Nerf Vate staff, Masters Dual wield, Relequen, Zaan, Maarselok..

Overamera

StaticWave wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I remember making a thread about Relequen being broken and got so much backlash for it. Guess I was right all along

TBF, Relequen is actually broken and needs fixing, not balancing, due to it double ticking.

Yea, and I made a thread about that, and I got a bunch of back lash telling me that I needed to l2p. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/635392/arms-of-relequen-is-the-new-savage-ww-and-needs-to-be-nerfed#latest

"I told you so" is very applicable here

Same problem here 😂. apparently I need to l2p aswell. I just want a fix to this meta. I obviously dont mean for them to nerf everything. Rele does deserva a nerf tho.

SandandStars

I understand that people don’t want their favorite sets nerfed, but the increasingly ridiculous number/proportion of people using the Masters DW/Vateshran set up is 100% killing diversity in PVP combat. That is not debatable.

Personally, I get no satisfaction from gear sets (or a class) that is significantly overpowered. Masters DW exemplifies this category.

ShuttlePK

Unironically, Zaan is way too strong in PVP a simple tune of it being blockable would fix alot of the issues that set has atleast in PVP, it wouldn't completely nuke it in PVE if this change was to go ahead and would work for both worlds.




This is just two screenshots from recent duels, (Zaan is completely overperforming in scenarios similar to duels it is outshined in larger fights where that one beam won't help you compared to Balorgh for example) but it still is completely overperforming in areas where it should be atleast toned down, almost everyone is using Zaan in 1v1 scenarios, the simple blocking fix would add counterplay to it in PVP and not change it in PVE

Relequen is the new Savage WW in the game which was nerfed yet Relequen is just the same and even double ticking so it can be better than Savage WW fixing it is harder than fixing Savage WW which can just use a straight up nerf without considering PVE, but Relequen is way too global to be fixed that easily, I have nothing in mind to fix it myself and the devs are probably just as stumped.

Master DW is just way too appealing, when Arcanist first released and people were looking at the spammable options, tentacle wasn't doing enough for the cost and beam wasn't very good since the hitreg and in general it's easily avoided anything beamed is just LOS loved, instantly people looked at Master DW it is way too appealing again don't know how it can be nerfed but it is obvious these things are overtuned.

As for Vate Staff it's fine on its own, you can laugh at a Vate staff until its in tandem with Master DW, some other proc set like Way of the Fire and Zaan. But the point of the post is mostly correct, however the way to nerf them is pretty hard considering how global some are but Master DW can just get a slight damage tune as it's not as global as Relequen but we'll see what ZoS does

ShuttlePK

Janni wrote: »

While you're at it better also nerf: master 2hand cause everyone is using it, bloodspawn cause everyone is using it, earthgore cause everyone is using it, selene's cause everyone is using it, balorgh cause everyone is using it, vicious death cause everyone is using it. way of fire cause everyone is using it, ashen grip cause everyone is using it, hist sap cause everyone is using it, clever alchemist cause everyone is using it, order's wrath cause everyone is using it, forest wraith cause everyone is using it, deadric trickery cause everyone is using it, trainee cause everyone is using it, night mother's gaze cause everyone is using it, wretched vitality cause everyone is using it, agility cause everyone is using it, rallying cry cause everyone is using it, mara's balm cause everyone is using it (ok, joke's aside this one actually did need the previous nerf), plague doctor cause everyone is using it, winter's respite cause everyone is using it, poisonous serpent cause everyone is using it, scagvenging demise cause everyone is using it, blood drinker cause everyone is using it, deadly strike cause everyone is using it, draugrkin's grip cause everyone is using it, wild hunt cause everyone is using it, and so so many more sets that every single person in cyrodiil are all wearing all at the same time because they are all too op.

Difference between Zaan and Trickery for example, but the main problem with Zaan is just that it's unblockable; I think making it blockable which still punishes the people who aren't so good at PVP who just permablock and panic and hope they will live as their stamina is drained more with the Zaan proc would fix it as for a good player who can microblock it etcetc, it wouldn't do anything to harm PVP nor PVE and would balance the set in a simple way

PhoenixGrey

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stop nerfing damage. Buff underperforming damage stuff.

Yes. We have a steady stream of posts with people complaining about the tanky meta, and at the same time we have nonstop posts with people calling for nerfs of the few effective builds.

We need more of these dynamic damage builds, not fewer.

We are talking about nerfing AFK proc sets which need to be deleted from the game and not just nerfed imo. Ever occurred to you that people build tanky because of all this free damage flying around ?

Ending tank meta is a super easy with just buffing the main burst skill from each class and capping max health while deleting all these free damage proc sets

I actually think this is one of the best ideas I have come across in ages: I'm baffled that I have not reached that conclusion myself. If AFK damage (love this label!!) was not so significant people would be less inclined to run tanky builds as their damage would be lacklustre

In a non AFK PVP environment decent PVP'ers who know how to time their skills and keep their defenses up will definitely shine and outplay everyone else in the game. And they will not build tanky because they are good with their class skills. This is exactly how the game was until after the Elyswyr patch

Right now there is no difference between a day 1 sorc who wears AFK sets like Vate staff/ Marselook/ Masters DW and a veteran sorc who times frags + curse + ele weapon and fury. One sorc just needs to wear these sets and another needs to actually time 4 skills to get a kill. The AFK sorc will definitely win with zero PVP experience

I am pretty sure, 90% of the PVP'ers in this game don't even know what their class skills do because they never needed to. You can check out posts on the NB thread which discusses shade and cloak. Even the NB mains have no idea how to play their class.

I wish ZOS actually made players play their game

Rhaegar75

is 'way of Fire' as bad as the other sets listed here: i don't see it a lot in my death recap.....no way near as often as Master DW (grossly OP)

In my last BG I fought someone with Zaan, way of fire, Vate and Master DW

karthrag_inak

Khajiit thinks that all the pvpers should just do 1 hp of damage to each other, no matter what they are wearing.

Kolzki

Stopping relequen from double ticking would delete it from PVE. An easy fix would be to make it apply to monsters only. I have a PVP rele setup and have no problem trashing the gear to run another PVP set. Leave it alone for PVE.

katorga

Use what is best in game at any given time.

Currently, you either use them or stay out of melee range. Either works.

LittlePinkDot

ShuttlePK wrote: »

Unironically, Zaan is way too strong in PVP a simple tune of it being blockable would fix alot of the issues that set has atleast in PVP, it wouldn't completely nuke it in PVE if this change was to go ahead and would work for both worlds.




This is just two screenshots from recent duels, (Zaan is completely overperforming in scenarios similar to duels it is outshined in larger fights where that one beam won't help you compared to Balorgh for example) but it still is completely overperforming in areas where it should be atleast toned down, almost everyone is using Zaan in 1v1 scenarios, the simple blocking fix would add counterplay to it in PVP and not change it in PVE

Relequen is the new Savage WW in the game which was nerfed yet Relequen is just the same and even double ticking so it can be better than Savage WW fixing it is harder than fixing Savage WW which can just use a straight up nerf without considering PVE, but Relequen is way too global to be fixed that easily, I have nothing in mind to fix it myself and the devs are probably just as stumped.

Master DW is just way too appealing, when Arcanist first released and people were looking at the spammable options, tentacle wasn't doing enough for the cost and beam wasn't very good since the hitreg and in general it's easily avoided anything beamed is just LOS loved, instantly people looked at Master DW it is way too appealing again don't know how it can be nerfed but it is obvious these things are overtuned.

As for Vate Staff it's fine on its own, you can laugh at a Vate staff until its in tandem with Master DW, some other proc set like Way of the Fire and Zaan. But the point of the post is mostly correct, however the way to nerf them is pretty hard considering how global some are but Master DW can just get a slight damage tune as it's not as global as Relequen but we'll see what ZoS does

I've still never seen Zaan proc. Not when I wear it, and not on my death recaps.
Its chance to proc needs a big buff, even if they have to lower the damage.

PhoenixGrey

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

is 'way of Fire' as bad as the other sets listed here: i don't see it a lot in my death recap.....no way near as often as Master DW (grossly OP)

In my last BG I fought someone with Zaan, way of fire, Vate and Master DW

The set is bugged and ticks twice

SandandStars

I try to avoid cynicism, but selling subscriptions is what drives decisions about gear balance.

Given this, we should expect that there will always be over powered, unbalanced gear and classes to attract new or less skilled players.

Like many of you, I enjoy developing my skills to be competitive in pvp, and don’t use “AFK” gear that does this for me.

And when I go up against a decently skilled player running DW/Vatesh on a DK, on my Magsorc or Magden, they will eventually 1v1 almost every time, regardless of me timing skills/rolls well, and landing 3 or 4 skills to their 1.

I think OP gear/classes are intentionally designed for the game, and will be obviously apparent for its duration. I just have to accept that getting beat by meta chasers with less skill is part of the experience.

StaticWave

Overamera wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I remember making a thread about Relequen being broken and got so much backlash for it. Guess I was right all along

TBF, Relequen is actually broken and needs fixing, not balancing, due to it double ticking.

Yea, and I made a thread about that, and I got a bunch of back lash telling me that I needed to l2p. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/635392/arms-of-relequen-is-the-new-savage-ww-and-needs-to-be-nerfed#latest

"I told you so" is very applicable here

Same problem here 😂. apparently I need to l2p aswell. I just want a fix to this meta. I obviously dont mean for them to nerf everything. Rele does deserva a nerf tho.

Yea, it's just hilarious to me when I said multiple times in that thread that the only reason people aren't using Relequen more in PvP is because the double proc wasn't well known. Some dude told me how to "counter" it and told me that dying to a PvE set is my problem, even when I provided plenty of evidence of the set clearly overperforming xD

I don't want to be toxic but the forums seriously needs a function where people who actively engage in discussions need to provide in-game evidence for their arguments.

Tonturri

One thing that always bamboozled me was that people could backbar alot of strong, skill-changing stuff and then just swap to a front bar and go ham while still getting the benefit. I can understand on certain sets, like if you complete a five piece using weapons on the back bar and it applies a debuff or something, obviously swapping to the front bar shouldn't remove that, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense - imo - to be able to get such extensive benefit with skill-changing weapons (aka the 1-piece-set bonuses that add extra effects to skills). It seems to really diminish the (I'm assuming) intent that the weapon be, y'know...Used with a particular skill. But then bamf, folks can just backbar it and then do whatever they want on the front bar while keeping the back bar benefit going.

maxjapank

Kolzki wrote: »

Stopping relequen from double ticking would delete it from PVE. An easy fix would be to make it apply to monsters only. I have a PVP rele setup and have no problem trashing the gear to run another PVP set. Leave it alone for PVE.

Is it supposed to be double ticking at all? If not, then it needs fixed.

Syiccal

Unfortunately I think the game is at a point where everyone is so tanky and healing so prevalent if you don't run sustained proc dmg of some kind the fights last ages or you just don't kill anyone

StarOfElyon

Overamera wrote: »

Please Zoz do something about this meta. This PvP event would have been so much more enjoyable if there wasn't a sorc with these procs sets around every corner.

Literally every good player uses these sets. 🤭

StarOfElyon

TLDR: procs are a problem in PVP.

Miracle19

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

These procs (maybe besides Zaan) are overperforming - however I wouldn't call for nerfs personally.

The reason these procs are overperforming is because in the current tanky meta, they're some of the best (and only) real sources of DoT pressure. When all DoTs in the game were cut in half with U35(36?) pressure became a lot harder to fit onto builds. Because DoT proc sets weren't adjusted alongside DoT abilities, these sets became some of the best (and easiest) ways to add pressure into your build.

Additionally, Elemental Susceptibility has been way too powerful ever since it received changes. Status effects fall into the same boat as DoT procs as they weren't nerfed alongside DoTs, so they remain one of the best ways to add pressure to a build. Elemental Susceptibility activates Vat staff but also greatly increases the power of Maarselok and synergizes very well with Master DW.

IMO, these sets don't need a nerf. What instead needs to happen is Ele Sus needs to be toned down, and other DoTs need to be brought back up so that builds can have pressure without being forced into these procs.

agreed, oblivions foe needs a huge buff

Necrotech_Master

Miracle19 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

These procs (maybe besides Zaan) are overperforming - however I wouldn't call for nerfs personally.

The reason these procs are overperforming is because in the current tanky meta, they're some of the best (and only) real sources of DoT pressure. When all DoTs in the game were cut in half with U35(36?) pressure became a lot harder to fit onto builds. Because DoT proc sets weren't adjusted alongside DoT abilities, these sets became some of the best (and easiest) ways to add pressure into your build.

Additionally, Elemental Susceptibility has been way too powerful ever since it received changes. Status effects fall into the same boat as DoT procs as they weren't nerfed alongside DoTs, so they remain one of the best ways to add pressure to a build. Elemental Susceptibility activates Vat staff but also greatly increases the power of Maarselok and synergizes very well with Master DW.

IMO, these sets don't need a nerf. What instead needs to happen is Ele Sus needs to be toned down, and other DoTs need to be brought back up so that builds can have pressure without being forced into these procs.

agreed, oblivions foe needs a huge buff

oblivions foe was actually somewhat good before the u35 dot nerfs, i actually used to use it with the blackrose destro lol

TechMaybeHic

I haven't been using these procs but I'm getting tired of having to LOS to cancel them out or need to cast even ER 2 or even 3 times at nearly 5k mag a pop to remove things that are free - < 3k to apply. Not to mention that while you do that, you're not applying any damage; but if you pressure them into healing, the sets are still doing damage for them.

If I don't see changes by the end of the PTS; I'm just going to use it all as well. Yay for build diversity

Jymmy

I'm getting so tired of dying to proc sorcs. They are every where. Even gankers don't do this much damage.

VinnyGambini

The most sad thing is, this build (rele/WoF, zaan/maarselok, masters DW, vateshran) work on every single class, and it's extremly easy and OP. So game basically has 1 build. These sets desperately need nerf. My suggestions:

Rele- fix double tick
WoF- reduce dmg by about 10%
zaan- decrease duration, and therefore dmg
Maarselok- increase cooldown
Masters DW- reduce bonus dmg from 1650 to 1250
Vateshran- reduce duration.

IcyDeadPeople

I can sympathize with your frustration about running into so many people running the exact same sets. If you go to duels in wayrest, I know it's like 90% of the duelers run vateshran destro staff with dual wield

But maybe buffing specific counters could be more interesting than nerfs. A small tweak to a certain rarely used set or ability could result in a fun way to counter the sets you are talking about. In the past, sets like shieldbreaker and knight slayer were very strong counters to builds with big shields and health bars. There are also some sets designed to counter block builds now. (not sure what to suggest for this, maybe one of the sets that cleanses negative effects? or anti-aoe set?)

CameraBeardThePirate

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I can sympathize with your frustration about running into so many people running the exact same sets. If you go to duels in wayrest, I know it's like 90% of the duelers run vateshran destro staff with dual wield

But maybe buffing specific counters could be more interesting than nerfs. Maybe a small tweak to a certain set or ability could result in a fun way to counter the sets you are talking about. In the past, sets like shieldbreaker and knight slayer were very strong counters to builds with big shields and health bars. There are also some sets designed to counter block builds now.

I wouldn't even buff the counters - just buff other DoTs/sources of pressure. These items are strong because when DoTs were axed in U35, none of the DoT procs received the same treatment. These sets are among the only ways to actually put out consistent pressure in today's tanky meta.

Rhaegar75

Jymmy wrote: »

I'm getting so tired of dying to proc sorcs. They are every where. Even gankers don't do this much damage.

yep, proc sorcs are a humongous pain - synergizing way too much with all the various procs.

Bashev

VinnyGambini wrote: »

The most sad thing is, this build (rele/WoF, zaan/maarselok, masters DW, vateshran) work on every single class, and it's extremly easy and OP. So game basically has 1 build. These sets desperately need nerf. My suggestions:

Rele- fix double tick
WoF- reduce dmg by about 10%
zaan- decrease duration, and therefore dmg
Maarselok- increase cooldown
Masters DW- reduce bonus dmg from 1650 to 1250
Vateshran- reduce duration.

WoF - whe myou deal direct damage so it does not work with dots
Masters DW - scale with weapon and spell damage and not a fixed amount

The rest looks like nice suggestions.

EmEm_Oh

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Stop nerfing damage. Buff underperforming damage stuff.

I would agree. ZOS should be balancing "upward", not reducing dmg/buffs on sets. Just continue in an upward motion, and most should be satisfied.

DrNukenstein

When you nerf the thing, it will not take long for them to find a new thing to complain about.

-A Caluurion's Legacy enthusiast

Turtle_Bot

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Jymmy wrote: »

I'm getting so tired of dying to proc sorcs. They are every where. Even gankers don't do this much damage.

yep, proc sorcs are a humongous pain - synergizing way too much with all the various procs.

hmmm, it's almost like sorcs need their class kit fixed so they have the option of actually running something that's not these proc builds, the same way DKs, NBs, Wardens and Arcanists can all choose to run a different set-up and still perform just fine.