Pack Leader Nerf

Panderbander

In what world did this make any sense? Werewolves already had no snare removal and an incredibly unreliable gap closer, but now we can't even rely on our one and only method of soft control in the direwolf snare? Why remove this with nothing to make up for the loss of utility?

Last update we lost our unique light and heavy attack range by it being given to everyone, now we're losing our only form of soft CC. No recompense for a wildly underperforming spec (winner of the Nefas worst skill line in the game award).

IncultaWolf

Werewolf is a complete joke now, I'm still waiting for the day they get brought back to a playable state. Several eso content creators have called out how bad and unfun they are to play, adding absolutely nothing to a group comp. I'm having fun on my nightblade though, being able to one shot people with incap + assassins will and being tankier than werewolf. Very balanced

Erickson9610

I can't believe that the only thing Werewolf got this PTS week was a nerf. There have been numerous posts made in the past couple of weeks addressing the concerns that players have about Werewolf, and there are many long-standing bugs with Werewolf that were reported, yet there's no mention of those anywhere.

I really was expecting some good changes and bug fixes to be made on an update like this.

Tommy_The_Gun

They were wolves at some point, but now ? Well...

React

The snare was an undocumented, unintended NPC snare attached to the re used NPC model of the wolves from that morph of the ult, correct? Just like the snare that blastbones used to have, which was a NPC effect from the re used skeleton model and which was later fixed?

If so, sounds like this was a quality bugfix.

Panderbander

React wrote: »

The snare was an undocumented, unintended NPC snare attached to the re used NPC model of the wolves from that morph of the ult, correct? Just like the snare that blastbones used to have, which was a NPC effect from the re used skeleton model and which was later fixed?

If so, sounds like this was a quality bugfix.

You're missing the point. This was not labeled as "fixed a bug where...", this was just a removal of a known and utilitized utility werewolf previously had with the direwolves.

EDIT: I found the patch it was reintroduced. In Patch 5.1.5 direwolves were reworked and among the changes was the following:

Panderbander

In case it isn't clear: This change was not a "bugfix". This was a direct nerf.

Alchimiste1

This change is based and cool

Panderbander

Just gonna leave this here.

Nefas Worst Skill Line

React

I wonder, does this NPC snare also bypass snare immunities and purges like every other NPC snare in the game does?

A deserved change, in any case. Glad they're removing unnecessary and unfun mechanics like NPCs snaring you.

Erickson9610

Werewolf should have that snare ability returned to them in some capacity. What if the snare was applied from Carnage? Werewolves would be able to gap close with Pounce, and then snare their enemy with Carnage before they run away.

That would give the other morphs of Werewolf access to the snare that only Pack Leader could utilize previously.

Panderbander

React wrote: »

I wonder, does this NPC snare also bypass snare immunities and purges like every other NPC snare in the game does?

A deserved change, in any case. Glad they're removing unnecessary and unfun mechanics like NPCs snaring you.

It's. Not. An. Npc. Snare.

This is a snare attached to a single morph of an ability. It is purgeable, does not stack with other snares, and the source has no control over when or how it's applied. Further the snare is a measly 30% for 4 seconds applied up to once every 10 seconds.

React

Panderbander wrote: »

React wrote: »

I wonder, does this NPC snare also bypass snare immunities and purges like every other NPC snare in the game does?

A deserved change, in any case. Glad they're removing unnecessary and unfun mechanics like NPCs snaring you.

It's. Not. An. Npc. Snare.

This is a snare attached to a single morph of an ability. It is purgeable, does not stack with other snares, and the source has no control over when or how it's applied. Further the snare is a measly 30% for 4 seconds applied up to once every 10 seconds.

Well it's a snare applied by an NPC, so I'd personally call it an "NPC snare".

Did you test if it's purgeable? I ask because I'm curious. The vast majority of snares in the game applied by NPCs are either

1) unpurgeable by snare purge skills
2) can be applied to snare immune targets
3) stack with player snares, resulting in absurd snare values

Or some combination of the above.

Also, there are two wolf summons on the ult, no? So that "measly 30% for 4s every 10s" is actually potentially an 80% uptime snare that is free & autonomous.

IncultaWolf

I think the devs need to acknowledge that pretty much everyone that has tried out playing werewolf, feels dissatisfied and underwhelmed by the toolkit. Every single patch since Greymoor they have been slowly powercrept more and more. A complete rework may even be needed at this point to make them relevant again in all content. Like I brought up earlier in the thread, several big content creators have discussed all the issues it currently has, so the playerbase at large understands that it's not good, at anything other than roleplaying.

Panderbander

React wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

React wrote: »

I wonder, does this NPC snare also bypass snare immunities and purges like every other NPC snare in the game does?

A deserved change, in any case. Glad they're removing unnecessary and unfun mechanics like NPCs snaring you.

It's. Not. An. Npc. Snare.

This is a snare attached to a single morph of an ability. It is purgeable, does not stack with other snares, and the source has no control over when or how it's applied. Further the snare is a measly 30% for 4 seconds applied up to once every 10 seconds.

Well it's a snare applied by an NPC, so I'd personally call it an "NPC snare".

Did you test if it's purgeable? I ask because I'm curious. The vast majority of snares in the game applied by NPCs are either

1) unpurgeable by snare purge skills
2) can be applied to snare immune targets 3) stack with player snares, resulting in absurd snare values

Or some combination of the above.

Also, there are two wolf summons on the ult, no? So that "measly 30% for 4s every 10s" is actually potentially an 80% uptime snare that is free & autonomous.

That is atrocious logic on the part of "an NPC cast it so it's an NPC snare". It's a function of a specific ability, not a debuff caused by any NPC dealing damage from behind (meaning: the NPC snare)

Yes, I have tested it. I test werewolf stuff extensively. Unlike most players, I actually know what I'm talking about when it comes to the werewolf playstyle, its abilities, its weaknesses, its strengths, and its play. I can point out every single known bug affecting the playstyle right now.

This snare is purgeable, easily avoided, does not stack with other snares, and is unreliable under the best circumstances (play werewolf and watch how often your wolves are off attacking nothing of import). If you want a truly problematic autonomous snare, look no further than DKs and their snare they get for dealing direct damage with an Ardent Flame ability. Easy 100% uptime for simply attacking like normal.

One of these specs is over performing. I'll let you figure out which one is.

Kendaric

IncultaWolf wrote: »

so the playerbase at large understands that it's not good, at anything other than roleplaying.

Even for roleplaying they aren't really good due the timer on the transformation...

But on topic:

This is a nerf I can't understand at all. Werewolves are widely regarded as the weakest option for players, was it really necessary to nerf them even further?

Panderbander

@ZOS_Kevin any chance we can get some insight into why this change is being implemented?

IncultaWolf

Panderbander wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin any chance we can get some insight into why this change is being implemented?

Yeah it's a pretty odd decision that they just removed that without any explanation at all, it wouldn't be "as" bad if they gave a reasoning behind it

WoppaBoem

I always hated it glad its gone. By all means gives ww a snair on an actual skill but passively on those annoying wolfs it was terrible its good quality of life change

Weckless

Werewolf beat soul magic? Lol

Panderbander

WoppaBoem wrote: »

I always hated it glad its gone. By all means gives ww a snair on an actual skill but passively on those annoying wolfs it was terrible its good quality of life change

I'm down for giving an activated snare. Heck, I'd be fine with getting rid of the direwolves altogether if it meant getting something that wasn't a worthless pet

Jaraal

Man, I sure miss Wolfhunter. Last time that werewolves were actually relevant.

Why ZOS is stacking nerf upon nerf on this class over time with zero explanation is rather puzzling. And still no weapon passives or purges that everyone else has access to.

IncultaWolf

Jaraal wrote: »

Man, I sure miss Wolfhunter. Last time that werewolves were actually relevant.

Why ZOS is stacking nerf upon nerf on this class over time with zero explanation is rather puzzling. And still no weapon passives or purges that everyone else has access to.

the missing weapon passives in werewolf form is probably a bug that's been present for years, a very few select passives currently work in form, and the ones that don't, well we recently discovered a way to make them work, it's just a hassle

Erickson9610

Week 3 of the PTS is coming up soon. I hope something is done about Werewolf and the state it's in.

Necrotech_Master

its been a little while since i used the pack leader, it definitely makes maintaining ww uptime easier for sure

the ww build i have been experimenting with is an oakensoul ww, using the berserker morph of the ult (because that morph gets an aoe HA, which actually pairs nicely with oakensoul, even without the rest of the gear being focused on HA i can still hit 40k dmg HA crits that are aoe around the target)

primarily run this build in IC for sewer farming lol

Panderbander

Hey @ZOS_Kevin still waiting on an explanation of why the dev team felt that taking away werewolf's only form of soft control was warranted and necessary.