 3 comments on this post alone now) the current iteration of Tri-Focus causes a lot of headaches with balance. Anything that adjusts Heavy Attack damage is way more powerful than intended with a lightning staff.
This change will allow ZOS to add more Heavy Attack enhancing sets, buffs, and abilities without having to deal with the numerous interactions they have with (the current) Tri Focus.
No offense, but I'll believe that when I see it.
Same.
At this point this is just wild speculation that they might do anything of the sort.
I guess anything is possible, including flying mounts and underwater exploration.3 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.
It should be left with its high cleave damage, as these builds were already behind in single target damage.
This build(s) were overperforming as heck: tank resistances, 30k+ HP, fully ranged, almost fully AoE, easy rotation (and even high parses with no rotation at all, just by pressing a button).
That was discussed over and over again during the last PTS cycle for example and a lot of people hinted, that further changes will be made to bring this build in line. But the defenders of master sergeant broakenbrrrzzzz refused to listen, instead of this they attacked every critic as "gatekeeper", "elitist" and much worse namings while laughing at them.
Now you see what zos is thinking about the situation.
I'm not interested in hearing more nerf advocates. Goodness knows enough forum goers are upset about easy playstyles. I just want to know what I've previously stated. Thank you.
These changes help ZOS by helping balance. As I've stated (in 3 comments on this post alone now) the current iteration of Tri-Focus causes a lot of headaches with balance. Anything that adjusts Heavy Attack damage is way more powerful than intended with a lightning staff.
This change will allow ZOS to add more Heavy Attack enhancing sets, buffs, and abilities without having to deal with the numerous interactions they have with (the current) Tri Focus.
No offense, but I'll believe that when I see it.
Same.
At this point this is just wild speculation that they might do anything of the sort.
I guess anything is possible, including flying mounts and underwater exploration.
I'll just keep hoping to see changes in the notes that steer away from ruining destro staves.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna3 -
Wolf_Eye✭✭✭✭✭
✭Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »
But, to the main point... are lightning staff heavy attacks considered "abilities"? Will they work with the new changes? That would at least slightly ease me. Only slightly.
I don't think heavy attacks are considered abilities. So this buff wouldn't do anything to boost lightning staff HA damage. In short, the staff passive was nerfed as to be useless.
Lightning heavy attacks ARE considered channeled abilities. They're buffed by anything else in the game that buffs channels.
I am really, really confused.
I was operating under the impression that the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack was 'flagged' as AoE damage?
This is why Deadly wasn't all that great with HA builds, because it didn't buff the last tick.
Furthermore the change to the lightning staff passive seems nonsensical? It buffs channelled/DoT attacks but not AoE attacks so it doesn't buff the final tick?
Can someone shed some light on this?
The final tick of a Lightning Heavy is direct damage, AoE. The damage over time portion is considered a channel DoT. On live, that portion is also AoE, although the PTS version lacks AoE on the channel portion.
Additionally, all heavy attacks cause your character to enter a "channel" state while charging them - this means that all heavy attacks will proc certain effects such as the High Elf channel damage reduction. This does NOT mean that all heavy attacks count as "channeled damage", only the DoT portion of lightning heavies do.
The change will be a buff to lightning HA builds in single target scenarios, and a nerf to lightning HA builds in AOE scenarios. This change was most likely done because the current iteration of Tri-Focus allows for some grossly overtuned exploits of certain damage modifiers that bypass Battle Spirit.
Thank you for the breakdown, much appreciated.
However, what does battle spirit have to do with anything? All I do in Cyro is fix walls, and in IC if you see me at all I have failed miserably.
Surely if is a problem with battle spirit it should be fixed... in battle spirit?
The problem wasn't with Battle Spirit, the problem was with Tri-Focus. The current version of Tri-Focus allows things like Empower and Heavy Attack Sets that are explicity not supposed to work on players to indirectly increase damage against players to absurd levels. In addition, the damage applied through Tri-Focus completely ignored Battle Spirit. This means that the damage is not only including things that are not supposed to affect players, but that damage also wasn't being halved by Battle Spirit.
The result on live is being able to kill players well before they can react with undodgeable, unblockable, AoE DoT ticks of 25k+ damage.
So wouldn't just remove tri-focus from PvP like they did with certain HA sets have been a better solution than 'now no one has cleave, deal with it'?
The problem isn't limited to Battle Spirit though. The current iteration of tri focus means that anything that modifies heavy attack damage is going to be far stronger with a lightning staff then any other weapon. In essence, these sets aren't "Heavy Attack" sets, they're "Lightning Staff" sets. ZOS doesn't want these sets to be skewed heavily towards lightning staves, so they tweaked the passive causing the disparity.
IMO, they could've kept Tri-Focus and just prevented the AOE damage from being affected by modifiers, but there's no way of knowing if something like that is even possible within the game's code.
Or they could, once and for all, balance things separately because by their own admittance they had to make another change this patch due to the difficulty of balancing both PvE and PvP.
Just make them completely separate entities and PvP players won't be affected by (or even have to interact with at all, I'm sure running Fang's Lair to farm Caluurion back when Caluurion was a thing for instance wasn't really particularly entertaining for PvP players) PvE and viceversa.
It would allow them to 'lower the entry fee' (so to speak) for PvP too, and it would be more akin to other PvP experiences where you know, you pick up a rifle from the floor and start shooting rather than 'oh, so you'd like to PvP? good, here are 100+ hours of totally unrelated and mostly PvE oriented activities for you to clear first, off you go, chop chop...'
As I said though, the change was due to both PvE and PvP. Tri-Focus in the current form greatly skews any Heavy Attack enhancing buff towards lightning staves because of the comparative power difference. This change eliminates that and levels out Lightning Staff heavies to the rest of the weapons.
Except in HA builds the staff is pretty much all you have, specially if you are playing sorc, because sorc without pets is... inconceivable.
So by 'bringing it on par with other weapons', if that indeed was the goal, you are leaving players worse off.
This wasn't 'tuning down something that was overtuned', this change pretty much deleted the cleave potential and in a one-bar build with two pets there is not a lot of room to fit a cleave ability that works with a HA build.
If that ability even exists.
Therefore here we are again, going from 'overtuned' to 'zero'.
The cleave of Heavy Attack builds was overtuned though. Almost all of the damage in a lightning Heavy build on live is AoE.
So by your own logic, if most of the damage is from AoE, and you effectively reduce the AoE damage to 'negligible', what does it leave you with?
It leaves you with a very easy to play build with a lot of single target damage, tons of survivability, infinite sustain, and a modest amount of cleave.
HA builds on live are good in pretty much every area. Reducing their aoe damage still leaves them with literally everything else.
Then AoE could not be the source of 'most of the damage'; it cannot be simultaneously 'the source of most of the damage' yet its removal leave you with 'most of the damage'.
The statement, at least to me, is nonsensical.
Sure, that's possible. With U39 ancient knowledge is buffing DoT and channeled attacks, instead of AoE, leaving lightning HA with approximately the same single target dmg as before. Maybe a bit higher, but that has yet to be tested.
It should be left with its high cleave damage, as these builds were already behind in single target damage.
This build(s) were overperforming as heck: tank resistances, 30k+ HP, fully ranged, almost fully AoE, easy rotation (and even high parses with no rotation at all, just by pressing a button).
That was discussed over and over again during the last PTS cycle for example and a lot of people hinted, that further changes will be made to bring this build in line. But the defenders of master sergeant broakenbrrrzzzz refused to listen, instead of this they attacked every critic as "gatekeeper", "elitist" and much worse namings while laughing at them.
Now you see what zos is thinking about the situation.
I'm not interested in hearing more nerf advocates. Goodness knows enough forum goers are upset about easy playstyles. I just want to know what I've previously stated. Thank you.
These changes help ZOS by helping balance. As I've stated (in 3 comments on this post alone now) the current iteration of Tri-Focus causes a lot of headaches with balance. Anything that adjusts Heavy Attack damage is way more powerful than intended with a lightning staff.
This change will allow ZOS to add more Heavy Attack enhancing sets, buffs, and abilities without having to deal with the numerous interactions they have with (the current) Tri Focus.
No offense, but I'll believe that when I see it.
Same.
At this point this is just wild speculation that they might do anything of the sort.
I guess anything is possible, including flying mounts and underwater exploration.
I'll just keep hoping to see changes in the notes that steer away from ruining destro staves.
I really want them to re-visit the staff active skills to better account for the new passive calculation. So that stuff like pulsar and clench don't end up underperforming because they seemed to have been created with the passives in mind.0